BS: True Test of an Atheist

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:18 PM

"Some ... would take away the comfort the God belief gives to others."

I see no need for that (except when they stick their d*ck into things like 'Science' and try to ignorantly 'control' it) - but when those very people with the God belief NEED to justify their own belief and NEED to wipe out those who disagree, try to 'take on the opposition' they have none to blame but themselves if they 'hurt their head' AND their faith ....

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:17 PM

"But 'teaching biology' by definition thus excludes the nonsensical 'Creationist/ID Bullshit' brainwashing, and the kids must be warned of this, that it is indeed NOT 'Science', in spite of what their misguided parents may bully them with ... :-P

Hopefully, you were capable of leaving intolerant views (like above and in some other posts) at the doorstep of the school before entering to provide a balanced perspective?

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:12 PM

"it is quite pretentious of we little weaklings here on earth to think that we are going to destroy God's creation."

He arrogantly forgot the Old Testament Prophets here (and that line about being 'fruitful', which by definition is the exact opposite of 'destructive') - they said that Israel would be destroyed and put into exile for going against God's Will... :-)

And the Earth will go on happily, a lump of rock spinning in space till the sun turns into a red dwarf and swallows it ... no real NEED for people, you see :-)

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:08 PM

Is there a belief that God does not exist?"

Yes there is, and that is ok.

But, there are some that cannot leave it there. Some folks agressively try to marginalize those who disagree with this belief that there is no God and would take away the comfort the God belief gives to others. But, on the other side of the coin are some religious extremes who try the same with those who believe that God does not exist. A pity that such extremes exist in either movement.

"Can we all get along?" Rodney King quote

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:08 PM

QUOTE
"But 'teaching biology' by definition thus excludes the nonsensical 'Creationist/ID Bullshit' brainwashing, and the kids must be warned of this, that it is indeed NOT 'Science', in spite of what their misguided parents may bully them with ... :-P

Oh yes, I forgot a proverb:
To wash an ass's head is but loss of time and soap. French Proverb
UNQUOTE

Yep, you just can't debate rationally with Creationist/ID believers.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:06 PM

"Is there a belief that God does not exist?

If so that sounds like the basis for a religion to me."


This is the delightful irrational brainwashing that the Theists NEED to confuse people with.

That statement of yours demonstrates a typical confusion in Semantics & Rational Human Logic of those who eat their cake and want it still - Since Religion consists in believing (to the extent of unshakably KNOWing) that there are invisible powerful magic sky fairies who are beyond all human understanding, the mere denial of that position, by definition, cannot be a 'Religion'.

You never heard of Venn Diagrams in Formal Logic, did you? The Theist position is totally inside one circle - the a-theist position is all what is outside that circle, and never the twain can meet.

And then since it is claimed that Religion is 'beyond all human understanding', thus, by definition of those who hold that Religious Belief, 'mere' Rational Human Logic cannot apply to that Belief. :-)

The 'True' A-Theists - just refuse to accept the 'beyond all human understanding' bit, that's all, which places them totally outside that circle of 'Religious Belief'. Which is why they are considered a irreconcilably fatal hostile threat by those who take the 'beyond all human understanding' stance seriously.

Simple, isn't it? :-)

Now for those who are called 'Religious Atheists', they are not, they are 'Proselytizing Atheists' who are not really any different from 'Proselytizing Theists' - both NEED to 'convince others in order to convince themselves', like many of those who undergo various 12 Step programs - the actual 'Internal Belief' is irrelevant to the actual 'observed external behavior'.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:55 PM

>>>But 'teaching biology' by definition thus excludes the nonsensical 'Creationist/ID Bullshit' brainwashing, and the kids must be warned of this, that it is indeed NOT 'Science', in spite of what their misguided parents may bully them with.<<

I sort of agree with you here. Creationism is nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:51 PM

A bit of a drift...

