BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: DougR
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:37 AM

Anybody going to a celebratory party on election night?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:55 AM

Bobert: "Great, Sawz... Bombs and bullets are a much more humane way of killing people than AIDS..."

..and even more dangerous, and far more lethal, is Bobert on a riding lawnmower!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:51 AM

Obama's Last-Ditch Strategy

    The Daily Beast - Tue Oct 26, 12:26 am ET

Obama's Last-Ditch Strategy With the GOP riding high, the White House seeks solace in tight Senate races and the undecided vote. Richard Wolffe on Team Obama's final midterm moves and the wedge issues they'll push next year. Plus, midterm predictions from the Election Oracle.

With one week left before the midterm elections, Obama's senior advisers can now see the contours of a landscape they all concede is vastly different from the one they traversed just two years ago.

But the news, they insist, is not all bad. Despite widespread predictions of a Republican blowout, Obama's team claims that early voting data and the latest polling shows hills as well as valleys. "It's not consistent," said one senior Obama aide. "In places where we have a strong turnout operation, we'll do OK and better than expected. Pennsylvania, Ohio and even Illinois is improving. In other places, where the turnout operation is weak, we're in trouble."

"Many of the House districts," the aide said, as a matter of fact.

Sure enough, in Senate races across the country, the contests have grown closer in these final weeks. In Colorado, the recently appointed Senator Michael Bennet has closed a high single-digit deficit against Republican Ken Buck to turn the race into a technical dead heat. In Pennsylvania, Democrat Joe Sestak has done something similar to cut his deficit against Republican Pat Toomey.

But elsewhere, the trend seems to be running in the other direction. In Obama's home state of Illinois, his friend Alexi Giannoulias is struggling to close a small but consistent gap against Republican Mark Kirk. That race, like so many others, remains well within the polls' margin of error.

So it's no surprise that President Obama's final campaign swing next weekend takes in Philadelphia and Chicago. What's less expected: He's ending his tour in Cleveland, where Democrats hope a strong late showing by Governor Ted Strickland could help tip the balance in a handful of House races in a battleground state that continues to tilt toward the GOP.

In searching for hopeful signs on a bleak horizon, Obama's team also points to surveys showing a huge portion of the voting population that remains undecided. According to a recent Associated Press poll, as many as one third of likely voters are undecided and say they could change their mind. Of those persuadable voters, 45 percent favor Republicans versus 38 percent who favor Democrats. Two years ago, just 14 percent of voters were undecided at this point, according to another Associated Press poll....

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 01:57 PM

"and yet, the USA ranks 37th in health care among the nations of the world."

If the ranking of a nation does not have any bearing on choosing a country for health care, Why do you bring it up?

Evidently 36 nations that have better health care than the US.

Maybe if you were in a country that was 68th, it would be justifiable to go higher up to the measly USA.

Methinks your ranking comment displays a superior attitude.

How many MRI machines per capita do they have in Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 01:43 PM

"And, fir the record, the US is also in 1st place on inflicting deaths in non-3rd World countries..."

How come your record doesn't include lives saved by the US?

You are fair and balanced aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 01:22 PM

Sawzaw, an individual person goes to any country where there is a specific practitioner who they think they would like to go to. It isn't necessarily a question of the country...although it might be...more often it is a question of which specific doctor...or which specific treatment the person wishes to seek.

You can't change the basic fact, already established by worldwide surveys which are well-documented, that the USA stands at about number 37 worldwide in quality of health care, Canada at about number 35, and France at number 1.

Nevertheless there are going to be French citizens who decide to go to some other doctor in some other country, just as there are American and Canadian and British citizens who decide to go to some other doctor in some other country....and there are THOUSANDS of unique individual reasons why people make such decisions.

To pick someone like Belinda Stronach to prove or disprove anything about basic health care in Canada and the USA is irrelevant. It has nothing to with anything except Belinda Stronach.

You are the guy who wants to talk in all-or-nothing terms, but cherrypick some individual case to justify an entire position. That's not rational. Look at the entire picture instead of cherry-picking some individual case and pretending that that changes the entire picture.

I don't want it "both ways"...I'm simply willing to study the entire picture rather than fixate on one detail that appears to support my argument and ignore the rest.

It's like there's an elephant standing there, Sawzaw, and the elephant is obviously gray, and I'm saying "That elephant is large and he's gray." and you're pointing at a teeny little mole on the elephant's right flank and you're saying, "No, look! The elephant is tiny and he's dark brown!"

