BS: The God Delusion 2010

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:19 PM

Religion is procedural, hierarchichal, historical, organizational, formal, and political.

Faith is personal.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:08 PM

Throughout history most religion has not been any gift to mankind at all. Usually just the opposite because it is corrupted by others who call themselves leaders.

If your faith is personal based.. it cannot be corrupted by others .. I have said it many times before, there is a huge difference between faith and religion ... Amos said it also , he is 100% correct.

it is like my friend who is minister and wanted me to check out his new church when I went to San Diego. Gary is one of the kindest and gentlest people one could meet. He said, isn't the church beautiful, I said sure is. I will show you mine when you visit. He visited me last summer and I took him out to a lookout point where you can see the valley, the grape vineyards and a perfect view of the Lake and told him
"this is my church" he said, you win, yours is more beautiful

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:03 PM

We all know there is gravity, Mrrzy. What we have theories about is what causes it and exactly how it works and whether there are any anomalies or variances in how it works. There are some very interesting theories now about gravity, and probably a great deal yet to be discovered concerning it.

Now, about "beyond reasonable doubt"....

Prior to the 1950s, the general science community felt sure beyond a reasonable doubt that continental drift did not and could not have ever occured. A scientist named Alfred Wegener thought otherwise and proposed his theory in 1905 about the breakup of an original enormous continent "Gondwanaland" into the present separate continents (plate tectonics...continental drift). He was scorned utterly by the mainstream science community who felt that it was beyond a reasonable doubt that continents do NOT move around, but have a permanent, fixed position on the globe.

They were wrong. ;-) Evidence since the 1950s has confirmed that Wegener was correct in his theory.

The conventional and popular view in any era NEVER doubts itself one iota...but it frequently turns out to be dead wrong after the passage of some time. The society of each century has the fun of debunking the sacred cows of the previous one...including the scientific sacred cows. I doubt we've seen the end of that.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:55 PM

Thank you Frank. You have been a music hero to me for over 40 years. And a good friend to me here on Mudcat. I always respect your opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM

The word evidence is the thing. A word, sadly, usurped by religion (religion loves to usurp) to mean, well, things that ain't evidence. Like writings in an ancient book with loads of authors, dodgy translators and even more "editors." Like witness statements (Bernadette for example). Like people who say they've had visions/prayers answered/miracle cures that were nothing of the sort. Like "look around you at the wonders of nature! What more evidence do you need!" I hate it when religion talks of evidence. There isn't the slightest scrap of evidence for the existence of God and there never will be. There's faith and there's evidence. The twain cannot meet in a religious context, ever.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:50 PM

Yes, but that extent is tiny - like, yeah, there MIGHT not be gravity, but all the evidence is that there *is*. That's why I said Upheld beyond a reasonable doubt. No, not proven, in science, you're right, I should have been more clear. But upheld beyond a reasonable doubt, absolutely. That is then an Accepted theory, like gravity, plate tectonics, evolution, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:25 PM

The distinction is between a hypothesis, which is an idea that doesn't as yet have much evidence to back it up, and a theory which does. All theories are still to some extent provisional.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:18 PM

Er, not really. There is no way that in science a theory is something that is proven beyond reasonable doubt. You're not a scientist, are you?

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:34 PM

Until it's been proven (upheld beyond a reasonable doubt), it isn't a theory. To be called a theory it already has to be well-established.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Amos
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:07 PM

Semantics surrounding words like "evidence" and "theory" are purely context-driven. They mean different things on the street than they do in th elab.

Faith and religion are far from being synonymous.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:03 PM

The lesson of Humpty Dumpty was to ask what people mean before reacting to our own meaning of what they said.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: pdq
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:52 PM

A "theory" which has been proven may be called a "law", "rule", "principle", and in math and (perhaps) classic logic, a "theorem".

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:28 PM

Mrrzy.. you have just enlarged on my kidding post to Joe Offer a ways back. Yes...there ARE strict, technical ways to use words like 'valid' and 'evidence', but those words are like 'folk' and 'traditional'; they are just too handy and convenient shorthand for "concepts that I like and agree with".

