Lyr Add: When All Men Sing (K Scowcroft, D Gifford

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN ALL MEN SING
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Aug 99 - 12:21 PM

I believe this song is trad - anyone know for sure? I also would much appreciate a tune. I've sung this with others at festivals, but the tune gets loaded into short term memory and I can't ever remember it when I get home. THANKS!
-------------------

When All Men Sing

When snow transforms the hedgerow thorn
And frost engilds the berry
Good men and true the firelogs hew
And in the inns make merry
When singing all as with one voice
It seems the very walls rejoice
And merriment about does spring
When all men sing.

Chorus:
Let every man so pitch his song
To help his neighbor sing along
To each and all contentment bring
When all men sing.

2. When lambs are seen and trees spring green
Come forth in bloom the daisies
For winters end our thanks we'll send
At Easter-time sing praises
Then with a will, yea one accord
We'll raise our voices to the Lord
And praise above our heavenly King
When all men sing.

Chorus:

3. When in the fields his scythe he wields
Then hear his summer sound
As man and boy their lungs employ
The songs they echo round
Rebound from hill and roof and spire
Starting lowly building higher
So surely then his scythe will swing
When all men sing.

Chorus:

4. When leaves they fall from elm tree tall
Then every back must bend
As young and old with courage bold
Their efforts they expend
Ensuring autumn's gifts are stored
Afore cold winter winds is blowed
Then comes and end to foraging
When all men sing.

Chorus:

5. Here's songs in season every year
Some voices sweet with others strong
Gently round ascending
With harmonies a-blending
In unison pours forth the song
Uplifting beams of Inn or Hall
And shaking plaster from the wall
When all men sing.

Chorus:
^^

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: PKD on Teesside
Date: 23 Aug 99 - 07:32 AM

Hi,

No, it's not.

The words are by Keith Scowcroft (Scowie) and the tune is by Derek Gifford (Gif).

I'm sure it is on one of Gif's tapes, but I don't know which.

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Aug 99 - 08:43 AM

Thanks, Paul!

Perhaps someone with a record company will want to sell me a tape, someone could do an ABC or MIDI or hum a few bars in e-mail to me.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: PKD onTeesside
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 02:57 AM

Hi Jeri,

The song When All Men Sing is on a Cassette of Scowcroft & Gifford material called "When All Men Sing" recorded by Derek Gifford in about 1988.

I do not know the label, but Derek has since recorded for Fellside Records, and they may be able to help.

They have a web site, www.fellside.com

Hope this helps.

I do know the tune, but I'm not geared up to getting it onto the internet. I could sing it for you over a telephone, if that's any good. If so, you can e-mail me to arrange something on:

[e-mail]

I'm in the UK, by the way.

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Sep 99 - 10:08 AM

Refresh, in the hopes one of our newer members might know the tune. Thanx!

I (belatedly) replied to Paul by e-mail. The offer of an international phone call to sing me the song - wow! But it would cost many units of currency.

Paul, if all else fails, this may be an option, but of course I'd pay for the call.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Nogs
Date: 30 Dec 99 - 02:01 PM

Well, this took a bit of searching. I hope that jeri is still with us.

Derek Gifford wrote me saying that the tape that this song appeared on has olng since sold out, but that those songs, plus 4 more, are available on CD. He did not provide me with the name of the CD, so you might want to include the song request. As of last month, he was asking $15 US plus $5 shipping. He also provided some promotional material with a discography if that is of any interest.
He may be reached at
22 Stoney Brow
Robey Mill
Up Holland
Lancashire
WN8 OQE

(God I love English addresses!)

Nogs

Line Breaks <br> added.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: MMario
Date: 30 Dec 99 - 02:36 PM

she's still with us.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Dec 99 - 02:55 PM

I'm still here and still interested. Once I figure out where the line breaks in the address go, I'll write Derek. You don't know if he'll accept credit cards or U.S. checks, do you?

Nogs, thank you very much, for noticing/remembering this thread and doing the research.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 99 - 08:53 PM

As I said when this song came up on another thread a few weeks back, I've always heard and sung this one as "When Old Men Sing".

