'Elite' Jams. Part Two.

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 09:42 PM

I've been lurking this thread(s) since the beginning and everyone has just been great. Most of the groupings in this area are so structured or dominated...I tried but in most cases it was a pain in the ass. When I met Rick at Niagra we talked some about this scene around here in Columbus and around Ohio, and I told him a bit about how I'd changed tacks on selling my dulcimers. For me, there is NOTHING much worse than a dulcimer fest (hammered or Appalachian) because the entire bunch is so wrapped up in "Instrument Zen"......I can't go on, just drives me nuts. I do have some friends amongst them, but they get to feeling the same way and I have no idea why any of us ever go.....and anymore, we mainly don't.

But last night I stopped by a thread requesting lyrics to "Stealin'"(back to my same old used to be) that triggered some semi-suppressed memories.......Suppressed because they were too good, not painful. I was reminded of a time and place long past and the camaraderie and fun that filled all of us in that time, in that place. Being a 'Catter has brought me much joy, so I spent today "morosely happy" or "joyfully sad," remembering the then, but loving the now. Ferrara mentioned a sing around in DC and I truly expect that the best of what I've read here will happen and not the worst......Hell, we're MUDCATTERS and I would expect no less. We've come to know each other in such a way that once again I might be able to bring back that feeling from so long ago.

Sent Big RiB a message and in his reply he said that he's so wound up and excited about the FSGW, and his expectations are so great, nothing could live up to it........I know how he feels...but I think he's wrong.

Spaw

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: emily rain
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 08:27 PM

aww, peter, such woe! buck up, little camper. in my vast experience, i have yet to attend one of these sessions that everyone rages about. of course, some of that is what tiger suggests: just not going.

"hmm? you say persons x y and z are going to be there? *yawn* i think i'll make an early evening of it... *stretch* see ya tomorrow!"

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Tiger
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 04:59 PM

Peter.....We just won't go to those sessions, right? Seriously, the same thing happens in lots of situations and the best thing to do is always the same - vote with your feet!

.....Tiger

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Bert
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 04:49 PM

Yes, it's kinda sad isn't it PeterT. And it's only the arrogant few that cause the problem. Usually boils down to five or six thick skinned, greedy oafs in a roomful of people.

Bert.

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 04:27 PM

Confession: this thread (and the earlier ones) is the most depressing thing I ever read on this site. I always open it in dread, and the dread is constantly confirmed. What a struggle to achieve simple decency -- and you are after all talking about singing together and playing music together. I always want to go off to the Human Burial Ground when I read this thread, and die. Sorry -- honest reaction.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: MMario
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 03:55 PM

well, according to the group dynamics/communication course my entire company had to go thorugh....

it is as important for a "facilatator" (heaven forbid they call someone a leader/manager/chairman(person)) to know when to stop a person from talking as it is to encourage input.

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 03:39 PM

IMHO a jam session is like a round table discussion. In order to participate you have to have some understanding of the topic. Then a leader may or may not be needed. But there is a difference between a leader and a cop.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Bert
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 11:52 AM

I really think that all sessions need to be led. If there is no clear leader then usually the session will deteriorate to the stage where the only few singing are those who are ill mannered enough to take someone else's turn.

I was at a session last Saturday and someone said to me "Why aren't you singing? You have some interesting songs. Don't be shy. Just barge in"

Well, I had gone to the session because I thought it was a social occasion. If I had wanted to 'barge in' I would have gone and played rugby instead.

So, if you want to run a session, make sure that you have a leader, otherwise the majority of your members (those who are polite enough to have normal social behavior) will not get to sing.

Bert.

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: MMario
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 10:30 AM

Years ago - I discovered where the musicians at one ren-faire held their early morning "warm-ups". This was after gate opened, but before any of them had scheduled shows, and was off away from the heavily traveled areas of the faire. Being the music addict I am, I would go and sit and listen as they "did their thing" - which could vary from individuals performing something they were working on and asking for comments from the others, to full bore jamming on numbers common to the group as a whole. Mostly it was to ease them into their day gradually, but a heck of a lot more fun for everyone then vocal excercises...

Now mind you, I was a patron, regular enough that they did know me - by face at least, but still a patron, and these were all pro musicians. To my incredible delight, they started in on a song one day, and a few bars in, the leader stopped the entire group, turned to me and came out "And why aren't you singing? I KNOW you know this!"

Anyway, the result was that when i was able to be there (this faire was 500 miles from home) I was from that time considered to be "one of them" - told where the morning jam would be if it had moved, invited to participate, even lead a few songs. A few other patrons were in similair circumstances.

Obviously, given the situation this could not be an "open" session. (Among other things, it was not a "scheduled show" and the management frowned on impromptu...so they HAD to restrict size) However, the limitations were NOT based on talent or skill level. And I have never, before or since, run across a group of people who paid more attention to each others performances...

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 09:52 AM

it's true you need people willing to take the lead, in a jam, people with the confidence, and hopefully the talent, to make the group work ... and if you set the tone as one that is purposely inclusive (ie invites everyone to particpates) and if you encourage and appreciate everyone's contribution - you will be successful.

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 08:58 AM

Barry, the dumbek (not bongo) player you mentioned was in the middle of a pissing contest with someone and everyone else in the session got punished because of it.

Any type of session needs a core of folks with big egos. Not the "I'm better than everybody else" type, but the "I'm good and I know it, but I want to hear you, too" type. A session of shy introverted people will die out in a hurry. My advice on starting a session (if you can pretend I know what I'm talking about) is to try to make sure a few very confident, assertive, but generous people are going to be there and invite everyone else.