According to Corporate Lobbyist Dick Armey, (while appearing on USA Capitol Hill to testify before a Republican hearing on climate change legislation) if there is a God, there cannot be climate change.

"We have sort of an eco-evangelical hysteria that's going on and it leads me to almost wonder if we are becoming a nation of environmental hypochondriacs that are willing to use the power of the state to impose enormous restrictions on the rights and the comforts of, and incomes of individuals who serve essentially a paranoia, a phobia, that has very little fact– evidence in fact."

"Now these are observations that are popular to make because right now it's almost taken as an article of faith that this crisis is real. Let me say I take it as an article of faith if the lord God almighty made the heavens and the Earth, and he made them to his satisfaction and it is quite pretentious of we little weaklings here on earth to think that we are going to destroy God's creation."

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:36 PM

"But 'teaching biology' by definition thus excludes the nonsensical 'Creationist/ID Bullshit' brainwashing, and the kids must be warned of this, that it is indeed NOT 'Science', in spite of what their misguided parents may bully them with ... :-P

Oh yes, I forgot a proverb:
To wash an ass's head is but loss of time and soap. French Proverb

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:35 PM

Is there a belief that God does not exist?

If so that sounds like the basis for a religion to me.

Please note. I am neutral on the subject and I am not here to offend anyone and cause a controversy. It just seems ridiculous to me that people have to choose sides and argue the question.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:29 PM

For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. ~ Traditional Proverb

Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~Henry David Thoreau

The foot feels the foot when it feels the ground. ~Buddha

The only Zen you can find on the tops of mountains is the Zen you bring up there. ~Robert M. Pirsig

Reason and faith are both banks of the same river. ~Doménico Cieri Estrada

A thousand men can't undress a naked man. ~Greek Proverb

No matter where you go or what you do, you live your entire life within the confines of your head. ~Terry Josephson

It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers. ~James Thurber

You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. ~Author Unknown

Genuine tragedies in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights. ~Georg Hegel

No snowflake ever falls in the wrong place. ~Zen

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth. ~Niels Bohr

If I make the lashes dark
And the eyes more bright
And the lips more scarlet,
Or ask if all be right
From mirror after mirror,
No vanity's displayed:
I'm looking for the face I had
Before the world was made.
~W.B. Yeats

Men are probably nearer the central truth in their superstitions than in their science. ~Henry David Thoreau

Because they know the name of what I am looking for, they think they know what I am looking for! ~Antonio Porchia, Voces, 1943, translated from Spanish by W.S. Merwin

The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him? ~Chuang Tzu


Alice came to a fork in the road. "Which road do I take?" she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" responded the Cheshire cat.
"I don't know," Alice answered.
"Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."
~Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.
Jean Chretien

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:26 PM

>>>I posted the above comment to this thread almost a fortnight ago. Is there any theist amongst us can produce a scintilla of evidence that a god exists? If there is will they please post it soon. <<<


I know that my mental health depends upon my having a spiritual grounding. But don't worry, I'm not in any danger from any of you. I've not only heard your arguments before. I have made most of them myself.

I was a more strident and committed believing atheist than any of you.

But eventually I was broke, tired, lonely, I had lost a job I had been working toward for years, a sales job, basically for being to ethical.

I was planning to kill myself. Desperate, I tried my last resort. I prayed. I suddenly saw ways to turn things around. I was never that broke, tired or lonely again.

What do you call objective?

Bottom line it works.

There are literally millions of experiences like that.

12 Step programs, which have been scientifically proven to be effective treatments for drugs, alcohol, gambling and many other self destructive problems start with and REQUIRE the recognition of a higher power.

Bottom line it helps people. In many cases, including my own, it is the only thing that CAN help.