I love the thought of these old buggers in the pub throwing back their heads and roaring out the chorus and drowning the fruit machine's rattling away. And then I look in the glass and recognise myself.

And if that's not what the fella who wrote it wrote, I think this is just another example of how the folk process can improve even the best songs.

But thanks for posting the words.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Nogs
Date: 31 Dec 99 - 09:10 AM

Oops. I can remember the line breaks when I am entering lyrics. Forgot them with this address. It should be:
22 Stoney Brow Robey Mill
Up Holland
Lancashire
WN8 OQE
howzat?
Nogs
By the by, he requested a cashiers check, or a bankers' check. Did not mention credit cards or personal US checks.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Dec 99 - 03:02 PM

Thanks Nogs! I'll have no problem finding a banker's/cashier's check. (I'm glad I don't need to send an international money order - I have no idea where to get one around here.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Susan of DT
Date: 31 Dec 99 - 04:57 PM

Jeri - if you are coming to Annap's, we can probably sing it for you there. I sort of know it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From:
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 02:23 PM

I know this thread is a year old, but if anyone did manage to get the tune, I'd be very grateful.

I've sung it a few times, but I also suffer from short term memory, and also thought it was old men singing. Having looked at the bottom of my glass a few times, it obviously isn't me !

Does anyone have the tune in abc ?

Happy new year

Toxic John

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: MMario
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 04:18 PM

refresh - Jeri - did you ever get this tune? it's on the "missing" list

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 05:26 PM

Well, Susan didn't know the tune, so I didn't get it at the gathering. I found a Real Audio tidbit of Johnny Collins singing it, and I've transcribed it, but...no chorus. If I remember correctly, the chorus sounds like a repeat of the second part of the verse - anybody know?

I hesitate to send something incorrect in because there seems to be no way to easily fix tunes once they're in the DT. In any case, I'll be back in a bit with a MidiText file of what I've got and what I think the chorus is. I will attempt to un-bugger-up the ABCs.

Subject: Tune Add: WHEN ALL MEN SING
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 05:43 PM

Please - if anyone knows if the chorus part is ok, or if it needs to be fixed, please let me know.

Toxic John, ABCs are down at the bottom under the red stuff.

