When will Mudcat clean up its act?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 06:58 AM

Sean MC
I agree its disgusting.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 11:12 AM

Howard -- the exception to your scenarios is people who are surfing from the public library and don't have a computer at home. Probably not a lot of those visiting Mudcat, I know.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM

Mousethief, that had occurred to me but I doubted whether many people wanting to use an internet forum would rely on using a public PC - but I may be wrong.

Surely there is a way of getting individual sites unblocked if you can satisfy the library authorities that it is legitimate?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:29 PM

I've said it many times before...

The Mudcat Café is the best Café because the "coffee" is free and and so is the "speech"... thanks to Max. His dedication to free speech with only one simple rule has made this community what it is. And I, frankly, am darn happy that he has done so.

Fact is, if Max did not do so, far more people would leave than the odd (and I mean that BOTH ways) affronted visitor.

Here's your hat and coat and come again when you can't stay so long.

PS... if children are offened, you are a piss poor parent.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:41 PM

The "one simple rule" is a lot harder for some to follow than keeping certain words out of their vocabulary. The latter involves reigning in language and the former, reigning in their emotions such as outrage, scorn.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:55 PM

Sean Mc, Mudcat does have something for you

Here

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:56 PM

I am guilty of same, Jeri. But, only in response to (percieived) provocation. If I ever grow up and lose my Irish/French temper... oh, who am I kidding? Myself? I was brought up to never back down and to come big or stay home. I am a gnu, eh? >;-)

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 05:34 PM

Are we really discussing how Mudcat is run? Usually threads that do that, get shut down pronto!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 06:12 PM

We're only discussing the bylaws....vol.4, article 27, paragraph 3, sub-section 19, lines 3-17.

You HAVE read those, haven't you?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 07:55 PM

No censorship is required. Decency in behavior is suggested.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 09:58 PM

I think it is a courteous thing not to make thread titles seem vulgar or ribald unnecessarily, and not to use harsh terms where more precise ones will serve.

Not to say I don't occasionally resort to vulgarities in a fit of colloquial creativity. Sheet-fahr, boy, no question!


A

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:00 AM

So, ONE day, and for ONE day only, Sean Mc, opens a thread (this one), and it goes on, for another 161 posts, mine will make 162, and Sean is never heard from again!.......interesting. Sounds like a frantic and hysteric journey to the center of nothing!

GfS

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 04:38 AM

I suspect Sean Mc is an alias for an existing member. Why else would a thread which belongs in BS, have stayed in the music related section for so long?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 05:36 AM

Sounds like a frantic and hysteric journey to the center of nothing!

That's a beautiful description for it!! LOL!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: gnu
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 05:39 AM

I apopolgize for my "piss poor" choice of words in my 07 Aug 10 - 02:29 PM post. As pointed out to me by PM, there is a big difference between being "offended" and being "hurt".

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 05:52 AM

Well that's you fucked for being both hurt AND offended mate :)

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 09:47 AM

Dear GUEST,Guest from Sanity - PM
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:00 AM

So, ONE day, and for ONE day only, Sean Mc, opens a thread (this one), and it goes on, for another 161 posts, mine will make 162, and Sean is never heard from again!.......interesting. Sounds like a frantic and hysteric journey to the center of nothing!

GfS

I too pondered on how worked up folks got on this thread, while the originator & one other were barely heard from.... HOWEVER, it does point out one or more "hot buttons" that people around the world same in common. Mudcat - thanks to the worldwide web- has an international membership & audience. While cultural values may vary, people learn at a young age what is or is not appropriate in their situation. What they do not seem to be taught is to recognize that their values may differ significantly from others and that difference is not a "bad thing".

Our "disgusted" posters may only have been intending to stir up the pot... but it is never a bad thing to go back an revisit one's assumption/position and ensure ones self that it still makes as much sense as it did before. I applaud Max for his clear sighted commitment to an ideal that I happen to share, not because it adheres to some "party line", but because it seems the most logical and fair minded.   So, thank you, Max.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 10:39 AM

Well... If it hadn't been for the phantom Sean Mc, I would never have learnt that "tits" is banned from American radio. (It really is?) So some little purpose has been served by his entertaining jape.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 11:57 AM

'tits' is merely one of the words in the famous comedy routine by George Carlin..