;-) Those 2 Canadian politicians you mentioned are 2 moles on the elephant's flank. Virtually everyone living in Canada likes our health system a lot better than the American one, and gets their health care here at far less cost, and it's just as good, if not better. You can't change that, but you can rave on about the mole on the elephant's flank if it makes you feel good.

Belinda Stronach is also very, very rich. She could afford to get health care on the Moon if they had a clinic there, so I guess she'll go anywhere she wants, right? Maybe you'll hear about her going to Saudi Arabia one of these days if she hears about a doctor she likes there. Or Japan. Or France. Or Austria. Why not? It would be a fun trip, right? And if you can afford to go anywhere, you probably do. Hell, there's a doctor in Italy I'd love to see if I could afford to. He's an oncologist who doesn't believe in the conventional ways of treating cancer. I've read some stuff he wrote, and was I very impressed....so if I had need to, I'd probably go and see him....IF I could afford to.

NOT because he's in Italy. Because it's him, period. I'd go to whichever country he was located in...if I could afford to.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 10:44 AM

Great, Sawz... Bombs and bullets are a much more humane way of killing people than AIDS...

Me thinks you need to run yer thinkerator thru the wash... Seems to be a tad on the gummed up side...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 11:35 PM

Bobert: "I mean, lets give credit where it is due..."


Here, his administration has saved millions of lives," Geldof wrote in Time Magazine as he accompanied Bush on an Africa trip last February.


CAPE TOWN, South Africa — In her AIDS-scarred South African township, Sweetness Mzolisa leads a chorus of praise for George W. Bush that echoes to the deserts of Namibia, the hills of Rwanda and the villages of Ethiopia.

Like countless Africans, Mzolisa looks forward to Barack Obama becoming America's first black president Jan 20. But — like countless Africans — Mzolisa says she will always be grateful to Bush for his war on AIDS, which has helped to treat more than 2 million Africans, support 10 million more, and revitalize the global fight against the disease.

"It has done a lot for the people of South Africa, for the whole of the African continent," says Mzolisa, a feisty mother of seven. "It has changed so many people's lives, saved so many people's lives."

Mzolisa, 44, was diagnosed with the AIDS virus in 1999 and formed a women's support group to "share the pain." In 2004 she received a U.S. grant to set up office in a shipping container and start a soup kitchen from the group's vegetable garden. She stretches her $10,000 in annual funding to train staff to look after bedridden AIDS victims, feed and clothe orphans, and do stigma-busting work at schools and taxi ranks.

Hundreds of similar small grass-roots projects are being funded by the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, or PEPFAR, alongside higher-profile charities and big state clinics.

Bush launched the $15 billion plan in 2003 to expand prevention, treatment and support programs in 15 hard-hit countries, 12 of them African, which account for more than half the world's estimated 33 million AIDS infections. The initiative tied in with a World Health Organization campaign to put 3 million people on AIDS drugs by 2005 — a goal it says was reached in 2007.

Congress last year passed legislation more than tripling the budget to $48 billion over the next five years, with Republicans and Democrats alike hailing the program as a remarkable success.

But the task remains enormous. More than 1.5 million Africans died in 2007 (the U.S. death toll is under 15,000), fewer than one-third had access to treatment, and new infections continued to outstrip those receiving life-prolonging drugs.

In most African countries, life expectancy has dropped dramatically, and only a few, like Botswana, have started to turn the corner again.

And with no end in sight to the global financial crisis, there are fears about whether all the funding approved by Congress will be delivered.

There continue to be detractors who say the U.S. administration should have channeled the money through the U.N.; that it has placed too much emphasis on faith-based groups and abstinence; that it has trampled on women's health by shunning anything associated with abortions; that it has concentrated on AIDS treatment at the expense of prevention; and that it has diverted attention away from bigger killers like pneumonia and diarrhea.

Helen Epstein, an AIDS expert who has consulted for the U.N. and the World Bank, says both the U.N. and PEPFAR have failed disastrously on prevention by preaching abstinence until marriage and failing to recognize that in some African cultures it is the norm to have several simultaneous long-term relationships.

Critics say money could be better spent
She says the money would be better spent on strengthening African health care systems rather than focusing on a single disease.

