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BS: The Drugging of our Children
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:03 PM >>>"School isn't supposed to be fun, anyway. That's an American spoil-the-kids-completely thing, stems from the generations of no discipline or you'll stifle the poor little one's naturalness... Poppycock. Civilization is all about squashing nature. It bugs me no end when educators talk about how to make science or whatever Fun. This is school! Fun is for after school! (Sigh. I wish I could turn back the clock and raise my kids in Europe.)"<<< Actually, it kinda sounds as if you wished you'd not had children in the first place. What a shame you think your children should have been 'educated' with their nose to the grindstone, spending the vast majority of their waking hours 'tied' to desks, being 'forced' to learn things they have NO interest in. IF adults were treated in the office/work world in the same way that children are so often treated in schools, there'd be national uproar and law suits whizzing back and forth enough to keep lawyers even richer for the rest of their days.. Why on EARTH should children NOT be *happy* at school? Why on earth should they not have fun? Why should they not be allowed to move, talk, wriggle, laugh, jiggle, drink, go to the bathroom when they need to...? The Controlling Ones have been in control for way too long...and you know what, The Controlling Ones don't actually *like* children in the first place. They don't understand them, don't relate to them, they're all about facts and figures and exams and pass rates and tick boxes and........obedience. The wonder and joy of being a child has been taken away from so many... Here, from a man who does understand, not only children, but the entire Corporate Education System, because he taught in it for over 30 years, as an Award Winning New York teacher..the wonderful, John Taylor Gatto..look his videos up on youtube and you may be astounded by what you start to learn...Read his great book 'Dumbing Us Down' and you'll learn even more... "Whatever an education is, it should make you a unique individual, not a conformist; it should furnish you with an original spirit with which to tackle the big challenges; it should allow you to find values which will be your road map through life; it should make you spiritually rich, a person who loves whatever you are doing, wherever you are, whomever you are with; it should teach you what is important, how to live and how to die." - John Taylor Gatto Taken from this site: John Taylor Gatto quotes |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,Jon Date: 08 Nov 10 - 03:02 PM Not sure I agree there Mrzzy. Would you for example chose and ram down some Bartok piece I could not relate to down our throats (although it was in the O level corriculum) or have me learning singing with others? Would you rather I came the person who my teacher, Mr Harris was quoted as saying "he is the only person I have ever hoped fails his exams" or recognise that for many times in my life I have sung and if well enough would go back to being an active (Irish) session player? I will not say my own attitude to education at many times could not of been better. I will not say that I did not go through a rebellious way that very much got in the way. On the other hand, I might question the schools failure to properly recognise I genuinely had an interest (which has proved lasting) in music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Mrrzy Date: 08 Nov 10 - 02:45 PM School isn't supposed to be fun, anyway. That's an American spoil-the-kids-completely thing, stems from the generations of no discipline or you'll stifle the poor little one's naturalness... Poppycock. Civilization is all about squashing nature. It bugs me no end when educators talk about how to make science or whatever Fun. This is school! Fun is for after school! (Sigh. I wish I could turn back the clock and raise my kids in Europe.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,Jon Date: 08 Nov 10 - 12:58 PM Not sure I am really following you after all Lizzie. I do think much could be made more interesting in school and I am aware of differences in teaching and areas. Singing together for example helped give me a love of music but my Skinners time in secondary school even though I got as far as O level before failing to turn up for the exams as riding a motor bike was more interesting could have knocked music out of me but I suppose I was in my own rebellious stage there. Some things educationally, I regret now. Some things I was forced to do I am grateful for. The simplest example being forced into the kitchen by mother. Although circumstances may be entirely different, I think I wind up in a similar state to Richard on this. I got very basics, I can do a roast (made myself a Christmas dinner with all the trimmings once when I was on my own) a start with get some oil, fry some onions, etc. and make a mince meal, stew or whatever is familiar. I would never have to be dependant on shop bought microwaves or takeaways. I learned enough. I am far from sure I enjoyed it at the time but I am glad I was made to learn "survival cooking". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Nov 10 - 11:30 AM Actually, I think you'll find that LOADS of entrepeneurs failed miserably at school, couldn't wait to leave it and do their own thing... My brother who's severely dyslexic, is going to leave a treasue map and a spade when he dies... Ha! He tripled the size of his Somerset cottage, all paid for in cash...He can turn his hand to anything, restore anything back to its original state..Spends his time with those folks on rubbish dumps, picking through bits of this and that...They're all the same, can't read, can't write... Ted, who used to be in charge of our local dump when we lived in Somerset couldn't sign the log book when he bought our old car, merely signed his X on the spot, but....Ted designed and built his own house, slap bang in the middle of the Somerset Levels, where foundations alone beggar belief... Pig-ignorance has never impressed me, espcially when it comes from those who deem themselves well educated folks, who love blowing their own trumpets...whilst shoving damp cloths into the trumpets of others... And nope, I've not inherited my brother's gift for making money, although I tend to regard it as a curse, 'cos it dominates his life somewhat, but...he's successful and happy with his lot...Each to their own.. But at school he was told, constantly, what an idiot he was, how lazy he was, because he wasn't interested. His mind was away with ancient coins, which he collected..rare books, junk shops and making a profit..and he did exactly that, right from when he was a little boy.. I've letters from us both, back home to Mum and Dad, when we stayed up in Wales with our grandparents....He was around 9, I was around 6. His letters were very formal, filled with facts about the coins he'd bought, how much he'd paid for them, how much he hoped to sell them for etc...what he was looking for next..My letters were filled with Paddington Bear, what he and I had been up to on our holidays (steady boys!)..and fun, humour and excitement about going to town with my Granny, on the top deck of the bus, where I could drink in all around me far better... I'm visual, you see... He's factual... All fascinating stuff..to me at least...and the reason why I get so damned fed up with the crap things happening in some schools, even to this day... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Nov 10 - 11:17 AM Sigh......................... I give up, Richard. You go your way then....but just remember, many folks out there have been severely damaged due to stunted, blinkered, arrogant outlooks, and that damage often lasts a lifetime... What the fook is a 'slanted intellect', by the way? Is it one which doesn't match up to your idea of what an 'intellect' should be, by any chance? Yeah, geniuses are often hard to work with, ain't they...That's 'cos their minds are precision engines, working 24/7, no servicing ever needed, no oiling required...barely resting, thinking, thinking, thinking....way ahead of what you could even imagine, Richard... Hey, go and watch Temple Grandin's inspirational TED talk called 'Why The World Needs Different Kinds of Brains'....you might just learn something........ .....but then again...... ;0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Nov 10 - 11:08 AM Lizzie, the ones who succeed despite "slanted intellects" are very very very very rare (and hugely frustrating to work with - I have had interactions with Branson: I bet you don't remember Virgin's music contracts with large nominal advances that often were less realised than hoped for - I'll say no more, there was litigation about a related expression). You do people no favours at all by letting them play in stead of working. And I'm not a one-dimensional person - I didn't let myself be one. My first degree was in Mechanical Engineering, my second in Law - because I took the trouble to learn to do different things. I was captain of squash. I was the individual debating champion. I am (well, after a fashion) a musician. When I was at university people told me I was a dancer. I can cook a meal (an easy one), or fix a computer (well, sometimes). I can do lots of different things - because I bothered to, not because they came easily. I can't sew or knit - because I never bothered to. They'd be useful skills now, so maybe I should have bothered. Don't make excuses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:27 AM Here ya go, take a listen to this man...a man who could only keep his world 'still' by moving all the time, much to the huge annoyance of his teachers... Of course, he couldn't read either, so he was called a retard, and he went through absolute hell at school.... The man is a genius, of course. Ron Davies on Dyslexia We are *still* not fully aware, not fully understanding, not fully WILLING to believe that we are ALL different....and the dreaded National Curriculum which demands that all learn the same things, pretty much at the same time, throughout the USA and the UK is doing terrible damage to many wonderful, beautiful young people...and I mean 'Beauty' of the Soul. Ron Davies again - A Little of his Story - Part 1 Richard Branson on being dyslexic, how he had no understanding of school whatsoever, how he'd have failed IQ tests..AND...listen to him say that if he's not interested in something, then he simply cannot grasp learning about it.. Trust me, Richard, THAT is EXACTLY what happens inside the mind of many people..I am one of those people...That does not make any of us Dumb. Listen again to him telling the story of how he never understood the difference between 'net' and 'gross' profits, until very recently, when an empathetic person told him to think of it in pictures...PICTURES!! You see, our minds think IN ***pictures***, we know no other way, I cannot imagine thinking in words, it's beyond my comprehension to do that, but...I UNDERSTAND that many people DO think that way.. Sir Richard Branson - TED talk about Dyselexia, ADD and ADHD Just think, you'd have probably expelled Richard Branson as well as me.. :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Nov 10 - 06:06 AM But I don't waste the opportunities to learn. That's the entire point your missing. What *wastes* opportunities, and is causing untold distress to many children and young people is this crazy idea that you must *force* people, for instance, to be a scientist, when every bone in their body belongs to an artist... If a child is able to learn the things that interest them, they will take off in many ways, bringing in all other forms of learning about so much else along the way. By 'forcing' you are turning off the *natural* instinct of learning that we are all born with. "I don't care what you are interested in Lizzie..." No, I'm well aware that you don't. I however know that law, legal matters come naturally to you..as does the pedantic mind which is able to retain so many facts and figures. Sadly, so often, those kinds of minds are also unable to understand that not all brains light up in the same areas that theirs do. And so, intolerance occurs.... And the emotional, creative people, who's brains are EQUALLY as important, are battered and bruised, both verbally and emotionally, by brains that cannot feel empathy, and refuse to believe anyone but their own minds. That damage is so often seen in angry children, disruptive children...who go on to become the alcoholics, the drug addicts, the homeless, the Big Issue sellers....and yet many of them have the most creative, incredible imaginations... When they are taught by teachers with similar brain patterns, they thrive..because each brain pattern understands the other...and so their teacher encourages them in the arts, in writing, in reading, in music, sport and dance, because they understand where the strengths of those people lie. Many geniuses are written off by their teachers....because they already think for themselves, way beyond the capacity and ability that their teacher may have. They also wriggle, jiggle and sometimes giggle..and probably are pretty much a real pain in the arse to 'teach' and 'control'...and so they get expelled...or these days, drugged up to calm their minds down, purely because the very people who deem themselves to be MORE intelligent than others, cannot cope with minds that race ahead of theirs and who are not interested in knowing things which their teacher may literally LIVE for. Perhaps it's time to climb down from your Chair of Arrogance? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:34 AM I don't care what you are interested in Lizzie. Do what needs to be done, whether you are interested or not. Can you not get it through your head that duty diligence and perseverance are necessary for life? Have you never read or heard "The ant and the grasshopper"? You think that you are entitled to attend to what interests you and to ignore the rest. That way cuddly little animals die in the Serengeti. I would not waste drugs on you. I'd simply expel you. Incidentally, I don't believe we were "put on this earth". We just happen to be here, and we need to make what we can of ourselves. Wasting the opportunity to learn greatly reduces your chances of an enjoyable life later on. Irresponsibility usually comes back to bite you on the bum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:22 PM "Lizzie, what can you actually do that is useful? Saying "pretty sky, pretty flowers" really is even less use than picking up dole money and smoking crack." Well, I'm quite 'useful' for getting you to show yourself up all the time. ;0) I was saying that many children are being drugged up to the eyeballs because they simply don't give a darn about scientific math or the in's and out's of grimmer grammar or some other subject which they have no interest in. I have a mind that thinks very differently to yours, (phew!), but that does not make me better or worse than you, simply 'different'. I would not expect you to be interested in the way the sun is shining on the leaves, or the colour of flowers, or the beauty in someone's wrinkles, yet you expect me to be interested in all that YOU are interested in. Why? I understand that many children NEED to wriggle and jiggle and giggle. You, I think, do not. I understand that children are not meant to sit down all day long...let alone study, study, STUDY! I understand that we are all born free and have the right to remain so throughout our lives. You feel, I believe, that we are put on this earth to be 'obedient' and the earlier we learn to be so, the better. I realise that many children who have no interests in certain subjects whilst at school, often go on to revel in those subjects at a later date, once they're freed from the constant stress and strains of exams, which turn so many kids off learning. Chances are, you'd advise, were you my teacher, that I should be drugged to the eyeballs because I do not agree with you, nor obey you, nor show interest in the things you love. That does not make you right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Richard Bridge Date: 07 Nov 10 - 06:41 PM Lizzie, what can you actually do that is useful? Saying "pretty sky, pretty flowers" really is even less use than picking up dole money and smoking crack. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Smokey. Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:49 PM Harrumph.. waste of good drugs.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Mrrzy Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:13 PM I tried to drug mine somewhere but they gotted away! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:09 AM >>>> Me: "I have absolutely no interest in learning *anything* which does not interest me. I literally just switch off and take my mind somewhere else, inside my head..." Richard:"THat is why you are a waste of space. <<<<< 5 Down - 4 Across :0) Quite the opposite...it's why I'm so happy, most of the time, because I have nothing to prove to anyone. If I ain't interested, I ain't interested and that's that. If I am, then...I WANT to learn.. Part of the reason so many kids are being drugged to their eyeballs is so they can no longer disrupt a class of 'good obedient mind-controlled children' purely because they're simply bored out of their brains by being FORCED to learn things they don't want to, in hot, stuffy classrooms, where they're supposed to sit down for the majority of the day, when the whole point of being YOUNG is that you're fit, healthy and very, very active.... School is still based, in many instances, upon Victorian outlooks of 'Children should be seen but never heard!' It was a bullying, cold, unloving concept back then, it is even more so today when you'd expect us to have moved forwards. But nope, it's 'business as usual' in most schools...and that's about 'control' rather than mutual respect and far more laid back methods of learning.. Chill out... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:56 AM Society depends on diligence, perseverance, and responsibility for its functioning. It's no wonder you can't keep a job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:15 AM "I have absolutely no interest in learning *anything* which does not interest me. I literally just switch off and take my mind somewhere else, inside my head..." THat is why you are a waste of space. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:05 AM "You had been tired, bored, and sleepy to the point that you developed a (temporary) deficit of attention. You treated the deficit with a stimulant. That is what stimulants do for under-stimulated, inattentive people. That is how ritalin works." Maybe you're just bored at school because it's boring? I have absolutely no interest in learning *anything* which does not interest me. I literally just switch off and take my mind somewhere else, inside my head... Richard, children need to be taught that obedience is only good if those who are trying to bring about obedience have your best interests at heart, respect, care and love for you. Any other form of 'obedience training' should be questioned by everyone on the planet....but it won't be, because SO many are now SO 'obedient' to their Corporate Obedience Masters who've had this one sussed for many a long year... Children should also be trained in Rebellion so that they understand where and when to use it, because hell, are they going to need THAT in years to come! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Kent Davis Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:45 AM Richard Bridge, Yes, children do need to be trained to be obedient. There are some children who become rebellious because they are frustrated by their own failures, and those failures are sometimes caused by impaired attention. Improving the attention span of those children can help them succeed, thereby reducing their frustration, and indirectly reducing their rebelliousness. Other children have rebelliousness and inattention as two separate issues. Improving their attention problem just makes them better-focused rebels. This past afternoon I had a 9-year-old patient who wouldn't listen to her father, unless her mother was at home. He thought she needed a medication adjustment. I had to point out that, if she obeyed her mother, and obeyed him when her mother was around, then the problem was not her attention span, and the solution was not medical. Some people forget that ADHD is an impairment of attention, not an impairment of obedience. Kent |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:06 AM Er - children (and other animals) DO have to be trained to be obedient. The failure to do this is the root of the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Kent Davis Date: 05 Nov 10 - 10:42 PM There are many excellent points in this thread. However, some posters seem to think that ritalin and similar drugs SEDATE children. They do not. They are not, and indeed cannot, be used to sedate. Ritalin and similar drugs are stimulants. There is an idea that they work as stimulants in "normal" people, but sedate people with ADHD. This idea is false. They work as stimulants in everyone. Why then do people THINK that they sedate? Because under-stimulated people behave a lot like over-stimulated people. Here's a thought experiment for you: Imagine that you are driving alone, late at night, through western Kansas. The road is straight. There are few other cars on the road. You are seriously under-stimulated. Your attention wavers. A couple of times, you weave across into the other lane. What do you do? You fidget in your seat. You roll the car window up. You roll it back down. You turn the radio on. You change stations. You turn it the radio way up. You turn it off and start singing. You sing louder. You begin dancing in your seat. You are trying to relieve your under-stimulantion. If other people could see you, they would say that you were hyperactive. If they saw how you were weaving about, they would say you were inattentive. Up ahead, you see a truck stop. You pull in and buy a cup of stimulant (coffee). You drive away, not weaving, not fidgeting, no longer under-stimulated. What just happened? You had been tired, bored, and sleepy to the point that you developed a (temporary) deficit of attention. You treated the deficit with a stimulant. That is what stimulants do for under-stimulated, inattentive people. That is how ritalin works. It does not sedate. Kent P.S. So why not treat ADHD with coffee or tea? I DO treat ADHD with coffee or tea. It is sometimes hard to get the dose right (too much of any stimualant increases anxiety, and increased anxiety decreases one's attention span), but caffeine often helps. So does good nutrition, a balanced diet, plenty of exercise, and an enriched (but not chaotic) environment. Avoiding toxins helps. Homeschooling, if done right, is practically curative. I have found, however, that sometimes I have to prescribe a stimulant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: VirginiaTam Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:48 PM more Ken Robinson on the ADHD epidemic |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 01 Nov 10 - 04:44 AM And all day long under fluorescent lights...often trapped in classrooms with vast window space, letting in the burning sun..and many windows in schools aren't opened very much for 'health and safety' reasons ('cos they worry about the kids falling out, or throwing themselves out?) In Sidmouth College the poor things even have to ask *permission* before they can remove their hot, synthetic, sweat-inducing blazers, or overly warm jerseys... ????? The sooner we throw out all bloody control freaks from schools, the better. If these sorts of things took place in offices, there'd be an outrage, but apparently, our children have to be 'trained' to be 'obedient'... Knickers! to that loads of b*llsh*t! The sooner we start LIKING our children, showing them respect, thought, kindness and compassion, the sooner it will start being returned by the children towards their teachers..and the sooner they will WANT to learn as much as they can, rather than being *forced* to learn things they have no interest in. But to end up drugging kids who sometimes are simply playing up, bigtime, because they are bored rigid and fumingly angry at being controlled or treated in such an appalling way, is just beyond belief..and it shows how 'toxic', to use Dorothy's excellent word, the entire school system has become in many places. I do however appreciate that there are some great schools out there, but it's my belief they are, sadly, very much in the minority) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: VirginiaTam Date: 01 Nov 10 - 03:27 AM yes to what Dorothy is saying.. toxins in the food and the surroundings. When I was in school the desks were made of wood. What kind of chemical cocktail is in MDF? Phenol formaldehyde in there definitely. What is in carpet fibre and upholstery now? In some nonflammable clothing. All baby clothes are treated. The sheets we sleep on too. I always wash a new set of sheets and pillow cases 5 to 6 times before using. We do not use those plug in air fresheners. What kind of mix in smelly shampoos, bath gel, body lotion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 31 Oct 10 - 07:15 PM There is increasing research showing that most of our health problems can be directly attributed to toxins in the environment. A close friend eliminated her own bi-polar symptoms by eating good quality food. Her son was poisoned by an organophosphate in school and became learning disabled as a result. She has studied and learned how to help people de-tox and get their lives back - her son and I are two of her first line successes. Without her help I would still be a couch potato - or dead. Another close friend would still be in bed most of everyday instead of being able to lose 50 pounds, work outside the home and have a life. Clear the toxins, clear the body and mind - and spirit! Read - Why David hated Tuesdays. Watch - Waiting for Superman - I was on the verge of tears throughout - I wrote a paper on that addressed many of these issues in 1971. I have seen kids damaged by the schools - bad teachers and toxic buildings. Toxic environments clearly cause behavioural problems - and then the kids are further damaged by being punished for the behaviour caused by the failure of the school, or parents, to provide a safe environment. Is this an over simplification? Look for the research yourselves. It is crystal clear for anyone willing to see it. We are allowing our children and ourselves to be made ill and, sometimes, behaviourally dangerous as long as we allow our governments to continue to allow the multinationals to pollute our air and water. Often the first sign of environmental poisoning is anger. I have experienced it in myself and learned to avoid as much as possible but the toxins are omnipresent. And, yes, our education needs to address the needs of each individual and not just the 20% who fit the system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 31 Oct 10 - 02:47 PM "It is not beyond the pale to tailor education so that it keeps each child involved." Well said, Tam...and it's way WAY overdue that this happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: VirginiaTam Date: 31 Oct 10 - 02:34 PM not pulling your anything RB... I am sickened by the practice of chemically sedating children full stop. I trained as a teacher and spent a fair amount of time in class room in professional and parent helper capacity. Children learn differently. It is not beyond the pale to tailor education so that it keeps each child involved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,Jon Date: 31 Oct 10 - 02:07 PM DAMN! You mean MD's are not infallible? Like the rest of homo sapiens? Whooda Thunkit! I had perhaps very unfairly thought those who say "mindless anti-drug / anti doctor hysteria can be terrifying and sick-making." might have thunked it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Richard Bridge Date: 31 Oct 10 - 01:59 PM Not sure if you are pulling my leg VT. From my point of view the wishy washy crap that looking at pretty flowers is in any way as useful as buckling down and getting an education is what is sickening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Greg F. Date: 31 Oct 10 - 01:55 PM DAMN! You mean MD's are not infallible? Like the rest of homo sapiens? Whooda Thunkit! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,Jon Date: 31 Oct 10 - 01:24 PM On side effects, father was put on Epilim. My mother is a former physio who worked a lot in elderly care. It was her who spotted drug induced parkinsonism and his freezing in doorways. His Epilim was for post stroke epilepsy. The (bleed) stoke was we think caused by streptokinase given for a heart attack he (proven) didn't have (more than likely it was a menniers). Suspect the medical profession gets far more right than wrong but is not infallible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 31 Oct 10 - 11:05 AM Here ya go...... GPs paid thousands of pounds NOT to refer patients - The Telegraph I correct myself above, because it states there it was Torbay Care Trust itself who paid out the money to the GPs. not the Government, but obviously, the money would come from the Government in the first place.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: VirginiaTam Date: 31 Oct 10 - 11:04 AM When we moved to Texas, the school system wanted to put my son (7 years old) on Ritalin. In Virginia he had started kindergarten at 5. In Texas they don't start until 6. So my son was effectively put back among his age peers but not his educational functioning peers. Add to this scenario that when he was in Virginia his skill level was 2nd and 3rd grade reading and comprehension range while he was in kindergarten. He could read, write (though he hated writing) and do simple maths. The Texas school said... we cannot control him. He is always talking, always out of his seat and "helping" other children do their work. Either he goes on ritalin or he will be removed. No lie. The school referred us to a child neurologist who did find mild hyperactivity, high intelligence and very low attention span. We tried ritalin for 3 months. He became a zombie part of the time, part of the time a monster who tried to strangle his 2 year old sister and burn the house down. Who broke things not in curiosity to find out how they worked, but by smashing them in anger. Anger! There was an anger I had never seen in my normally happy little boy. In short I had been given a changeling. He was unhappy in the extreme while on Ritalin, so I took him off and worked with the school to educate him at home part of the week. To be honest he was never the same child after he was on Ritalin that short time. School was more often than not a huge problem for him. He no longer knew how to behave around peers. He was bullied by students and teachers, especially for knowing things beyond what they deemed his remit. Yet he became at network engineer under his own study. Not from college. But by reading the books and solving problems for himself. For fun he writes computer programs in binary on table napkins. Since he was 10 years old, he could sit for hours with a fishing pole in his hand. Now tell me this is someone with ADHD. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 31 Oct 10 - 11:00 AM OK, Greg...so here's the story... I went doolally at Torbay Health Authority about a year back now, when they kept me waiting for 7 weeks before sending someone round to help my 96 year old ex-mother-in-law, with a view to her getting in and out of the bath, in our new flat here..... They finally decided, after talking to Vi, and assessing her for an hour, that at 95 years old as she was then, she was able to stand up, and therefore able to wash herself down at the basin, rather than needing handles fixed to walls to get in and out of the bath. When I went bananas I was told they (the health authority) were millions of pounds in debt, so they'd revised all their procedures... In East Devon, where we used to live, Vi had been helped immediately, assessed, then had handles etc fitted to and around the bath, making her life far easier. I decided to go to the Evening Herlad, the local paper, and to the local TV, BBC 'Spotlight'. 'Spotlight' sent one of their reporters round, who was also the cameraman and soundman too. He sat and talked to me for quite a while, and he told me how he was asked to cover this particular story of surgeries being paid NOT to send patients to specialists. He'd had a knee injury himself, a severe one, after being kicked very badly during a football match. He'd gone to his surgery and been told his knee was badly bruised but it would get better soon. So he struggled on..and on...and on....He went back to his surgery FIVE times...and it was only on the FIFTH time, when he was utterly beside himself, that he was finally sent to a specialist. He was admitted to hospital that same day and operated on the next day. The specialist was horrified at the knee injury he'd been walking around on for weeks. Then, his boss rang him one day and asked him to investigate this story..and he told him that he had to start the investigation with his own doctor's surgery. He was more than a little embarrassed to have to do that, but do it he did....because the allegations turned out to be true. And THAT is why, down here in Torbay, if you need to see a specialist you have to FIGHT for it...and I mean really fight for it. The lady from The Evening Herald told me exactly the same thing, as she'd covered the story for the newspaper..She also told me other things about Torbay Health Trust, none of it good, I'm afraid... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Greg F. Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:38 AM Your documentation? Be specific in citing specific cases, medical conditions involved in the "non-referrals", numbers of cases involved, percentage of the total number of patients in Torbay, etc. Then we'll see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:29 AM Of course, this works the other way too. If I told you, for instance, that down here in Torbay, GP surgeries are PAID **not** to send patients to specialists, would you believe me? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Greg F. Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:21 AM Yup, mindless anti-drug / anti doctor hysteria can be terrifying and sick-making. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: VirginiaTam Date: 31 Oct 10 - 09:15 AM Pass the bucket Richard, me too. This is terrifying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Richard Bridge Date: 31 Oct 10 - 06:13 AM I think I'm going to be sick |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 31 Oct 10 - 05:41 AM 'Dangers of ADHD Drugs' 'Dollars for Docs' - exposing doctors who've taken money from drug companies 'Drug Companies & Doctors' by Marcia Angell - A Story of Corruption |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:49 PM Ok, you're a modern-day teacher...a new little kid comes into your class...and he's a WriggleJiggler, called.... Clifford Stoll ...do you realise that YOU, the teacher, can learn one helluva lot from this amazing child? Or do you ring up his parents and tell them..."You're child isn't concentrating very well, won't stop talking, using his hands...." etc.etc.etc...? How much superb intelligence have we *already* killed off, lost forever to Ritalin and other such drugs, purely because there are those who believe that all children should behave in the same way..and if they don't, then they are 'broken' and need 'fixing'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:24 PM From Tam: "I believe as do some experts that there is a link between ADHD and creativity. I also believe that children now, have little opportunity to develop creativity. Imaginative play has been replaced by television, toys and planned activities...." <<<<<<< This is such a good video, so much truth in here.. Listen to what he says (16 minutes in) about Gillian Lynne, the dancer and choreographer of 'CATS', about how she was taken to the doctor because she couldn't concentrate, couldn't sit still...and he told his parents that she wasn't 'ill'...she was a DANCER! She'd move her body incessantly to music, to sounds...After that, they stopped trying to get her 'diagnosed' and enrolled her in a good Dance Schoool..and the rest, as they do say, is history. And Ken says today she'd probably be diagnosed with ADHD....another who'd have had her talent suppressed and submerged... Gillian, on going to the ballet school for the first time found..."People just like me, people who had to move to think!" 