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BS: True Test of an Atheist
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Oct 10 - 08:20 PM Don't worry, Smokey. His attacks don't bother me at all. Well, OK, a little bit. About as much as that fly that keeps landing on your bare knee when you're trying to have an afternoon kip in the garden in your deckchair. He's a big babby. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Smokey. Date: 19 Oct 10 - 03:10 PM But he sure can cry about your uncivil attitude if you criticize him. Grow up, Josep - you're just throwing bait out so that you can misinterpret the response to score points. It really does look pathetic from here, and I'm surprised your personal attacks are tolerated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:59 PM OK, kids, that's enough. Let's get back to the issue. I thought of another test: if something absolutely horrible happens to a good person you know, and you don't think that it must have happened *for a reason*, you pass the test. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,josep Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:13 PM ///You obviously have huge chip on your shoulder about religion. You don't have to take it out by being rude to people having a civil conversation./// But he sure can cry about your uncivil attitude if you criticize him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:49 AM "I'm far from lacking in education, professor shaw." But clearly lacking in the sort of education that tells you where to use capital letters. Perhaps he worships at the church of the second cummings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:13 AM "Yeah" isn't a proper word, Mr. Education. I know I shouldn't respond, but just to say that "yeah" is a perfectly good word. I won't be using it in my next scientific paper, of course (come to think of it, I won't be using "won't" either). Yet again, the w*nker w*nks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,kendall Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:05 AM This thread just hit a low spot with a personal attack and I'm no longer interested in it. Bye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 19 Oct 10 - 08:46 AM As I see it we are all in the same boat all coming to the same end and my morals tell me that is why I should be as good and nice as possible to everything and everyone for that reason. Possibly it is because I lost someone close to me and I am bitter and angry. So if there was a God I would be first in line to take issue with him or her about quite a few things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:15 AM Excuse me! I'm being called a liar by some immature kid who sees things only in black and white and I'm accused by someone else, who thinks I'm being rude, of crying for help! This thread is turning into the biggest belly-laugh ever. Hey, Smokey, thanks for the capital P by the way. I feel so much better for that! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Smokey. Date: 18 Oct 10 - 10:29 PM This is like watching a pair of pathetic would-be bullies in the school playground picking on the 'odd' boy, who I find myself mostly in agreement with. Carry on, Professor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Jack the Sailor Date: 18 Oct 10 - 09:26 PM >>Shaw," Steve will do, actually. Don't be so bloody stupid.<< You consider it stupid to address you by your posted last name? Mr. Shaw, Who is acting stupidly? "If it is not obvious to you that you are resentful, I urge you to reread what you have said on these threads. You have been far from a neutral observer. >>>What you have been saying seems like a cry for help." And what you have been saying betrays the fact that you appear to be a patronising twat. I say (for now) that you only appear to be. I do like to leave people scope to recant. <<< I like that you use the word "And." It is a tacit admission that you agree with my statements. You obviously have huge chip on your shoulder about religion. You don't have to take it out by being rude to people having a civil conversation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Oct 10 - 09:25 PM Excuse me, but how can it be up to person A to decide whether person B is an ex-anything? That is up to the individual. I am reminded of the people who say that you can't convert out of judaism. For crying out loud, get back to the reason part. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Bill D Date: 18 Oct 10 - 08:54 PM Why did I even THINK I could insert something a little different and interesting into a thread when it's been hi-jacked by two guys who just want to trade long-winded repartee' and insults? Silly me.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,josep Date: 18 Oct 10 - 08:38 PM ////To the substantive issue./// I type fast and I don't proofread what i write. I really don't care if it's all that correct. Your nitpicking on this point doesn't score you points, professor shaw (although lower case here has always been deliberate). But feel free to engage in that foolishness if it makes you feel superior--you have to snipe at something, I suppose. ////Of course I was force-fed doctrine.//// So you lied earlier when you stated that your religious upbringing was all that repressive. Sounds repressive to me. ///Every kid who attends a faith school in whatever religion is force-fed doctrine (we could stop calling it doctrine, actually, which is rather respectable, and call it what it really is - lies), and a good number are force-fed it by their parents as well.