BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM

"Penalties for tax avoidance (not just evasion) should include confiscation of assets and imprisonment."

Point of Order, M'Lud.

There are no penalties for Tax Avoidance - it's perfectly legal and all companies and individuals with any sense indulge in it.

Tax Evasion, on the other hand, is illegal and carries penalties which can be very heavy.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

At least Mervyn King admitted to the TUC he was at least partly responsible for the financial crisis that lead to the recession, big of him since he won't be suffering the depravations and cuts that those whose lives and communities will be destroyed will have to.

What a wanker.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:58 AM

Part of the problem in this country is that people only read headlines, not arguments; and that includes politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Old Vermin
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:50 AM

Mandotim - couldn't post an Executive summary of all that, could you, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:31 AM

'Complict' should read 'complicit', sorry. Was that 100 we just passed?
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:16 AM

A lot of this thread seems to be following the logic that the only way to reduce the deficit is to cut public services. We are being fed this line by Government and a compliant Press to obscure the true nature of the choice. Governments have choices about how they cut deficits, and how far and fast they do so. Cutting the public sector workforce is one way; but it's pretty inefficient economically. By doing so, you put more people in the position of claiming benefits, which offsets the original cut. These people are less economically active, which inhibits economic growth. They don't pay tax any more, which further offsets the original cut. Irrespective of politics, basing 80% of your cuts strategy around public sector workforce cuts is economically dim. Making the cuts quickly and dogmatically is also risky; there is a 'tipping point' in most economies beyond which there is not enough economic activity to support the economically inactive; this point is closer than most politicians realise, particularly with an ageing population.
Other strategies could be considered, but don't seem to be on the agenda. Forcing the banks to repay taxpayers money or be nationalised is one approach, and could be done over a medium term period so the 'shock' to the banking system is negligible. Squeals from the banks should be ignored, and compared to their still obscene profits.
The tax system should be changed to an approach where the rich (and especially the super-rich)are forced to pay their share instead of avoiding payment. Penalties for tax avoidance (not just evasion) should include confiscation of assets and imprisonment. (The argument that 'the rich will just move abroad' has been shown to be utter nonsense, as experience of previous tax increases shows no correlation between tax rises and economic migration). Instead we have the disgusting situation where this Government is taking the bulk of tax increases from the poorest third of the population. Another approach; stop interfering in foreign wars, and stop pretending we are a nuclear force in the world. Have a small standing Armed Forces who are actually engaged in defending the UK itself, not US interests abroad.
Another approach; the public purse currently subsidises bad employers by paying support benefits to employees who are unable to live on the wages offered by the employer. Raise the minimum wage to a realistic level so that employers are paying the economic rate for work done, and remove the need for taxpayers to subsidise the profits of the company. There are many examples of huge companies making massive profits when the bulk of their workforce receive income support. (The hitherto supine Trade Union movement in this country has been complict in this, incidentally). Again, the employers argument that this will cost jobs has been demonstrated to be spurious, as the introduction and subsequent review of the minimum wage has been demonstrated to have no significant effect on employment levels.
Reintroduce the well-established economic dictum of 'reasonable profit', and tax companies and their shareholders heavily when this is exceeded.
All of these strategies are in place in one form or another in developed countries around the world; it's really just the UK (and to some extent the USA) who follow a model of capitalism that predetermines that the poor should always pay with either their jobs, their services or in taxes when things get tight.
To John MacKenzie; this isn't a left-wing knee-jerk response, it's a considered alternative to the economic barbarism (not Barberism!) that is being proposed. Economically speaking, all of these proposals have a greater chance of success than simply slashing and burning public services.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Old Vermin
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:08 AM

Crow is superficially well-placed to negotiate in that his members can make life miserable for the public by short strikes.

The problem is that the public can no longer afford his members' pay. For a well-paid public sector, we need a healthy private sector of sufficient size. This we do not have now. It seems to have been an illusion that we did over the last ten years or so. Painful.

