BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:20 PM

where I live there are no Halal butchers, there are plenty of butchers who use local grown produce.
the best meat in my opinion is that that is grown and fed only on grass or hay or silage during the winter, hay is preferable to silage.
of course for those lucky enough to live in new zealand south island beef can be reared outside all the year round.
that would be possible here in ireland if farmers went back to KERRY COWS [OR THE RELATED DEXTER]because they are hardier and can cope with being outside in ireland all the year round.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:45 PM

Most New Zealand cows are in the North Island. I grew up in Hamilton, NZ - we were told at school that the countryside immediately around us had the highest density of cattle in the world. I can well believe it, though probably the battery farms for cattle they have in the Czech Republic have beaten the record now. NZ had huge problems with land erosion due to overstocking, whole hillsides slipping away.

One of the most repulsive things I've ever seen done to an animal was at the agricultural research institute at Massey University (Palmerston North, NZ). It was a cow with a foot-wide rubber bung surgically implanted in its side. This connected to its stomach. The idea was that it made it easier for the researchers to analyze the stomach contents. Yes, it was free-range, but.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lox
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM

Any half decent chef will tell you that local produce is aways best.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:26 PM

You are forgetting leveller that we have tea at 4pm in the south, and dinner in the evening!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:29 AM

Turkey is a very popular place for the UK traveller to visit for holidays and you would expect food to be prepared in the traditional way without question the same as in Morrocco, Tunisia and Egypt. I can't imagine every single traveller is going to think about how the food was prepared come lunchtime. As for the non-Halal countries there is no guarantee that they are going to be any more humane. Spain has little regard for the suffering of bulls for sport let alone anything else. As long as an establishment has a notice to inform what is Halal and what is not I can't see a problem I suppose it could be set out far apart from non-Halal instead of next to or in a completely different area for somewhere like Tesco like they do in a Turkish food store. I don't like the thought of suffering either but even if I stick to veggie meals and vegetarian cheeses it isn't going to make a difference to the practises of how animals are treated it's only going to make me sleep better at night. Not so long ago there was footage of workers in a well known turkey farm in UK being captured on film using turkeys as cricket bats by swinging them by their necks causing a great deal of suffering to the poor things so you can't always guarantee cruelty free meat production.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:24 AM

The main problem with Halal is it doesn't allow pork sausages!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:55 AM

"Ah, apologies Boko, I've just realised what you meant - you're having a corned beef sandwich for your tea! Enjoy!"

You are thinking of the Vesteys of course, my wife's grandfather did business with Blue Star Line, owned by the Vesteys. In fact one of my mother in law's stories was about when the Vesteys visited their house.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:44 AM

I suppose the only good thing is that pigs can breath a sigh of relief for once!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 05:08 AM

manitas at home says Halal doesn't allow pork sausages.

Yeah, in theory...

I was in Azerbaijan a few years ago, which portrays itself as a Shia Muslim state. Albeit a Muslim state with a state owned brewery, but there you go.

Having been a Soviet state all those years, Soviet traditions are somewhat strong, and this includes eating pork. Ironically, it translates from Azeri into both Russian and English as "white beef."

I was in a huge market in Baku and asked about the pork a guy was selling, and how he squared it with his beliefs. before my mate could translate for me, the guy guessed what I was rattling on about, put his arm around me and said in halting english. "It's OK my friend, it is all halal." (!)

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Sep 10 - 11:04 AM

I would ask those who are concerned about 'proper' slaughter of livestock, or about eating meat at all...at what point in our history did these concerns become relevant?
Human beings are omnivores and this is a major factor in our survival. We are here partly because we are, and have been, able to eat almost anything handy. We and our ancestors have eaten meat for ...what?...5 million years? Ideas about 'humane' killing are fairly recent on that scale. As we have learned about disease, and had the luxury of taking the time to adapt, cleanliness has become important, but concern over whether a cow or sheep is 'stunned' or not is a subjective attitude. I have no problem with making the process as clean, quick and 'easy' as possible, but I submit that extreme concern for the animal's mental state in the last minutes of its life is simply a personal projection of various other beliefs.
   The "law of the jungle" means that some animals are hunted, killed and consumed by other animals, and on the whole a bird or deer..or cow... slaughtered by humans for human consumption suffers far less than one killed by a natural predator.