Johanna Hanefeld at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine says her research in Zambia indicated that the U.N. Global Fund to Fight AIDS, TB and Malaria was more effective in using HIV programs as a lever to improve health care and staff training, rather than scattering cash among many non-governmental groups, faith-based or other.

PEPFAR ambassador Mark Dybul dismisses criticism that the funding is too narrowly focused.

"In Africa you can't tackle development goals unless you tackle HIV/AIDS," he says, citing the devastation wreaked on professions like nursing and teaching.

Besides PEPFAR, Bush has launched a five-year, $1.2 billion initiative to cut malaria deaths in 15 African nations by half.

Dybul also says it is unfair to accuse the U.S. of overemphasizing abstinence because PEPFAR is a major supplier of condoms to the targeted African countries. For instance, PEPFAR figures show 60 million condoms going to Zambia, 40 million to Rwanda, 145 million to Ethiopia in the past five years.

Some critics, like rockers-turned-advocates Bono and Bob Geldof, have become admirers.

"The Bush regime has been divisive ... created bitterness — but not here in Africa. Here, his administration has saved millions of lives," Geldof wrote in Time Magazine as he accompanied Bush on an Africa trip last February.

"The administration and Bush himself deserve a lot more credit than they received for getting this job done," says Josh Ruxin, assistant professor of public health at Columbia University.

Desperately poor Rwanda, where Ruxin runs a health care project, now has more than 100 centers where people can receive AIDS testing, counseling and treatment, up from just two in 2002.

"I am heartbroken overall by the Bush administration," Ruxin said in a telephone interview. "But from my perch here in Rwanda, it is impossible to deny the results and achievements of PEPFAR. Many Rwandans were made Republicans because this was the first administration that has taken an interest and done something here."

Ruxin hopes Obama will learn lessons from PEPFAR's first five years — in particular to end the emphasis on abstinence and start funding groups who work with prostitutes and carry out abortions.

PEPFAR's biggest single success story is the fortyfold increase in the number of Africans receiving life.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 11:19 PM

LH:

Why would anybody risk going to country with an inferior health care system when theirs is better?

You want it both ways bub.


Belinda Stronach seeks cancer care in US

When Liberal MP Belinda Stronach needed a mastectomy and breast reconstruction following her breast cancer diagnosis earlier this year, she headed to California.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 07:05 PM

Joe Gibbs is running Toyotas, Donuel...

And, fir the record, the US is also in 1st place on inflicting deaths in non-3rd World countries...

I mean, lets give credit where it is due...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 11:45 AM

Yup. Number one at inflicting fatalities on Third World people too, I would think. Number one on toppling foreign governments through CIA-arranged and assisted coups. And number one in imprisoning their own citizens. Impressive!

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 11:02 AM

Remember the chants of we're number ONE!

The US may still be near the bottom of math scores, infant mortality and a number of other measurments, but need I remind you America is STILL NUMBER ONE in other areas such as the NFL, Hedge Fund managers and NASCAR.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 10:55 AM

Perhaps its only the imagined fear of the 2% wealthy and the .03% ultra wealthy but they are the only ones who are claiming CLASS WARFARE by Obama.

Its been the FOX talking point for months now.

The rest of us are either fighting to survive what is left of the economy after the successful robbery of the treasury by Bush Wall St. cronies, dealing with health care costs, foreclosures, robbed pensions or hunger.

The right wing responds with abolish social security, abolish unemployment insurance, abolish minimum wage, abolish the Education Dept. and a host of other similar wonderful ideas.

If there is any class warfare the rich apparently got in the first strike.

It reminds me of the Bush doctrine of preventative war.

For gods sake tell me why the rich felt it necessary to attack? You might say greed is the reason but they already had more money than god.

You might say all the people on Wall St. , except a few ignored or fired whistle blowers, all felt that since everybody else was doing it (going along with preposterous schemes) it was OK. That is basicly the excuse that Germans used after WW2.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 10:19 AM

As I told you, Sawzaw, we have Americans who come up to Canada for medical aid too. And they also go to France, Mexico, Cuba, Italy, all over the place for medical help they can't possibly get in the USA.

But you'll never hear about any of those people on your media, because your media are in denial just like the rest of you seem to be, and their main job is dispensing false propaganda to keep you that way.