The downturn coincides with labour-technology being established.

Crow, poor man, is like the cartoon character cycling in mid-air after going off a cliff. He can bluster, and there may be strikes, but he can't find more cash.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:57 AM

"Jim, you let the MPs off the hook over wages."
Sorry Richard - didn't mean to - let them all hang as far as I'm concerned
Jimn Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:24 AM

.



       What do we need unions for?




.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM

Tunesmith - that link is 2003. Surely it has got a lot worse since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:20 AM

Jim, you let the MPs off the hook over wages. Most of them (particularly conservatives and "New Labour" (ie traitors to the Labout cause - unlike a few honourable "usual suspects")) have their snouts in troughs other than salaries - directorships that are bribes to push the interests of specific companies in Parliament, and the expenses system set up by Margaret Thatcher as a covert pay rise, "charitable" trusts benefitting their offspring (the ones admitted to anyway) and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 08:07 AM

I've included a link showing the distribution of wealth in the UK.
It makes interesting reading.

Distribution of wealth in UK

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 07:49 AM

A blast from the past
Jim Carroll

PARLIAMENTARY POLKA
Or - Please Place in the Appropriate Receptacle Your Government White Paper

CAST
EMPLOYERS' FEDERATION became now the Confederation British Industry which represents the interests of British companies.
FEDERATION OF BANKERS is a professional body that sets Standards and exams for those who want to be bankers.
THE MONDAY CLUB was formed in 1961 by a group of Tory MPs who were objecting to some of the policies of the Conservative Prime Minister Harold MacMillan. The Monday Club has campaigned on law and order, the Family. on immigration ... it has empire nostalgia and is anti-Europe on nationalist grounds. It is to the far right of the far right,
ROY JENKINS Labour MP who was, at the time this song wras written, Home Secretary in Callaghan's government
Margaret Thatcher had been Secretary of State for Education and Science from 1970 to 1974 and in 1975 was elected leader of the Conservative party.

When prices keep on rising and your backs are to the wall,
The kids are needing clothing and you lack the wherewithal,
When economic crisis grabs the country by the earholes,
That's the time to rally 'round your leaders.
For the leaders of the nation, the Employers' Federation,
They know all the answers, and the Institute of Bankers
Know a way to save the day,
You've only got to sacrifice your pay.

When miners start demanding astronomical amounts
To swell their private fortunes in their numbered Swiss accounts,
It's then you'll hear the mighty voice of Westminster announce:
"Forward to the pits to get the coal out!"
Chaps with bowlers, umberellas,
Monday Clubbers (splendid fellas!
Ministers and royal pages—and they're not here for the wages
But because the time has come show the miners how it should be done.

When money-grubbing building workers vote to go on strike
And brutal pickets interfere with honest blacklegs' rights,
It's then that loyal Britishers are called upon to fight
To defend free enterprise and law and order.
Cops and TV commentators, lawyers, building speculators,
Mr. Jenkins and his judges, scabs who're paying off their grudges,
Use the law. It has no flaw.
To serve their interest, that is what it's for.

When disaffected mums and dads begin to bawl and shout.
Insisting that our education system's up the spout,
Remember Maggie Thatcher's there and she knows all about
Everything concerning education.
For she knows that kids of workers are just layabouts and shirkers.
To teach them would be folly and an utter waste of lolly,
Waste of time. Save the dough!
They're here to work, that's all they need to know.

So just remember when you feel inclined to criticise:
It's not for you to question or to ask the reason why.
Close your mouth and go on grafting till the day you die,
And win the thanks of those who own the nation.
They will con you, they'll mislead you, they will rob you, they will bleed you,
With a smile they freeze your wages, kill you off by easy stages
Till the day you pull the chain
And flush the whole caboodle down the drain.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:54 AM

"Strange that, becuase part of the big fat cat earners milking the country dry are Union Leaders."

Oh I see - the fat cats are the ones on 133,000 a year.

The slim cats are the ones who make 3,000,000 a year.