The song circle idea idea is a good one if, like Liam said, you make people feel welcome even if they don't want to lead a song/tune. I quit going to a session because of that. As someone who didn't have a lot of confidence, it scared the hell out of me.

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 02:00 AM

emily - open, but word of mouth advertizing is a good way to keep some level of control over how a session grows. Another idea I like, is the round robin approach ... that is each particpant plays one song, and the next persos plays, and so on ... encourage all to play, but some will refrain, only wishing to play/sing along. If you make them feel OK with this, you wil begin to create an inclusive, and welcoming atmosphere ... good luck

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: emily rain
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 01:53 AM

i'm currently struggling with thoughts of putting together a sing-around... i'm of the hyper-inclusive school of jamming, but i also recognize that once a jam gets established in the community, it takes on a certain character that perpetuates itself as individuals come and go. if a session starts out being elitist, or ego-dominated, or filled with folks who like to talk loudly over others' music, it tends to continue to be that way.

i'm wondering: is it considered elitist to have the first occasion be "open", but perhaps "under-advertised", and go ahead and send out special invitations to the people i _really_ want to come? if drop-ins wanted to participate i would joyfully welcome them, but i'd like the first core group to reflect what i see as the ideal jamming energies: creative, supportive, safe, and courteous. and (ironically) hyper-incluseive.

could this even be possible?

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: j0_77
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 01:51 AM

People who don't listen, mbee they don't like what's bein played Mbee they heard the tune/song 1298 times before. Mbee they are trying to get a date? Mbee folks these people are tone deaf or stone deaf but great lip readers -

Drink up yer pint and gimme a blashhhht of that Galway Reel - while I'm talkin to the barman :)

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Aug 99 - 01:09 AM

Hi Jeri, I feel bad for you & your session with a bongo player that won't turn himself off for any reason. I sang there last time I saw you & I almost put my hand over his drum so he couldn't play while I sang, he knows I sing with my drum so if I weren't going to accompany myself my would he think that I'd want him to play on something that the drum was not appropriate for IMHO as the singer of the song. Oh well. Hope to see you soon. Barry

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 99 - 11:43 PM

aint 'group dynamics' FUN?...I'd LOVE to videotape a few sessions/sings and re-run it for certain people to show them exactly how things fell apart when so-and-so changed the mood, or so-and-so did 3 in a row...etc...it is a never-ending problem

and if a few of my DEAR friends knew how much I hate it when they come in, sing a nice song...then proceed to stand at the edge of the circle and gab until someone 'begs' them for another gem!!...folks, if you can't be bothered to LISTEN to others politely, then don't bother to SING for them...(I have been to-- and given --parties where a room was set aside for chatting, and folks who HAD to catch up on the latest gossip were politely, but firmly ,sent there!)

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Aug 99 - 11:18 PM

Jen - and the jam sessions should be places where you feel comfortable, and able to contribute, and even though you may hear or appreciate players with more developed skills in that session, you find a place to contribute to the session - and your contribution is appreciated.

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Jen
Date: 23 Aug 99 - 09:13 PM

And then you'd have people like me who are too shy to contribute and would think that everyone there was a lot better than myself... having never been to a jam session(oh, but I can dream), and if, perhaps, I wasn't very fast playing or suchlike, and someone asked me to leave or not play, I'd die of the shame and probably never come back.*g*

Anyhow, my 2 cents!

Jen

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Aug 99 - 08:55 PM

Jeez, Rick, I read your message and it reminded me of just about everything I ever got pissed at in a session. And it all comes down to rudeness. Moving in on people until they can't play (happened to me last friday) stealing your chair or asking you to move because they happen to like the spot you're in, talking loudly when someone's trying to play, hogging the session by either not ever stopping or by playing louder than everyone else. Strangely enough, I've never encountered anywhere I've ever played. Now I need to calm down!

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Aug 99 - 07:49 PM

I've been to some jams where I ended up totally livid at a person! Never because they were an excellent player. Everytime because they were just so F******* RUDE and INSENSITIVE to the music, and hence the other players.

Sorry, I rarely lose my temper. I'm back to being happy again.

Rick

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 23 Aug 99 - 11:53 AM

"Open sessions should be just that; open. As so many in this thread have pointed out, the most developed talent learns from all other levels, especially with music. I have seen in session after session, even the least developed talent has a reason to contribute!"

This expresses the Irish viewpoint that I have known and loved! Long live high craic!

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Aug 99 - 11:05 AM

I have kept up with this original thread, and considered all the points of view, and the more I think about the concept 'elite jam' the more my blood boils!

While it is true there are times when it is most appropriate for players of similar and/or complimentary skill levels to meet and 'jam' - these sessions should never be represented in any way as 'open'. They are, almost by definintion, closed to invitation only attendees. And even then, these sessions are often, performances, rehearsals or auditions, albeit in an informal setting/s. They should not be confused with the open to public participation 'sessions' that seem to be popular with music enthusiasts worldwide.

The thread started with a story about a session leader excluding players of perceived 'lessor' skill. I think that session leader is a poor one, and that session will probably die a slow, quiet death - thereby resolving the leadership problem. Or, the others in the session will speak up and move the bum out!

Open sessions should be just that; open. As so many in this thread have pointed out, the most developed talent learns from all other levels, especially with music. I have seen in session after session, even the least developed talent has a reason to contribute!

Subject: 'Elite' Jams. Part Two.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Aug 99 - 08:10 PM

The thread's Gettin' a bit long in the tooth, but the opinions are still great.

Rick