There's a multi-billion dollar medical industry lobby group in your country that desperately seeks out the very, very few Canadians they can find who go to the USA for medical help and they publicize those few cases in your media....and they probably pay some of those Canadians a hefty bribe to give a testimonial about an incident like that one you posted. We don't do that in Canada because, frankly, we're not that insecure about our own situation that we feel we need to bribe anyone to prove to anyone else how good it is. But...we're still not near as good as France, Spain, Italy, Austria, Japan or Saudia Arabia...and I'm not a bit afraid to admit that. I KNOW Canada isn't number one in the medical field. Canadians face reality and aren't devastated by it. Americans seem unwilling to do that one simple thing, because they simply can't bear it, having been raised to believe they live in "the greatest country on Earth". Your country has a serious ego problem. It thinks it's "the best" at everything. It's not. Neither is any other country. We are all very good at some things, less good at other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 08:21 AM

Not even in the Top 20 in infant mortality...

I mean, lets get real here... Our health care sysytem is way too expensive and, unless we are part of the upper 5%, then it get rationed out to the rest of US...

Dick Cheney wake up feelin' poor and he get's eeen... Me??? Call the doctor and it's maybe next week unless I want to sit in the waiting romm of the emergency room for 6 hours to be seen and every possibly misdiagnosed... Been there and done that and the Tee-shirt reads "6 hours in ER and I'm sicker now"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 12:18 AM

"The USA ranks 37th in health care among the nations of the world"

Canadian official Danny Williams opted to have his heart surgery in the U.S. instead of in his homeland

Williams, premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, apparently needed surgery on a leaky heart valve, a problem discovered when doctors detected a heart murmur. According to news accounts, he chose to have the surgery done in Florida, where he could take advantage of a minimally invasive through-the-armpit procedure that promised to leave no scar on his chest and would allow for a speedier recovery

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 05:34 PM

Yeah, and that is a lot of money... Ike might have warned US of the militray/industrail complex but the health-care/industrial complex makes the militarty/industrial complex folks look like kids scamblin' for crumbs...

And yer right... For what??? Crappy health care???

The righties will come along and say, " Obamacare this, Obamacare that"... That just a bunch of crybabies who rmember well what Gingrich told his buddies back in the 90s and that is if the Dems get health care reform into place that the Repubs would suffer for years... Well, it's not in place yet and we expect the Repubs to try to sabatouge it in any way they can but Gingrich's warnings still hold true... When we are insuring everyone and costs come down Obama is going to look the Dems are going be seen as heros...

(But, Boberdz... It going to bankrupt the government...)

No, it isn't... The cost of the program for 10 years is less than half of the pile of cast that Wall Street has just sitting collecting dust...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 05:10 PM

Excuse me....not "yearly budget"...GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 05:08 PM

Yes, you are right, Bobert. I used the wrong terminology. It is pretty astounding that the country which spends the largest percentage of its yearly budget in the entire world, 17% on health care!, ranks 37th in the quality of health care given. What that indicates is that there's something terribly wrong with that health care system and that your public is being ripped off.

Here is a color chart which shows at a glance the comparative level of quality of health care in nations across the world:

quality of health care around the globe

It ranges from the best (dark blue) to the worst (red). As can easily be seen, France, Spain, Italy, Austria, Greece, Saudi Arabia (surprise!), and Japan have the best health care. The worst are mostly countries in southern Africa (no surprise there). The USA is about at the same level as much of Latin America, although Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, and Cuba are all somewhat better, as is Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 04:46 PM

Yer figure is off, LH... We are spending way more that 17% of our budget on health care.... It's 17% of our entire Gross National Product!!!

This is one reson why the US is no longer competetive with it's industrialized countyerparts...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 03:20 PM

People go both ways across that border for medical treatment that they can't get at home, Sawzaw. They go to the USA from Canada and to Canada from the USA. They also go to Mexico, France, and Cuba to get treatments they can't get in Canada or the USA. All these people have their own specific reasons for seeking treatment in some other country, those reasons may be good ones, and each one has a unique story. If you wish to find out all the reasons involved, you will have to speak to those individuals, not to me.

The only part I can tell you about is my part, which is: In Canada I can get full medical treatment from a doctor or a hospital at no additional cost, and I pay quite a modest sum in my yearly taxes for that privilege, so I happily choose Canada over the USA when it comes to that. I can't get absolutely anything here, but I can certainly get most of the things I need, at a cost I can easily afford.

As I've pointed out before, I will compliment the USA on what the USA does well, just as I will compliment Canada on what Canada does well. I am not speaking for Canada, I'm simply observing what's happening around me. Both countries do certain things very well. Both countries do certain things not so well. Canada is also far down the list for medical treatment in the world. I think we are at number 35 or around there. France is number 1.