(It is also the case that total 'vegans' must be very careful to get proper nourishment, as meat provides us with necessary parts of our requirements, and abstaining requires study)

I once knew two young women who announced they were going to become vegetarians. A friend of mine asked them if this decision was based on health, on religious principle...or on "BBES". They looked puzzled and asked, "What do you mean, "BBES"?. He replied, "That is "Big Brown Eyes Syndrome".... well, a few days later they came in and agreed that it WAS BBES, and that they really had no particular religious or medical reason to refrain from eating some meat, though they would try to temper their diet with study or alternatives.
   I like that attitude, and I support fully the idea of KNOWING as much as possible about the sources of one's food and its preparation, while also gaining some real perspective about our history AS omnivores and the place of various rituals.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:05 AM

"That is "Big Brown Eyes Syndrome"

I love the Big Brown Eyes Sysndrome in that I love seeing farm animals, especially rare breed pigs. I realise, however, that for them to exist they have to be bred for a purpose - and that purpose is for food.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:08 AM

"You are thinking of the Vesteys"

I have no idea who or what Vesteys is (don't they make curries in a box?). I was thinking Fray Bentos.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 12:11 PM

BBES is hard to combat. I almost forgot another woman I knew many years ago who told of her family buying a very young pig for the purpose of raising it to be 'holiday dinner'. They kept it in a pen behind a shed, and on its side they painted the word FOOD, just to keep things straight and head off undue familiarity with it.
   She related that a common remark during those months was "Who's going to go out and 'feed' FOOD?"

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 04:56 PM

Personally, I love to go and say hello to my (water) buffalo steaks every now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:46 AM

A few days ago I decided to take breakfast at Subway and asked for the mega-breakfast. I was told there were no sausages so I left, muttering that they never seemed to have sausages. The server called out after me that they were Halal. At the time I wondered why they didn't just serve beef sausages but it occured to me since that a) the shop had no declaration of a Halal policy and b) they were still serving bacon!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:54 AM

I must admit I have a bit of the 'Big Brown Eyes Syndrome'myself, yes I go gooey over baby lambs and calves, foals, puppies, kittens you name it. All the way through growing up I have always maintained that I would never eat Thumper, Bambi or Daffy ever - until the I went to a popular Chinese Restaurant in the city here and they served some delicious crispy duck as part of the suggested menu and I am ashamed to say that it was delicious.

As a matter of interest has anyone tried any Halal meat to comment on how it tastes, does it make any difference to the quality of the meat? I thought I heard once that the process of how cattle are slaughtered in standard abbetoirs here in the UK made a difference to how tough the meat was because of the sudden jolt. (Sorry to be graphic!).

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:27 AM

It is common knowledge to hunters..(those who hunt for food and not just for 'sport')..that an animal which runs a lot, either before or after being shot, tastes more 'gamey' and tough because of the buildup of certain chemicals in the muscles. The quieter one has been, the more tender the meat. The famous (but very expensive) Kobe beef of Japan is bred for tenderness and processed carefully, sometimes being actually 'massaged' to improved quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: romanyman
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:48 AM

halal meat has been sold here for over twenty years quite openly, where the hell have you been lizzie

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:14 AM

"The server"

Waiter or waitress please!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:54 PM

They were not a waiter or waitress. They did not wait on tables. They stood behind the counter and served. Server is the correct word.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,carnivore
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 07:45 AM

Discussing the aesthetic quality of the meat is rather missing the point of the op.
In UK we have regulations to make meat production more humane.
Methods regarded as inhumane have been permitted, but only on religious grounds, otherwise it was and is illegal.
It used to be the case that we could assume humane slaughter unless we chose otherwise for religious reasons.
That choice has been denied us, and we now have no way of knowing.
The law of the land has been changed without any democratic procedure.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:14 AM

I've not been in here for weeks. It did not take me too long to remember why...

Same old Islamaphobia. Same old arguments. Same old idiots.

See you in another couple of months.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM

This has nothing to do with Islamaphobia, actually.

It's about the animals suffering in the least possible way.
It's about the public's right to know, and their right to choose. It's about what is right and what is wrong.

And...it's about WHY this has been allowed to happen without anyone having to tell anyone else.

Just the other day a lady in Devon found out that her local abbatoire killed according to the rules of halal.

Why?   I'm sorry, but....WHY? It is NOT racist to ask that question, not in the slightest. And those who state that it is are merely trying to stifle the debate of why this is being allowed in our country. It has been banned in many others. It should be banned in ours too.

