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BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 24 Dec 10 - 06:11 PM Think youself lucky; I have to wrap a tricycle.. The molesters will have to wait:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Dec 10 - 05:53 PM Well, Smokey, the document is from 1962, and it sounds like 1962 - another world, another time. I'm surprised that they actually had a policy back then. I admit it was too much for me to read, so I just skimmed through it. I thought the Child molesters are likeable article that EdT linked to, was very good. Merry Christmas! -Joe, more interested in music just now- We're singing tonight, and there are a couple songs giving me trouble |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 24 Dec 10 - 05:44 PM Any thoughts on 'Criminales Solicitaciones', Joe? Merry Christmas to all, regardless of grumptious bantering. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Dec 10 - 08:06 PM That's a real problem, Ed. I've interviewed a few child molesters after they've been released from prison and started a new life. They quickly re-establish themselves and, as you say, become pillars of the community. They are very charming and convincing. It's hard to disbelieve their sincerity. You'd never dream that they would ever molest children again. But they do. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:56 PM It's here Joe. From my post of 21 Dec 10 - 02:40 PM. It's a scan of the original, as you'll see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:16 PM "You'd like the molesters: Many of the offenders (child sex abusers) are described as "pillars of the community"; some won "citizen of the year" awards in their towns. While a socially awkward stranger-kidnapper occasionally makes big news, what's more typical are these men, many of whom are regular guests in the homes of families whose children they molested". Most child molesters are likable |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:38 PM Smokey, I can't find the 1962 document you speak of. I searched this page for 1962, and didn't find the reference. Can you lead me to it? And still, I insist, the story hasn't been told in a way that makes sense to me. I live near Auburn, California, about 50 miles northeast of where I used to live in Sacramento. Auburn is the site of the motherhouse of a province of the Sisters of Mercy. The sisters came here from Ireland 150 years ago, mostly to serve Irish Catholics who had come to the Sacramento area during the Gold Rush. A steady flow of young Irish women came to the Auburn convent until the mid-1970s, and the convent also recruited a reasonable percentage of American young women. The Irish women came in their late teens, with the understanding that they would never go home again. In the 1970's, Irish priests in Sacramento collected money so that the Irish nuns could visit their families in Ireland occasionally. I'm an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy, and I have come to know a number of these Irish-born nuns quite well. I used to think of them as sweet little old ladies, but I've found that a number of them are brilliant women, full of passion and courage and wisdom. One of these Mercy nuns was recently excommunicated by the Bishop of Tucson for authorizing an abortion for a woman who was in danger of death. As one might suspect, the nuns don't have much good to say about the bishop. But I've asked a number of these nuns what it was like to grow up Catholic in Ireland, and it was a good experience for all of the women I asked. When I moved to Sacramento in 1980, I was amazed to find that almost all of the priests in the Sacramento Diocese had been born in Ireland - the "FBI" is what they were called (Foreign-Born Irish). In time, I grew to like these Irish priests, because most of them are pretty good people. Many of them tend toward alcoholism, and they can tend to be short-tempered; but most of them are good-hearted and generous to a fault. Again, I've asked many of them what it was like to grow up Catholic in Ireland, and it was a good experience for every one of them. One of them, who grew up in a poor family in a rural area not far from Limerick, told me, "That Frank McCourt had a reputation as a whiner" (McCourt wrote Angela's Ashes, about growing up in Limerick. McCourt's brothers did not describe their youth in such depressing terms). I may well know more Irish-born priests and nuns, than many people who are living in Ireland know. And while I have a very good impression of most of them, I also must say that a number of the worst child-molesting priests in the U.S. were born in Ireland. One of the most notorious US child molesters was Oliver Francis O'Grady, an Irish-born priest of the diocese of Stockton, California. http://bishop-accountability.org summarizes his history:
I've found one book that gives an excellent insight into the child molestation problem in the Catholic Church in the U.S. It's called Priestly Sins, a novel written by Fr. Andrew Greeley of Chicago. The main character is a young priest who learns that a fellow priest has been raping young boys. The whistleblower goes through hell in his quest to expose the crime, and wins out in the end. I know a priest who was a whistleblower. He uncovered a pastor who was using parish funds to pay for a home for himself and a male lover; and two younger priests in the same parish were having an affair. He was away from the priesthood for ten years, because his bishop wouldn't give him an assignment. He appealed to the Vatican and won, and was assigned to a neighboring diocese, Sacramento. This priest is a brilliant and talented man and has a lot of people who think he's wonderful, but other people hate him. I think that often he's a pain in the ass, and I've noticed that whistleblowers are often a pain in the ass. I think it often