BS: The God Delusion 2010

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: John P
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 11:47 PM

Ron's on his hobby horse again. Ride away now, you're boring. We've all heard what you have to say about 90 times now.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 11:53 PM

Change the record, Ron..

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:14 AM

"'in the name of atheism'.   Wonderful sophism.   Are you by some chance a lawyer?"

Not a phrase you'd ever use then, Ron?

"By the way, people don't have to be tortured on killed in the name of atheism in order for their deaths to be chalked up to atheism."

Er no.. obviously not..

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:29 AM

Mom's family was wiped out for being jews *based on christian dogma* and not in some idealistic vacuum, sorry. Much as you'd like to believe that Hitler wasn't christian, he was. Yes, he tried to appeal to all; much of his rhetoric lacks direct reference to deity. But he was still christian, not atheist.

And no, you can't equate people being killed ONLY for their belief in a different deity with people being killed for behaving against "the state" just because that state is atheist. It *does* matter whether you're killed in the name of atheism or not. Otherwise you have to add all non-deity motivated crime to atheism. Son of Sam on one side, Ted Bundy on the other. Not fair at all.

And it occurred to me later that it IS rational to point and laugh at grownups who spout fairy tales as if they were history or biology. Maybe not polite, but rational.

Well, certainly not polite. Grant you that.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:46 AM

Was that WW2 Mrrzy? I'm so sorry.
Excellent post.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:03 AM

The Nazis did that thing with evolution theory that lots of other ignorant people do - they applied it, improperly, to fields of human discourse way beyond what Darwin applied it to. Natural selection operates within species, not between species. It doesn't operate in the market place or commerce for example, "survival of the fittest companies in this dog-eat-dog world." Acceptance of this woolly thinking helped to allow the Nazis to make their obscene justification for the Holocaust. It also allows ignorant people like Pete, who admits to not even have read Darwin, to make vile assertions such as "as far as i can see it has been a green light for untold atrocities.the jews among others were victims of the evolution embracing nazi." It wasn't evolution the Nazis embraced, not by a long chalk, but a deliberate perversion of it. It is also a lie that eugenics is the "bastard son of evolution." That is a quite unjustified slur on the theory. It implies that Darwinism is capable of spawning that horrid perversion. It is inherently not capable of that. It is only possible in the minds of people who want to pervert the theory and turn it on its head.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:24 AM

Who are only too willing to see any abuse of Christianity, for instance, as an unavoidable and integral part of religion.   An attitude-- fondly held by some of our cherished atheist Mudcatters-- which is just as much dangerous tripe as the Darwin-Holocaust theory.

Not that the dear atheists in question can ever be expected to see this--much less admit it.

The Darwin-Holcaust connection is made by people who misinterpret, either deliberately or ignorantly, Darwinism. Criticism of religion on the grounds that it is based on a delusion misinterprets nothing. You are making links where no links exist. Critics of religion challenge believers to show that they are rational. To demonstrate that we who believe that the delusion is there are wrong. That requires evidence for the existence of God. I can't see how asking perfectly proper questions like that is "dangerous." Irritating, annoying, uncomfortable, challenging, inflammatory to people with closed minds, etc., but "dangerous?" Maybe you don't think we should be asking questions at all. And it would serve your argument better if you were to avoid the pejorative "abuse" when you mean criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:30 AM

"to not even have read Darwin"

eek. "to not even having read Darwin"

And I can spell Holocaust too.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:37 AM

The worst situation of course being the confrontation and a sarcastic, bullying anti-theist. There is a creepy psycho-sexual vibe to such encounters.

So now we're sexual deviants as well! Nice one, Jacko. Don't forget to accuse us of eating babies while you're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:22 AM

It is not reasonable to say that people are more likely to commit a crime because they are Atheists nor followers of a God. If one looks at the dogma behind most beliefs, IMO, they stand more for good than bad.

However, there are many examples of peoples in history having done very bad things in history while claiming to represent an organized religion with a belief in a God (for example, crusades). Humans can (and do) take innocent writings and interpret them to suite their cause, good or bad. I also suspect there are people who had no beliefs in a God who did bad things.

But, does that logically prove that a personal belief in a God, or a non-belief is good or bad, or makes a good or bad person? Not to me. I submit there is no logical case to prove it true in either case.

People just do-good things and bad things, some happen to have a belief or a non-belief in a God. There are bad and good people in both camps, and I suspect they would be the same, even if they change sides (if I can call it that).