Well thanks for clarifying that Arthur.


I happen to think that the responsibility working as an elected representative in a Union is comparable to the responsibility of working as an elected representative in government, so he's probably around 50,000 overpaid.

But then he runs a significantly bigger organization than most elected politicians.


In addition, try and remember that he represents the views of the Union. They vote on their own policy. He is their representative.


To say he is expressing a view in spite of the workers is wrong.

He is the mouthpiece for their position.

They oppose the cuts.

He's doing exactly what he's paid to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:14 AM

"The present financial balls up as you would put it was handed on by the Labour Government"
Er no - the present financial balls up was handed on by a Labour Government, and an equally inept and corrupt Conservative opposition who are not just traditionally supported by big business that got Britain into the mess that it is now in, but whose ranks are made up of the very businessmen, fananceers and investors whos corruption and greed caused the slump.
Any suggestion that "things are panning out" may be quickly dispelled by a cursory glance at the recent "let's screw the poor again" budget which was a clear indication that nothing has really changed.
All which goes to show that, for all its weaknesses, we need a Trades Union movement (that you so significantly choose to target in your attacke, carefully ignoring the real culprits) to protect us from these corrupt and inapt bastards.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 05:22 AM

Jim
The present financial balls up as you would put it was handed on by the Labour Government (whether or not it was there fault is irrelavant).
The new government has to try and sort it.
Between the old and the new, we still have an almighty cock up.
I am not happy at all with how things are panning out and I do think that top line salaries are fleecing this country. How much of this wealth actually stays in this country?
I wish we could get more manufacturing investment instead of services etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 05:07 AM

"Well Jim there seems to be a fair number of people sniping at what top directors earn etc etc."
People are sniping at what top directors earn BECAUSE IT IS THEIR INCOMPETENCE THAT GOT US IN THE MESS WE ARE IN AT PRESENT.
It is the politicicians greed and corruption and the finacial pundits bad advice and big buisnesses' "couldn't give a fuck what happens to the country" attitude that caused this crash - I don't see you putting an argument that this isn't the case.
I couldn't agree more about TU salaries being disgraceful - it is one of the reasons many of them have been bought into being part of the establishment, but it is totally irrelevant to his discussion, unless you can prove that the trades unions have somehow had a part in the present financial balls-up.
Whatever I might think of the salaries of the politicians, law administrators... whoever, it is the combined forces of big business's greed and mismanagement and politicians incompetence and corruption that has caused the closure of our local a A&E department, threatened my pensions, thrown thousands on the dole..... how far do you want to go?
Yes, in the long run salaries are important; the surgeon who operated on me recently takes home fabulous amounts of money - but if I had to choose between his pay packet and that of a banker who has just been awarded equivilant to five years wages of an ordinary worker as a bonus for making a balls-up - I know where my vote would go.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:19 AM

Well Jim there seems to be a fair number of people sniping at what top directors earn etc etc. Just thought it would be nice to see what Trade Union leaders earn in comparison to what the very poorly paid members they look after.
You seem to have argued that it doesn't matter what people earn.
Strange that, becuase part of the big fat cat earners milking the country dry are Union Leaders.
12% pay increases etc, disgraceful, whilst the poorly paid are suffering more and more.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Anne Lister
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:19 AM