When words get used, as Humpy-Dumpty said to Alice, "to mean exactly what I choose them to mean..", it is an example of Equivocation.

This is SUCH a common problem when folks get to arguing past one another in a "yes it is"/"no it isn't" exercise in futility. They simply, flatly have different meanings in mind, and often, neither side figures it out.....and when the topic is about arcane, metaphysical matters, it is not always easy to even untangle enough rhetoric to show where the equivocation lies. It is even harder to get everyone to agree to **agree** on a common definition in order to continue the debate on level ground.

People say: "Well, MY God is not X" or "The 'spirit' of humanity is..." and often, even the one speaking cannot even find alternate language to explain his 'inner meaning'.

And we wonder why, after 10,000 years and variations in 10,000 languages, we fail to communicate!

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:12 PM

Just found this rather interesting programme...Hope some of you may enjoy it....

Richard Dawkins versus the fundamentalists.

Did Darwin Kill God - BBC Documentary in 6 parts

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 04:17 PM

I am glad that you are consistent in your Christian belief system. I think that this has to be respected regardless of whether I agree with it's "truth" or not. Although I am not in accordance with their belief system, I respect the Quakers for what they do.
I totally agree that our military system is corrupt just like our Senate and Congress.

I think that the Taliban is not Al Quaeda and that should be emphasized in our foreign policy.

I can understand why certain Christian believers do not identify with the war-mongering and loud-mouthed preachers, politicians and moral dictators. I try to respect the individual in his/her actions rather than in his/her belief system. When it comes down to the wire, in my view, human kindness and humanity trumps ideology every time.

Olddude, keep on pickin'. You have a fan here.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 04:15 PM

Doesn't get more clear than this:

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010Reason A
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 04:13 PM

Ok, this is an interesting question: if information A leads Person A to believe in Answer A, then that information is being considered as evidence for that answer by that person. BUT - if Answer A is known to be demonstrably false, OR if information A leads everybody else to answer B, or doesn't lead anybody else anywhere, THEN - is that information still evidence?

There are people who say the beauty of the world is evidence for deity, for instance. Most of us data folk restrict the word Evidence to replicable data, as in an increase in reaction time is Evidence for an increase in cognitive function. Also most of ua atheists consider the beauty of the world inevitable to us since we all evolved together, and would not consider it to bear on the existence of deity.

Evidence I would accept, Joe, would be replicable. But I would argue that semantically, what you have that you call evidence I wouldn't accept is rather not, to me, evidence at all.

Kinda like the word Theory. Evolution may be a theory but it is not theoretical, like gravity, which is also a theory.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 04:00 PM

You point is well take Frank. Those groups are not christian groups. They are power groups. Preachers who call themselves preachers who are in it for the dollars, the power, the votes for candidates of their choosing. To control the thoughts the words the actions of others .. to divide and then control.   Feeble minds who would followed anyone is their prime targets. They use half truths, distorted views of the faith to proceed with their plan.

I do not work for the military, ever again .. why .. it is against my faith .. it is wrong .. one cannot believe in Christ and build weapons that kill .. it is wrong .. so I walk away a better person. But others follow these leaders .. right into a dark place because they cannot think and understand the words of God .. if they read their own bible they would know it is wrong .. you cannot peddle hate against others .. you cannot demonize gay people or women. I understand atheist people getting so upset. Those people peddled so much hate that it is completely understandable to hate back. But hate bring hate bring more hate .. people who understand their God understand there is no place for hate towards anyone .. only compassion and love .. that is the only path in Christianity .. but understand also that evil people calling themselves Christian use half truths for their own gain.   The Taliban is not Muslim .. that is a great faith a faith of peace for 500 years they lived in peace with everyone .. but now some weak minds follow not their God but their self appointed leaders ... Much like you see today in the modern fundamentalist movement in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 03:35 PM

One of the scary things is the fundamentalist Christianization of the US military.
McChrystal was one of the culprits, here. Boykin was another. Not sure of Petraeus
but I am suspicious that he is another.