MIDI file: ALLMEN.MID

Timebase: 120

Name: When All Men Sing
Text: Keith Scowcroft(words) Derek Gifford(tune)
TimeSig: 4/4 24 8
Key: C
Tempo: 100 (600000 microsec/crotchet)
Start
0420 1 55 100 0060 0 55 000 0000 1 60 100 0120 0 60 000 0000 1 62 100 0120 0 62 000 0000 1 64 100 0180 0 64 000 0000 1 60 100 0060 0 60 000 0000 1 65 100 0120 0 65 000 0000 1 64 100 0120 0 64 000 0000 1 62 100 0180 0 62 000 0000 1 60 100 0060 0 60 000 0000 1 60 100 0120 0 60 000 0000 1 64 100 0120 0 64 000 0000 1 67 100 0180 0 67 000 0000 1 69 100 0060 0 69 000 0000 1 67 100 0060 0 67 000 0000 1 65 100 0360 0 65 000 0000 1 69 100 0060 0 69 000 0000 1 69 100 0120 0 69 000 0000 1 65 100 0120 0 65 000 0000 1 65 100 0180 0 65 000 0000 1 69 100 0060 0 69 000 0000 1 67 100 0120 0 67 000 0000 1 65 100 0120 0 65 000 0000 1 64 100 0180 0 64 000 0000 1 62 100 0060 0 62 000 0000 1 62 100 0180 0 62 000 0000 1 64 100 0060 0 64 000 0000 1 62 100 0120 0 62 000 0000 1 60 100 0120 0 60 000 0000 1 59 100 0060 0 59 000 0000 1 59 100 0360 0 59 000 0000 1 55 100 0060 0 55 000 0000 1 60 100 0120 0 60 000 0000 1 62 100 0120 0 62 000 0000 1 64 100 0180 0 64 000 0000 1 60 100 0060 0 60 000 0000 1 65 100 0120 0 65 000 0000 1 64 100 0120 0 64 000 0000 1 62 100 0180 0 62 000 0000 1 60 100 0060 0 60 000 0000 1 60 100 0180 0 60 000 0000 1 62 100 0060 0 62 000 0000 1 64 100 0060 0 64 000 0000 1 67 100 0180 0 67 000 0000 1 65 100 0180 0 65 000 0000 1 64 100 0060 0 64 000 0000 1 67 100 0180 0 67 000 0000 1 69 100 0060 0 69 000 0000 1 69 100 0180 0 69 000 0000 1 65 100 0060 0 65 000 0000 1 65 100 0180 0 65 000 0000 1 69 100 0060 0 69 000 0000 1 67 100 0120 0 67 000 0000 1 65 100 0120 0 65 000 0000 1 64 100 0120 0 64 000 0000 1 60 100 0120 0 60 000 0000 1 62 100 0240 0 62 000 0000 1 59 100 0240 0 59 000 0000 1 60 100 0360 0 60 000 0060 1 55 100 0060 0 55 000 0000 1 60 100 0120 0 60 000 0000 1 62 100 0120 0 62 000 0000 1 64 100 0180 0 64 000 0000 1 60 100 0060 0 60 000 0000 1 65 100 0120 0 65 000 0000 1 64 100 0120 0 64 000 0000 1 62 100 0180 0 62 000 0000 1 60 100 0060 0 60 000 0000 1 60 100 0180 0 60 000 0000 1 62 100 0060 0 62 000 0000 1 64 100 0060 0 64 000 0000 1 67 100 0180 0 67 000 0000 1 65 100 0120 0 65 000 0000 1 64 100 0120 0 64 000 0000 1 67 100 0180 0 67 000 0000 1 69 100 0060 0 69 000 0000 1 69 100 0180 0 69 000 0000 1 65 100 0060 0 65 000 0000 1 65 100 0180 0 65 000 0000 1 69 100 0060 0 69 000 0000 1 67 100 0120 0 67 000 0000 1 65 100 0120 0 65 000 0000 1 64 100 0120 0 64 000 0000 1 60 100 0120 0 60 000 0000 1 62 100 0240 0 62 000 0000 1 59 100 0240 0 59 000 0000 1 60 100 0360 0 60 000
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:When All Men Sing
M:4/4
Q:1/4=100
K:C
Z7G,1|C2D2E3C|F2E2D3C|C2E2G3A|GF6A|A2F2F3A|
G2F2E3D|D3ED2C2|B,B,6G,|C2D2E3C|F2E2D3C|C3DEG3|
F3EG3A|A3FF3A|G2F2E2C2|D4B,4|C7G,|C2D2E3C|
F2E2D3C|C3DEG3|F2E2G3A|A3FF3A|G2F2E2C2|D4B,4|
C6||

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: MMario
Date: 26 Mar 01 - 10:36 PM

thanks jeri -

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:24 AM

I've said this before ..... If you see me on paltalk just ask and I'll sing the tune for you ( not sure I could remember ALL the words. All you need is a tape recorder at your end

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 04:35 AM

If interested there is a wonderful parady doing the rounds called "when some men sing"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 08:52 AM

Nutty - I may do that - but I cannot transcribe by ear - and this is one of the tunes we're trying to get into the database if possible.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 12:02 PM

I'll try to put it on Noteworthy but as you know I'm very slow so don't hold your breath

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 01:42 PM

tune file e-mailed to you MMario - hope its OK

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 01:47 PM

She did it and it's on it's way to joe.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM

MMario, how similar is the MidiText tune I did to nutty's?

The verse is right according to the way Johnny Collins sang the song, but I was just guessing on the chorus.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:23 PM

have to tell you tomorrow jeri - I don't have them both in the same place.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 05:54 PM

MMario?