"The seven dirty words are seven English-language words that comedian George Carlin first listed in 1972 in his monologue "Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television". At the time, the words were considered highly inappropriate and unsuitable for broadcast on the public airwaves in the United States, whether radio or television. As such, they were avoided in scripted material, and bleep-censored in the rare cases in which they were used; broadcast standards differ in different parts of the world, then and now, although most of the words on Carlin's original list remain taboo on American broadcast television as of 2010. The list was not an official enumeration of forbidden words, but rather was compiled by Carlin. Nonetheless, a radio broadcast featuring these words led to a Supreme Court decision that helped establish the extent to which the federal government could regulate speech on broadcast television and radio in the United States."

(from Wikipedia)



The problem in the US is that for a long while, much broadcasting was commercial, and sponsors were OH so very worried about offending the uptight 'Christian' audience. At one time, TV programs showed married couples using twin beds, with all sorts of silly rules about what was said and who could touch or kiss whom...and where. Many of these rules have been relaxed or ignored, but one still hears 'bleeping' of 'naughty' words on news programs and prime-time 'sponsored' shows.
   Some comedians make a point of using words they KNOW will be bleeped, and at least one has cute little images flashed over his mouth...presumably to keep lips-readers from being offended. *grin*

Yes, there IS still a lot of tiptoeing around certain subjects on American radio & TV, but stuff is creeping in, especially late at night, and it's really sad what gratuitous crap is being foisted on us as the boundaries are pushed by hucksters with no taste.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 12:05 PM

Yawn

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM

Peter K: "Well... If it hadn't been for the phantom Sean Mc, I would never have learnt that "tits" is banned from American radio..."

....But not from the silver screen!! ..Ahh, sweet mysteries of life. 'Udderly' amazing!

GfS

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Tootler
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 07:15 AM

Some years ago a member of a forum I used to belong to (I forget which now) spent a great deal of effort trying (unsuccessfully) to persuade AOL to unblock his website in the USA. It had been blocked because one page contained the word "tits" times. He was an ornithologist and the tits in question were members of a species of small bird widespread in the Northern Hemisphere - including N.America, though they are known by other names there.

More info on tits in Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 07:26 AM

name of the site is Mudcat. Note: mud is dirty hence dirty words perfectly acceptable.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 10:23 AM

You know.... I wonder if AOL and others bothered to block 'teats', which is the correct spelling of what they were trying to block.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 10:39 AM

I wonder, how does all this filthier-than-thou stuff fit in with the hysterical hullabaloo caused when I defended someone's right to call me a c**t without having their posts deleted? Excommunications were called for, cringing apologies demanded & I received some very colourful Pontifical Missives (to say the least) for the sort of thing that is chuckled over by fans of Catspaw49, many of whom, said Pontiff included, were in the forefront of the righteous outrage.

For those who missed this fascinating episode of Mudcat Folklore checkout the True Traditional Music thread which was split off by Papal Decree into the True Traditional Music-uncivilised annex.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: PHJim
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 11:52 AM

I do not like seeing bad language being used to slander another poster nor used for shock value, but I'd hate to see the removale of "bawdy songs and backroom ballads", to quote either Oscar Brand or Ed McCurdy. These are a part of the folk tradition and they belong on this site.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Andymac
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:34 PM

I think it's interesting that the original poster only re-appeared once, and then only to fan the dying embers back to life. I'm on the UK side of the pond but wasn't it an American president who said " I may not agree with what you say, but I will die to defend your right to say it"?

Anyone who wants "swear" words or purported profanity removed is, in my opinion, a prude who doesn't understand the tradition nor appreciate the vernacular and the way in which lnguage evolves.

There are streets in England known as Grape Lane; their origins came from being called Gropecunt Lane. According to Wikipedia, the name was first known from 1561 and it was in regular usage.

So, since I could look up freely on wikipedia, I also looked around a bit but there was no "Sean Mc" complaining that wikipedia should clean up its act..

I couldn't agree more with the comments from Max and Joe.