I'm well aware that there are limits on freedoms, and I would not describe myself as a Libertarian, because I most certainly do not believe that "the least government" is necessarily "the best government".

The necessary limits on freedoms in any society are the limits set to prevent people from harming others and/or harming the property of others. Those limits would apply to behaviours such as:

assault
slander
fraud
murder
rape
theft
dangerous driving
property destruction
kidnapping
arson
vandalism
slavery
etc...

I am entirely in favor of a government limiting people's freedom to commit such harmful and offensive acts. Any society places some necessary limits on freedom, and that suits me fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 02:49 PM

Yoo Hoo Little Hawk. I thought you were not speaking for Canada.

Why are people smuggled out of Canada to the US for medical treatment if everything is free and easy?

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 02:43 PM

"I won't accuse you of stalking me."

LH: If my question about prostitution bothered you, it was not personal, just designed to hit home.

I was just trying to point out that there are limits to freedoms.

You are quite obviously a Libertarian which is fine. But there are limits even for libertarians just like there are limits on Government, how fast you can drive, how much taxes you can pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: pdq
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 12:57 PM

"...the USA ranks 37th in health care among the nations of the world..."

That is an opinion, not a fact.

I'm sure Abu Dabi has the finest health care in the world because they have enough oil money they could divide it evenly and every citizen would be a multi-millionaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 09:32 AM

Now, there ya go again, Bobert- as Senile Ronnie used to say- trying to change Douggie's mind with facts.

In the throes of his regular delusions, he wouldn't recognize a fact if it reared up on its hind legs and bit him on the ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 09:27 AM

That's incredible, Bobert! In Canada the treatment would have been free...no charge to you....but the Canadian medical establishment would still make all that money, of course, they would just draw it from the collective tax pool, because the government would pay them. Be that as it may, the load is tremendously easier on the individual citizen that way, because the cost gets spread around evenly among 22 million people, and we aren't all sick at the same time!!! Thus it costs me WAY less a year to have full medical coverage through public health insurance than it costs the average American to get it through buying private health insurance. Americans spend MORE per capita on health costs than citizen of any other nation in the world....17% of the whole yearly budget!, and yet, the USA ranks 37th in health care among the nations of the world. You never hear an American politician say "peep" about it, except for Dennis Kucinich. They'd rather perpetuate the popular myth that the USA has the best health care in the world...and the best everything else too, of course. And people believe it!!!!!! All that proves is that if a lie is told often enough, as the Nazis discovered, it will be believed by nine of out ten citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 09:18 AM

I don't know why you would find it "hiaroius", Dougie, seein' as Obama has just done with his 1st budget as president what George Bush was able to do in any year of his administration...

That might not make Obama a "deficit hawk" but it seems if we look at those folks out there who define themselves as deficit hawks all we are seeing is chin music and no action... In other words, it's one thing to talk the talk but quite another to walk the walk... Right now yer side is hopelessly stuck in the talk stage of the deal...

B~

BTW, LH... You absolutely correct about a cure for cancer... The health-care/industrial complex is quite dependent on cancer... The bills for my late wife Judy's treatment were almost $400,000... That's on shit load of cash...

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 01:31 AM

No, Guest 999, that's not me. I guess it's a copy cat.

Bobert: I think it's hilarous that you are trying to convince folks that Obama is a deficit hawk. The only thing that would be more unbelievable would be if you believed it.

The only consolation defenders of the Obama administration might have is; they brought it on themselves. Can't blame Bush for it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 01:08 AM

Actually, Bobert, the medical profession is (in my opinion) absolutely terrified that someone might find a real cure to cancer, and they would move heaven and Earth to prevent that from happening, because THINK of the money they would lose!

There already are (in my opinion) real cures out there for cancer, and they don't involve radiation, chemotherapy or surgery. They don't involve drugs either. You ain't gonna hear a peep about any of them from mainstream medicine, except for various attacks upon anyone proposing such cures.

So you're darned right that if Obama found a cure for cancer, they would attack him for it. You betcha. They'd destroy him if he dared to do such a thing, because it would threaten a multi-billion dollar racket that is presently being practiced by the MDs and the drug companies and the AMA.

They will one day be seen the way the medieval doctors who bled everybody are now seen....as quacks. In my opinion.