takes that kind of personality to buck the system and speak out for what's right. I've often found that whistleblowers have tunnel vision, and have trouble seeing the full picture. I'd also say that whistleblowers can be deeply flawed personalities, and can often be problem employees themselves. Women love this whistleblower priest that I know, and he loves women - a bit too much, for my liking. When he greets a woman he likes, he engages in what somebody told me was a "full-body kiss." I've sometimes said to myself, "It he feels my wife up like that again, I'm going to punch him out." But I don't, because he's twice my size and all muscle - and thankfully, he's no longer in this area. And still I say, the story hasn't been told in a way that makes sense to me - especially the story of how this scandal has played out in Ireland. I don't deny any of it - the horror of the rape of children by dozens of priests, the beatings and other humiliations suffered by hundreds (maybe thousands) of children in state-owned schools run by nuns and brothers, the coverups by bishops and priests at the highest level of authority in the Catholic Church in Ireland and Rome. It's all true - I don't deny it. On the other hand, I have Irish priests and nuns who have told me stories of the sweetness of growing up in Catholic families and Catholic parishes in Ireland, so I know it could not have been all bad. While there is much to be deplored, there is still a history of deep spirituality, boundless generosity, and stunning intellectual achievements in the Catholic Church in Ireland. How do we balance the bad with the good and come up with the truth? So, as I say, the story is yet to be told. It won't be told by the newspapers or by television. It will take a far deeper study to come to the truth. I'd recommend Greeley's Priestly Sins. It's a good start of telling the tale of the priest child molestation scandal in the U.S. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:08 PM You can assume that all of these church officials are bad, bad people and they need to be punished to scare people into not doing this in the future No-one assumes that, Joe. The guilty need to be separated from the innocent, then the guilty need to be punished, not only to deter others, but also for the sake of the victims and to protect the public. This would do both the Church itself and its more innocent members a big favour in terms of credibility. Justice must be seen to be done, and if the Church has any sense or conscience, it should be seen to do everything possible to support that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:36 PM These bishops knew of crimes committed by men placed in authority by themselves, and instead of instantly reporting said crimes and allowing the proper authorities to do their job, they elected to cover them up. They were ordered to 'from above', and faced excommunication if they didn't. Not that that is really any excuse. The 1962 document I linked to above is proof of this, and of the church's complicity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:24 AM ""How would YOU handle a child who came to you about a situation like this? How would YOU respond if you were accused of failing to handle the child's complaint effectively? Can you or I honestly say we would have done better?"" Here's the bottom line Joe, and you just gave the answer. Yes, I can honestly say I would have done better,...much better! I would have followed your advice, and handed the investigation of the complaint over to the authorities who have the requisite investigative skills. I would have called the police! I would not under any circumstances have placed the good name of my organisation above the welfare of a possibly abused child, and in this way I would have been preserving that good name by upholding its highest moral values. You can't have it both ways Joe. These bishops knew of crimes committed by men placed in authority by themselves, and instead of instantly reporting said crimes and allowing the proper authorities to do their job, they elected to cover them up. The proper focus of the Church is the care of mankind's souls. Other agencies exist to handle their bodies. How can the Church pretend to those highest moral values if its representatives become accessories to abuse, and are given a "get out of jail free" card which is not available to the rest of the community? Don T. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:49 AM Ah, Peter, it's not wise to stop asking questions. If you don't ask the questions, you don't learn the answers. I did not place any blame on anyone for not reporting the crimes - I just wanted to know why they were not reported, what conditions made it difficult for the crimes to be reported. You gave a pretty good answer, but I had to ask the question several times before I got an answer that began to satisfy me. And still, I think there's more of an answer to be had. I am imagining that many a good parish priest did listen, and did try to do the right thing - only to have the matter hushed up at a higher level. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:40 AM Stop asking the question why the victims didn't report the abuse, as if they were at fault. It doesn't seem hard to grasp that rural and working class children and their parents didn't get their concerns considered credible, or considered at all. I am still not sure at all you fully grasp the might of the church in Ireland that lasted well into the nineties (and one can wonder to what extend it has gone away). Why didn't people come forward? Because they were threatened with eternal damnation and suffering in the fires of hell? Because the guards wouldn't go against the church? Because the victims were ostracised when they tried to speak out? I remember well the furore when Annie Murphy spoke publicly about her son, fathered by Bishop Eamonn Casey (and supported by church funds). 