There are many reasons to question the efficacy of religion practically. I see no harm
in thoughtful criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 03:35 PM

And Frank, the so called Christian right that is really Christian wrong has peddled more hate in this country than any 10 other groups combined .. I can fully appreciate people going off on them. I DO THAT MYSELF

however, those of us here on mudcat ... well WE AIN'T THEM
when did you ever here me do that .. or Jerry or anyone else for that matter. And when one of those nut cases go off on gay people. I am the f irst one to kick their ass for them ..

Mudcat isn't rev TED .. one need to understand who they are talking to and why some people do tend to get upset

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM

I was talking my path personally Paul .. not anyone elses that is their choice.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 03:25 PM

I don't work for scary government agencies
I don't build weapon systems
I don't teach hand to hand fighting or handgun use


And because of not-faith, I do the same, though it's cost me.

And other people do the opposite because of faith, and still others because of not-faith.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:59 PM

"The main comfort people take in adopting any firm opinion, no matter what it is, is the absolute certainty that they are right, and that anyone who doesn't see it their way is wrong...as well as being a prat, a fool, an idiot, etc....   

And there you have this thread. In a nutshell."

LH, I have to disagree here. There is a possibility of having a rational and analytical
discussion about religion without dissing anyone. The purpose of this thread is no
different from other threads that I've seen promoting religious views.

As a supporter of the rights of freedom of speech, I think that many different points-of-view can and should be presented on Mudcat. I am not in favor of censorship. That's what I like about this BS section and Mudcat in particular. Keep 'em coming.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:52 PM

Wesley, atheists do have one major ally, the U.S. Constitution. Separation of Church and State. There are organizations that do protect the rights of atheists. The Freedom From Religion in Madison, Wisconsin is doing a great job.

There will continue to be court battles around such Separation issues.

Thank you Wesley for acknowledging that atheist's rights need to be respected.
This is the first voice of tolerance that I've heard on Mudcat among those who
are believers.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:42 PM

"Atheists are treated worse than Muslims or Gays today."

Probably correct there. That's why their rights need to be respected. Both of the other groups you mentioneded have organizations that come to their aid when their rights are infringed upon. It seems that by nature - athiests don't belong to groups that have the power to protect their rights. The ACLU comes to mind - but the answer to this and other problems where rights are trampled is to organize.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:35 PM

I think it's possible to have a rational discussion about religion without resorting to passionate reactionary opinions. I can see that religion for some people has more of a benign effect and that not all religious folk are violent, prejudiced or behave destructively.

In the end, it comes down to personal opinions about the value of religion. It will not change anyone's mind to argue pro or con but it can be illuminating to present a different point-of-view. I'm happy that we don't all think alike.

I think that the figures given by the media for the rise of atheism in the US are too low.

Although religion for me is a delusion, I don't think religious people are necessarily crazy.
It would be crazy to say that. Delusion may sound like an attack to some but the word is clear.

delusion
noun
was her belief in his fidelity just a delusion? misapprehension, misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction, misbelief; fallacy, illusion, fantasy.

No where does it say that the holder of a delusion is crazy.

Tolerance, people. Atheists are treated worse than Muslims or Gays today.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM

It reminds me of the age old question: "Do you want to be happy - or right?"

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:27 PM

Most of the people here are too rational to condone this. But this is where religion can
lead many people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfL7GvWsHAA&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:25 PM

The main comfort people take in adopting any firm opinion, no matter what it is, is the absolute certainty that they are right, and that anyone who doesn't see it their way is wrong...as well as being a prat, a fool, an idiot, etc....   

And there you have this thread. In a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:24 PM

I think it exists here Wesley about atheists as well as other points-of-view.

Prejudice is prejudice regardless of who is the recipient of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:21 PM

"Man, there sure is a lot of prejudice on Mudcat."