//// Good, we're starting to scratch the surface of the truth of your problem. I sense a dislike of one's parents. But then I might have disliked mine had they force fed lies to me as well. ///But in my case it was not particularly repressive as my parents cared not a jot about my church-avoiding shenanigans once I was past about fifteen./// After mentioning parents shoving crap down kids' throats you then make sure to mention that yours didn't do that--after you turned 15 that is. What were they like before you turned 15? What lies did they force-feed you? ///You talk like a typical faithful Catholic, disappointed and insecure to see those who demur voicing their views./// Quite the contrary. I'm rather enjoying this. I think you know you came on too strong--thought you'd get more support than you did--and now your pride, as usual, won't let you back down and admit you were out of line. So you're just going to plow ahead like a bull in a china shop and everything else be damned. Tell me if I'm getting warm. ///I'm bitter, resentful and militant, eh?/// Yes, we know. ///Yeah, right./// "Yeah" isn't a proper word, Mr. Education. ///Listen up, young man. I've never voted Conservative in my life but I express opinions about the Conservative party that are every bit as vitriolic as anything I say about the Catholic church.//// I grew out of that when I realized my political opinions were no more enlightened than anyone else's. ///The implication in your attack is that, somehow, as an ex-Catholic, I'm not entitled to voice my views lest I risk being subjected to particular scorn. Well sod that./// I don't imply anything, professor shaw, I state it outright: you're not an ex-Catholic. You're still that angry, little boy who got force-fed lies and had to swallow it, who couldn't rebel for whatever reason so you're going to do it now--just let 'em try and stop you! ///The Catholic banana boat last floated out of my dock over thirty years ago and resentment I have none. Your trouble is that you can't distinguish resentment from objective criticism. Grow up./// There has been nothing objective in your invective. You are clearly resentful and you sure can get nasty when you're called on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Oct 10 - 08:28 PM Heheh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,josep Date: 18 Oct 10 - 08:15 PM ///I think allowing people to make up their own minds is laudable. However, there is a danger in any religion that attempts to evangelize or force their ideologies on others. The danger must be self-evident to anyone who has taken note of those who have been killed because of someone who is a true believer as killer. Not to see this is naive at best and stupid at worst./// Is it better when they are killing each other over ethnic hatreds or land disputes or tribal customs? ///Religion brings with it a sense of "rightness" that can be used to do bad things./// Atheist also often exude a sense of "rightness" and that makes them as prone to do bad things as anyone else. ///I was never force-fed doctrines of any kind. I searched many religious paths and found them wanting. They had a common denominator. They demanded obedience and total acceptance. Sure it's easy to say let people do this or that based on their beliefs but the problem is that there are too many nut-jobs in religion to be one-offs. A reasonable person would examine what the effect of religion has on this erratic behavior such as murder and the justification of it./// You're setting up a straw man. Of course religion produces nuts. So does politics. So does anything. I've never had a person who belongs to an organized religion threaten to kill me because I was an outsider. I don't expect it will ever happen. If you have to rail against religion on the off-chance that some unglued nut might want to kill you, you have a pretty weak excuse. ///Less then murder is the condemnation and rejection given by religious believers to those outside the fold./// They can do whatever they want. I can't change them. I wouldn't if I could. It's their choice. Aren't you doing the same thing? ///I think atheists have got to be the most accepting of people because they don't use religion as a tape measure for a person's morality./// Many of them use lack of religion as a measure of intelligence and place themselves above believers. They are just the same people. They are what they hate. ///Free thought is not free when there are those religious folk who condemn it and they are too numerous to mention today./// Free thought is free. If they choose not to engage in it, too bad for them. But no one's stopping you from engaging in it but you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Oct 10 - 08:13 PM "I'm far from lacking in education, professor shaw." But clearly lacking in the sort of education that tells you where to use capital letters. "We're you force-fed doctrine as a boy or not?" Or the sort of education that tells you where apostrophes should go. "when you're every world is a vilification of Catholicism" Nice misuse of "you're" there, but I'll forgive you the typo following. I almost never attack people for their blatant illiteracy, but I will should they dare attack me for being "uneducated." Very dodgy, young man. I recommend you avoid. You are in a glass house. To the substantive issue. Of course I was force-fed doctrine. Every kid who attends a faith school in whatever religion is force-fed doctrine (we could stop calling it doctrine, actually, which is rather respectable, and call it what