I am not a follower of any organized religion, because I see no need to do so. I have seen many do well and do bad. I have not determined whether there has been more good than bad. But, I suspect it would be pointless to engage in an undertaking to try and tally it up.

I do not see the point in the current attempt to tie really bad things to a belief, or non-belief.

IMO, it is a no win discussion, that will only piss off people and contribute to rude comments.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:52 AM

as to whether darwins theory could logically lead to eugenics as practised by the nazis i am not qualified to say.i did say it gave them the green light to do so.i am quite confidant that darwin never intended any such thing.but dont you get upset when your devotions are even hinted at as even indirectly accountable for attrocities?!.
yet when it comes to my God,disrespect[to put it mildly]is fair game!
i notice you claim that the nazis misused the theory, yet are not ,im sure using that same principle when attacking religion for its crimes,the scriptures in those cases being misused for evil purposes.hitler was certainly not a christian.nominal affiliation at best.i think ron has explained that very well and hope he continues on the same old "record" till he gets his question answered.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:16 PM

Yeah, long before I was born.

On the other hand, my dad was killed by islamic fundamentalist terrorists between the end of college classes and my graduation ceremony. I remember that.

And that was back in the early 80's, in the first embassy carbombing ever. You'd think with all the others, and the blown-up planes and assassinated university presidents and all that we would have learned something by now.

Sadly, even 9-11 didn't teach us anything, apparently. We, in this case, being the Americans as represented by our elected government.

Sigh.

But thank you. It was late Friday night...

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:13 PM

I am very sorry for your loss Mrrzy.
Your point of view has become much clearer.

If it is any consolation, I know some Muslims who are against fundamentalist terrorists, just as you are.

I know of Muslims who were killed for their version of Islam.

I know of Muslims who were killed for oil.

Dr Robert A. Pape has some interesting things to say about the roots of suicide bombings. That they are not religious by nature.

Here is a clip from his Wiki page.

Pape's Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism (2005) contradicts many widely held beliefs about suicide terrorism. Based on an analysis of every known case of suicide terrorism from 1980 to 2005 (315 attacks as part of 18 campaigns), he concludes that there is "little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world's religions... . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland" (p. 4). "The taproot of suicide terrorism is nationalism," he argues; it is "an extreme strategy for national liberation" (pp. 79–80). Pape's work examines groups as diverse as the Basque ETA to the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers. Pape also notably provides further evidence to a growing body of literature that finds that the majority of suicide terrorists do not come from impoverished or uneducated background, but rather have middle class origins and a significant level of education.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:44 PM

Mrrzy - I'm surprised you can even bear to read some of the stuff that's being spouted here. It must be painful, and you have my admiration for even bothering to contribute. I hope my own rantings have not offended you in any way.

Steve - thanks for the Darwin information, I'm ashamed to say I haven't actually read it either, only read about it. Maybe now I will..

Pete, Ron - I now realise I was wrong to dignify your posts with a response. Please, please take your poison elsewhere, preferably dark and quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:53 PM

Nothing said here has offended me. Some has surprised me, some has disappointed me, much has made me laugh.

Your last point is why I'm not bothering with the counter-thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:01 PM

Ah yes.. just seen the other thread.

'Get thee behind me, Santa.'

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:05 PM

Here are some direct quotes from Hitler's speeches (translated into English), containing his reaction to atheism:


Hitler often associated atheism with Germany's communist enemy. Hitler stated in a speech to the Stuttgart February 15, 1933:

"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany's fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany's entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years."

In a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933, Hitler stated:

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

In a radio address October 14, 1933 Hitler stated

"For eight months we have been waging a heroic battle against the Communist threat to our Volk, the decomposition of our culture, the subversion of our art, and the poisoning of our public morality. We have put an end to denial of God and abuse of religion. We owe Providence humble gratitude for not allowing us to lose our battle against the misery of unemployment and for the salvation of the German peasant."

In a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934 Hitler states:

"There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church, while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles."

During negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of April 26, 1933 Hitler argued that

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith."