So Frank - just to clarify the matter. Your belief is that the folks who have to put up with the bulk of the prejudice here at the Mudcat are the athiests?

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:14 PM

"Please tell us about how comforting atheism is for you."

As a non-atheist this is what I'd posit: No afterlife = no eternity of damnation and torment?

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:10 PM

mousethief,

I have followed Richard Dawkin's speeches and find no hatred in them but there is
plenty of hatred for those who criticize religion in a dispassionate and analytical way.

There are all kinds of atheists and some of them are shrill and mean but Dawkins is not
one of them. He is a rational thinker and though critical of religion, he has religious
friends and supporters. Dawkins is an ethologist, a biologist and a proponent of Darwin and one of the few who really understands Darwin's contributions to humanity.

Man, there sure is a lot of prejudice on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:03 PM

Ron you are under misapprehensions about atheism.

"Interesting that many of the same players are here as were earlier telling us about the incomparable crime of a nurse praying for a patient--never mind that the patient herself did not seem to have any objection."

First of all, nothing fails like prayer.

" US atheists are also not helping their cause--with the exception of Bill D, they also appear incapable of rational thinking. and reasonable debate."

This is patently false.

"I don't consider myself in the least religious but I do believe in fair play for all points of view--and on Mudcat religion seems to be the #1 scapegoat for most ills of the world.".

I wouldn't call your bias against atheism as fair play. I'd call it intolerance.

" Start with Hitler, Stalin and Mao---together responsible for more deaths than anybody else in human history."

Religion has been responsible for more deaths than Hitler, Stalin and Mao put together.
Also, Hitler was raised a Catholic and he condemned atheism.

"Atheism has been an unmitigated disaster for mankind. Religion has had much misery inflicted in its name.   But atheism wins this contest hands down.    Congratulations to all you atheists."

This statement is blind prejudice and nothing else. It's complete propaganda.

"And religion, for its believers, is a very real source of comfort.   Please tell us about how comforting atheism is for you."

Actually atheism can be very comforting because it frees the mind from the shackles
of dogma. It's like being released from a prison.

" agnosticism is an eminently reasonable stance for a thinking person to take. Atheism is not--for the same reason that fundamentalist religion is not."

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. There are agnostic atheists as well as many kinds.

McGrath, atheism is not a "faith" or belief. It is a lack of faith or belief in religion and
that's all it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 01:56 PM

"No matter how benign it may seem, no matter what feelings of community or fellowship it bestows, it is dishonestly perpetuating myth as truth in their impressionable minds. Doing this to children is the ultimate in pushing somethin' on somebody and there's simply no escaping that fact. And millions and millions of people do it."


Bang goes Father Christmas then... ;0)


Look, I saw this programme. It was very interesting...sadly they've removed it from Youtube at present, else I'd have linked to it. Richard Dawkins is as passionate about evolution being the 'answer' as others are about religion being the same thing.

Bottom line, NONE of us will *ever* know, ever, ever...EVER.

Most of the 'religous' folks he met were slightly extreme, to say the least..There was 'Bible Bashing Ted' and the eerily aggressive 'Once I was a Jew now I'm TWICE the Muslim you ARE!' bloke, who had steam coming out of his ears and was almost writing the name Dawkins in his new 'Hit List 2010 Diary'

What made me chuckle was when Richard and Bible Bashing Ted got talking...and each was as arrogant, angry and aggressive as the other. Hormones were flying, swords were being laid down with visual expressions alone! I've *never* seen two men who looked more as if they wanted to kill each other than those two...

Now of course, the interesting thing is that Bible Bashing Ted Haggard has been Bashing Gays with the Bible for a long time, encouraging many others to do the same...but then, I find on Youtube, 'Oh dear, Woopsie, Ted' admitting to having had homosexual relationships in the past...and being a little confused about his wife, although he now loves her passionately, apparently.   Ted was falling over himself, following therapy (and a 'lover' who basically sold his story) to apologise from the bottom of his hypocritcal heart, fully admitting he'd been a hypocrite and had done much damage to some gay people with his attitude and preachings...