What's the point of striking? Well, it might well be the only way a lot of people have to make sure their situation is noticed by the general public, as a lot of stuff that's going on isn't getting much attention from the media.
Public services are under threat in a way I haven't seen before - talking locally, a number of local councils are not recruiting anyone on a permanent contract and one (Cardiff) is filling all vacancies from a temp agency that they run which pays a maximum rate of £6.50 per hour. I know this to be true as I have done their assessment tests, come out with a top score and yet been offered jobs I can't afford to take. Another council is reputed to have sacked all of its employees and re-employed them at 25% lower salaries than before - I haven't seen this reported anywhere officially,which is why I say "reputed". My job within Education Inclusion (working with kids excluded from the mainstream school system) seems to have come to a full stop, although before the summer we were flooded with pupils needing teachers. Where have they gone? I've been trying to find a "proper" job, as it seems that working for agencies and for a number of different employers now bars me from getting loans and mortgages - but it also seems that my husband's "proper" job working for the local authority is also no longer considered safe.
In my case there's no point in striking as it just means more money I'm not earning and other people are available from other agencies to cover the work I'm not doing ...but if there was a way for me to wave a banner in the air and march down Whitehall to get someone to take notice of the plight we're in - trust me, I'd be there. Lots of people are losing their jobs, the social security budget is being cut and yet there are no other jobs to apply for. What are we supposed to live on?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 03:38 AM

"How much do Union Leaders earn?"
This is a very strange way of reasoning.
If I am asked to obey a law, I don't first ask what the lawmakers, or the judges, or the police superintendants take home in their pay packet; I do so because it is the right thing to do for me and my family and my community.
If somebody comes canvassing for a politician, I don't first find out what he or she is earning before I vote for them; I support them (or not) because I agree (or don't) with their policies and think that is the best alternative for me and mine.
If someone rattles a charity box under mt nose, I don't ask how much the organisers earn before I support it; I do so on the basis of the cause.
Whenever I have supported trades union activities, I have never opted out because I believed that my TU officials were earning too much (even though I might have thought they were); I have done so because it was best for me, it enabled me to have some small say in my working life, it gave me a voice and might just improve the lives of me and those around me.
The alternative would have been for me to say and do nothing and allow myself to be screwed by people who were all earning infinitely more than I was.
As I said - a very strange way of reasoning (or not).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:49 AM

BTW that panorama interview followed a report on elderly couple being "enabled" to live independently. They showed the woman making tea in a rather grotty kitchen for her stroke ridden husband. A support worker visits them I don't know how often. Earlier in the report it showed where the council had put hand rails in the home to help the gentleman move around. But the rooms were packed with furniture and junk and the woman did not have the strength or energy to clear it. That woman carer is literally trapped in her care situation. That was the extent of "enablement for independent living." Quality of life is not mentioned but one could infer it was not good for this couple.

I'd like to add that Jo's Blog (isn't that clever) she writes as much about her holidays and what she did on the weekend as she does about the "Transformation" (what ECC calls the changes it is making to the council and the services it provides). IT contract broken at couple million cost to tax payers and tendered to IBM. The ECC employee who worked this is currently in the hot seat because he is a former IBM employee as are several other family members he hired to work for ECC. The manager who empire built the properties portfolio belonging to ECC is on is also suspended and the EPF is about to be outsourced. We are in constant battle with companies we do business with, because the EPF has not been paying invoices. They don't have enough staff.

Soon the council will be paying rent to a private company for the buildings it once owned. How is this saving money?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:46 AM

Funny, I remember other saying about banks that they need to pay to attract the best.

One rule for the bankers, another for the workers. Same old same old.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 02:00 AM

Rob Crow of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union is enjoying a 12% pay rise from the last calendar year, lifting his salary £133,183, reports the Daily Express today. Both general secretaries of the union Unite, Derek Simpson and Tony Woodley, are also earning six figure sums.

This comes at a time when millions of workers represented by unions have taken pay cuts and pay freezes. It begs the question as to whether leaders of unions which are funded by their members should enjoy pay increases that are multiples of the market rates when their members are losing their jobs and experiencing pay cuts and pay freezes.

Rob Crow of the RMT is leading efforts to take strike action over the August bank holiday weekend which will seriously disrupt the operations of the London Underground or tube. Derek Simpson of Unite has also threatened to shut down a number of airports in the UK in strike action against the British Airport Authority.

Transport Minister Norman Baker says that Bob Crow may be talking about fairness but should be judged by his actions, continuing to say that Mr Crow would rather 'feather his nest' than work with the government to put together an affordable British transport system.