*****

I have posted the above not as a comment for or against either religion or atheism, but strictly for the benefit of Ron Davies. ;-)

I might also mention that every soldier in the German Army wore a belt buckle with a slogan inscribed upon it. The slogan was "Gott Mitt Uns". It means "God is with us". Germany was a consciously Christian nation during the Nazi era, while simultaneously turning its leader into a virtual demigod and its ruling political party into a virtual church, and while also kindling a sort of strange mystical revival of the Nordic god traditions, AND while worshipping philosophies of the Superman as expounded by Nietsche, AND while worshipping what they called the "Aryan race", AND while promoting Catholicism in the conquered areas of the Reich. Hitler proudly imagined that he was defending Christendom against "godless" Communism.

YES.   People are entirely capable of simultaneously worshipping many different "gods" and even many different gods which in some regards contradict one another. They do it just by focusing on whichever one they want to at the moment and not thinking about the inconsistencies. That even happens within an organized religion like Christianity, which is itself rife with inconsistencies and has, like the Nazis, sometimes committed great crimes against humanity.

It is asinine to assert that the Nazis were an atheistic movement just because you don't like the Nazis. They were a movement full of unconscious hypocrisy, that's all, and such movements are really very common, but they're not always quite that dangerous. They took naturally to religious mysticism of many sorts, and they made much use of their alliance with the Catholic church and the public's fear of atheism, as espoused by Stalinist Russia at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:23 PM

"YES.   People are entirely capable of simultaneously worshipping many different "gods" and even many different gods which in some regards contradict one another. They do it just by focusing on whichever one they want to at the moment and not thinking about the inconsistencies. That even happens within an organized religion like Christianity, which is itself rife with inconsistencies and has, like the Nazis, sometimes committed great crimes against humanity".

Let's take reference to God an put in government in it's place (as I have done below) to see if the conclusion drawn holds true. IMO, they seem much the same.
Could it be that humans use organizations to do wrong? I submit that a belief in a God, nor a non belief, on their own, have little to do with the crimes against humanity?


YES.   People are entirely capable of simultaneously worshipping "many different forms of government" and even many different "forms of government" which in some regards contradict one another. They do it just by focusing on whichever one they want to at the moment and not thinking about the inconsistencies. That even happens within "an organized government, like democracy", which is itself rife with inconsistencies and has, like the Nazis, sometimes committed great crimes against humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:46 PM

If it is any consolation, I know some Muslims who are against fundamentalist terrorists, just as you are.

I have news for you. Muslims are very peace-loving people. Almost every Muslim on the planet is against fundamentalist terrorists, not just "some." You only have to look at the Middle East. The belligerence there comes almost entirely from Israel and the west. Iran is one of the most demonised nations on Earth. Tell me when Iran last mounted an invasion against its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:10 PM

Shaw, Shaw, Shaw... Oh P-Shaw...

I know all of that about Muslims. But I was talking about the Muslims that I know, and then only the ones who have shared their opinion on that issue.

That's why I said "some."

Does your lack of logic know no bounds?

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:19 PM

Quite, Jacko, but your clumsily-worded post suggested otherwise. And what has logic got to do with struggling to understand exceptionally-poor wording?

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:31 PM

The wording is plain enough.

I am not qualified to speak for all Muslims. It is puzzling that you are considering you are arguing that they are delusional in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:38 PM

I took the main argument to be that it was belief in God, and not 'they', which is/who are delusional. I still think there is a distinction between the two. One delusional belief doesn't mean someone is completely delusional or certifiable. Or as Shakespear put it, "One pork pie doth not a picnic make."

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 06:08 PM

Come on Smokey....
Who is kidding who here?

One who harbors a delusion as the center of one's life is not delusional?

Particularly, one who prays to a delusion five times a day is not delusional?

Five pork pies a day, or in this example, five Hal al meat pies a day is plenty for a picnic.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 06:21 PM

Who is kidding whom, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 06:21 PM

All I'm saying is that it doesn't necessarily mean they are delusional about everything else. That's only my take on it - I can't speak for anyone else, but that is my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 06:38 PM

In my opinion, if you say someone's core belief is a delusion, you are saying that they are delusional. That's my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 06:44 PM

Not if I say it. Maybe if you say it that is what you mean, but it isn't necessarily what I would mean. I don't think it's generally fair to judge someone on just one aspect of their existence.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 07:12 PM

You made an excellent point about the contradictions inherent in "democracy" (or any other governmental form) as well as in "religion", Ed! People are masters at fooling themselves, and most of them can engage in contradictory thinking and behaviour without a moment's hesitation. They never seem to see it in themselves, though, only in their "enemies".