The RSPCA are very unhappy about it, but seem to have caved in, for some inexplicable reason.

Animals and their welfare come before religion in my book, no matter what that religion may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:39 AM

I do not think it is Islamophobic, not more than it is anti-semetic to talk of how Jews kill their food. It is an animal welfare issue and about being humane. The 'experts' need to do more research - good research - and get the actual facts of which is the most humane because they all seem split on it too.

It seems to me that the time when they could rod the brain immediately after captive bolt stuns that the chance of pain or the animal walking was so much lessened. I believe they are not now allowed to rod the brain because of thing's like BSE (though I see no reason why a fresh rod could not be used each time).

Electrocution cannot be so nice either. See how many humans have suffered greatly in the electric chair before dying. I have often wondered on sheep because wool is a good insulator so does all the charge always arrive?

What we really need are facts based on solid research so that we can make an informed choice in the end

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:36 AM

Shechita and Halal slaughter has been an emotional issue in Europe for some time

In the UK
"The requirement in British legislation for the pre stunning of animals in slaughterhouses has ALWAYS provided exemptions for the Jewish and Muslim methods of slaughter"
From the House of Commons Library - last updated 23 September 2010

In Germany post 1880 the Tierschutz ('animal welfare') movement protested shechita and although this met with little support it was subsequently embraced by the Nazis; laws established after 1933 put substantial restrictions on the practice
The Nazi conquests of Poland and other regions and countries saw the extension of their ban on Jewish and Islam methods of slaughter Benito Mussolini likewise forbade it in Italy.
The Allied governments lifted these bans, together with other race laws, after the liberation of Europe in 1945.

In the UK the far-right National Front party campaigned against religious slaughter

"All the Jews have to do is stop this barbaric and torturous murder of defenceless animals. When they cease the slaughter the NF will cease its campaign. Until then the NF campaign for animal welfare will continue"

Its successor the BNP renewed its opposition to Jewish and Islamic ritual slaughter by publishing
"Halal and kosher ritual slaughter of fully conscious animals is a barbaric affront to the British tradition of livestock"

Currently shecita and Halal slaughter is prohibited in Switzerland, Sweden, Iceland, and Norway


mauvepink posts
"The 'experts' need to do more research - good research - and get the actual facts of which is the most humane because they all seem split on it too."

In fact this is exactly what is happening


The DIALREL (Dialogue on Religious Slaughter)
project was set up from October 2006 until Summer 2010

Its full title is -
Religious slaughter, improving knowledge and expertise through dialogue and debate on issues of welfare, legislation and socio-economic aspects

Dr Joe. Regenstein is a Professor of Food Science in the Department of Food Science and Institute of Food Science at Cornell University and head of the Cornell Kosher and Halal Food Initiative. He also serves as an Adjunct Professor in the Department of Population Medicine and Diagnostic Sciences in the College of Veterinary Medicine.

There is an informative interview with him for the (Association de Sensibilisation, d'Information et de Défense de Consommateurs Musulmans) in which he suggests some organizations are

" using the inherent Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia of Europe as a way to get support for their agenda"

While
"Ironically, throughout history Europe had some of the highest levels of cruelty to animals and misuse of animals, including fox hunting and bullfighting"

He refers to the US position
"At the state level we are seeing a move to religious supervision requirements that meet « truth in labeling » and « consumer right-to-know » approach."

From "A life worth living"

In April 2008, the Food and Farming minister in the United Kingdom, Lord Rooker, stated that halal and kosher meat should be labeled when it is put on sale, so that members of the public can decide whether or not they want to buy food from animals slaughtered by this method which he personally objected to

However the original post complained that
"TESCO and ASDA now have halal meat counters in some of their stores"
- So, presumably the initial complaint was about the actual production and sale of halal meat rather than labelling?

i.e. "We're now allowing animals to be killed in the halal way in the UK. I think this is very, very wrong"

"The RSPCA allow this to happen because they have now insisted all animals killed in this way are 'stunned' first."

As regards the RSPCA position on current legislation (they are not actually the legislators!) this is clearly explained in detail on their fact sheet "Religious slaughter" which points out that about 90% of Halal slaughter involved pre stunning and reinforces its view that pre stunning is essential to humane slaughter

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:30 AM

I'm well aware the RSPCA do not make the legislation.   If you took the trouble to read posts through you'd find I put a link into the RSPCA page from where this is taken..