A spokesman for London Major Boris Johnson says that any individual serving in a public capacity taking a salary increase of 12% in this economic climate is "not living in the real world".

Commonly substantial salaries are awarded to individuals in senior positions at large organisations but union members may question whether the leaders they are funding deserve to be paid nearly as much as the Prime Minister plus enjoy a salary increase that no other public sector worker will enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

"Finance director........well qualified!!!"

No Bonzo ... I can see how you might make that mistake given the gross incompetence of the financial sector, but finance directors are actually supposed to be able to think and communicate coherently and form intelligent judgements.

You never know, they might let you clear up horse shit at the local polo club ...

... hold on ... so thats where you get it all from ...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 06:07 PM

Others expect to be immune because banking thieves appear to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 06:05 PM

Joanna Killian on Panorama

As yet, she has not announced that she or any of her entourage are taking pay cuts. In fact a fair few of them just got bonuses.

I am waiting for the axe to fall. I am back office in a non statutory service. I am 52 with physical disability. I always planned to work until I physically and mentally couldn't any more. Retirement is not an option for poor folk like me. Think I will get another job? That's ok. I can claim the benefits that won't be there.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:55 PM

Whereas Bonzo would be unlikely to get past the interview stages ...


Checkout walla.....agreed

Finance director........well qualified!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:35 PM

"How do we pull back the massive debt that we have"

Duh ...

Well its obvious isn't it.

There's only one way, and thats to grind the poorest in society down into the dirt with the sole of an expensive Gucci heel, to cut health care and to reduce the number of police on our streets.

There is no other way is there.

There is only one way to skin a cat.


OKAY!!

We get the point - there is a deficit.

But fucking up the economy and the country is not the only way to handle it.

It is not the only alternative.


I am nearing the end of my studies.

There are young men and women at my University in my year who have worked hard to get where they are.

They have got so close to the finish line and they should be preparing to finish up in a blaze of glory and enter society as well qualified and trained individuals who can contribute something really useful.

Only in the case of some of these young adults, the rug has been pulled out from under their feet and they won't be able to finish what they have spent years working towards.

Well done Cameron.

The unis are being told to charge more money,

they are having to cut down on admissions,

many students are avug to quit,

many who got good A-Levels are missing out on places and will have to compete with next years crop for scraps.

those from poor areas will find it harder to qualify for Uni as money has been taken out of their schools to fund the new independant rich parents schools of philanthropy and to fund the new academies which qualify for extra funding and special status on the basis that they are already doing fine.

This is happening at primary and secondary level.

And when their shit schools fail to meet their needs, kids in poor areas are going to have no youth clubs or playgrounds as all that kind of "wsteful spending" is being cut too.


But HOORAY for big society - because in areas where they can afford it, local communities are going to take the place of public services and pay for their own playgrounds ... and of course they'll get financial incentives to do so ... it helps if you don't have to work because hubby earns enough and the nanny looks after the kids ... lots of time to play at Big Society and Designer education.


Before this election I was not a labour man, but I can't wait for the next election and to see the end of the condems.

Hurry up labour, elect your leader and form the next government!

5 years will fly by!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:19 PM

If I criticise someone with a dog, does that make me a cat person?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:00 PM

How much do Union Leaders earn?
Do they lose anything if they call the members out?
Who do the Unions fund - Labour or Conservatives?
Who do the unions support - Labour or Conservatives?
Who would benefit most, if the Unions brought the Government to its knees?
Which party got the most votes at the last general election?

How do we pull back the massive debt that we have and which Government left that for the next Government, irrespective of who caused it?

I don't trust any of the parties, but somehow we have a coalition and they are trying to do what they think is best. There is a lot I don't agree with, but causing a new election does not solve the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:44 PM

"The difference is, we get to choose the people we elect to the government."
Yeah - and maybe one day we'll get to have a say on what the'll do after we elect them - whoops, was that a pig I just saw flying past?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:43 PM

Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed - Show of Hands

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:13 PM

Daughter made redundant today, 2nd time since graduating two and a half years ago. Not a raffiawork or media studies graduate, but an engineer. Not caused by strikes, or by Union militancy or resistance to change. Caused purely by the wanton destruction of the economy by Thatcher and the idiots who have continued her policy of running down manufacturing industry and relying on gambling, sorry, "services".

