Info Req: When You and I Were Young, Maggie

Subject: Maggie
From:
Date: 28 Aug 99 - 10:26 PM

Re: When You and I Were Young, Maggie Information on the location of the "old rusty mill", is sought; also the nationality of the two authors cited, George W. Johnson and James Austin Butterfield, where they lived and when.

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Aug 99 - 10:49 PM

I always thought this was a "nice old tune" until I heard Sandy Paton sing this after saying that it was a great love song. If you haven't heard Sandy on the "Golden Ring Reunion" album on his Folk Legacy label, you have not "heard" the song. Sincerity is such an integral part of ballad delivery..........Order this one folks....the whole album is excellent.

I'm sure Sandy will be along with some historical info on this.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: bob schwarer
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 07:05 AM

They were Canadian. I looked the story up at the library several years back & found an article that covered the story quite well. Hope it was accurate.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Lesley N.
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 08:53 AM

It is also the true story of Maggie Clark (of Canada) whose school teacher, George Johnson, fell in love with her. They were married in 1865 but she died that same year.

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Stoney
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 08:59 AM

The writer of the song was a Yankee school teacher teaching at a school just south of Hamilton Ont. He fell in love with one of his students - Maggie Johnson. I believe that her father owned the mill referred to in the song.During the civil war he returned to the states to fight for the north. Upon his return to Canada he learned of the death of his sweetheart. Subsequently he returned to America where he wrote the song.

She is buried in a cemetary near Mount Hope. Back in the sixties her gravestone went missing. It is generally suspected that "Americans" had stolen it.

I taught for many years in the same school district and the old timers always delighted in telling this story.

Kind regards, Neil Stoneman

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 07:35 PM

BTW...If the folk fogey notices this thread, I always mean to ask him about the line he uses instead of the traditional, "The creek and the rusty old mill." Sandy substitutes "creaking old mill" and the line has a nice flow that way..........What's the deal Mr Paton?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 08:15 PM

G'day,
I always thought it was "creaking old mill". It has been recorded that way more than once. Sandy, did you originate this improvement? It's a good one.

Just to be a bit picky, the line above about George Johnson returning to America from Canada seems odd to this Aussie. Rather like returning to Europe from Spain or to Australia from Queensland. (Although come to think... the latter does make sense..... sorry John, sorry Ted.)

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 08:36 PM

Yeah that's exactly right Alan.......Where is the old poop anyway? C'mon Sandy, we need some details here!!!

Soaw

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 08:49 PM

Although I have always liked the tune, I had never really looked at the words until reading this thread.

I reckon that I must be a sentimetal fool (and probably shouldn't admit to this anyway) but it has literaly had me in tears for the last half hour.

Jon

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: gorgan_zola
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 09:53 PM

You aren't the only sentimental fool. Count me as one of them.

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 10:04 PM

Face it, we're all a bunch of Softies, that's why we're so loverly, too!*g*

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 10:12 PM

And I'm another! When I recorded it, I was embarrassed by the tears that I couldn't hide from the folks who were singing the chorus with me.

I didn't come in on this one right away because I couldn't find the book in which I read of the Canadian connection and I wasn't sure I remembered the story correctly. I'm glad that all you good folk have filled in for me!

Checking my text with that published in Heart Songs, I see that I've made only one change: I sing "The green grass is gone from the hill, Maggie," while the text there reads "green grove." The "creeking old mill" is as it was printed there, not my doing. It does tell us that it was first published in 1867.

I'll add one more bit: the song, with almost no alteration in the text, was included by Ord in his Bothy Ballads, a splendid collection of songs that were popular in the Scottish farmhands' equivalent of our American "bunkhouses." So, clearly, it became widely known early on.

The text often sung now by young Irish singers is a re-write from a popular Irish play (Sean O'Casey?) in which the wife asks her husband for a song and he offers "Maggie." "No, that's too sad," she says, so he makes up some new words for it. One of our great Irish Mudcatters can surely tell us in which play that scene occurs. I've forgotten, dammit! It's a good re-write, but I like the original even better.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Les B
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 10:17 PM

I've been singing this song recently as part of Civil War era songs, and would really like to know how Sandy incorporates the "creaking old mill" line. It makes more sense, but seems to drop too many words to scan/parse correctly. I had heard that the writer was the teacher of the girl, but didn't know he had returned to fight in the war. Also, I understood that he wrote it as a poem, and it was only later that a third party (name?) added the very effective tune.

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 10:18 PM

In the above, please read "creaking" for "creeking." I'm still in the running for "world's worst proof-reader!"

Fogey

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Les B
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 10:20 PM

How amazing! he (Sandy) got in while I was pumping the keys.!!

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 10:21 PM

Hi Group........I sent Sandy a note about this thread and he replied back with some info, but couldn't find something he had that was relevant. Summer is their busiest time and he's doing some production work, which is of course why he's been so scarce. I've got some good leads now and I think I'll do some checking. You know, sometimes we rely so much on the great knowledge of 'Catters like Sandy that we get a little (in my case a lot) lazy.......Looks like I've got an early New Year's Resolution.

AND TO JON and GORGZO: Join the club. Welcome aboard. I still can't get through this thing. I remember it from my Mom and Dad and singing along, but the true meaning never hit me. Awhile back, we ran a thread on "Favorite Love Songs" and Sandy said this one was his. I thought, "Gee, that's nice.....Never thought about it like that." Then I got to going over the words again and DAMN........same reaction you all had......Cryin' every time and I'll be damned if I can even sing it now! Great old song.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 10:29 PM

Yeah, a whole bunch of sudden jump-ins here....See if I apologize for the old fart again!!!(:+}

Gawd, doncha' just love this place???

He's probably already posted this, but the line is:

"The creek and the creaking old Mill"....Same number of syllables and far more lyrical.....we oughta' change this or add it in the DT too as it uses "rusty."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 10:38 PM

Even forgetful old-fart fogeys can have fast fingers, folks!

Sandy (busy, but still a Mudcat addict!)

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Les B
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 10:46 PM

OK - I see the light - that works! I thought the 1st creek reference was dropped and the line condensed. As I know the 1st verse it's "I wandered today to the hill, Maggie, to survey the scene below. The creek and the old rusty mill, Maggie, where we sat in the long, long ago..." I've always had a bit of difficulty visualizing them sitting in the creek, but it's still a real crowd pleaser.

There's also a parody of the song from Butte (Montana) miners, which starts out "I wandered today to the hill, Maggie, to get me a rustling card - I got both the card and the job, Maggie, but the work it was too damn hard..."

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 10:58 PM

Well the song may make me cry, but I'm getting a lotta' laughs out of this thread!

Les, I've always sung and heard "watch" the scene below. "Survey" sounds kinda' like you're there for a land grab rather than a remembering.........just a thought.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Saucy
Date: 29 Aug 99 - 11:23 PM

Ive heard Danny Doyle on a video sing it but don't remember what lyrics he used. My daughter & I are going to visit friends in Ala. that have the video over Labour Day weekend. So we'll view it again & let you know what lyrics he sings.

Subject: RE: Maggie
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 99 - 07:48 AM

I've heard Maura O'Connell do this song, same melody but different words. Her words are the ones I gave Dick for the DT (under "Maggie"), but I wonder if those are the re-write Sandy talked about. They seem to be just as sad!
We do this song with the O'Connell lyrics in 3/4 time, but we often hear it in bluegrass circles in 4/4 with the original lyrics.