"..If you, like the RSPCA, are concerned about the welfare of animals at slaughter/killing, please write to your local MP and to:

The Rt. Hon. Caroline Spelman MP
Secretary of State for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs
Department of Environment, Food & Rural Affairs
Nobel House
17 Smith Square
LONDON SW1P 3JR.

Please write concisely in your own words, and mention some of the key animal welfare issues at slaughter/killing and some of the ways in which improvements could be made..."

This is nothing to do with the National Front, or the BNP. The fact that many people may agree with their sentiments about the *animals* is neither here nor there. As the BNP have had followers who quite happily lash out at others, regardless of colour or creed, I find it hard to think they'd be worried about animals, to be honest.

Neither is it to do with the Daily Mail...yawn...or the Far Left, or the Far Right or the Far Middle. It is purely about animal welfare and the shocking decision that this kind of slaughter is not only happening in this country now, en masse, as Tesco's and Asda aren't just buying the odd one or two animals, let's be serious here....but it's also now out there in the main food chain, without the public being aware of this. THAT is my bugbear..

I'm sorry, but I'm also brave enough to stand up and say that there is much, in many religions, that is horribly wrong, sometimes bordering on evil.

In this day and age, SURELY we have moved forward enough to know what is right and wrong, and there is no need to live our lives to the rigid and cruel conformity of ancient books written in ancient times, by ancient people.....when life was tough and hard and so often barbaric.

Tell me, if the Koran, the Torah, or the Bible stated that all children under 5, born on a Wednesday, at full moon, should have their throats cut, then be left to die, slowly and in dire pain until all blood has dripped out of them, as a sacrifice to the Gods, purely because some weird bloke, or bunch of weird people decided that's what turned him/them on at the time, would you be telling me that it was right?

Or how about if a Holy Book decreed that those children, after death, should be eaten....?

Yeah, it's a shocking and an horrific thought, right?

The hugely worrying thing is that *some* would do exactly that, only because in their narrow, brainwashed minds, it would be a 'Holy' request/rule/regulation/requirement, and therefore, it would be law and it would have to be done.

It's crazy. It's madness. It's insanity.

Halal slaughter, in my opinion, and in that of many others it would seem...is barbaric.

And I say again, it is banned in many countries, and it should be banned here too.   

The Jewish and Muslim religions should also look deep inside their souls about this matter, and others...as much as the Catholic religion should look deep inside its soul over various matters within its' religion.

A Holy Book does not make this 'right'.
Not in my Book, at least.

And to get the British public to be a party to this, by NOT telling people what's going on is disgusting, deceitful and deranged.

Yeesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:55 AM

as much as the Catholic religion should look deep inside its soul over various matters within its' religion.

Now far be it from me to defend a religion, but I know of nothing in the Catholic religion which in any way worse than others.

Tell me, if the Koran, the Torah, or the Bible stated that all children under 5, born on a Wednesday, at full moon, should have their throats cut, then be left to die, slowly and in dire pain until all blood has dripped out of them, as a sacrifice to the Gods,

I doubt if it would make much difference if they stunned them first either; the argument is not about killing all animals, it's about how you kill them. And I think that's been comprehensively answered- both halal and kosher rules accept the stunning of animals before they are killed.

If you want pain and fear free food, with dignity, stop eating meat, and accept the other consequences of that decision.

If it's merely about information, talk about all the other things we aren't allowed to know about meat, and food in general. Where it's from, how it was treated from birth to death, what it was fed on, what medication it has received, its genetic lineage, how its relationship with its parent and/ or offspring was respected, its shelter, freedom to roam, how far it had to travel from its familiar environment to its place of slaughter, what the travelling conditions were, its treatment around the time of slaughter, the hygienic conditions in the abattoir, the conditions under which the meat was kept and for how long. The list can easily go on, but we are not allowed to know many of these things, and we have virtually no way of knowing if the information given is accurate.

Merely to concentrate on one, divisive, aspect of animal welfare reeks of special pleading.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:40 AM

"Or how about if a Holy Book decreed that those children, after death, should be eaten....?

Yeah, it's a shocking and an horrific thought, right?

The hugely worrying thing is that *some* would do exactly that, only because in their narrow, brainwashed minds, it would be a 'Holy' request/rule/regulation/requirement, and therefore, it would be law and it would have to be done.

It's crazy. It's madness. It's insanity."

It's also a completely ludicrous analogy as no religion does - of course!