'Do Schools Kill Creativity? - Sir Ken Robinson We have so much to un-learn..and then re-learn.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:09 PM Interesting post, Lizzie - maybe at last I do understand you better and we can be friends? --- On the wider issue my own take is controversial. We have got pretty good at healing physical and mental ailments - perhaps at times too good - to attach a label and to apply a drug is easy. I think there is also a spiritual side to us that we (including churches) do not understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 30 Oct 10 - 11:32 AM "If an ADD child is intersted in a topic or activity (and, I am saying this child was) they have a huge ability to focus. But, unfortunately most school systems require children to focus on many topics and activities, some of which they have little interest in focusing. There lies a problem for many children with ADD, as focusing on these becomes a challenge. In school systems sympathetic and structured to ADD, a child most often performs much better. But, I suspect few are so. Children with an ADD condition should not be confused as being less intelligent than other children. In many cased their intelligence level is actually higher." YESSSSSSS!!!! Brilliantly written, Ed! I have a brain that *will not* concentrate on anything at all unless it's something I'm passionate about. Recently, in my new job, I was told that I *had* to take part in 2 entire days of 'Induction', which included different 'modules' which all needed to be filled in. It's all to do with Health & Safety and countless other crap. This was planned for November... Today, I gave my notice in. Why? Because my brain will never focus on such rubbish, because I'm not interested in it whatsoever, and utterly resent being told that I *have* to do anything at all. I left The National Trust for the same reasons, because there I had three months to fill in a VAST manual about a job I'd already been doing for 2 years...It was so patronising, so trivial and so ridiculously boring that I refused to do it. I was then told the entire shop team would be marked down because of me, so I wrote to Fiona Whatserface, who runs The National Trust and told her where to stick her emotional blackmail and high-costing high-crap training manuels. It was bad enough having to sit still and try to look interested during a two hour lesson in how to use a new till. I failed, wriggled, jiggled and joked all the way through, simply to stop myself from falling asleep or getting up and walking out the room in sheer frustrated frustration at all the lunacy that's going on today... At school most of the class learnt logarithms, but I learnt what the sun did when it shone on the beautiful leaves of the tall silver birch trees outside the maths room window. I'd watch those shadows playing with the fresh green grass, patterning it with a spirograph of different shapes..and I'd 'think' myself outside, feel the breeze on my face. I failed my maths GCE, wrote "I give up!" all over my examination paper, because I was bored rigid, hot (why DO exams always happen in the summer?) and totally fed up with being made to answer stupid questions that were of no interest to me whatsoever... I've never used a logarithm in my life, by the way, but I'm sitting here typing this in my Tree House upstairs flat, gazing out onto my beautiful Mimosa tree, and my Curly Willow tree, marvelling at being up with the birds and the squirrels, watching them in their secret hide-outs, where they're totally unaware that I can see them.. If I'd been taken out into the fresh air by my maths teacher, then been allowed to watch the patterns, and he'd introduced the science of geometry through those patterns, got us to copy the shapes, explained about the angles of the branches as they bent and bowed in that breeze, maybe I'd be a Mathematician by now...but I doubt it 'cos I'll always prefer SQUIRRELS! ;0) I love painting by the way, decoratingy painting that is, and will quite happily paint for hours and hours...letting my mind drift away across a thousand oceans as I do so...Then I'll happily spend hours arranging things...getting the colours balanced right, the feeling of a room, the atmosphere of a shop.... Oh..and I quite like typing...and giggling... ;0) If I were a child today, I'd be drugged up to the eyeballs...for 'not concentrating' on a boring ol' fart of a teacher who was demanding that I learnt what THEY wanted and not what I wanted. I guess I suffered from RITM - Rebel In The Making - as a child, and I still have it today. Oh..and I found another job before I left my most current one, and it's not one that requires me to behave as if I were back at school... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Richard Bridge Date: 30 Oct 10 - 10:21 AM I believe that children should do as they are told and be seen and not heard. It worked when I was young. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: VirginiaTam Date: 30 Oct 10 - 10:14 AM I believe as do some experts that there is a link between ADHD and creativity. I also believe that children now, have little opportunity to develop creativity. Imaginative play has been replaced by television, toys and planned activities. In my childhood, we were booted out the door if there was no work for us in the house. Outside, there were other children, woods, streams, fields, ditches full of leaves, picnic tables, mud, sheds, streets with little to no traffic to play in/on/around. We played tag, army, cowboys and indians, cop and robbers. We built forts on the ground and put rope swings in trees. Pick up frisbee, dodge ball, football and baseball. We skated, rode bikes, skipped rope and did hand jive rhymes. We even built a spaceship and played Martians. We went sledding and built snow fort and snow men and snowball fights. We built damn in rain swollen streams and gutters. Do any kids do this today? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Ed T Date: 30 Oct 10 - 09:55 AM "But otherwise, her attention span was remarkable". Here is my understanding (though I suspet there arew many variations): If an ADD child is intersted in a topic or activity (and, I am saying this child was) they have a huge ability to focus. But, unfortunately most school systems require children to focus on many topics and activities, some of which they have little interest in focusing. There lies a problem for many children with ADD, as focusing on these becomes a challenge. In school systems sympathetic and structured to ADD, a child most often performs much better. But, I suspect few are so. Children with an ADD condition should not be confused as being less intelligent than other children. In many cased their intelligence level is actually higher. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: LadyJean Date: 30 Oct 10 - 01:08 AM I used to clean for a psychiatrist's family. The psychiatrist was involved in a big child behavior study at the University of Pittsburgh. You could have put a sign on their front door, "This Home Furnished by Pfizer and Eli Lily". Every piece of office equipment had some drug company's logo on it, pens, pencils, post its, briefcases, phones, clocks, note pads. One of his kids was diabetic. He got her meds as "free samples" from some nice drug salesman. His wife was a hypocondriacal bitch. He got HER meds from the same source. Then there were the conferences, in places like San Francisco and Honolulu, nice, tax deductible weekend getaways. Don't tell me all that didn't influence him. In fact you won't have to, a study has shown that those goodies do influence doctors decisions. Another story: I used to babysit a friend's daughter. She was the easiest sit in history, step 1 get a glass of water. Step 2 get the pile of story books. Step 3 with child on lap read stories. The kid was a story junky! She could listen for hours. She interrupted, now and then, to ask questions, and, once to tell me that she was going to tell the police that the mole wanted to marry Thumbellina. But otherwise, her attention span was remarkable. She was very bright, despite being the daughter of a single mom, who was not particularly well educated. The little girl spent the first half of her time in kindergarten in a science magnet program, and there were no problems. Then her mother moved to Arizona, and she went to a school where most of her classmates were learning English, and many of them didn't know the alpahbet. That was where she was diagnosed as ADD. Her mother accepted the diagnosis. (Who wants an egghead intellectual for a daughter.) It followed her on the next move to Ohio. I'm sure the kid grew up to work at WalMart or maybe as an aid in a nursing home. Though she was bright enough to go to college and make something remarkable of herself, if she had been allowed to. But, everyone knows, blue collar children aren't smart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Ed T Date: 29 Oct 10 - 08:26 PM "it stunts growth - nobody knows why, but kids on long-term Ritalin end up substantially shorter than they would otherwise". I am puzzled as to how one would know that what height a person would/could have been? With my son, he is about the average height of those in his mother/ fathers family....possibly a bit taller. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:09 PM Two side-effects of Ritalin: - it stunts growth - nobody knows why, but kids on long-term Ritalin end up substantially shorter than they would otherwise. - a lot of kids don't take it themselves and prefer to sell it on the playground drugs market. The first is not that serious - better be short than stupid - and the second is manageable with some effort, so neither is decisive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Ed T Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:52 PM My son had problems from day one at school. In elementary, I spent many after hour visits with teachers and in the principals office on his behaviour problems. One older caring teacher called me at home and suggested that she felt he had ADD, which was at the root of the problems. She indicated she had suggested a physiological assessment, but there was poor hope to get one through the school system. She suggested I push for an assessment through my physician. I did this and was successful. The condition was confirmed. He was diaginosed as having a classic ADD condition. He was put on Ritalin, and I saw immediate improvement. I struggled to understand the condition, and do anything I could to make a difference, without a drug. I was not successful. I was originally opposed to giving a child any drug. But, it worked for him and I only saw positive benefits. Did it harm him in other ways? I have not seen it, but it is possible? Doctors told me that since Ritalin is an older drug, it's applicationsshows it is safe, and much safer than most newer alternative drugs. The next year, a new teacher took a special interest in my son. He understood ADD and techniques which these children could apply, with parents help, to cope. He explained that ADD children are intelligent, but get bored very easy. Because of this, learning can be difficult. This teacher kept a watchful eye on my son in his class, as well with teachers in my sons other classes. With the kind and interested intervention of this teacher teacher, I learned about ADD and how to structure learning beyond to benefit my son. Because of this, he excelled in school, and into University, where he graduated with very high marks. He made an unsuccessful attempt to get off ritalin in high school. His marks went down significantly as his concentration clearly suffered. He then began taking them only on school days,gradually weaning himself off them on his own. He no longer takes medication. It works well for him, at this point in his life. Through studies, and on his own, he garnered a very good understanding of the ADD condition. He is now out there in the workforce, making a fine contribution to his family and society. Would I accept Ritalin again? Part of me says no (since I am generally opposed to drugs), but under the same circumstances, most likely yes. I feel for parents going through this dilema. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Emma B Date: 29 Oct 10 - 02:00 PM Here's a business opportunity for you LH from the guy who produced 'The Drugging of our Children Gary Null's home-based business opportunity is for people who: want to be role models for health and happiness for others are passionate about sharing Gary's information with their circle of friends, relatives and acquaintances are motivated to earn extra money Here's what you get: Guidance to put together starter kits with products like: Green stuff Red stuff Super Antioxidant Heavenly Aloe Friendly Fiber Muscle powder (or any of the other protein powder that Gary sells) Suprema C Plus Preferential pricing for Gary Null's signature retreats, in fact, $700/week off of the regular price to attend! All you have to do….. go to www.amazon.com and purchase the following books by Gary Null if you don't already have them: The Complete Encyclopedia of Natural Healing Get Healthy Now! Power Aging Mind Power Gary Null's Guide to a Joyful Healthy Life For Women Only! Then Order at least $700 worth of supplements to sell with your first order, and $500 for subsequent orders. Schedule your first presentation and display your products. You can also have Luanne Pennesi, RN speak at your presentations or help you with a template to get started for a nominal fee. ***PLEASE NOTE!! IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO INVEST THE $700 AND STILL WANT TO EARN $$ BY SELLING GARY'S PRODUCTS, YOU CAN BE A PART OF A DROP SHIP PROGRAM WHERE YOU CAN STILL SHOW GARY'S DVD'S AND HAVE PEOPLE PLACE ORDERS THROUGH YOU, AND YOU WILL RECEIVE A 10% COMMISSION CHECK WITH EACH ORDER, paid out quarterly What is Red Stuff? At $49.45 for 200g it consists of 'low temperature dehydrated juices' and 'offers the convenience of fresh fruit juices in a jar' and is awarded the Diabetes Resource Center's Seal of Approval The Diabetes Resource Center, Inc., referred to was at 175 5th Street in Winter Haven, Florida. According to the Florida Secretary of State's records, this entity was registered registered on 3/27/97 and underwent "administrative dissolution" on 10/16/98. The "registered agent" was Sandy D. Corlett, who has no health related credentials is identified on many Web sites as the Center's president. The database also lists a for-profit entity called DRC Publications, Inc., which Corlett registered on 8/14/95 and reported as dissolved on the same date as the Center. Seems to me that fresh fruit juice in a glass would be almost as convenient and a lot cheaper - not to mention more 'natural'! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 29 Oct 10 - 01:16 PM Once again Emma B. has brought the most useful and objective information to a thread. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Oct 10 - 12:23 PM "Natural solutions" are not always simple, and certainly aren't with this one. It's similar to obesity in that it's largely a consequence of advanced capitalist culture. Which doesn't make it easy for people to opt out of the lifestyles that keep the profit system profitable. One of the most effective ways to deal with ADHD is to restructure the child's time, so it gets more sleep and less distracting external and chemical stimuli. Now try reordering your life to cut out TV programmes the whole family has been watching for years, prevent a kid using a video console it only got upgraded last birthday, find a source of additive-free drinks at an affordable price, find a new school so the kid can walk to it, find the kid a network for new friends that don't need mobiles to keep in touch with other. Chances are you will need to do *most* of those and then some. This is far beyond what most parents of ADHD kids can manage on the resources they've got. One particularly twisted wrinkle on it: in some regions, parents can get substantial financial benefits for having an officially diagnosed ADHD child. Enough to make a real difference to the family budget. The parent can get the child stabilized by environmental and dietary interventions, then realize, shit, the money's dried up. So a couple of months later the kid is back on the diet Irn Bru and hours a day on the PSP, in between bouts of tearing the house apart and window-smashing tantrums at school. But see how the money rolls in. (Just to be clear, this is not some Daily Mail rant about "benefit scroungers", I just happen to know it happens with this condition, and where). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Emma B Date: 29 Oct 10 - 11:41 AM "One is mainstream conventional medicine and the big drug companies. The other is alternative medicine and natural cures." Too simplistic LH I believe in both 'conventional' western medicine and complimentary medicine and have benefitted from both; in fact I have had my life saved on two occasions by conventional medication and had my GP recommend an osteopath for one condition and suggest diet changes to help to deal with another. While there may be a lot of truth in Willie's observation that GPs in the UK are often under far too much pressure from patients who believe there is a golden pill for everything that ails them, medically or socially, I don't think this implies that GPs are somehow disreputably hand in glove with the pharmaceutical companies The General Medical Council specifically decrees 'If you have financial or commercial interests in organisations providing healthcare or in pharmaceutical or other biomedical companies, these interests must not affect the way you prescribe for, treat or refer patients' (The Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry's Code of Practice for the Pharmaceutical Industry, covers inducements, hospitality and other issues) Generic prescribing, for example, is one of the ways in which the NHS saves money that can be better spent elsewhere. I've nothing against using 'natural' cures for the annual miserable cold either (and do!) but I'm not sure it's the answer to agressive cancer I do have qualms however about the peddling of 'quack' cures that claim to give hope to people prepared to spend almost anything on a sick child or relative which not only have no effect but may even cause more harm There are fraudsters in any area that money can be made by fraud Health fraudsters can take advantage of the back-to-nature movement, capitalizing on the notion that there ought to be (and sometimes are) simple, natural solutions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: bankley Date: 29 Oct 10 - 11:24 AM "just a spoonful of aspertame makes the medicine go down" and that's some nasty stuff... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Oct 10 - 11:06 AM Absolutely! ;-) Let's keep the little buggers well sedated at all times. Much easier that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Amergin Date: 29 Oct 10 - 11:02 AM I think drugging the children is a very good idea....otherwise the little monsters will run wild and have minds of their own. However, I believe it should be recommended to have them drink some whiskey when they take their ritalin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:58 AM There are 2 sets of diametrically opposed viewpoints on this type of thing, both very assured of their authoritative sources and evidence, both very righteous in their accusations, both out to debunk and accuse the other, both with their esteemed practitioners and spokesmen. You can read up on both of them to bolster your chosen views, and quote them vociferously to other people. You will have a deep and abiding faith in either one of them or the other. One is mainstream conventional medicine and the big drug companies. The other is alternative medicine and natural cures. Depending on your chosen form of faith, you will usually (if not always) back one of them and damn the other. And no amount of back and forth arguing on this forum will change your opinion one iota, but it will eat up a large amount of your valuable time and possibly cause you to develop longstanding grudges against people here who think differently about it than you do. And won't that be just ducky. ;-) (rolling my eyes) That's why I figure I'll just bail out now, instead of getting involved further in the perpetual motion machine... Get medical help any way you want to, and go to whom you trust. That's what I do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:58 AM Jack, stop being silly and taking serious comments out of context to feed your weird views. Just because there are many kids that you describe, that doesn't mean that unnecessary make believe conditions aren't being "discovered" by those who just happen to have the antidote... Normal behaviour is being turned into clinical conditions. I'm not saying, just repeating it having been convinced of the argument from my lay perspective. The British Medical Journal, the New England Journal of Medicine, (I think that is what it is called, no copies lying around at present,) or Bad Science by Ben whassisname as references to dig into if you are minded. In the meantime, giving medication for things that do not need medication, never needed it and in many cases down to a spurious condition, the research for which was kick started by a drug company. All they have to do is show a result slightly better than placebo, (50/50 chance at worst) and they can market it in most countries. Those countries who refuse get their other drugs at higher prices till they back down. (The NHS Prescription Pricing Authority can write the book on that one.) Lazy prescribing by GPs who reluctantly accept that writing a prescription gets the ruddy woman and her funny looking kid (FLK) out of his consulting room quicker. (The British Medical Association, the UK doctors' trade union, used lazy prescribing of antibiotics as proof that the government want more throughput of patients. they admitted that this leads to giving the things out as it is quicker than explaining that they don't really need them!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:52 AM Oops, I seem to have completely missed the point there! We're discussing prescribed drugs not recreational drugs of course. But irrespective of that, society has changed in numerous ways which could equally account for the increases in recreational drug use. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Emma B Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:49 AM Gary Null (who produced the video 'The Drugging of Our Children') believes implicitly that physicians have an economic interest in sickness maintenance, not prevention He co-authored a series of articles on cancer research, new therapies, and political influence for Penthouse, beginning with one entitled "The Great Cancer Fraud" in which he accused the medical profession of having a "solid-gold cancer train." In 1999 Time critically wrote: "From a young reporter this is to be expected. But two decades later, Null, 54, is still warning of a variety of medical bogeymen out to gull a trusting public" NULL IS ALSO A PROMOTER OF AIDS DENIALISM, THE BELIEF THAT HIV IS HARMLESS OR DOES NOT EXIST, and is not the cause of AIDS. Null sells self-produced films on his website that promote AIDS denialism His videos have been aired by PBS during pledge drives, but concern arose within PBS over the sensational claims they contained, with Ervin Duggan, the president of PBS, expressing concern with the network "opening the door to quacks and charlatans." Null is the owner of the dietary supplement and media company Gary Null & Associates, Inc. Stephen Barrett of the alternative medicine watchdog website, Quackwatch has criticized the validity of several of his commercial products As an American talk radio host and dietician Null is of course entitled to his point of view about medical conditions and their best treatment Personally I would prefer to consider the view of Dr Billy Levin discussing ADHD "There is a world of information, written by experts that is available for the purpose of enlightening people who have an interest in this field. The amount of information is inconceivable and it is accurate and scientific. There is equally as much, if not more, mis-information that is made public. This needs to be addressed very seriously. FOR MANY REASONS IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THE MIS-INFORMATION IS MORE READILY READ THAN THE FACTS. This can only be a tragedy where patients are involved. This is not only my opinion. It can be justified with references. It would be vital for any committee sitting to deliberate about the use of Ritalin, the pros the cons, the methods of assessment and diagnosis, to obtain correct information from authoritative sources and so counter mis-use due to ignorance. This whole volatile and emotive situation about the use of Ritalin, and the diagnosis of these childrens' condition has been going on for probably the last 30 years or more without a final solution being reached. Yet throughout these years, one thing has been constant. Experts have always suggested that Ritalin is safe, effective, but needs to be used correctly for the right type of patient. Ritalin is part of the treatment. It is not "THE" treatment.. These children do need motivation especially from the parents, educational help from the teachers and they have a very important role to play in overcoming their own problems." - Ritalin, was one of the first medications introduced (amphetamines were first) to treat children with ADHD and it has been around for just about 50 years - first introduced in 1956 |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:47 AM You could draw a lot of *other* graphs depicting the dramatic ways in which society has changed since 1945 too. I'm not arguing that modern weed isn't potentially harmful (it's far stronger than it used to be, and heavy usage definitely can be harmful) but modern mental and behavioral problems in children can't all be placed at the door of recreational drug use. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:40 AM Draw a graph of illegal drug use among people age 17-40 from 1945 till now. Draw another of alcohol consumption. One for men and one for women. Draw another of marijuana consumption. Now draw a graph of 'hyperactive kids' and 'austistic children.' Then stop kidding yourselves about where these genetically damaged kids are coming from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Greg F. Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:34 AM Seems I can remember a time when we didn't giove kids penecillin- 'cause it didn't exist. Also a time we didn't give kids vaccinations for childhood diseases- because the vaccines didn't exist. I'm sure the children who died as a result were better off being dead, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:00 AM Yes, yes, and yes, Lizzie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Emma B Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:47 AM "ADHD does not exist as a real psychiatric disorder; rather, it is an unfortunate labelling of normal childhood behaviour promulgated by ineffectual parents, incompetent teachers and the pharmaceutical industry." Myth or fact? The symptoms distractibility, impulsivity, and hyperactivity are consistent with the 'normal' behaviour of many pre school children although the age range 5-7 years is usually considered the 'transition' period during which young children begin to show more "executive control", they become better at planning ahead, thinking abstractly, focusing attention, and inhibiting socially inappropriate behaviour - the sort of age in which children would be expected to adhere to the rules in games for example Where do we draw the line between developmentally normal behaviour and medical disorder? There remains a considerable controversy Concerns have been expressed about the over diagnosis of ADHD coupled with a corresponding upsurge in the prescription of stimulant medication Some of the criticism does not reject the concept of ADHD as a valid disorder, but alleges that children with problematic behaviour are often diagnosed with ADHD when the behaviour may result from other causes The symptoms of ADHD can occur with several different disorders, for example the attention span, the activity levels, and the impulsivity can also be observed in depression, psychotic disorders, and other conditions and there is also a risk of misdiagnosis However people like Sami Timimi, an NHS child and adolescent psychiatrist, attempt to explain ADHD as a social construct rather than an objective 'disorder' and opposes pathologizing the symptoms of ADHD This is not necessarily to deny a valid condition, for example obesity has different cultural constructs but yet has demonstratable adverse effects associated with it. {Remember 'willie' that even halitosis has a significant impact —personally and socially — on those who suffer from it} A minority of critics maintain that ADHD was "invented and not discovered" and insist [ADHD] is a fraud perpetrated by the psychiatric and pharmaceutical industries on families anxious to understand or explain their children's behavior The Scientology cult and other organization who regard psychiatry as hegemonic have also campaigned vigorously against diagnosis and medication while proponents of neurodiversity assert that atypical neurological development is a normal human difference that is to be tolerated and respected as any other human difference. Additionally, the drug firms financial conflict of interests in the US (Children and Adults with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, CHADD, an ADHD advocacy group based in Landover, MD received a total of $1,169,000 in 2007 from pharmaceutical companies - 26 percent of their budget) has also added to cynicism and controversy In the 1990s the United States used 90% of the stimulants produced globally! Despite such criticism, NHS guidelines consider ADHD represented a valid clinical condition with genetic, environmental, neurobiological, and demographic factors |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Oct 10 - 08:30 AM Turning normal behaviour into a clinical condition? If your idea of normal behaviour for a 10-year-old is drinking a couple of litres of diet cola a day, staying glued to the TV or a video game until the small hours, and spending every spare minute listening to MP3s on a mobile phone or compulsively texting, your sense of normality is pretty badly deficient. What to do about it is another matter. An effective and natural therapy, given a parent who thinks the above is normal, is to take the parent into a back room, shoot it, and dispose of the remains as hazardous chemical waste. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 29 Oct 10 - 08:01 AM Turning normal behaviour into a clinical condition? Methinks the thread on direct action could be relevant here. instead of rallying against the government for their policies, demonstrate against the pharmaceutical industry for making us more and more dependent on their products, usually for commercial rather than health purposes. Then, perhaps I might carry a banner with you. Look up the origins of the "condition" halitosis.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Emma B Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:30 AM The problem of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and education was discussed in The Times Educational Supplement 2 years ago when guidelines on managing such behaviour, published by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (Nice), recommend that the use of Ritalin should be reined in and that teachers could help provide alternative solutions. Fintan O'Regan, educational consultant with the national Attention Deficit Disorder Information and Support Service (Addiss) and author of several books on how to manage behaviour commented that "To get through school, you have to be able to do periods of boredom, and if you have ADHD you can't." Although advocating well trained teachers he also added that ""The third factor is being open-minded to options available, including medication." From the same article - "There is no single obvious cause. ADHD is diagnosed through behaviour, and the diagnosis need not imply a medical or neurological cause. There can also be a genetic influence. Some research links ADHD to damage to the development of the brain. There is also some link between additives and levels of hyperactivity. How many children have it? About 3 per cent of school-age children and young people in the UK How many children are prescribed drugs? It is thought as many as 55,000 have been prescribed drugs for ADHD, The National Institute of Clinical Excellence (Nice) has said the drug should not be routinely prescribed and never to under-fives. It should be reserved for the 41 per cent with severe symptoms or for those with moderate levels of impairment who have refused non-drug interventions, or whose symptoms have not responded sufficiently to other approaches. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:18 AM I didn't say that ACID was relevant to ADHD what I am saying is whatever else the kids are getting now there seems to be more youngsters effected in this way unless of course the professionals can spot problems better than they did back then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:15 AM How is acid supposed to be relevant to ADHD? (I took it a few times. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it wasn't, I don't regret it any way and I don't have ADD). Ritalin polarizes opinions more than it ought to. For some kids it may well be appropriate, at least for a while. More often it's prescribed because neither the doctor nor the parent has the guts to say NO to television, MP3 players, mobile phones and computer games. ADHD is usually just a natural response to a toxic lifestyle deranged by excessive electronics and insufficient silence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:56 AM Hello Lizzie, there were one or two in my school in the early 70s who experimented with acid but they were very few. It was usually (argueably) the more so called thinking or arty young people of the school. But the rest of us had heard so many bad stories about people jumping out of windows etc. that we just did not want to take the risk. Not only that my school had quite a bad reputation and all we wanted to do was get out of there and find a job. A friend of mine had experimented and later suffered from flashbacks and just hearing her say that kept me away from it. Funny that you come to mention it there are far more many instances of mental illnesses in the young generation now than ever before and far more cases of young people having to be sectioned and put into the high-dependency units. I wonder why too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Acorn4 Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:24 AM They didn't drug kids in our day, but a whole generation of middle aged people became hooked on vallium I'm with you 100% on drug companies. |
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Subject: BS: The Drugging of our Children From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 29 Oct 10 - 04:25 AM "I don't remember anyone I went to school with being on a mind-altering medication, but now the number of children on drugs in this country is astronomical..." - taken from Part 1 of the film below. The Drugging of our Children - Parts 1 - 13 I don't remember anyone being on medication either, and I went to the roughest school in my neighbourhood... 'Ritalin Grin' - Youtube So, are the drug companies pushing their drugs on to children because, hell, if you get 'em hooked early on, then you have them....for LIFE! ? NEVER has this happened before...It's a huge problem in the US and now it's over here in the UK... "Why didn't my generation, the baby-boomer generation have this? Why didn't we have thousands of kids committing suicide when I was going to school, or when you were going to school......shooting up their class mates for no apparent reason?" (again, taken from the film above) And listen to the Mum who talks of her little boy being reported to her in KINDERGARTEN (!!!) for not sitting on his chair, not focussing...?????? If you made your own child sit on a chair for HOURS in your house and study, study, study, do you think they'd be happy? Do you think they'd sit there? Do you think they'd learn? Do you think...they might start to resent you, after day, after day, after day of being made to do exactly the same thing, year after year..... From The New Generation of Educational Thought... 'He's fidgeting!' 'Oh my GOD!! DRUG HIM!!! This is a shocking, but highly informative film...and every parent and teacher should watch it. |