I can send you the MIDI if you want, so you don't have to go through re-translating it. --E-mail clicky

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 05:08 AM

Derrick Gifford - who wrote when all men sing was featured at Uxbridge FC last night - good time was had by all - and yes he did sing it . He was busy tryin to sell some of his old tapes etc before his new CD comes out.
When some men sing is by Malcom Austin - Derrick told us a tale that when he went to some club up north he sang his original - and got told "very good , now lets have the "proper" version!"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:23 PM

This is a really great song. I'm a bit curious about the last verse though:

Here's songs in season every year
Sosme voices sweet with others strong
Gently round ascending
With harmonies a-blending
In unison pours forth the song
Uplifting beams of Inn or Hall And shaking plaster from the wall When all men sing


So we have the line "With harmonies a-blending" followed by "In unison pours forth the song." So harmonies are being sung and then suddenly no harmony and singing is in unison? Am I missing something?


Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:26 PM

Sorry, folks. I missed some line breaks in that last post. The verse looks like this:

Here's songs in season every year
Some voices sweet with others strong
Gently round ascending
With harmonies a-blending
In unison pours forth the song
Uplifting beams of Inn or Hall
And shaking plaster from the wall
When all men sing


Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:47 PM

I have no idea, unless he just meant everyone singing at the same time.

I've stuck the midi I did the above MidiText file from here. (Will go straight to the midi, not a web page.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:52 PM

Radriano - you would need to go back to the original Keith Scowcroft poem to find the answer to that

Keith is a Poet not a song writer and the words ( particularly the words of this poem ) have been edited by Derek Gifford who then set them to music

They do make wonderful songs but are slightly different from the original

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 06:17 PM

You know, as I think more about it, it does kinda make sense but you rarely, if ever, hear singing shift from harmony to unison.

I believe unison singing is found in parts of Ireland. I know that the famous Clancy Brothers sang mostly in unison. But Keith Scowcroft and Derek Gifford are English anyway. Is there traditional unison singing in England?

I've ordered a copy of Derek Gifford's recording through the Chantey Cabin website. Maybe I can get in touch with Gifford and ask him about it.

Hey, I just had a flash. It makes more sense, to me, if that fifth line in the last verse read "Now in unison pours forth the song." That would signify that the shift from harmony to unison were planned.


Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 06:34 PM

In case anyone is interested, below is a link to the Chantey Cabin website. Derrek Gifford's cd is still available from them. The site is run by Ken and Jan Lardner, who act as a clearing house for performers that they know. As the name suggests most of the groups listed on the site are nautical but some of the performers, like Derrek Gifford, also have recordings out that are semi-nautical or non-nautical.

For those of us living in the States ordering from the Chantey Cabin can be somewhat costly due to overseas shipping charges but I don't mind paying a little more for something that I just can't find in the U.S. The album costs are all in English money but Ken and Jan will convert the prices into American money for you when you e-mail an order to them.


The Chantey Cabin

Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 07:20 PM

I've created a GIF of the notation for this song from the ABC file posted earlier. A GIF is a graphic file - looks like a page of sheet music. Anyone who would like a copy can e-mail me at:

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 03:36 AM

I've just listened to that midi file of the tune & I'm sorry folks but its some what different from the tune that is normally used & is used by Derrick. I'm no good at dots, but if someone tells me how to do the paltalk I can sing it. Jude

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 03:42 AM

By the way I thought the squiggle after lyrics meant they'd been collected & added to the Lyrics list but when I went to look in the Digitrad search, when all men sing isn't there . I am now a little confused. Help

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Snuffy
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:09 AM

Jude, the ^^ means they've been collected, but the DT is only updated twice a year - April and October. This may be in the Apr01 or possibly Oct01 update, but the Apr00 and Oct00 updates still aren't online, although they are available from Dick on CD

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:41 AM

Jude - I have done a noteworthy file of the tune which has been sent to Joe Offer via MMario. It's as near as I can get to the original without the "twiddly bits" - so it's just the plain tune but it's accurate.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:44 AM

The tune that the DT will use will be nutty's, as apparently other formats than Noteworthy Composer aren't acceptable, or are less acceptable. Nutty's is somewhat different from the Johnny Collins version I transcribed - there are a few different notes and the rhythm isn't as "bouncy" as mine. The non-bounciness may just have been for expediency or to keep it simple, but it may be the way Derrik sings it.