'That woman' had dared to speak out and ruin a good man. That was the atmosphere. As the song has it 'sure god love them, they're only human'. And that wasn't by far as difficult a matter as an abuse case would have been at the time (early nineties). Other cases. Like the Brendan Smyth one? The industrial schools? Aren't the patterns of cover up and evasion we've seen there well enough established to warrant the questions asked about the complicity of Hierarchy, and asked again with regards to the Walsh case? These questions should be asked again and again, certainly as long as the Vatican considers it an insult when they are asked at all. I believe and agree with you there was an element of inexperience, incomprehension and pure dumb inability to deal with these matters at the time. But only an element, and only up to a point. Cover up and damage limitation to the extend they occurred are unforgivable and deserves further scrutiny. And those responsible for the cover ups should be held accountable. First of all to do right by the victims to allow them justice and vindicate them for their suffering and secondly to avoid this shielding of crimes and protection of evil doers to re-occur. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:36 AM ""Oh, I'm quite aware that many victims don't report crimes against children. But if it was reported to the church, why not to the police?"" Because they were too scared of the church to demur when told "Don't tell anyone else. Leave it to us. We'll deal with it". Joe, In the USA you may never have experienced what is meant in Ireland by the phrase "Fear of God". It was very real, and it extended to an equally real fear of the priests. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:28 AM ""We must ask ourselves what we can do to repair as much as possible the injustice that has occurred."" Is he for real? Does he actually believe it is possible to repair not only the abuse, but the betrayal by those who wantonly failed to take the proper action. As to the reactions of parents, in Ireland at least the parish priest was the voice of God, and parishioners had been brainwashed from early childhood to believe every word he uttered. Of course they found it difficult to believe any child who accused him. According to all they had been taught, he was incorruptible. There were in the past two authority figures in every community with whom one did not argue, the priest and the doctor, and there is an old gag about how strong that feeling was. It seems there was an old couple and one day the wife called the doctor to come and examine her husband who had collapsed. When he arrived the old boy was stretched out on the floor, stiff as a board. The doc examined him, and told the wife "I'm sorry my dear, but your husband is dead. The "body" suddenly twitched and sat up, and the old boy said I'm not dead". The wife turned on him and said "Lie down George, doctor knows best". It was certain that an accusation of abuse would be disbelieved by a massive majority of parishioners, and believe me, you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the righteous wrath of a bunch of Irish Catholics when you accuse their priest. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Dec 10 - 04:50 AM Stop what, Peter? Stop seeking the truth? How can we ascertain the truth if we don't ask questions? You're speaking of one case, Peter, the case of the most notorious offender in Ireland. Walsh admitted what he did, was sent for treatment, and was declared cured by a medical expert (with some reservations). He offended again, and was removed from ministry in 1990, prosecuted in 1995 and convicted and sent to prison in 1996. It took a long time, but in Walsh's case, something was done - and there were actions taken in his case from the very beginning. Not criminal prosecution, but intense residential psychiatric treatment. But Walsh's case was not typical. It was one of the first to be prosecuted; so it's likely that many of those who came in contact with the case, did not know what they were doing. But what about other cases? It's easy to assume the answers, but what really are the answers? There's no doubt that the church officials failed miserably in dealing with these crimes, but was their failure due to callousness or to lack of expertise? How would YOU handle a child who came to you about a situation like this? How would YOU respond if you were accused of failing to handle the child's complaint effectively? Can you or I honestly say we would have done better? You can assume that all of these church officials are bad, bad people and they need to be punished to scare people into not doing this in the future, but is that really the case? I think we're a long way from good answers to this problem, and we need to keep asking questions until things start making sense. Assuming the answers isn't good enough. Getting your answers from newspaper articles isn't good enough, either. Too many details are missing from the news accounts, and too often the reporters add "spin" to the article - as evidenced by the differences between the Guardian summary and the Pope's actual remarks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 23 Dec 10 - 04:33 AM Stop that Joe. Walsh fully admitted what he was doing when asked by the early eighties. The other priests and the hierarchy knew. In detail. Yet in 1991 when Willie Walsh suggested to the college of bishops that it was time the guards had a go at stopping Walsh he was rebuffed for his 'outrageous suggestion'. That's matter of record. Don't put the responsibility for reporting and consequent action at the victims' doorsteps. The train passed that station long ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Dec 10 - 03:52 AM Oh, I'm quite aware that many victims don't