Well, that's all fine and dandy, but of course, those who need to believe their preachers 1000 percent will have taken his words of hatred on board...especially if they're little children, whose Mums and Dads put them to bed singing anti-gay songs each night..and oh yes, those are out there on Youtube too..

Religious extremists of ALL religions do terrible damage to decent people whose religion is about love, kindness and helping each other, nothing else..

I think Christianity has become so hated because of the issue over gay people, and imo, the Gay Rights Movement has done a great deal to try to damage Christianity because of that issue.   I guess many can understand their anger, for to be gay and to be told that you cannot be a Christian because God deems you to be kinda weird and wrong, must hurt to the very core. Add to this the crazy folks who use that to whip up hatred and horror for gay people and well...it's just not good, really, is it?

Now, I don't believe that God hates Gay people, or Black people, or Short people or Tall people, because I believe that the Bible was written by *people*, many of whom had their own personal hang ups...I believe that of the other Holy Books too.

Soooo...I think that's why Christianity gets so attacked in here, although I could, of course be wrong.

Yes, most wars start over religion, but...we're changing that now, and starting them over oil and water, so that's er...a step forward...or at least it will be when all religions join together 'cos no-one has any oil or water left...and finally we all become ONE religion....., which is The Spirit of Faith, I guess...

I love God, but he's my god...and he has a whacking sense of humour. I silently curse him at times though, but I also feel sorry for him, b ecause in forgetting to explain to humans where we came from, how the Big Bang happened, where the first atom appeared from, he's created one helluva stink...

But then, maybe he likes that...maybe he likes sitting up there with Darwin beside him watching this Game of Life To Infinity and Beyond, being played out below...

I tell you what though, as Dan says, you only have to look to Nature, to the Beauty of this Planet, to realise that something, somewhere, somehow, sometime is 'out there', but we all have to be patient and wait until we die to find out exactly what the answer is.

Hopefully, there's a Heavenly Big Bang Mudcat board up there, to which we can all post "I ***TOLD*** you ***SO!***" messages to...and Joe can sit there, zapping the Heavenly Guests from it, day after day, ad infinitum... :0)

The main thing is that Pastor Ted is probably earning EVEN MORE from his TV appearances than he did from his Bible Bashing meetings...so er...that's OK then!

Faith, to me, is all. No rules, no regulations, no Pastor Ted's, no hang ups...just faith and beauty and peace..

Pastor Ted comes clean

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 01:55 PM

"Somehow I wasn't aware that Torquemada was in charge in the UK."

It's alive and well in the U.S.   Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 01:08 PM

because of faith
I don't work for scary government agencies
I don't build weapon systems
I don't teach hand to hand fighting or handgun use

I make grape juice
I build charity website for sick kids

I study war no more ..

I thank God for my faith .. it changed my life and that is my path forever
be well my friend, leaving the thread now

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 12:47 PM

Dear Steve
that is exactly why I posted so many times if you can understand my drift here. But hey you are welcome to your opinions .. it is highly unlikely that I will post again to another one since I said my piece.

Bill, my dear friend you are sooo right .. gotta ask my doc buddie, there has to be a group around here that I can join .. I went from 2 packs a day to 0 ... not fun

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 12:40 PM

"This is why I regard such threads as not productive."

Amazing, then, how many times you've posted to it, considering.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 11:49 AM

Dear Dan, except for the last time, when I really did quit smoking, I was so angry the whole time I could have bitten the heads off nails. It was not logical, of course, because I was doing it to myself, but the fact remains that I was plain mad.

And also, of course, I didn't make it. I didn't make it because I had turned into a person I couldn't stand.

My question: Is there any group, club or person that you could go to get over this patch? The deprivation is real; you are asking yourself to change what seems to be your whole life while giving yourself what seems to be very little in return.

Now back to the thread...