Section in the FAQ on Paltalk

I'm "JeriJean" in Paltalk, but I'm not in there often as I rather hate some aspects of it. (The ads and the fact I have to turn off my firewall to use it.)

Another idea is to record a .wav file of a verse and chorus and e-mail it to me. I have a slow connection, and anything over a couple of megabytes takes forever for me to download. I'd be happy to have a listen.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:49 AM

OK - I spent too long writing that. Now I know about the "twiddly bits."

In any case, I may revise mine, and request your critique when I've done so. My main reason for wanting to get the tune right is because I'd like to learn the song, and it will be -as Snuffy pointed out- a LONG time before the tune is available in the DT.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:52 AM

Jeri - it was kept as simple as possible but it was also constrained by being written down . Unaccompanied songs are not constrained by strict adherence to rhythm and tend to be sung freely and with feeling as this one is. As I said - the tune is the basic one - but I am willing to send it to anyone who PM's me with an email address

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:54 AM

Email sent Richard but made a mess of the address 1st time round so please let me know that it has arrived OK

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: radriano
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 01:51 PM

Thanks nutty, I got it just fine.

It will be interesting to compare the different tunes for this song with Derrick Gifford's own version (when the copy I ordered arrives). Actually, I'm not too concerned about it. Because this kind of music is primarily an aural tradition I never look on a written version as being exactly correct. Derreck Gifford himself may not do it the same way each time. Besides, what works for one singer may not work for another. The song is bound to go through some changes as it is passed from one person to the next.

Regards to all,
Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 02:54 PM

I've had the pleasure of spending time with Keith "Skowie" Scowcroft and have copies of three of his books of poetry. He may have a fourth one out now -- He has some really great ones -- many that have been put to music by Derek and also Mike O'Leary-Johns (FINE trad singer and all -around great guy)

Skowie is quite the character and an incredibly generous country gentleman. Generous with his time and his poetry. If ever you see him, please send my regards!!

Hoping to see him again on one of my upcoming trips across the big pond -- July 2001 or January 2002!!

so, if you need to know the words actually written for this or another song, happy to oblige.

Other favorites are "The Hat that Sings" - written in honor of Song and Ale in Whittlebury (wish I could be there this year!), "Sailor's Day", "That Old Death Trap" and "Moth to a Flame"

all great --

Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: nutty
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 03:24 PM

Joy - if you are coming to the UK in Jan 2002 please get in touch
I run a singers weekend in the North of England in Jan , it is based on the Whittlebury ideal only its slightly smaller (about 90 singers) and indoor , Scowie and Giff come every year and have done since it started.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Scuttlebutt
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 05:14 AM

When all men sing - is avialable from The Chantey Cabin see the web site www.chanteycabin.co.uk we also have copies of Scowies Book well illustrared with his own drawings

Both Derek Gifford and Scowie are friends and we will be sing them both at Easter at the UK Lancaster Maritime festival - four days of folk music GREAT

May you always run before the wind

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 09:21 AM

Hey Jan L -- if you would be so kind, please pass on my regards to Scowie -- it's been too long since I've seen him. Spoke with him on the phone my last trip over this past January, but I do miss seeing him.

I'll be over again this summer (late July) and then again next January. Perhaps I'll see you somewhere along the way -- I'll be at Warwick festival, Bodmin Folk Club and Sidmouth with my group The Johnson Girls -- if you're at any of these -- stop by and say hello -- it will be nice to meet you.

Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM

When you're in Sidmouth pop by the Middle Bar of the Anchor and say hello - we're the loonies in yellow Jude

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: JudeL
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 12:40 PM

If you stay long enough you'll probably hear "when all men sing"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When All Men Sing
From: Scuttlebutt
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 06:02 PM

Hi Joy

Will be happy to pass on your regards next week - how is Radio Mexico

By the way we sold one of the Johnson Girls CD's for the big festival in Portugal coming up in May

We were with Hughie on the Peking last september when we met - email me with the info on the tour

[e-mail]

May you always run before the wind

Jan