That is not to say that I agree with most of the things done in the name of Religion. Religion is a tool more powerful than high explosives, even nuclear explosives, unfortunately it is just as open to abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:24 PM

Oooo, serendipitous typo... sorry about that ... :-0

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:23 PM

"Fine, shut up and teach my kids biology. I'll worry about the rest of it. "

But 'teaching biology' by definition thus excludes the nonsensical 'Creationist/ID Bullshit' brainwashing, and the kids must be warned of this, that it is indeed NOT 'Science', in spite of what their misguided parents may bully them with ... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:17 PM

In spite of its ignorant arrogance the US does NOT 'rule the world', and sooner or later when it is just another 3rd world country and broke - all the rich people will migrate to a "Real Cuntry', don't you worry about that, the hard lessons will hit home with vengeance. China and India are bypassing the US already anyway, so hang in there and enjoy the ride.

We do have a lot of 'failed Yanks' turn up here and assume that our country is just part of the USA, and try to 'educate' our politicians and businessmen - we recently kicked out the arrogant bullying overpaid Yank idiot who was appointed to run Telstra - he ran the share price right down, and cut back on service, which encouraged many to leave the fold of an Aussie company and go to companies run by overseas interests who give better service and prices to the extent that an organization that was well loved is now not liked :-) and he took his millions of dollars golden handshake with him. Now the share price has started to rise, and Telstra has stopped trying to bully politicians in the same way that works in the USA.

In Australia, we have 2 separate schools systems.

We have the taxpayer funded State School system, Primary and High, in which teachers are not supposed to preach Religion during classes - but that didn't stop my Physics teacher insisting on all of us doing the Lord's Prayer if you hit him first period of the day. He was our 'Form Teacher', so we did usually 4 days out of 5 - we just shut up and tolerated it - so did most parents in the 60s. He was a devout RC and a great guy, well loved by all students - he would tell us - "you have to give this back in the exam - I don't understand all of why it is so, so just trust me" - and most of his class would get A s or Bs. I met him later, when he was teaching Formal Logic and he was a brilliant teacher, helping me grasp concepts that many here in this forum display a complete lack of. I was upset when he died of cancer, but he had smoked like a chimney.

We also have the 'Religion' period once a week (primary & secondary schools) where all the local pastors (or any other loud mouth self important clown with no teaching training quals who would not have been allowed to teach any other 'subject') were allowed by law to come in and continue the brainwashing conducted at Sunday School. Only a very few were allowed by their parents to go off and study maths or whatever. Personally I would have benefited long term life wise more by that....

Then we have the 'Private' School system - now also funded massively by taxpayer funds to win the 'Church Vote'. Most of these used to be the RC or a few other Religions such as CoE or Lutheran based schools - both Primary and Secondary. Most of them smear Religion into all subjects, as per their published prospectuses. There are also nowadays may other private schools, based on all sort of pedagogical 'principles' - any sort of brainwashing is tolerated - there are regular fusses when the State insists that students leaving these schools must be able to read and write (and not just major in 'theology', Lego or 'dancing to music', or 'orgonne color therapy', or whatever), and if they actually do subjects with 'Science Content' that certain formalized subject matter is taught and tested - we have Senior level tests that supposedly test if one has sufficient levels in various subjects to allow University entry.


I've mentioned here previously what happens when some of these students hit University and try to submit Science papers that only quote from the Bible ....

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:51 PM

"I've got nothing against God - it's his fan club I can't stand!"
Unfortunately, intolerence has and does exist in both the "believer and non believer" groups in all societies. But, luckily I suspect it is mostly at the fringes.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Fergie
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:42 PM

The test of an athiest is in my opinion very simple;
would an athiest change her/his fundamental belief when confronted with objective proof for the existance of a "diety"?

Believers must accept that there is not a scintilla of objective evidence of any kind, that a diety exists.

I posted the above comment to this thread almost a fortnight ago. Is there any theist amongst us can produce a scintilla of evidence that a god exists? If there is will they please post it soon.

Fergus

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:33 PM

Sorry, I didn't recognize that ol' knee-slapper.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:27 PM

It was a joke, Josep - wasted, I suspect..