That is mainly because most people's attention is directed outward at other people and the world, rather than inward. They live the unexamined life. It's interesting that the greatest spiritual figures like Jesus, Buddha, Lao-Tse, or Krishna all advised people to look within themselves to become enlightened! Dispassionate self-criticism and honest self-observation will get any person a hundred times farther down the road to maturity and compassion than doing what most people do instead, which is: they criticize and observe everthing outside themselves. By so doing, they never know themselves, and they stay largely ignorant and reactive. They do not question their own bad behaviour. This is also generally true of political systems which reflect the reactive state of mind of most of their citizenry. I think the human race is in a condition at this point in history which could be described as "late adolescence". We haven't grown up yet, but we've developed terrible weapons. That's a dangerous combination.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:34 PM

In my opinion, if you say someone's core belief is a delusion, you are saying that they are delusional. That's my opinion.

No, no, a thousand times no, Jacko. You want to take this position because it paints atheists as saying that anyone who believes in God is a deluded person. Mentally ill even, I think you were saying on that other thread. Nice Aunt Sally, but utterly transparent coming from you. Our slings and arrows, unfortunately for your analysis, are not aimed at individual people (though there are some who argue the fat for belief with blinkers fully on, and they may well qualify as delusional). The delusion in question is the one propagated by organised religion. It refers to that whole world of faith constructed round false dogma and "theology," all that tradition and mythology, all that stuff about witness and visions and miracles and answered prayers, etc. That's the mass of stuff that is propagated with the deliberate intention of controlling people, in other words to delude them into shape. Millions of perfectly good people have been hoodwinked thus, just as millions of people were hoodwinked into supporting Mao and Hitler. Think about that for a minute. You hoodwink people by giving them persuasive, superficially-attractive "facts" (actually stories, myths, tradition and fanciful accounts of visions and other such non-evidence), but you deny them truth. That is exactly what religion does. It's actually the biggest lie in history, and it dresses itself up in myriad other lies (aka doctrine, theology, scripture, catechisms etc.) in order to perpetuate itself. You can't blame people for falling for this, especially as the vast majority of them have been firmly told what to believe, as little children, by their parents, schools and clergy. The delusion lies in the whole setup of religion, not with individual people. Try to grasp this once and for all, Jacko, before one of us actually dies.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:47 PM

Don't go worrying about death Steve - remember, Schrödinger's cat proves we are all going to be reincarnated.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:57 PM

Fair enough, but don't even begin to think that I'll consent to coming back as a slug.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:23 PM

Hmm.. tricky one.. Possibly Katherine Parkinson's dog...

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:17 AM

"The delusion lies in the whole setup of religion, not with individual people. Try to grasp this once and for all"

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:35 AM

>>>I don't think it's generally fair to judge someone on just one aspect of their existence. <<<

Smokey,

That is hokem, plain and simple. You pray every day, you get on your knees, You say grace, You say "God Bless." You read the bible. All for a delusion but you are not delusional?

I have you say you have a unique and very compartmented way of seeing things.

>>You want to take this position because it paints atheists as saying that anyone who believes in God is a deluded person.<<<

Yes! Steveo! Yes! I believe that is what Dawkins is saying in his book. I believe that he would like to Christain and Muslim and Jewish kids taken away from their parents if the parents insist on raising their kids in that faith. He thinks it is child abuse to pass on the delusion. I think that he thinks you can learn a mental illness in Sunday school. Frankly Steveo, from some of the things you have said, I don't think you and he a far apart.

And you may think that Atheism is a small part of your life, and it may be, but it is not that way for a believer.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:47 AM

I'm not sure I understand why you would want me to believe you had a mental condition. Indeed, if you had, I wouldn't hold it against you - it's nothing to be ashamed of.

I have you say you have a unique and very compartmented way of seeing things.

Thank you Jack, I try to.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:49 AM

Steve, don't worry about coming back as a slug. You've already moved to a considerably more complex level than that, me lad! ;-) No sense reverting back to one's very early origions, is there?

You see, Darwin's theory proposes physical evolution...which seems self-evident to me. The theory of reincarnation proposes spiritual evolution. As far as I'm concerned, the two would go hand in hand and are twin reflections of the same process, simply manifesting at different levels, so to speak, but definitely interconnected.