it really is - lies), and a good number are force-fed it by their parents as well. But in my case it was not particularly repressive as my parents cared not a jot about my church-avoiding shenanigans once I was past about fifteen. You talk like a typical faithful Catholic, disappointed and insecure to see those who demur voicing their views. I'm bitter, resentful and militant, eh? Yeah, right. Listen up, young man. I've never voted Conservative in my life but I express opinions about the Conservative party that are every bit as vitriolic as anything I say about the Catholic church. The implication in your attack is that, somehow, as an ex-Catholic, I'm not entitled to voice my views lest I risk being subjected to particular scorn. Well sod that. The Catholic banana boat last floated out of my dock over thirty years ago and resentment I have none. Your trouble is that you can't distinguish resentment from objective criticism. Grow up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:48 PM I think allowing people to make up their own minds is laudable. However, there is a danger in any religion that attempts to evangelize or force their ideologies on others. The danger must be self-evident to anyone who has taken note of those who have been killed because of someone who is a true believer as killer. Not to see this is naive at best and stupid at worst. Religion brings with it a sense of "rightness" that can be used to do bad things. I was never force-fed doctrines of any kind. I searched many religious paths and found them wanting. They had a common denominator. They demanded obedience and total acceptance. Sure it's easy to say let people do this or that based on their beliefs but the problem is that there are too many nut-jobs in religion to be one-offs. A reasonable person would examine what the effect of religion has on this erratic behavior such as murder and the justification of it. Less then murder is the condemnation and rejection given by religious believers to those outside the fold. I think atheists have got to be the most accepting of people because they don't use religion as a tape measure for a person's morality. Free thought is not free when there are those religious folk who condemn it and they are too numerous to mention today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,josep Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:33 PM ///Talk about plumbing the depths of ignorance and stupidity. Do you think it's *Catholics* who hack kids' foreskins off?/// I don't know, do they? It's widely practiced in the Western world. ///Why would I get upset about what some religion totally unrelated to my personal experience does?/// That's what I'm asking you! Were you force-fed doctrine or not? You never answered the question. Instead you went off with insults that appeared to be trying to get me off this tack. Won't work. Answer the question, please: We're you force-fed doctrine as a boy or not? And why do you insist that you are not rebelling when you're every world is a vilification of Catholicism--even to the point of accusing them of rubbing off on me. Clearly you meant that to be an insult. It's not having the intended effect because I didn't grow up resenting having religion forced on me. Clearly, it was forced on you. Clearly you are very--I would even say extremely--resentful of this. Anyone who questions you on this point is treated to insults and deliberately condescending remarks. But remember, professor shaw, you made it our business when you force-fed us your anti-religious doctrine. Personally, I see no real danger in religion. You have your nutjobs but they exist in every sphere of life. If people want to pray before a football game, I really don't care. Go ahead and pray. If they want to go to church then go to church. If they want to pound their bibles on the street they can knock themselves out doing so. If they want to talk to me about Jesus, I'm all ears--talk away. I just want the state to stay out of it. I want religious folk to know that I as an atheist don't care what they do. I'm not going to rail against it. I was at an art museum some months back and a lady was there with her daughter, about 10, and they were looking at the religious paintings so popular in Europe at one time and the lady told the girl what the Ascension was. "Is that really true?" asked the girl, clearly skeptical. "Yes, it's true," said the lady. Now, that isn't the answer I would have given but I wouldn't have told her no that's not true either. I would have said, "Does it sound true to you?" Then she can do her own mental processing. Atheists talk so much about "free-thinking" but often in their way are just as dogmatic as religious nuts. Let the girl make up her own mind even if I don't agree with her conclusion. That's what free-thought is all about. It means leaving people free to be religious if they want to be and to reject if they want to--not because I said so. All I ask in return is that they respect my position since I respect theirs. ///You are clearly lacking in education about world religions and their rituals. Are you of the age of majority yet?