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:22 PM

///"It is not your job to reprogram these kids."

Since when is contesting these positions "reprogramming kids?"///

If you're opening your big mouth to my kids telling them what's right and what's wrong, you're trying to reprogram them. It is not your job. You say you teach biology? Fine, shut up and teach my kids biology. I'll worry about the rest of it.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM

What's the matter? Afraid he's going to be proven wrong? In the US, a public school teacher cannot preach religion to the students or tell students not to observe any religion. He says that's only in my country. So I want to know what country he's from so we can determine that in his country a public or at least secular school teacher can preach religion to students or preach against religion. I've very curious to know what country allows a teacher to arbitrarily override parental upbringing.

So what country is this, Fool?

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:09 PM

Don't tell 'im, Pike.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:07 PM

///"No, it isn't. It's the law."

Only in YOUR country... :-) ///

So what country are you from, Foolstroop?

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

"So far, you've got Foolestroupe. "

Oi! I'm not with them! I'm not wasting MY time campaigning against the God Bothers!

I've got nothing against God - it's his fan club I can't stand!

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:02 PM

"Dawkins has never pretended to have all the answers...
...Steve, most of the people who attack Dawkins have not read him."

Cheers for that. I'd go even further. Dawkins et al. have no answers, because there ARE no answers to the wrong questions. The main tenet of the atheist argument is that it's best to accept no-one's claims unless they can supply evidence for their claims. The claim of believers in God is that a supernatural being, who breaks all the laws of physics in order to exist at all, and who is far more complex and inexplicable than the things he's supposed to be there to explain, is in charge of the universe. I'm not going to say that's wrong, but I am going to say that I won't believe it until I'm confronted by evidence. Not ritual, hearsay, anecdote, threats of hellfire, tradition, bible, witness -- evidence. It's a reasonable request. One which has yet to be fulfilled.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:55 PM

Is it also fair to debate that many of those who do not believe in a God are intolerant of the views those who do?

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:52 PM

"A belief in a god is not innocuous since it in many cases it fosters intolerance, bigotry,race discrimination and a close-minded approach to anything that disputes its existence"

If you read my post carefully the statement was that compared to some awful stuff that Steve raised that children are exposed to a belief in God was "relatively innococuous".

The belief in a God itself is as noted. As I suggested earlier, it is organized religion, social, political economic attachments that transform this belief into bad things. Almost any aspect of life can and likely has fostered things like intolerance, bigotry,race discrimination and close-minded approaches. There were and are atheist societies (those led with no belief in a God) where alot of these bad things also happened and likely still happens....and alot worse. It is a sketchy theory to attribute these bad things to either to people having or not having a belief in a God.

History is filled with examples of intolerence, conflict and other bad things for many reasons, (sometimes conflicts between those who do not believe in a God with those who do, in other cases the reverse, or battles between those who claim to be tied to competing Gods). In many, if not most of these cases "the belief" was a scapegoat, used to support and fuel the cause. Societies and political leaders non't need much of a reason to do some bad things, or to demonize those who get in their way.

May I suggest that close mindedness is not limited to those who believe in a God. :)

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:06 PM

There is no one that has all the answers to problems associated to religion or science.
But there are educated opinions. Dawkins has never pretended to have all the answers.
The only reason he has been attacked by the likes of Deepak Chopra is that religionists
don't like his conclusions.

A belief in a god is not innocuous since it in many cases it fosters intolerance, bigotry,
race discrimination and a close-minded approach to anything that disputes its existence.

Steve, most of the people who attack Dawkins have not read him.

The reason that discussion and dialogue on this issue is important is that many claims that are made by religionists need to be examined for their veracity and validity. It's not just a matter of belief but which ideas prevail and for what reasons in society. Today, there is a growing preponderance of religiosity that is standing in the way of scientific progress and tolerance.

In my personal experience, I find atheists to be among the most tolerant of people.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 04:37 PM

On the other thread I presented an argument which was my logical proof. I wasn't making a claim.