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM

sure Dan... here you go

(the only kind I ever tried)

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 11:03 AM

This seems to happen a lot. I was thinking last night. The last thing I want to do is go off on people that I do very much regard as friends. I don't think you can talk to people every day for 5 years and not figure out how they tick and become close to them. This is why I regard such threads as not productive. If one knows that there are a large segment of catters that do have faith, that regard their faith as deeply personal and a very important part of their life. Then why would you want to upset your friends to the point of wanting to explode. I don't get it. If someone is preaching to you, confront them and ask them to politely stop you are not interested. But what is the point of causing hard feelings to those who have done nothing but offer their hand in friendship. I don't get it .. God to those who believe is no a delusion but very real in spirit to them and people like me. It is a glue that holds meaning to a persons life and it is a very personal thing. Everyone can find their own path. But most of these types of threads are nothing more than attacks .. I feel it is wrong and not something that is productive but you are free to do so. Likewise, you have to understand when good people go off on you for it . And you run the risk of losing people who care about you. Kinda messed up thinking to me. But anyway .. no hard feeling from me. I do apologize for blowing up .. like I said I have a few issues right at the moment .. (anyone got a cig)

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:18 AM

So after more than 200 posts--on Mudcat's most dead horse--what do we have? Looks to be a gaggle of dyspeptic (thanks for the opportunity to use that word) old geese honking madly about the heinous crimes of church bells, baptism---(so sorry you were forced to be baptized, especially for the lifelong trauma it has evidently caused you), being forced to see on busses advertisements you don't agree with, etc.   And I expect some Jehovah's Witnesses have further shattered your life forever by knocking on your door. The lives of the non-believers on Mudcat must be a living hell--so sorry for inflicting religious terminology on you.   Somehow I wasn't aware that Torquemada was in charge in the UK.

Interesting that many of the same players are here as were earlier telling us about the incomparable crime of a nurse praying for a patient--never mind that the patient herself did not seem to have any objection.

The vaunted British sense of fair play is scarcely in evidence here--only McGrath and Leadfingers representing it. US atheists are also not helping their cause--with the exception of Bill D, they also appear incapable of rational thinking. and reasonable debate.

I don't consider myself in the least religious but I do believe in fair play for all points of view--and on Mudcat religion seems to be the #1 scapegoat for most ills of the world.".

"..inclined to go with Dawkins that all religions are dangerous". You can tell us about how all religions are dangerous when you are willing to explain how atheism has worked out when in power.   Start with Hitler, Stalin and Mao---together responsible for more deaths than anybody else in human history.

Atheism has been an unmitigated disaster for mankind. Religion has had much misery inflicted in its name.   But atheism wins this contest hands down.    Congratulations to all you atheists.

And religion, for its believers, is a very real source of comfort.   Please tell us about how comforting atheism is for you.


As I noted earlier, agnosticism is an eminently reasonable stance for a thinking person to take. Atheism is not--for the same reason that fundamentalist religion is not.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:52 AM

Americas really is more like a different planet than a different country in some ways...

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:44 AM

On the abortion issue, it is always assumed that if you are pro-choice you are also pro-abortion. This is not true. Abortion is always a last ditch effort and not a first choice
for any woman. It's a very hard decision to make in the mind of a healthy woman.

However, to outlaw abortion is to deny a woman not only the right to choose but to
negate the very difficult decision as irrelevant. In that sense, it's a dismissal of
women and their needs by ideologues who are general white, overweight males who have at the bottom of their reasoning a political agenda. They don't really care about women or
babies but are using the abortion issue as a political tool.

It is true that many of the outspoken critics of abortion are women. But they all have
a political agenda whereas the pro-choice women may not.

Having an abortion is not an easy decision and the so-called "pro-life" groups trivialize
this by their close-minded political agendas.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:25 AM

Joe Offer,

I think you are very wrong about Dawkins. He doesn't hate religion, he just thinks it's
a delusion. There is a difference.

There are those out there who do express hate for religion but these are basically ex-religious people who are still in the throes of religion and are overreacting.