I am glad I am not in Mr Obama's shoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:44 PM

No, pdq, only righties get a headache figuring out exactly what an annual deficit of surplus means... It's the easiest of all of them because all it is is like yer check book: debits and credits... In other words: Revenuse - expenditure...

But then their is the national debt which is "carried over" mush like a small business might carry a debt over... That get's real tricky because the bonds that the government has sold come due with various rates of interest and so there is this constant influx of new cash coming in to buy new bonds or notes and another steady stream of cash goin' back out... So, yeah, the national debt can go up becaause of these factors in a year where the government reduced the debt from the prvious year' debt but in the long run...

...we do need to get a grip on debt...

I give Obama credit for reducing the annual deficit... Esecially in these times of less revenues coming into the government and increased costs of unemployement... Hey, I really wouldn't care if the anti-Oama folks didn't get up and cheer but a begrudging, "Ya got lucky" would at least acknowledge the facts on the ground...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: pdq
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:43 PM

CBS News is hardly a source of Republican-biased reporting, so here is their take on the...
                                                                     
                                                                                             Obama's 3 trillion dollar deficit

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:21 PM

". . . is just plain horsepuckey."

Doug, is that YOU?

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: pdq
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:51 PM

"...Obama reducing the annual budget deficit by $100B got headlines in the Charlotte Observer that were negative against Obama..."

One could get a headache trying to expalin the difference between "budget deficit", "public debt", "intergovernmental debt", "budget items", "off-budget items" and the "National Debt", but here is a fact: The National Debt has gone up by 3 trillion dollars in the last two years and finding some way to say that Obama has reduced it is just plain horsepuckey.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:40 PM

"That is why this election cyle is so frustration... I mean, Obama could find a cure for cancer tomorrow and the headlines would read, "Obama Trying to Put Doctors Out of Work"..."

Brilliant, Bobert. Couldn't have been put better.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:31 PM

But nevermind that stuff...

This is about unpopular views of Obama which the corporate media seems to have down pat...

I mean, even Obama reducing the annual budget deficit by $100B got headlines in the Charlotte Observer that were negative against Obama... They read something like this... "Debt Plagues Obama, Repubs Pounce"... Now if you were to compare the headlines with the story you'd have to go, Huh?" so I guess that having the annual budget deficit fall by $100B must not have been to popular with the corporate media... Maybe they would have been happier if the deficit went up, I donno???

Couple weeks ago when the Dems were closing the gap in the polls the "liberal' (ha) Washington Post did about the same thing with the headline which went kinda like this: "Repubs Still Zeroing in on Taking Back the House"... Huh??? The rest of the story was about the dems closing to within 4% points... Why not, "Dems Closing Gap"???

That is why this election cyle is so frustration... I mean, Obama could find a cure for cancer tomorrow and the headlines would read, "Obama Trying to Put Doctors Out of Work"...

So, it seems that the only folks who are going to find good news welcoming when it comes to Obama are just folks who go stright to page 17 in the newspapers where some truth can be found...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:27 PM

I donno about maples, Chongz... I mean, you look at a 6 foot tall maple and what you don't see is that that 6 foot tall tree allready has a root system that goes out 15 feet in all directions... You know, kinda hoggin' all the water from everything else... I kinda think that trees should share but the maple, like Boss Hog, ain't interested in sharin'... Now the cedar is 180 degress from the maples... It has a nice tap root and not much fiberous stuff so it's kinda thinkin' green and not trying to leave too muc of a carbon or root footprint... Yeah, tell ya' what, I'll interview the cedar... Heck I got a couple three of them right here on the farm and we're real tight so reckon thet ain't gonna try to BS me...

BTW, I donno about ineteviewing but one redwood 'casue ya' know what Spiro T told us abpout 'um, "ya see one and you seen 'um all" so I reckon that means that they all gonna stick to one story... But poplras suck anyway... They are weed trees... No, not that kinda weed...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:53 PM

Yeah, okay. I would not want to be accused of bein' rude.

Now, I had an idea here. For unpoplar views of the Obama Administration, y' know?

What I figger we should do is interview all the maples, oaks, cedars, birches, chestnut trees, fir trees, redwoods, and all them other trees that don't get no mention in the poplar press. About time the other trees had their say. We have heard plenty enough from the damned poplars by now. They are just a splinter group anyways, and their bark is way worse than their bite.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:16 PM

Cool, Chongz... I was just gettin' me a case of autumnal depression and this chears me up... But leave them shovels behind... Brass knuckles okay but hittin' folks with shovels is rude...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM

No kiddin'. I know all about it.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 03:09 PM

Careful, Chongo.