Your claim was that you were presenting logical proof. The counter-claims were that you were not.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 03:59 PM

"Really? Show me an atheist who "knows." I've never met one in spite of years mixing in atheistic circles. Tosh!

Richard Dawkins. Now there's a man who doesn't "not know".

Our Steve Shaw has demonstrated the arrogance of ignorance. The bubble mentality. I ain't seen it, it works here. Therefore there is no other viewpoint.
Fundamentalist Religions also demonstrate a similar arrogance of the only view worth considering.

My original assertion that "Atheists know" is that most atheists I know prefer to know, and if that is not possible they are content to know that KNOWING it is an assumption, a theory that is yet to be proven, a work in progress, but the one they prefer. Though some exceptionally intelligent exceptions occur. And publish books on the subject."

Well, all I can say is that you appear to be commenting from a position of ignorance about Dawkins' writings. He freely admits, as do all sensible atheists (note the caveat) that there is no certainty possible about the non-existence of God. We leave the certainty to religious people. It's been said so many times on these long threads but your personal agenda, whatever it is, seems to prevent you from listening.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:36 PM

Ed T said:

Of all the bad things you mention that can be taught to a child, whether at home, in a neighbourhood, or in school, sexism, misogynism, racism, dishonesy, homophobic views, a belief in a God seems relatively innocuous.Of all the bad things you mention that can be taught to a child, whether at home, in a neighbourhood, or in school, sexism, misogynism, racism, dishonesy, homophobic views, a belief in a God seems relatively innocuous.

As a "card-carrying" agnostic/sometimes-atheist, I have to agree with Ed T's last sentence.

And just as a sidelight comment of my own:

One advantage of being an agnostic is that you may go ahead and believe in a god, if it suits you. You just realize that no one can prove it, positive or negative.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 12:29 PM

///Rather reminiscent of Josep's debating style. On the God Delusion thread, he followed one of his bizarre pronouncements with -
I'm afraid I must DEMAND to be disproven not just dismissed.
Sorry, both of you, but the burden of proof is on you.///

On the other thread I presented an argument which was my logical proof. I wasn't making a claim. A claim has the burden of proof. I offered an argument and therefore was justified in requesting a counterargument. If all you say is, "You're wrong" then you are now making a claim and have the burden of proof. And remember, logical proof not empirical evidence--just a counterargument to the argument I had offered was all I wanted. No one offered such a counterargument and if I was so obviously wrong in their eyes then why couldn't they offer one? Likewise if my "pronouncements" were so "bizarre" why couldn't you then show me logically why they were unworkable? I'll be more than happy to go over that argument with you again point by point if you feel I shortchanged you in any way but I believe I answered everybody who posed opposing views.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 11:16 AM

"When any man is wrapped up in himself he makes a pretty small package." John Ruskin

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 11:02 AM

Really? Show me an atheist who "knows." I've never met one in spite of years mixing in atheistic circles. Tosh!

Richard Dawkins. Now there's a man who doesn't "not know".

Our Steve Shaw has demonstrated the arrogance of ignorance. The bubble mentality. I ain't seen it, it works here. Therefore there is no other viewpoint.
Fundamentalist Religions also demonstrate a similar arrogance of the only view worth considering.

My original assertion that "Atheists know" is that most atheists I know prefer to know, and if that is not possible they are content to know that KNOWING it is an assumption, a theory that is yet to be proven, a work in progress, but the one they prefer. Though some exceptionally intelligent exceptions occur. And publish books on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:48 AM

"It's not a teacher's job to raise my kids--that's mine. His or her job is to teach my kids the 3 Rs."

I just spotted this gem. Have you ever been in a school?

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:53 AM

"It is not your job to reprogram these kids."

Since when is contesting these positions "reprogramming kids?" Gosh, and you have the nerve to accuse me of setting up a straw man! Going from your other comments about schools and classrooms I can see that you don't know much about education. Are you still a sixth-former?