/// I'm far from lacking in education, professor shaw. But I'm also seeing clearly how uneducated you truly are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:19 PM "Shaw," Steve will do, actually. Don't be so bloody stupid. "If it is not obvious to you that you are resentful, I urge you to reread what you have said on these threads. You have been far from a neutral observer. What you have been saying seems like a cry for help." And what you have been saying betrays the fact that you appear to be a patronising twat. I say (for now) that you only appear to be. I do like to leave people scope to recant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:15 PM ["If some ignorant becassocked git splashes water over your head and pronounces you a member of the faith in front of relatives and "God", you're signed up. If some ignorant armed git chops your foreskin off within days of your birth in a big ceremony, you're signed up. In both cases, good and proper. In both cases you will be assiduously followed up all through your childhood by being force-fed doctrine and prayers in faith schools and/or your family until you can bleat the whole bloody thing out like a parrot. It's a damn sight more than just signing up, which is merely my euphemism for it. I can't understand why you can't grasp this." You seem to be contradicting yourself, prof? Were you force-fed doctrine or were you not? If not, what are you so upset about? Also the tone of righteous indignation in the above statement is impossible to ignore. It jumps out in your face] Talk about plumbing the depths of ignorance and stupidity. Do you think it's *Catholics* who hack kids' foreskins off? Why would I get upset about what some religion totally unrelated to my personal experience does? You are clearly lacking in education about world religions and their rituals. Are you of the age of majority yet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Bill D Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:47 PM Some very thought provoking writings on religion and believing (Author is Paul Lutus If you have time and are so inclined, browsing his site is fascinating....yes, he IS basically non-religious |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,josep Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:44 PM When my father lay dying for several months of last year, he never prayed nor asked for prayer. It never occurred to me to offer any. The hospice did send a clergyman around to pray and we didn't object because he seemed like a nice fella who wanted to comfort us. Because I wasn't raised religious, I felt no urge to tell him to get lost. I just figured, "Well, do your thang, dadz, can't hurt, I guess." He sang a death song over my father and that was actually kind of nice. I liked it. At the funeral there were no clergy. No clergy at the burial either--just family. No clergy came to visit the grieving widow afterwards since my mom doesn't know any and didn't need any coming around. The dying was a lot harder on us than the death itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:31 PM I think that goes under the heading of Wanting something and not praying for it... Remember the movie The Island, when the clones escape and hear someone mention god, and ask, what's god? And the human says You know when you want something really really bad, and you ask for it? Well, god is the guy who ignores you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Jack the Sailor Date: 18 Oct 10 - 04:10 PM When you are rolling the dice and only think of probabilities? Shaw, If it is not obvious to you that you are resentful, I urge you to reread what you have said on these threads. You have been far from a neutral observer. What you have been saying seems like a cry for help. Or maybe like a young male trying to get the attention of a young woman by dipping her pigtails in an inkwell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Oct 10 - 02:32 PM Just for laughs I thought I'd get back to the actual thread title... Tests of atheism: -When you or someone you love is very ill, and you neither pray nor are comforted by the prayers of others, you pass the test. -When you want something very badly that is not under your control to get, and you neither pray for it nor desire the prayers of others, you pass the test. Any others? |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,josep Date: 18 Oct 10 - 12:37 PM Professor Shaw writes: "Ha bloody ha. How do you know I rebelled against it? As it happens I ever so quietly dropped the bloody thing. And I can't rebel now because I haven't been part of it for thirty or more years." This is what he earlier wrote: "If some ignorant becassocked git splashes water over your head and pronounces you a member of the faith in front of relatives and "God", you're signed up. If some ignorant armed git chops your foreskin off within days of your birth in a big ceremony, you're signed up. In both cases, good and proper. In both cases you will be assiduously followed up all through your childhood by being force-fed doctrine and prayers in faith schools and/or your family until you can bleat the whole bloody thing out like a parrot. It's a damn sight more than just signing up, which is merely my euphemism for it. I can't understand why you can't grasp this." You seem to be contradicting yourself, prof? Were you force-fed doctrine or were you not? If not, what are you so upset about? Also the tone of righteous indignation in the above statement is impossible to ignore. It jumps out in your face. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Oct 10 - 12:10 PM "Maybe we should specify what kind of atheist we're talking about. You have the steve shaw kind who are resentful of their religious upbringing and rebelling against it now because they can" Ha bloody ha. How do you know I rebelled against it? As it happens I ever so quietly dropped the bloody thing. And I can't rebel now because I haven't been part of it for thirty or more years. Your simplistic analysis is absolutely typical of those Catholics (even though you're not one - clearly something's rubbed off) who love to brand non-silent ex-Catholics as bitter, resentful and militant. I'm no more of those things than anyone else who happens to disagree with the Catholic church, whether they're ex-Catholics or men from Mars. Finally, if you dig around the threads enough (I can't be arsed), you will find that I've said that my own Catholic upbringing wasn't particularly repressive. I don't like any religion but I happen to know more about Catholicism, for obvious reasons, than the others. That's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 18 Oct 10 - 08:42 AM This is going off the thread a bit but can I have opinions about Jehovah Witnesses. I am not saying anything for or against the religion but I would be interested to hear your points of view. My youngest son's girlfriend is Jehovah and she talks about it in a way that I am not used to, in fact I don't really know much about it at all apart from not allowing blood transfusions. Instinctively I think of the Watchtower and try to brush off some of the things she says but I really can not seriously accept what she believes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Ed T Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:33 AM "I don't really care what the popular interpretation is, I decide what is true by what makes sense". What would popular mean? From which well do you draw your interpretations from, to make that decision? |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: kendall Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:06 AM I don't really care what the popular interpretation is, I decide what is true by what makes sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Ed T Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:55 AM "All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth." Unknown source |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,josep Date: 17 Oct 10 - 11:50 PM Maybe we should specify what kind of atheist we're talking about. You have the steve shaw kind who are resentful of their religious upbringing and rebelling against it now because they can and then you have the kind like me who never had a religious upbringing, never went to church, never read the bible unless we had one of those little gideon new testaments they hand out on street corners. I take no satisfaction from rebelling simply because I have nothing to rebel against. I'm not a hardline materialist. I think there is a universal consciousness that dreams this reality as well as all of us. You can't pray to it because it can't change anything. As though a character in one of your dreams can pray to you and make you change your dream. This consciousness needs to experience everything bad as well as good so it's not going to change the bad even if it could. That might be unfair to the innocent people who are caught up in these rotten circumstances but that's how it is. There might be innocent characters you dream about who get caught up in something bad you dream about or ina nightmare but they're really you anyway just as we are all really bit players of the universal consciousness that dreams us. It's easier to accept than believing in a moral god that refuses to act to save an innocent soul despite all the praying, beseeching and cajoling people do to get it to act and all the promising they give the rest of us that this creature who does nothing to help us actually loves us. I guess the deists were sort of right. The atheists are wrong. Atheism itself--as a group of logical arguments--is a very useful tool--but most atheists are just rebelling, thumbing their noses now that they are adults and no one can whack their pee-pee for it. The theists are wrong. Their whole system is nonsensical and badly thought out. The philosophers and the deists are really the most correct. The philosophers maybe a little more than the deists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Ed T Date: 17 Oct 10 - 08:43 PM Sound s like a good experience Steve.Nice to hear of it. Oddly enough, I never had a desire to have a funeral when my life ends. Never seen any real point in it, beyond bringing closure to close relatives and friends (and, I expect many successfully). IMO a modest piece in a local newspaper notifying friends of my passing and summarizing my accomplishments in life would be enough. But, while I may share our wishes in this regard, beyond that, I supposed I would not be in a position to decide:) |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Oct 10 - 08:19 PM I visit churches and cathedrals at every opportunity. They are part of my heritage. I also listen to religious music and I wouldn't be without my recording of Bach's B minor Mass or any of Mozart's sacred music. I love the music of Hildegarde of Bingen and of Martin Codax and have several favourite recordings of plainchant and other medieval and renaissance sacred music. I've been to several concerts which featured that Bach mass as well as the St Matthew Passion (complete with lunch break) and the Mozart Great C minor Mass and his Requiem. I have a great recording of Vaughan-Williams' G minor Mass which I love, and what's not to like about Fauré's Requiem? I heard a performance of it in Exeter Cathedral just recently. I'm thinking of having Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus motet played at my funeral (not any time soon). You'd be amazed at what some of we conspiratorial atheists get