report crimes against children. But if it was reported to the church, why not to the police? And if the victim was an adult or accompanied by an adult at the time of the report, I would think it even more likely that they would report to the police. All of the known cases in my diocese of Sacramento were reported to the police and most resulted in convictions, but I don't know whether it was the victims or the diocese who reported the problem. I suspect that the offenses may not have been reported to the church officials in a way that was credible. It takes a trained and perceptive interviewer to get the facts of a child molestation offense. Still, with abusers with multiple victims, it seems that the problem should have come to the attention of the police more often. Perhaps the Irish police does not have officers that specialize in crimes against children. Not having such officers would be unthinkable in urban police departments in the U.S. When I came across allegations of child abuse or molestation in security clearance investigations, I relied chiefly on police and court records, and on the testimony of adult sources. There was a time or two when a supervisor suggested that I should interview a victim who was still a minor, and I refused. I saw no value in putting a child through that for a pre-employment or security investigation, although it would most probably be necessary in a criminal investigation. In cases that I investigated, the evidence for the criminal cases was gathered by law enforcement officers with extensive training in crimes against children. I realize that many of you have your minds made up about all this, but I'm not so sure. It's easy to assume that the church officials were merely callous and evil and protective of their power structure, but was that really the case? My experience is most people (even priests) really would like to the right thing; but that failures like this are more likely to have been caused by people not knowing how to handle the situation - that's why police departments have specialists handle this sort of crime. It's too easy for an untrained interviewer to scare the victim away. We had one investigator who thought he was the best there was, but we constantly got complaints whenever he had to investigate problems of a sexual nature. He just didn't know how to do it in a way that didn't scare witnesses. He didn't intend to scare the witnesses - he just did. I'm sure a celibate, childless priest would not be the best kind of person to elicit sensitive and embarrassing information from a child. In his message above, Ed T posted a number of Pope Benedict quotes from an address I had linked to. Ed, I think the Pope "gets it" now, and he's sincere in his comments. He really has no reason to dissemble any more. There's nothing more to hide. It's in his best interest to get it all out in the open and get it over and done with. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 23 Dec 10 - 03:29 AM We should really thank organisations like 'Childline' for enabling children to confide their problems and councellors who are there to encourage children to talk about what has happened to them in strict confidentiality. When I was young there was no such thing and it was very much the child's word against the adult, if the child was brave enough to speak up about it in the first place. Most children then were either acused of lying or of having an over vivid imagination or blackmailed into keeping quiet about it and often having the blame reversed on to them. The culture now is it is alright for children or abused women to speak up against anything inappropriate and probably has to do with why so much is coming to light now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:10 AM The first time a case of Walsh's abuse was reported to Gardaí they started an inquiry and asked the church, in the person Mgr Stenson, if there had been any history of problems with his behaviour. This has been mentioned several times Joe. Stenson 'evaded' the issue and the inquiry was dropped. Culture of silence, evasion and cover up. Another case was mentioned in articles linked in this thread where Gardaí didn't act after complaints were made. Gardaí should bear some of the blame for ignoring signs. The word from the church carried more weight with them than that of working class Dubliners from Ballyfermot. Why didn't victims didn't go to the police? Do you really have to ask that question Joe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:26 PM "The majority of children will not admit to the abuse even if they are asked. For various reasons children do not report the abuse and sexual abuse is not always obvious. There are warning signs of sexual abuse or behavioral signs that indicate abuse has occurred. Many times very young victims do not understand that they are being abused. They may understand later, but at the time they have no knowledge that the abuse is wrong. The statistics on victims reporting are shocking. More than thirty percent of victims will never tell anyone that they were ever abused. About eighty percent will deny the abuse when first asked or are afraid to admit it. Seventy-five percent of victims that tell often do by accident; it just blurts out. More than twenty percent will recant their story even when abuse has occurred. Many say that children lie about the abuse. Young children have nothing to reference to when discussing sexual activity unless they have experienced it. Sexual abuse reports that were fabricated account for only one to four percent of all the reported cases. Adults file seventy-five percent of these false reports. Fabricated stories by children occur about one-half percent of the time". http://childsafetips.abouttips.com/children-dont-report-sexual-abuse.php |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:21 PM There is also the