You DON'T want to mess with the Democratic Machine in Chi town- they still have a number of "shovel-ready" projects you could be a part of...

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 02:51 PM

Sounds like a fun way to spend the day, Bobertz. I'll take a trip down there soon as I clear up a little problem here in Chi-town with a coupla gorillas that are too stupid to take "no" for an answer. Shouldn't take too long.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:56 PM

Well, come on down, Chongz... As for the local redneck joints??? They purdy pitiful... These rednecks 'round here ain't hardly worth kickin' on but...

... maybe me an you can go a couple rounds before retiring to the trailer fir some weed, whites and wine... Maybe invite some of my hillbilly friends over... Sorry, but they ain't got too much redneck in 'um and ain't into fightin'... But they fun to party with even if they don't know the joys that come with bustin' up yer knuckles on someone who is willin to return the favor... Yeah, hillbillies just missed that day in school...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 12:16 PM

That is an excellent parable for our times.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 11:48 AM

Here ya go, Chongo. Just received this one from another friend.

"HEAVEN
AND HELL   

While walking down the street one day a Corrupt Senator was tragically hit by
a car and died.

His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.

"Welcome to heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in, it seems there is
a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we're not
sure what to do with you."

"No problem, just let me in," says the Senator.

"Well, I'd like to, but I have orders from the higher ups. What we'll do is have
you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend
eternity."

"Really?, I've made up my mind. I want to be in heaven," says the Senator.

"I'm sorry, but we have our rules."

And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down,
down to hell.

The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In
the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and
other politicians who had worked with him.

Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him, shake his
hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at the expense
of the people.
They played a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and the
finest champagne.

Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who is having a
good time dancing and telling jokes.

They are all having such a good time that before the Senator realizes it, it
is time to go.

Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises.

The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens in heaven where St. Peter is
waiting for him, "Now it's time to visit heaven...���

So, 24 hours passed with the Senator joining a group of contented souls moving
from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before
he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.

"Well, then, you've spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your
eternity."

The Senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: "Well, I would never have
said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better
off in hell."

So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell...

Now the doors of the elevator open and he's in the middle of a barren land covered
with waste and garbage. He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the
trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above

The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulders.

"I don't understand," stammers the Senator. "Yesterday I was here and there was
a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and
danced and had a great time. Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my
friends look miserable. What happened?"

The devil smiles at him and says,   

"Yesterday we were campaigning, Today, you voted.."
   
Vote wisely."

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:35 AM

"Facts - You wouldn't know them if they bit you on yer ass"

Oh, yeah...what a great way to start a conversation! That's just guaranteed to get things off on the right foot! ;-D Yer a real dimplomat, Bobertz. You oughta come to Chi-town and talk to the local gorillas like that, you'd never have a dull day! No siree.

You lookin' for some real aggravation, man? You want some in-yer-face arguin'? Well, I got a little free time next week, see? I'll bring down a set of brass knuckles and a baseball bat and we can talk "politics" all day, bust up the furniture, knock out a few teeth, give the P-vine somethin' to really get ticked off about, and maybe get you kicked out of the house fer a month or so. Ha! Then you and me can go down to the local boozery, kick some redneck ass, and drown our sorrows in cheap hooch till the cows come home. If the cops show up, I'll just flash my badge. No problemo. Can you take noogies, man? I deliver fierce noogies when I put a guy in a headlock, but I bet you can take 'em. Rock on, Roscoe. I'll see you soon, okay?

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:03 AM

"Facts", sawz... You wouldn't know them if they bit you on yer ass... No, you don't present "facts"... You present what some rightwinged blogger's so-called facts... It ios a fact that the Obama administartion cut the annual deficit by $100B... Even a very right winged newspaper reported it but rather than give credit you plug into the twisted version that the Republican Party wants you to ***believe***??? And, so, belive you do...

I mean, when it comes to sound policy you take the mythological side over and over and over, Sawz...

Continuing tax cut to wealthy produces jobs??? No, it won't...

Cutting taxes is the way to fight the deficit??? No, it isn't...

The list goes on and on where you take the uneducated mythological side???

Facts???