up to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Ed T Date: 17 Oct 10 - 08:10 PM OK, Steve, your point taken. I believe we have reached a point in this aspect of the discussion to agree to disagree on that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Oct 10 - 08:03 PM "It is not at all surprising and is logical that people who feel comforted by organized religion (I am not one of these people) would freely (with or without pressure from any church) wish to pass on the comfort they feel to their young..." Well, warm words all right, but not accurate. It's not comfort that's passed on, it's dogma stated as truth. Think of any Christian prayer and you will see it stuffed with bogus truth and bogus certainty. I worried a lot about what information my kids were receiving and I wasn't going to make an exception for religion. It is not right that young children are fed stories as if they were fact and then discouraged from questioning, asking for evidence. It's what big religions always do and no amount of accusing me of indulging in conspiracy theory will change that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Ed T Date: 17 Oct 10 - 07:54 PM BTW, Steve, I suspect if you visit churches (which you likely don't), you will find most of the faces are older, rather than younger. Would this not be one reason to rethink your "lifetime without religious choice theory"? However, I suspect before one declared this to be a trend, more investigation would be needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Ed T Date: 17 Oct 10 - 07:40 PM "...you will be assiduously followed up all through your childhood by being force-fed doctrine and prayers in faith schools and/or your family until you can bleat the whole bloody thing out like a parrot. It's a damn sight more than just signing up, which is merely my euphemism for it. I can't understand why you can't grasp this" Well, Steve, I can grasp what you say, but cannot see it as logic. IMO, you take an extreme stance (much like the extreme religious folks you seem to dislike) and try and generalize it to a very broad spectrum of people and cases all around the world. IMO, this puts your extreme theory more in the camp of those with conspiracy theories than logical camps. It is not at all surprising and is logical that people who feel comforted by organized religion (I am not one of these people) would freely (with or without pressure from any church) wish to pass on the comfort they feel to their young...much the same as they and others pass on many other non-religious life lessons they have acquired. (I suspect you would do no less with your non belief in God conclusions...that you feel is right... to your young with good intent, if you had the opportunity). To put this forward as a organized religion conspiracy is, IMO, just poorly thought out, but not at all difficult to grasp. The reason behind your ire on this topic is much more puzzling, and difficult to grasp, as you seem to be a reasoned thinker on other issues. Please understand that no one seems to be saying here that an early exposure to religious thought does not have a profound impact on whether you believe in a God or not. I suspect such an early exposure to your non God belief would have a similar impact. However, real life shows that people do have choices, and many do abandon that belief. Many others, like me, come to the conclusion they have a personal belief, but no longer wish to be associated with organized religions. The world and its wide spectrum of peoples should not be lumped into one category, for the convenience of the conclusion, that you could have based your theory on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Oct 10 - 06:57 PM ["sign up" I must have missed that, I don't recall ever signing up to any God related thing, except maybe to a kid participating in a church walk-a-thon. Parents d what parents do. I expect they begin to pass on many of their values, ethical codes and their belief or non belief in a God (and religion,or not) to children when they are young.To me, it is no more than that... and it does have an impact. IMO, suggesting there is a "spooky church organized plot" to brain wash children as they are born puts one more in a conspiracy theory group than the logical thinking alternative one.] If some ignorant becassocked git splashes water over your head and pronounces you a member of the faith in front of relatives and "God", you're signed up. If some ignorant armed git chops your foreskin off within days of your birth in a big ceremony, you're signed up. In both cases, good and proper. In both cases you will be assiduously followed up all through your childhood by being force-fed doctrine and prayers in faith schools and/or your family until you can bleat the whole bloody thing out like a parrot. It's a damn sight more than just signing up, which is merely my euphemism for it. I can't understand why you can't grasp this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Oct 10 - 05:36 PM Well, while this is an interesting thread, it has certainly crept... |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: kendall Date: 17 Oct 10 - 04:52 PM I don't know who they are either.And, I don't want to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Jeri Date: 17 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM And because some people don't want to click on the link to Snopes, this is what he actually wrote: [Stein, December 2005] |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Desert Dancer Date: 17 Oct 10 - 01:55 PM Go to Jeri's link (at Snopes.com). Ben Stein's original essay was about celebrity worship. The first 5 paragraphs in WysiwyG!'s post are approximately Ben Stein's (there are some changes introduced), without his intro. I agree with kendall's comment on the logic. As it happens, I liked Stein's essay this morning: Let Us Pledge Not to Give In to Hate. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: kendall Date: 17 Oct 10 - 12:31 PM Ben Stein has some very convoluted logic. Steve, they want the little ones because they believe that if a child dies unbaptized it will go to hell. Such twaddle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: GUEST,josep Date: 17 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM I am very suspicious whenever somebody sends me an email with titles as "Read What George Carlin Said About Liberals" or "This is one pissed off housewife in New Jersey!" These are written by conservative hacks and shills and somehow get passed around from one person to the next. When they come to me, they get deleted. Even if I ever found myself agreeing with the content, I damned well it wasn't by George Carlin or George Washington or George Clooney or George of the Jungle. I doubt George Carlin ever railed againsst illegal immigration and ended it with, "We have to take our country back!" That is usually a tip-off that you're reading a conservative rant. The "pissed off housewife in New Jersey" was funny because it was a super conservative rant that basically stated "I hate all Muslims. I don't give a shit how bad we are treating them. I don't care if George Bush lied to get us into Iraq, it was the right thing to do so shove your whining liberal democrat bleeding heart tree hugging kumbabya singing anti-American complaints up your ass!" So I went to several political forums with a posted reply to this "blog." Lo and behold, the writer of the blog responded to me. But he was mad because it was taken from his website, which he sent me the link to. I kept referring to the writer as "she" which really torqued him off but I said that it's being passed around as being written by a woman. Several other people also stated that they had received the same email. So they pass around conservative rants and disguise them as "this is the venting of the ordinary John Q. Public" and do this without the permission of the actual author. This guy knew nothing about his blog being passed around under false pretexts. Someone else sent me anti-Obama cartoons he claimed were taken from Australian newspapers demonstrating that even the Australians know about what a sham and an impostor we have in the White House and the email ends with "THANK YOU, AUSTRALIA!" All I could do was shake my head and roll my eyes. The cartoons had "Times-Picayune" printed on them--a Louisiana newspaper. Yeah, thanks, Australia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Jeri Date: 17 Oct 10 - 10:30 AM Some of that was written by Ben Stein (Dec, 2005), and some was added later, by somebody else. Ben Stein's "Confessions for the Holidays" |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Oct 10 - 10:14 AM The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary. My confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees... I don't feel threatened.. I don't feel discriminated against.. That's what they are, Christmas trees. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away. I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat. Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to. In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking. In light of recent events... terrorists attack, school shootings, etc.. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK. Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about.. And we said okay.. Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.' Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace. Are you laughing yet? Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us. Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not, then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in. My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully, Ben Stein |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Ed T Date: 17 Oct 10 - 09:29 AM "sign up" I must have missed that, I don't recall ever signing up to any God related thing, except maybe to a kid participating in a church walk-a-thon. Parents d what parents do. I expect they begin to pass on many of their values, ethical codes and their belief or non belief in a God (and religion,or not) to children when they are young.To me, it is no more than that... and it does have an impact. IMO, suggesting there is a "spooky church organized plot" to brain wash children as they are born puts one more in a conspiracy theory group than the logical thinking alternative one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Oct 10 - 09:13 AM So why do organised religions lay such great emphasis on getting their members in scarcely before that first whack on the bum by the midwife has worn off? Because if they don't get you before you understand what you're letting yourself in for they very likely won't get you at all. I'm a plain sort of chap and all I want to know is, if religion is so true, why don't the big faiths do the honourable thing and refuse to allow anyone to sign up before adulthood? Afer all, I can't vote or join the Campaign For Real Ale before I'm 18, for very good reasons. What very good reason has religion got for railroading people to join whilst they're still in nappies? |