They closed the pits, and now we either import coal or destroy 300 million years of history to open- cast it. We haven't stopped using it, and we can't even get at the stuff that's still down there because it would be too dangerous to open the mines again.

Those responsible shouldn't be given bonuses, they should be despised. Along with the toadies who suck up to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM

"Everyone has a boss. Either the greedy fat cats who own the companies and want us to work for pennies with no benefits, or, the government.
The difference is, we get to choose the people we elect to the government."

That's not the only difference Kendall .....

US national Bob Diamond aged 59 has been chosen by Barclays bank as its next chief executive.
Described earlier this year amid public outrage at banker bonuses in general, by Peter Mandelson as "the unacceptable face of banking," he already has an estimated fortune of about 100 million pounds, thanks to massive cash and shares bonuses earned while heading Barclays Capital.

As chief executive, Diamond will receive an annual salary of 1.35 million pounds but could earn millions more in bonuses, Barclays said.

The annual salary of an MP is £65,738 as of 1 April 2010 although they may claim fixed claim allowances to cover, for example, staff costs, travel expenses and the cost of running an office.

Cabinet ministers receive a salary of £134,565 which includes the MP's salary of £65,738

The Prime Minister has announced that he will be taking a salary of £142,500.

Specialist ITU Nurse NHS
(ENB100 + 10 years experience)
Nursing Quals: RGN
Annual Salary:
£19,935

Newly Qualified Nurse Organisation: NHS
(D Grade, first post)
Nursing Quals: RGN
Annual Salary:
£15,445

- Purely an 'apolitical' observation

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:06 PM

Everyone has a boss. Either the greedy fat cats who own the companies and want us to work for pennies with no benefits, or, the government. The difference is, we get to choose the people we elect to the government.
Take your pick.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 02:53 PM

PS My 'public sector' working partner is now so exhausted from his recent FIFTY percent addition to his week's workload, is now so buggered with pain at weekends that he's worried about his working future. Maybe IT experts aught to take his place?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM

"I don't wish any public sector workers ill, but....."
It never fails does it; a bunch of incompetent nomarks drop the economy in the clarts, they continue to milk the system for all they can, while at the same time they close our hospitals, raise our taxes, cut our services, threaten our pensions - and what do we do - we start winging about those of us in the same situation as we are earn.
Jay-sus - no wonder they get away with it every time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 01:12 PM

"All they will do if they go on strike is reduce this country to a similar state to that which Greece is in now.
The pound will drop, the country's credit rating will be reduced, and the threatened double dip recession will be the most likely outcome.
It appears to me that what they are saying is this.
Please coalition government, don't ruin the country.
Let us do it for you!




Here comes the doctrinaire left wing backlash !!!!!"quote john mackenzie
    hardly apolitical

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 12:57 PM

"why should they expect be immune from the consequences of the situation we're all now in?"

Because unlike C-Ship 'telephone sanitisers' and their ilk, they fill basic roles to ensure the fundamental needs of society are met. They take away rubbish, they lock up criminals, they heal wounds and so-on. No huge bonuses. They are the flour in the bread.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 10:49 AM

John Mac, somebody did indeed mention Cuba (Ake did) and it was in the context of a recent interview in which Castro conceded that the Cuban model was indeed in need of revision. That model nevertheless, and for all its faults, delivred extraordinary levels of healthcare and education for all in the face of punitive economic hardships imposed by successive US admins that prefer the Battista style of autocrisy.

Your claim that "strikes are self-defeating" is a generalisation that reeks of blind stupidity, or doctrinaire right-wing claptrap. You may be apolitical but you are plainly prejudiced a well.