But when this is pointed out to you you find menaingless stuff like what kind of gun it was that Donnie Rumsfeld gave Saddam or what kind of plane Obama used... Who cares???

The country is sufferring the effects of 30 years of a bad economic idea and has brought US to crisis... That is the real issue... Not sideshow BS... You are just playing games to try to keep the real discussions from occuring... But then again that is the entire Republican strategy to get back in power... Blame Obama for ya'll's messes... And when that is brought to yer attention it's sideshow time om ya'lls part...

Normal...

B~




B~

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:00 AM

LOL!!!!!!!!! Great Canadian political joke!

For Americans who might not get it: Stephen Harper is the present prime minister of Canada. Ignatieff, Duceppe, and Layton are the leaders of 3 other political parties in Canada. The general public is quite annoyed with all of them most of the time, because they do not serve the general public, they serve a bunch of special interests. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:38 AM

I spent two months in Inuvik one week.

The ONE good thing I can and will say about Bush is that he's been quiet about the present administration. I don't hate Bush. I feel he was manipulated. Companies got rich from kids getting killed in Iraq--an ill-defined war the parameters of which the world public has never been informed. The present US debt was caused mostly by that war, and little seems to have changed.

People who don't like Obama might wish to cut him a bit of slack. He got stuck with the debt just as surely as did most people. Interesting that Halliburton is still going strong, but wtf.

To put some perspective on Canada vs United States:

I received this email from a friend this morning and thought y'all might enjoy it.

"STEPHEN HARPER was visiting an Ontario primary school and the class was in
the middle of a discussion related to words
and their meanings.
The teacher asked Mr. Harper if he would like to lead the discussion on
the word 'Tragedy'.

So our illustrious leader asked the class for an example of a 'Tragedy'.

A little boy stood up and offered: If my best friend, who lives on a farm,
is playin' in the field and a tractor runs
over him and kills him, that would be a tragedy.

Incorrect,said Harper. That would be an accident.

A little girl raised her hand: If a school bus carrying fifty children
drove over a cliff, killing everybody inside,
that would be a tragedy.

'I'm afraid not',explained Harper, that's what we would refer to as a
great loss''

The room went silent. No other children volunteered. Harper searched the
room.

Isn't there someone here who can give me an example of a tragedy?

Finally, at the back of the room, little Jo hnny raised his hand and said:

If a plane carrying you and Mr. Ignatieff and Mr. Layton and Mr. Duceppe
and yourself were struck by a 'friendly fire'
missile & blown to smithereens, that would be a tragedy.

Fantastic, exclaimed Harper, and can you tell me why that would be a
tragedy?
Well, said Johnny, it has to be a tragedy, because it certainly wouldn't
be a great loss, and it probably wouldn't be a fu**ing accident either!"

As a btw, I too have travelled extensively in both the US and Canada. The political map is all wrong. North America is north-south in both a geographical sense and an economic sense. That said, y'all go back to cheering for whatever. I agree with Will: ALL politics is apple sauce. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 09:37 AM

Well said, Sawzaw. ;-) You have explained yourself well. Okay, I won't accuse you of stalking me.

There are certain good points and bad points about all countries, I think. Well.....most of them! Anyway, both Canada and the USA have certain better points than the other in certain respects. I just sort of freewheel around and comment on what I see happening, so if there's some comparative point I see, then I mention it, and that's really all there is to it. I think, for example, that the American elected Senate is a better idea than the Canadian appointed Senate, because the people should have a say about who gets to be a senator and whether he or she remains one!

As it is now, the Canadian political party that is in power just gets to practice patronage by appointing a few new senators who will back THAT party in future votes against the other parties. That's not good. The American system is way better when it comes to that.

Another thing that the USA has going for it is a certain kind of brash adventurous spirit that charges out and takes things on. That can be good, provided it's aimed at a worthwhile target. Canadians tend to be less proactive in that sense, so that's another good point for the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Unpopular Views of Obama Administration
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 02:21 AM

For some reason my last post was cut off:

That is not the way society works. It is the way that society does not work. It is the way society breaks down into "us or them" "there is no way we are ever going to get along with them so we will just have to fight and overpower them".

Muslims and Jews? Hutu and Tutsi? Bloods and Crips? Everybody can see what senseless conflicts those are but they continue to practice the same thing

It is sad that people have forgotten how to get along when we all want basically the same things. We just disagree on how to achieve them.