Andymac

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM

BillD, I was quite surprised last night while watching Mad Men in which the main character's alias was "Dick." The actors said it just fine, it wasn't bleeped out, BUT we had closed captioning on for a movie we'd watched the other night and lo and behold, for the hearing impaired the name "Dick" was shown as "D666." Each time, they had a bleeped word, they used the "666" with whatever designator they had. I wonder what the religious extremists make of that!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:44 PM

Wikianswers says: -

"Who said I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it?
In: Famous Quotations [Edit categories]

[Improve]

Though these words are regularly attributed to Voltaire, they were first used by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G Tallentyre in "The Friends of Voltaire" (1906), as a summation of Voltaire's beliefs on freedom of thought and expression.

Another possible source for the quote was proposed by Norbert Guterman, editor of "A Book of French Quotations," who noted a letter to M. le Riche (February 6, 1770) in which Voltaire is quoted as saying: "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" ("Monsieur l'abbé, je déteste ce que vous écrivez, mais je donnerai ma vie pour que vous puissiez continuer à écrire"). This remark, however, does not appear in the letter.


voltare
Voltaire is most often credited with the saying, but many believe that this is a widespread mistake, and that the quote was originally said by Ewelyn Beatrice Hall. There is no definite answer to this question."

I always thought it was Voltaire.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

I should point out that the French quoted does not translate to the English phrase usually used and Wikianswers translates it accurately (my French is at least good enough for that).

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:08 PM

It's still a BS thread though.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:15 PM

It grieves me Giok, but I agree.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:18 PM

666!! I'm SURE arcane forces are at work in the auto-captioning program!

(ummm...is there such a thing as anti-exorcism?)

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:25 PM

Jonh, Richard... perhaps it's staying above the line as a discussion of site policy for those who would not normally go below or guests who would not be interested in doing so?

Otherwise, yup.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Brian May
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:27 PM

I've literally just packed in the Acoustic Guitar Forum over 'blunt instrument' censorship.

God help you if you are a carpenter, you can't have a bastard file, even though it's been called that for 100s of years.

Can't say 'damn' either - apparently the Hollywood line 'Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn' would be cut as well.

I abhor that kind of sanctimonious, self-righteous, intolerant claptrap.

Bible thumping, conservative, middle America, really ought to put its own backyard in order before oppressing people using (correctly) their own language! Outrageous.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:16 PM

But we're not allowed to discuss site policy, as we have been told many many times before!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:34 PM

Gosh, better not discuss the offspring of Henry VIII either.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:41 PM

John... don't press the issue,hmmm? 'Site policy' also includes the right of 'management' to make judicious exceptions for special circumstances. The 'naughty word' issues takes some explaining.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM

The thing that trumps everything else is Max's having once said any thread he's posted to is not to be messed with. Of course, what he actually said was that nothing should be deleted from any thread he's posted to, but I think that means the whole thread as well as posts.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM

I was inclined to accept Steve Gardham's idea that this thread is a wind-up.
Surely we've lost enough of our traditional repertoire to the Mrs Grundy who would antiscepticise our folk songs to the stage where we sit around singing 'Ten Green Bottles' though, thinking about it, I used to know a pretty randy version of that one time.
"these songs have nothing to do with the folk tradition and have no place here."
Bollocks - if you'll excuse the expression (or if you won't). Our repertoire is full of bawdy, erotic, even obscene songs, and long may that be the case. Even our childrens repertoire has them, though the Opies once shamefully described the kids who sang them as "ogre children'.
We lost many of them thanks to some of the opinions expressed here, but we still have D'urfey's 'Pills to Purge Melancholy' and Farmer's 'Merry Songs and Ballads".
Many of the collectors bowed to Victorian hypocricy and either didn't take down the songs, or castrated them for publication, but many had the good sense to take them down an put them aside for a more enlightned age - nice to see Peter Buchan's 'Secret Songs of Silence' available at long last after a century and a half (two versions of it even).
This is one that managed to slip through the net; an example that sex is there to be celebrated, not to be ashamed of.
As MacColl wrote in is introduction to his annual stage show, The Festival of Fools, "Let fornication thrive".
Jim Carroll

TH'OWD CHAP CAME OWER T' BANK      
From the singing of Harold Slaeden, Openshaw, Manchester, Easter 1934
Recorded by Ewan MacColl and Joan Littlewood

Th' owd chap came ower t' bank bawling for his tea,        
Saw a pair o' mucky clogs where his owd clogs should be;
"Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see?
How come this pair o' mucky clogs where my owd clogs should be?"
"O, y'owd "bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
They're just a couple of pickle jars me owd mam sent to me.
"O, I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But girt hob nails on a pickle jar I've never seen before."