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:59 AM

"Just so. The "they", obviously enough, Ed, is those parents who use the terminology and icons of Christianity as a transport mechanism for their authoritarian instructions. Guilt trips, overwhelming icons, nefarious implications of no-responsibility for self, or default-guilt, are among the many tricks which add not to an individual's divinity, but only to their servility and degradation.

This is not an automatic consequence of a belief in God, but it sure can be a common interpretation in some circles."

Well Amos, I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition (I have been waiting to say that for years, thanks for the opening)

Spanish Inquisition

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:49 AM

As foolstroupe and I are the only Pastafarians on this thread, forgive me if we take the higher moral tone here... (Ok, I will, foolstroupe can carry on getting into battles with others.)

has it ever occurred to anybody that whilst rattling on about who is or what is an atheist.. an atheist may not bother with this thread as they don't feel it has anything to do with them?

Atheism can be an assertive position but it is also a "nowt to do with me guv'" position regarding religion. I have said before that for me, religion and stamp collecting have something in common; I know people who are into such things but am not curious enough to enquire further.

However, I don't have stamp collectors knocking on doors, telling me how to run my life, killing people for not liking the correct size and shape of stamps or thinking they have a right to influence laws.

So, if you are religious and use it as your moral code, then good for you. if you want me to use it as my moral code, go to Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:30 AM

Foolestroupe

[jesop]"So you might be wiser to refrain from comment until you know what you are talking about because at this point it does not appear that you do. "

Ad hominen. :-)

Previously from Foolestroupe

Thus you demonstrate that you are but a close minded ignorant bigot, trying to pretend cleverness.

Pot, Kettle, Black?

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:26 AM

Steve Shaw

Well, O gastropod,

Ah, the joy of arguing with a biologist. Far too many people call me a crustacean.

the point is that I find it increasingly frustrating to argue with someone who thinks that "random" means "unpredictable"

Previously -

Me:
do you agree with TIA's definition -

mathematical meaning is: not deterministically predictable, but following a probability distribution?

Steve Shaw:
I agree that Tia's definition is a valid mathematical one

It seems that you find it frustrating that I use the definition that you, yourself, have accepted.

and who fatuously attempts (no fewer than three times at the last count) to pin spurious religiosity to my opinions.

I have, at least as many times, asked you to produce any references or examples of what you mean and to give your definition of random. You have consistently failed to do so. You simply make declarations of what you believe. This isn't science, it is religion.
One of your earlier contributions was -
A mutation is miscopying of heritable material. If you want to demonstrate that any such miscopying is random you're going to have to show that there was no cause.
Rather reminiscent of Josep's debating style. On the God Delusion thread, he followed one of his bizarre pronouncements with -
I'm afraid I must DEMAND to be disproven not just dismissed.
Sorry, both of you, but the burden of proof is on you.

If you are going to get anywhere with you're campaign against the God-botherers, you are going to have tighten up your scientific reasoning or your not going to get much support.
So far, you've got Foolestroupe.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:33 AM

"So you might be wiser to refrain from comment until you know what you are talking about because at this point it does not appear that you do. "

Ad hominen. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:32 AM

"No, it isn't. It's the law."

Only in YOUR country... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 12:05 AM

"an excuse to argue with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses at the front door?"

When those people come around I act like I am so sick I can't hardly stand up and they leave promptly.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:59 PM

///So all those kids in Germany raised to despise certain races can not have their nasty beliefs overturned? It WAS a Religious belief and one Man was their God.///

Do you honestly believe that you could have been a teacher in Germany and told these kids they and their parents were wrong?

Look what happened to the Dixie Chicks just for saying they didn't like George Bush. The Bush administration not only cowed people into silence but the society as a whole wouldn't tolerate people questioning the war--even after we found it was started on lies. You weren't going to go into a classroom and tell any kids that the Bush and the war were wrong and you know it.