I do not regard a belief in evolution as being antithetical to religion...only to very primitive forms of fundamentalist religion. All the religions of the East have evolution bound up inherently in their whole concept of spirituality.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:55 AM

Actually, I say "God bless' quite a lot and I'm sure there are believers who've read the Bible less than I have..

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:06 AM

>>>Actually, I say "God bless' quite a lot and I'm sure there are believers who've read the Bible less than I have.<<

Ah...

So I take it you don't mean it?

You are telling me that you tell people that you want God to bless them but that you do not believe in God?

That is pretty compartmentalized. A little disappointing too if I may be frank.

I am at a loss for words.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:21 AM

So I take it you don't mean it?

Not literally, no. 'Quite a lot' is stretching it a bit, come to think, but sometimes it seems appropriate.

You are telling me that you tell people that you want God to bless them but that you do not believe in God?

I don't, but the sweet little old lady giving me a cup of tea probably does.

Though you might call it cynical manipulative deception. Go on, if it makes you feel better :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:17 AM

Hypocrite, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 09:17 AM

You pray every day, you get on your knees, You say grace, You say "God Bless." You read the bible. All for a delusion but you are not delusional?

I have you say you have a unique and very compartmented way of seeing things.

Ha. I know lots of Christians who go to Sunday mass and come out and act very unchristianly for the rest of the week. General Franco, that paragon of democracy, virtue and fair play, was a daily communicant. There are plenty of avid Church-going Christians ripping people off in the City and in politics (plenty of non-Christians and atheists too, of course). Nah. Compartmentalising is not unique. It's actually par for the course for many fervent believers the world over in case you haven't noticed.   

Yes! Steveo! Yes! I believe that is what Dawkins is saying in his book. I believe that he would like to Christain and Muslim and Jewish kids taken away from their parents if the parents insist on raising their kids in that faith. He thinks it is child abuse to pass on the delusion. I think that he thinks you can learn a mental illness in Sunday school. Frankly Steveo, from some of the things you have said, I don't think you and he a far apart.

Thanks for the compliment. Those things are not in my copy of The God Delusion. Can you give me the page numbers? Certainly Christopher Hitchens has asked the question as to whether religious indoctrination is child abuse. My view is that that is the wrong way to put it. Child abuse has accreted very negative connotations of physical and sexual miususe of children and you don't win arguments by insinuating that parents forcing religion on their kids are in that league. I do think it's wrong, however. As I've said.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 09:27 AM

You seem like an honest, creative person, with an impressive vocabulary surely you could find another way to be nice to little old ladies without feeding their (non-medical) delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 10:37 AM

I avoid using the word bless. For sneezes there is gesundheit, which means health, ie a wish that you aren't becoming ill.

I also try to avoid using "god" (or any variations like jeez louise) "damn" "heaven" and "hell" in my swearing, which reduces me to "shit" "fuck" and "very" - practically paralyzing.


We need better swear words that don't perpetuate the myth.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:00 AM

"I'm probably more famous for sitting on the toilet than for anything else that I do".

Frank Zappa July 1, 1983: Interview on Nationwide (YouTube)

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:13 AM

>>I also try to avoid using "god" (or any variations like jeez louise) "damn" "heaven" and "hell" in my swearing, which reduces me to "shit" "fuck" and "very" - practically paralyzing.<<

Larry Niven had his characters use TANJ

There
Ain't
No
Justice

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:14 AM

"I also try to avoid using "god" (or any variations like jeez louise) "damn" "heaven" and "hell" in my swearing, which reduces me to "shit" "fuck" and "very" - practically paralyzing."

I'm sure you don't say 'goodbye' then, Mrrzy. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:19 AM

I think "Goodbye" is OK, it is a long way from its roots.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:35 AM

Jack, I'd not really thought about it until now - most of the time I'm not even conscious of the beliefs of the individuals I interact with in the real world. However, I don't see it as 'feeding their delusion' so much as 'not shattering their illusion'.

I know a few people socially who are 'believers' but the subject seldom arises in conversation. Dedicated threads like these are not, in my experience, representative of interaction in the real world. I think I mostly agree with Steve on the bigger issues, particularly education, but socially it just isn't an issue unless people start preaching, in which case my reaction can vary according to the situation. In real life I would, however, normally rather avoid 'preachers' of either persuasion. Good manners cost nowt, as we say round here.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:40 AM

And one can hardly say "shit", "fuck", or "goodbye" to a cup of tea from a sweet little old lady :-)