You say you are familiar with the coalmining industry, so you may remember a strike by the National Union of Mineworkers in 1972. As a result of that strike an inquiry was set up - the Wilberforce inquiry - to examine the remuneration of mineworkers. That inquiry produced a report which was adopted and implemented in full - as a result of which mmineworkers were promoted from 16th to second place in the league table of manual workers. Not a single TUC-affiliated union sought to re-establish the previous differentials. Sorry john, but without a strike the mineworkers would have moved only from 16th to 15th position - where the NCB's last pre-strike offer would have taken them.

Do you think that every other improvement in working conditions and remuneration for employees since the 19th century resulted simply from the benevolence of employers?

Howard Jones: I worked a few years on newspapers, then 20 years in the public sector, then back to the private sector for 15 more years. I found that on the whole people worked hard in both arenas. Thre are always those (me included) who push the boundaries from time to time, but not more so inone sector than the other. I suspect your generalisation is founded on ignorance or perhaps an over-gullible dependence on our wonderful newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 10:37 AM

"The purpose of the public sector is to provide public services"
Jim replied "How does this differ in any way from any other job that gives a service to the public?"

Not at all, but you've only quoted part of my sentence. I went on to say "not to provide jobs". To listen to some public sector union leaders, they seem to think the public services exist to provide jobs for their members.

I don't wish any public sector workers ill. But why should they expect be immune from the consequences of the situation we're all now in?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 10:14 AM

They are descriptions of predictable Pavlovian responses.
I don't know who Pavlov voted for either :)

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 09:51 AM

Let's see.

Bankers ruin the economy - the government gives them trillions.

Strikers might ruin the economy - the government sends in shock troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 09:36 AM

Howard, you are a property professional (go on, make me guess), and you are now unemployed. I guess that untrammelled capitalism crashing down around our ears might have had something to do with it?

We all have our personal experiences to relate but there is a bigger picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Lox
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 09:28 AM

Whereas Bonzo would be unlikely to get past the interview stages ...

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 09:24 AM

I think Crow has the intelligence of someone who's sole ambition is to work in Tescos!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 08:00 AM

"My views are my own, and not coloured by doctrine of either the left or the right.
Of course I expect people to disagree with me, while others concur, that's a fact of life.
However just because you disagree with someone, there is no need to denigrate them personally. "

What total hypocrisy! What do you think phrases like "Blind stupidity" and "Here comes the doctrinaire left wing backlash !!!!!" are?

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:52 AM

As an electrician you, if you were self employed, or your employer if not had a choice of whether or not you would provide your service, and the basis of this would have been whether or not the individual, or property developer, or even local authority, depending on who purchased your services were prepared to pay what you charged.

Your would be classed as service industry as opposed to public service.

The role of public services is to provide services to communities that are not driven by a profit motive. This means that unprofitable services are still provided as they are needed.   Because the services are unprofitable, (but still may generate income) local authorities and governments raises taxes, rates, etc.

As public money is raised to pay for these services, we elect representative who we hope they can manage our money properly.

A grey area is where private companies win tenders for public services. In this case I would not class the providers as public servants as they are delivering a contract and as long as the terms of the contract are met, the providers are outside of the public sector accountability.

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:28 AM

Quote from John McKenzie further up the thread:

"Anyway, I'm apolitical, ..." (!)

I beg to differ!

Subject: RE: BS: Blind stupidity - TUC Congress
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 04:18 AM

"The purpose of the public sector is to provide public services"
How does this differ in any way from any other job that gives a service to the public? As an electrician it was my job to provide a safe and efficient electrical system for those I worked for - it didn't in any way reduce my right to a fair wage and security of employment.
What you are describing are inefficiancies in management - maybe it is the management that needs re-organisation rather than those at the workface.
If your suggested review was to be aimed at the whole system, from top to bottom, maybe you would have a valid point - anybody like to take bets on the likelihood of that happening?
Jim Carroll