Like it or not, sometimes there is nothing you can do. And in the United States, like it or not, you as a public school teacher cannot preach for or against any religion to your students or you will be fired. It's the law, at least here in Michigan, and it's a right law. It's not a teacher's job to raise my kids--that's mine. His or her job is to teach my kids the 3 Rs.

///"that the more wrong-minded I show you to be"

A moralistic self aggrandizing judgment - i.e. only a matter of personal opinion, thus purely subjective emotional thinking.///

No, it isn't. It's the law. A teacher canNOT preach for or against religion in a public school. If professor shaw thinks he can tell my kids what he believes is right for them to believe, he is sadly mistaken and the law will back me. He's wrong and that's all there is to it. If you don't like that, take it up with the legislature.

///"continually knock you on your ass. "

Be careful of your emotions running away - others may have different opinions... :-)///

My emotions are perfectly fine, thank you. The more professor shaw talks, the more authoritarian he reveals himself to be. And I've noticed your attempts to argue for or against theistic arguments (I can't tell which you are attempting to do since your statements are very weak) leave a tremendous amount to be desired. So you might be wiser to refrain from comment until you know what you are talking about because at this point it does not appear that you do.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:43 PM

Looks like quotes are popular...


"Atheism is a non-prophet organization."

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:30 PM

"that the more wrong-minded I show you to be"

A moralistic self aggrandizing judgment - i.e. only a matter of personal opinion, thus purely subjective emotional thinking.


"continually knock you on your ass. "

Be careful of your emotions running away - others may have different opinions... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:27 PM

"If a kid is raised with a certain religious belief, you, as a teacher, canNOT tell that child this religious belief is wrong. You have no right. If you do, you are overstepping your bounds and should be fired. "

So all those kids in Germany raised to despise certain races can not have their nasty beliefs overturned? It WAS a Religious belief and one Man was their God.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:19 PM

///Morality originates from God? That's an odd concept, that's logic eacapes me.///

It's an extremely common position taken by theists. I just encountered it in a book written by a man who was criticizing Hitchens and Dawkins. He had some valid points but at the most crucial part of his argument against these men, he resorted to the argument that morality emanates from god but, of course, failed to understand the gaffe he had committed and smugly thought he had thoroughly destroyed the arguments of these men. I don't remember the book offhand but maybe if I go back to that bookstore I'll see it again.

///"Kill them all - let God sort them out" - from a crusading Bishop.... ///

Which demonstrates that morals are indeed man-made. We can put whatever words we want in god's mouth to make them divinely inspired. That's why the bible is worthless for quoting because for every one person quotes, someone else can quote something that refutes it because the bible was written by men with vastly differing views who probably would have killed one another if they had been unfortunate enough to have known one another.

Sit down before fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses nature leads, or you shall learn nothing. ---Thomas Huxley

Doing what little one can to increase the general stock of knowledge is as respectable an object of life, as one can in any likelihood pursue. ---Charles Darwin

It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. ---Bill Waterson

Theologian: An uncommon individual who, though possessing finite abilities, has been called by God himself who, though possessing infinite abilities, requires the assistance of the former in explaining Himself to the rest of us.
---Donald Morgan

Nature! We are surrounded and embraced by her: powerless to separate ourselves from her, and powerless to penetrate beyond her. Without asking, or warning, she snatches us up into her circling dance, and whirls us on until we tire, and drop from her arms. ---Goethe

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it people will eventually come to believe it. ---Joseph Goebbels

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz

It will yet be the proud boast of women that they never contributed a line to the Bible. ---George W. Foote

Show me a population that is deeply religious, and I will show you a servile population, content with whips and chains, contumely and the gibbet, content to eat the bread of sorrow and drink the waters of affliction. ---H. Hubert Harrison

If I were to speak your kind of language, I would say that man's only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a 'moral commandment' is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments. ---Ayn Rand