My argument remains that anyone who genuinely cares about animal welfare but who eats meat or fish or uses the products of animal husbandry in any way should primarily concern themselves with the treatment of animals throughout their whole life rather than use emotive statements about Jewish and Islamic pracices such as "bordering on evil" which feed into both anti semitic and anti muslim sentiments

Hens - crammed sometimes as many as 5 to a small cage piled uopn thousands of others - through selection, lighting and feed produce an egg almost every day of their short lives, when their ancestors lay just 20 a year.
This leaching of calcium results in severe osteoporosis but an even sadder by product are the day-old male chicks (forty million of them every year) incapable of laying eggs - who are often simply crushed to death.

Chickens raised for meat fare little better For large scale slaughter they are lifted by their legs when they are fully conscious. Their heads are immersed in water to make electrical contact, but some flutter and are not stunned

Female breeding pigs, despite some improvements by campaigners, can still be confined in metal farrowing crates while they deliver and suckle their annual 2.5 litters.

Even the lambs who grace our landscape are transported from market place to holding pen, from livestock dealer to exporter often an average of eight times each
Many are subjected to days of road transport, not only within the UK, crammed with others in unventilated, unheated transporters;
whole consignments have died of stress, thirst and heat stroke.

I will not make any riduculous comparisons about what would anyone feel if we treated our children in this way.

The name of the 'religion' in which we subject farmed animals to this cruelty is the provision of daily cheap affordable meat - is it less barbaric than 'ancient' practices or progress in the name of nutrition?

I also believe we should indeed have "moved forward enough to know what is right and wrong" but understand that 'rights and wrongs' are not the simplistic issues 'some' vociferate

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:56 AM

I believe that Lizzie is correct in asserting that we consumers have a right to be informed of the conditions in which our meat was reared and slaughtered.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:05 PM

I do not care if someone sacrificed their goat to frigging Kali. But as a humanitiarian consumer I care if the meat I eat was killed in a barbaric manner or not. If you *need* religious sadism, please do it on your own island.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:02 PM

Of course meat should be labelled - although this was not the point of the original post and neither has anyone argued against it.

BUT the consumer should also have the right to a truly informed decision about
(as Paul Burke argued in his post of 03 Oct 10 - 10:55 AM)

"Where it's from, how it was treated from birth to death, what it was fed on, what medication it has received, its genetic lineage, how its relationship with its parent and/ or offspring was respected, its shelter, freedom to roam, how far it had to travel from its familiar environment to its place of slaughter, what the travelling conditions were, its treatment around the time of slaughter, the hygienic conditions in the abattoir, the conditions under which the meat was kept and for how long"

Additionally an informed decision about the 'barbarity' of any method of slaughter should be based upon factual information and research - there seems to be little or no evidence that a lower voltage of stunning as used in the production of the vast majority of Halal meat is any less or more humane than that used in other abattoirs.

As an omnivore who also cares about animal welfare I do not eat meat imported from countries where the conditions in which animals are reared do not comply with higher standards in the UK even if it may be cheaper - I would opt for a vegetarian alternative if cost was the issue
For example sow stalls have been banned in the UK since 1999, but will not be banned across the EU until 2013.

There is still plenty of animal 'sadism' on this small island however and, as I posted, it is in the name of the barbaric 'religion' of cheap food and profit at the expense of animal welfare.

Get to understand and know your labels

Like many other people I have no doubt that the reason the EDL the BNP and some right wing papers are raising this story at the present time has nothing atall to do with animal welfare but is an abuse and simplification of those concerns to protest the introduction of different cultural migrants into the UK

I have weighed up my 'compassion' for the identity and religious beliefs of both Muslims and Jews against my compassion for animals

On all the evidence I have read, plus my own direct observations of abbatoirs, I am not suffciently convinced to condemn the use of lower voltages and a method which seems to have evolved with some welfare of the animal in mind - for example the animal can't be allowed to see another animal being slaughtered - as barbaric and 'bordering on evil'

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:22 PM

"If you want pain and fear free food, with dignity, stop eating meat, and accept the other consequences of that decision"

That is not strictly true unless you can guarantee there have been no chemicals used in vegetable production. Death on a massive scale happens in farmer's fields all over the world with the use of pesticides/insecticides and such like. If you are vegitarian do not think animals do not die because of it. If we are to respect life then we also have to think about all those insects too )many that are not pests included(. Any less and we enter into speceism and so ad infinitum.