T'owd chap came ower t' bank bawling for his tea,
Saw a coat on back o' t' door where his owd coat should be;
"Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see?
How come this coat on back o' t' door where my owd coat should be?"
"O y'owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
It's just an owd pudding cloth me owd mam sent to me"
"O I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But buttons on a pudding cloth I've never seen before."

Th'owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea,
Saw a head on't pillow where his owd head should be.
"Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see?
How come this head on t' pillow where my owd head should be?"
"O, y'owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
That's just a girt big turnip me owd mam sent to me."
"O, I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But a girt big turnip full of teeth I've never seen before."

T'owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea,
Saw a pair of hairy cods where his owd cods should be.
"Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see?
How come this pair of hairy cods where my owd cods should be?"
"O, y'owd. bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
They're just a couple of garden spuds me owd mam sent to me."
"O, I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But garden spuds with hairs on I've never seen before."

Th' owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea,
Saw a great big standing prick where his owd prick should be.
"Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see ?
How come this great big standing prick where my owd prick should be?"
"O, y'owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
Its just a home grown carrot me owd mam sent to me."
"O, I've been ower hills and dales and many a grassy moor,
But a carrot digging a great big hoyle I've never seen before."

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:21 AM

Just found this a bit earlier in the thread.

"OP" is bog standard internetwebspeak. If people can't speak web, they should log out and watch TV."

If people can't speak web, they are usually well adjusted people. Nobody owns the web, nobody has to speak another language. The keyboard and ASCII character recognition means that normal English (or Swahili if it turns you on) is more than enough to be "allowed" to speak as you wish. Hopefully, in the same way as you actually speak.

And.. in the spirit of this thread;

What a stupid fucking statement, born of stupid fucking arrogance. Far more offensive than the Anglo Saxon adjectives I have just used, by any standard...

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:29 AM

Jim - great song - and one that surfaces all over the place. There are several American versions - one that I recall being "Cabbage Head". This version's all the better for being from Lancashire, though!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:33 AM

Jim - forgot to ask: is there a tune available for this somewhere?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:53 AM

Jim: "O, I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But girt hob nails on a pickle jar I've never seen before."

Surely that should be "clog irons"? Clogs were never hob-nailed, but fitted with u-shaped irons. At least in Yorkshire...bloody Lancastrians might have done it differently.

Pedantic Rob

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM

Will: the tune would be the same as "Seven Drunken Nights", surely? It's just a bowdlerised version of the above, after all.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:26 AM

Quite possibly, Rob - I've known quite a few tunes put to different versions of this song.

Any road, who wants bloody white rose monkeys chippin' in when th'organ grinders grinding. I'm talkin' to't oil can, not to't rag... :-)

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Betsy
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:41 PM

Joe, I bet you don't need all this shit . Well done to all you open minded adults who have posted .

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bugsy
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:00 PM

Reading this thread reminded me of a childrens Movie called "The Never Ending Story" The only difference being, the movie was mildly interesting.

Lets move on.

CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:02 PM

I remember posting to a similar thread about 4 or 5 years ago. I work as a teacher and often log into mudcat in free time at school. My school, like many public systems, particularly those made available to children, has a filter which not only stops me looking at threads with words or topics which might be deemed unsuitable for children it would stop me looking at Mudcat at all if these words are in the thread title.

There are no words which of themselves offend me. Offence always lies in usage and intention. Insistence on using words which will obviously exclude a chunk of the membership from the whole forum, never mind the particular discussion, when there are simple devices to get round the problem seems to me thoughtless and arrogant. But then again so often you see people in here whose sole aim seems to be to show how they are above us mear plebs.

If I type in c**t, bas***d f**k or fcuk you know what the words are and I am obviosly getting round a filter. This is not Bowdlerisation, the meaning and the intended words are clear. When I speak I say what I mean to say to get my meaning across. When I use a computer I type what gets my message across. I avoid typing words which will lead to machines filtering what I want to say as I have no superiotity issue towards those poor suckers who have to put up with such things.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:16 PM

well said, Mr. Wilson...