Anyone who engages in the practice of psychotherapy confronts every day the devastation wrought by the teachings of religion. ---Nathaniel Branden, Ph.D. Psychologist

The world does not owe us a living, we owe the world a living, our own. ---Forrest Church

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. ---Derek Bok, ex-president of Harvard

The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear. ---Herbert Agar

The worst tyrants are those which establish themselves in our own breasts. ---William Ellery Channing

When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord, in His wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me. ---Emo Phillips

The missionaries go forth to Christianize the savages—as if the savages weren't dangerous enough already. ---Edward Abbey

We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. ---Viktor Frankl

Nothing is more despicable than respect based on fear. ---Albert Camus

What if a demon were to creep after you one night, in your loneliest loneliness, and say, 'This life which you live must be lived by you once again and innumerable times more; and every pain and joy and thought and sigh must come again to you, all in the same sequence. The eternal hourglass will again and again be turned and you with it, dust of the dust!' Would you throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse that demon? Or would you answer, 'Never have I heard anything more divine'? ---Friedrich Nietzsche

Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such and such. ---Homer Simpson

If we don't play god who will? ---James Watson

If you were all alone in the universe with no one to talk to, no one with which to share the beauty of the stars, to laugh with, to touch, what would be your purpose in life? It is other life, it is love, which gives your life meaning. This is harmony. We must discover the joy of each other, the joy of challenge, the joy of growth. ---Mitsugi Saotome

And let that day be lost to us on which we did not dance once! And let that wisdom be false to us that brought no laughter with it! ---Friedrich Nietzsche

How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed.' Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.' ---Carl Sagan

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do that!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
"Yes."
I said, "Are you're a Christian or a Jew?"
"A Christian."
I said, "Me too! Protestant or Catholic?"
"Protestant."
I said, "Me too! What franchise?"
"Baptist."
I said, "Me too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
"Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
"Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
"Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
"Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die heretic!" and I pushed him over.
---Emo Phillips

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 10:47 PM

///We live in a world in which many children are taught to be sexist, mysogynistic, racist, dishonest, homophobic and other such lovely things. They are being taught all that by parents who are teaching "whatever they see fit." Grand. I spent 25 years teaching in inner city schools trying (apart from teaching science) to contest those positions. It's a bloody good job that I and thousands of other right-minded people didn't, and don't, "butt out". You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, have you? Are you about seventeen?///

First of all, I was talking about religious upbringing and you set up a straw man to prove your point thereby failing to prove your point. If a kid is raised with a certain religious belief, you, as a teacher, canNOT tell that child this religious belief is wrong. You have no right. If you do, you are overstepping your bounds and should be fired.

As for sexist, mysogynist, racist, homophobic views taught to children, if they cause disruption in the classroom, you as the teacher need to get them expelled or otherwise banished from your classroom. It is not your job to reprogram these kids. And since you label yourself in your typical arrogant fashion as "right-minded" (i.e. I'm always right) you can rest assured you've accomplished nothing other than to make things worse. You need to stop waving your credentials around like some kind of badge of perfection--nobody here knows you from Adam--and start listening to what people here are trying to tell you.

I also notice that your cavalier, dismissive attitude towards me a few posts ago has vanished and you now are compelled to question my age and knowledge-level in virtually every post and I suspect that derives from the fact that the more wrong-minded I show you to be, the less funny you find me. That's because the more you overestimate yourself and underestimate everyone else, professor, the harder you fall when those poeple continually knock you on your ass.

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Amos
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM

Just so. The "they", obviously enough, Ed, is those parents who use the terminology and icons of Christianity as a transport mechanism for their authoritarian instructions. Guilt trips, overwhelming icons, nefarious implications of no-responsibility for self, or default-guilt, are among the many tricks which add not to an individual's divinity, but only to their servility and degradation.

This is not an automatic consequence of a belief in God, but it sure can be a common interpretation in some circles.


A