As a species we have to survive... but as the species that can think and use logic coupled with emotion, we perhaps owe more to animals than they ever do us.

Fact is, as humans, it is hard for us to eat without impacting on other animals lives. What we, therefore. owe to those animals is the best welfare, care and humaneness we can. But that costs money and people want cheap food.... even cheap vegetables.

Vegan and Vegetarian lifestyle is not death free in the main

No-one has the moral high ground on this and all we can do is so our bit to try and make things better

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM

I `ad this Animal Welfare mush in my cab the other day.I could tell `e was one of `em by the tyre marks all over `is trousers. `parently `ed layed down in front of a lorry load of `orses bound for France but the driver never saw `im.
`e said, "Jim can you take me to the RSPCA headquarters please? I want to get a hexpert opinion on the most `umane way of doing for the creatures."
I said, " Wouldn`t you be better off asking the animals??"

Whaddam I Like??

Anyway, does `alal to shecita apply to `orses?
Do dogs get special treatment in Korea?

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 04:16 PM

Of course they do. A dog is for lunch, not just for Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:28 PM

Been away from this thread for a while... and I haven't read all the posts...

If you had to choose between being ``stunned`` with an electric powered bolt gun putting a three inch deep hole in your forehead before having your throat slit or just having your throat slit, what would you opt for?

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Lox
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 06:38 PM

PPaul,

Or indeed - a dog isn't just for christmas lunch ... the left overs are good for bubble and squeak and packed lunches for months to come ...

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 08:15 PM

"If you had to choose between being ``stunned`` with an electric powered bolt gun putting a three inch deep hole in your forehead before having your throat slit or just having your throat slit, what would you opt for?"

There has been some discussion about scientific evidence of both forms of slaughter although the RSPCA acknowledges that the majority (at least 90%) of Halal slaughtered animals are stunned in the UK prior to slaughter.

This is a link to a website that also claims some experimental comparisons between different forms of slaughter - I contribute it for information only - I can neither confirm or dispute the results.

My concern is that, given as one poster pointed out, this method of slaughter has been carried out legally by both Jewish and Muslim communities in the UK for many years it is 'suspect' why a specificaly anti Halal/Muslim campaign has currently been generated by the press and extreme right wing organizations in the UK and reproduced here - if there is an animal welfare issue at stake it has been around for a long time without previous commebt!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 08:34 PM

EB... why quote my question if you don`t answer itÉ

É = question mark... my keyboard is messed up.

In any case, I likely won`t be back here for a while simlpy because that`s the kind of stuff I can`t understand or abide.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 09:03 PM

"EB... why quote my question if you don`t answer itÉ"

It's a bit difficult to answer a question about how you would personally prefer to be killed, but I sincerely attempted to repsond to what I assumed was the underlying question about methods of animal slaughter by making a link to one experiment that claimed to measure levals of pain of both methods quoted in the question.

I'm sorry if that is "the kind of stuff" you "can`t understand or abide." perhaps it would help if you could explain what you can understand/abide.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:32 PM

Personally, I like the Normandy France method for Duck.

Strangle the Duck....let the blood cool into the meat (making it iron rich, healthy and a dark ... almost purple in roasted color)

However, being a boiled goat-meat connosuier....Let the GOAT Meat BLEED...and Bleed...and bleed some more...too much blood makes the meat taste nasty.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Never a Vegan ... born a carnivor.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:23 AM

Emma, I think there has been a change.
To get halal and kosher here you used to have to go to a specialist supplier.
Now it is becoming ubiquitous.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 04:09 AM

Keith A - I reckon supply and demand is behind the explosion of outlets. Not only with those communities for whom Halal / kosher is important, but also to many others. I said above that slaughter of a relaxed animal does, just like the experts say, make the meat less tense, and this is important for such as lamb, making the stewing down time less important.

Regarding some of the posts here, including the original discussion, veiled bigotry using animal welfare as a convenient cover is rather distasteful if you ask me.

In terms of the more general issue here, I'm with Homer Simpson. Can't remember the exact quote but it is something like "If God wanted us to be vegetarians, why are animals made from meat?"

Quite..

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:37 AM

"To get halal and kosher here you used to have to go to a specialist supplier."