Then there are those who have left religion to those who want it and see no need for it
in their lives. They also see no need to convince anyone of their views.

But remember Joe that the majority of Americans polled statistically don't believe in evolution because of their religion. There are also plenty of religious people out there who justify killing and destructive behavior using their religion as a pretext to do this.

The percentage of Freethinkers and non-believers are not given to violence compared to
the believers. This may be due to the fact that this is a growing minority.

Hate doesn't equate with atheism.

I also see that Mudcat is not always respectful of secular views and sometimes people
impose their religious views on others here and you don't object to that. This is
a double standard.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:29 AM

"If people see something valuable in the way I live life and want to share my faith, that would be wonderful - but that's entirely up to them. I don't want to push nothin' on nobody."

That is very laudable (and I'd like to say the same thing about my atheistic self as it happens). But every Christian/Muslim/Jew/whoever who ever sent a child to a religious school, or connived in their receiving religious instruction in any school, or took them to religious services, or said prayers with them before bed, or had them christened at a very young age, or confirmed, or whatever the equivalents are in the non-Christian religions, is pushing somethin' on somebody, and big time with it. No matter how benign it may seem, no matter what feelings of community or fellowship it bestows, it is dishonestly perpetuating myth as truth in their impressionable minds. Doing this to children is the ultimate in pushing somethin' on somebody and there's simply no escaping that fact. And millions and millions of people do it.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:22 AM

"Trouble is there are many 'people of faith' in the world who are desperate to proselytize and to convert others.

And sometimes the "faith" involved is proselytising atheism.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to share what you believe in and value, but it can't be imposed. "If I have a religion, it's music" said Smokey just there. amd that's a good analogy. You're happy to share your music and give people a chance to hear it, but you can't force it.

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:20 AM

We all indeed, I take it, experience these moments of numinosity, 'Mystic experience', call it what you will, when we feel as if some profound thought or experience is hovering on the verges of the mind if only one could just grasp what it was ~~ it is how I always interpret Edward Thomas's exquisite poem "Adlestrop"*. But I have always taken it that there is some neurological explanation for it, rather than that it is proof of the existence of any sort of Divinity.

~Michael~

[* The name of a small village in Gloucestershire in the west of England, where, it appears, Thomas once had such a thought-process as his train stopped for a few moments in its station.]

Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:05 AM

"No one thinks that God is physical."

Huh? Surely if someone believes in intelligent design then God has to be physical, or am I missing the point? How would the process of creation work if God were not physical?

Good link Suibhe. The subject of transcendence is one that interests me (both in the bacchic and delphic sense) and is a state of mind which obviously is felt and desired by all people. Yet it's workings are mysterious . . . the very first time I stood in front of Rothko's Seagram murals I experienced a state of transcendence that I certainly wasn't expecting, a moment of epiphany followed and in some way my world outlook was changed at that instant in time. The same happened when I picked up my first ceratopsian fossil in the North Dakota badlands in the summer, when I stood in Arbor Low one sunny day years ago etc etc. What do these moment mean? We all experience these states in a fleeting sense and we wonder if these states could be experienced for longer, and here the more thoughtful mystical branches of religion have some fascinating philosophys (I believe Christian Gnostics call the feeling 'At Play in the Fields of the Lord', a buddhist would call it 'Nirvana').

But . . . scientists also experience these moments (the badlands - yes!) too and the Sagan quotes which are couched in quasi-mystical terms demonstrate this brilliantly. Obviously these moments of transcendence touch individuals differently, we draw different conclusions from the experience. However, it is a common experience (a musicians we all understand that) so what is going on?

It might be simply a firing of synapses in a particularly unusual order; a pleasurable spark of electricity in the biological machine we call 'the brain'. It might be a flash of insight into the divine nature of the universe, or it might be the physical universe contemplating and marvelling at itself through one of it's conscious manifestations . . . us.

I'll go with the last one.*






* But I might be wrong ;-)