Indeed!
There was an interview with Josceline Dimbleby the well known food writer on the radio a couple of days ago in which she remembered that when she wrote her first recipes for 'a well known supermarket' they stocked only one drum of 'mixed herbs' and another of 'mixed spices' To get any of the wonderful range of ingredients we take for granted these days you would have had to go to a specialist supplier
Times have changed

"Now it is becoming ubiquitous."

I understand the definition of ubiquitous as being or 'seeming to be' everywhere at the same time;

The recent manufactured outrage by the Mail on Sunday to the serving of halal meat continued in The Sun, The Express and the Mail Online used such scare headlines as, "Outrage over secret halal"; "Millions being served secretly with halal meat" and "Halal Britain." so indeed, to readers of these publications, Halal meat would indeed seem to be omnipresent

One website claiming to be 'watching the (left wing) enablers of Islamisation' carries the typical headline " 'Hidden Halal' Meat is Flooding Britain "

The article is an interesting combination of contradictions

"Most lamb imported from New Zealand by British supermarkets has been slaughtered according to Muslim law, but this is not mentioned on packaging"

{As long ago as April 2004 the BBC news site was reporting that
"New Zealand's method of slaughtering lamb could satisfy both religious practices and welfare concerns in Britain" and "nearly all New Zealand lamb imported by Britain is stunned and then slaughtered observing halal principles."}

Or, as the site says later
"The supermarkets and fast-food outlets said they did not feel the need to tell customers that meat is halal because the slaughter conformed to Western standards, with animals stunned before being killed."
But continuing…
"More than 70% of New Zealand lamb imports to Britain are halal… but you wouldn't know it from the label."
And
"All Islamically slaughtered lamb and chicken sold in British supermarkets is stunned before being killed, but is not labelled as halal."

In other words the only 'difference' that requires a specidic label on the package is that a prayer has been said at the point of slaughter!

The article end with the emotive appeal

"Where is the due care paid to people who do not wish to eat ritually-slaughtered meat, or, more particularly, meat ritually-slaughtered for the Muslim market?
What about the people who object on compassionate grounds?

This is a particularly nasty practice and it should be stopped in its tracks. But the only way is by direct action and wider exposure.
If people do not put pressure on their MPs or representatives, organise local action and lobby local media; nothing will happen."


A site that looks at the vilification of Muslims in some of the UK tabloid press comments

"Each article uses words to depict a covert operation of halal by stealth, pushed on to "unsuspecting diners". Put together, these conjure up images of the myth that there is a creeping Islamification of Britain, further stoking the manufactured fear of a Muslim takeover

The debate is framed around the issue of animal welfare and customers not being informed of how their meat is slaughtered. Why would it be an issue whether the meat is halal or not?

The issue certainly isn't about animal welfare.

If it was, why do we not find campaigns against battery farming practices in Britain?

Why no moral outrage there by the public?
Let's also not forget, Kosher, like halal meat, is prepared by draining the blood from the animal before being prepared so why is the focus of this attack exclusively on the Muslim community?

It is naïve to assume that the issue is one of animal rights or customer choice. Halal meat has been served in "Indian" restaurants, run by Muslims, for decades and yet the moral outrage only finds expression now"

Steaming Willie said "veiled bigotry using animal welfare as a convenient cover is rather distasteful if you ask me."

hear hear!

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:33 AM

Please do not be so quick to shout bigot.
This is only an issue for me if more animals are slaughtered in an unnecessarily cruel way, and particularly if the meat I eat has not been slaughtered as humanely as possible.
If there is no extra cruelty I have no problem with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:37 AM

When it comes to cruelty Lobsters don't fare any better. I'm not convinced that killing them that way in boiling water is painfree but people still select them from a tank in a restaurant without batting an eyelid.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:03 AM

A good chef keeps lobsters in a chiller for several hours before cooking them. This 'numbs' the lobster's central nervous system so that it is effectively 'stunned' before cooking.

Taking them straight from the tank to boiling water is cruel and unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:05 PM

Personally, I like to get my critter crocked before slaughter.

Kobe Beef - an extra large portion of Kirin Beer - does just fine.

Lobster - a bottle of white wine added to the lower "hydrator" twelve hours before.

Abalone - same as above.

Pig - a half bushel of appeles the the day before - intoxicated and they blow a blue wind....under a night sky as the viseral drops to the ground.

Goat - just slit the troat - and boil and rinse... boil and rinse again. (Same as racoon, possem, and squirrel.)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Halal Meat on sale in the UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 07:49 AM

Some non-halal abattoir practices. In Today's Guardian.