threat of violent abuse to consider too. I doubt those kids were ever even aware of the option of complaining to someone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: katlaughing Date: 22 Dec 10 - 09:27 PM ...why didn't victims report the crimes to police themselves? If I were victim of a crime, that's the first place I'd go. Joe, I feel real surprise that you seem to be so disconnected. I know you've worked with abused women. Do you know how many times a woman might NOT call/go to the cops because of the threats she's heard, to herself and her children, if she DOES go to the cops? Can you not imagine how it would be for a young child who has been taught to look up to a person of authority who then abuses them, THEN threatens them with damnation, etc. IF they tell anyone about what was done?? Do you have any idea of the pervasive culture of the RCC in Ireland and other countries? Have you read Angela's Ashes? If you doubt anything of the power he tells about of the RCC in their lives, we have a Mudcatter who lived just around the corner and can you all about why someone would not go to the cops. I am surprised that you seem so naive, Joe, or, in complete denial. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Jack Campin Date: 22 Dec 10 - 08:40 PM why didn't victims report the crimes to police themselves? If I were victim of a crime, that's the first place I'd go. I made the mistake of trying to get help from the Gardai when I got robbed in Dublin. If they couldn't be arsed trying to deal with a gang of teenage thugs after a complaint from an articulate middle-aged academic, why on earth would you expect them to take on a rapist priest when the complainant is a probably-incoherent working-class kid? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,mg Date: 22 Dec 10 - 08:19 PM Are there cults within the Vatican that practice this? I truly and honestly can not understand the motivation to cover up at the highest levels. This is more than the lonely priests of Ireland suffering from too much celibacy. There is something else. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,mg Date: 22 Dec 10 - 08:13 PM if you were an 10 year old altar boy? mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:50 PM Fine words. Someone should ask him why he covered it up for so many years when it was his job to know all about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:30 PM If you are seeking "guidance" from the Pope on priest sexual abuse, here are some interesting pieces from his speech...taken directly from what was posted by Joe O. "under the mantle of the sacred profoundly wound human persons in their childhood, damaging them for a whole lifetime". "We must accept this humiliation as an exhortation to truth and a call to renewal. Only the truth saves. We must ask ourselves what we can do to repair as much as possible the injustice that has occurred. We must ask ourselves what was wrong in our proclamation, in our whole way of living the Christian life, to allow such a thing to happen. We must discover a new resoluteness in faith and in doing good. We must be capable of doing penance. We must be determined to make every possible effort in priestly formation to prevent anything of the kind from happening again. This is also the moment to offer heartfelt thanks to all those who work to help victims and to restore their trust in the Church, their capacity to believe her message. In my meetings with victims of this sin, I have also always found people who, with great dedication, stand alongside those who suffer and have been damaged. We are well aware of the particular gravity of this sin committed by priests and of our corresponding responsibility". |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:28 PM Read this short report. If you have an interest in answering some of the odd questions posed at this late point,(and I am not sure everyone wants to know). It gives a picture of the circumstances in a "culture of silence" that some of these "young" boys faced. I suspect you will find some of the answers as to why children did not report incidents, as were ignored or punished when they did. Physical and Child Sexual Clergy Abuse in Ireland Inquiry |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:02 PM That's a big question I have - why didn't victims report the crimes to police themselves? If I were victim of a crime, that's the first place I'd go. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:52 PM Not in these cases. It's pretty easy to prove that someone didn't report a crime, and in many cases it's already known that they knew about it. There are probably also cases where it was reported to the police by victims and they did nothing. That obviously presents a more difficult situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:46 PM Au contraire! Proving what somebody didn't do? Well-nigh impossible! -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:03 PM after 15 years, it's a question of who said what when - and how do you prove that after 15 years? It's more a question of what they didn't do, which is considerably easier to prove. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 05:59 PM Joe, the evidence has to be actively sought before it can be found; that's the nature of a cover-up. People have to be hauled in and interrogated. Of course it's difficult - they're covering it up. There's nothing abstract about it though, we are talking about real crimes with a great many suspects, many of whom are on record as having known about the abuse and failing to report it to the authorities. There is no excuse, and the church should bear the cost of investigation. Do you not have anything to say about the deterrent aspect of punishment for these crimes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 05:21 PM They don't just grow on trees, 9. At the moment I'm so poor I can barely afford punctuation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,999--apologies, that was me. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:45 PM `Personally, I'm more in favour of a longer sentence.` Ya gotta use more adjectives and adverbs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Penny S. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:22 PM Joe, thank you for posting the link to the Pope's speech. It does help to read the original - I was interested to see how he used a vision of Hildegard of Bingen. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:22 PM A hypothetical situation? What have individuals done? I don't believe I'm reading this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:18 PM A cop out? C'mon, Ed - all I'm asking for, is to take the discussion from the abstract to the concrete. It doesn't do a lot of good to get steamed up about a hypothetical situation. What have individuals done, and what proof of criminal conduct is there that will hold up in court? Also, what is the Statute of Limitations on such a crime in Ireland? My experience as an investigator tells me that getting a conviction for a 15-yr-old coverup would be well-nigh impossible. I'm talking practical here, not whether it's right or wrong. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,mg Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:59 PM I am not necessarily seeking criminal convictions. I am seeking an outing of the coveruppers and an outcry from the faithful that this (coverups, entrenched abuse) is unsufferable. I want independent journalists and law enforcement to do what they must do and that they would do if a regular citizen did certain things..the journalists certainly have gone above and beyond in many situations to inform us and remove the cataracts from our eyes. I want the trails to lead where they may. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:30 PM "As for the criminal charges of coverups, give us a few names and tell us specifically what these people did - and tell us what function these people are serving in the Catholic Church now. Otherwise, we're just arguing in the abstract. If it can be shown that an individual committed a crime, even 15 years ago, then it's up to the courts to decide." Now that's a cop out. Joe O is starting to put forward a Steve Shaw type arguments..."show me the evidence, or there is no God". LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Dec 10 - 12:54 PM Yes, somebody will be able to make a "show case" out of one or two incidents and maybe get a conviction against somebody for this coverup; but after 15 years, it's a question of who said what when - and how do you prove that after 15 years? It ends up being a witch hunt. Now, I haven't heard anything about victims in Ireland claiming damages against the Catholic Church. Can it be that all people are seeking is criminal convictions? As for the criminal charges of coverups, give us a few names and tell us specifically what these people did - and tell us what function these people are serving in the Catholic Church now. Otherwise, we're just arguing in the abstract. If it can be shown that an individual committed a crime, even 15 years ago, then it's up to the courts to decide. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:12 AM Punishment is not a very effective deterrent if it is not carried out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:48 AM Smokey, proving a 15-yr-old case of child molestation is different from proving a 15-yr-old cover-up. Contrary to most crimes, the victims of child molestation are more credible witnesses years after the crime, after they have become adults. Unfortunately, that makes it possible for the molester to continue undetected for a long time. I know that, Joe - what's your point? If it can be shown that someone committed an offence or had knowledge of such and did not report it to the police, they should face the consequences regardless of when the offence took place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:05 AM ""Smokey, proving a 15-yr-old case of child molestation is different from proving a 15-yr-old cover-up. Contrary to most crimes, the victims of child molestation are more credible witnesses years after the crime, after they have become adults. Unfortunately, that makes it possible for the molester to continue undetected for a long time."" So, when finally the victims are far enough removed from the horror they have suffered to talk about it they should be told "It's too late, you'll just have to live with the knowledge that the people who caused this harm, by commission or omission, got away with it, while you will live with the consequences for the rest of your life". D'you want the job of explaining that to them Joe? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:30 AM "If a person committed a crime 15 years ago and didn't get caught, I suppose that's his good luck. If he hasn't committed any other crimes in the last 15 years, then I don't see a lot of harm done by his getting away." That statement indicates a disregard for (is insulting to, and belittles) victims of the crimes of those in a position of authority. Unfortunately, many otherwise caring RCs have shown disregard, even contempt for the many victims.... some who have come forward, and some who have not (and, don't fool oneself, they do exist). Personally, after all that has come forward, I find this attitude mind-boggling. Though, I suspect it is "somewhat representative" of thinking within "the organization". Most sex offenders offend again, unless caught. They just get better at hiding it. If this organization has not fixed what is wrong, it will likely occur again, and again go undetected by the organization, and enablers. It is not reasonable to put "hope" in the other direction. It's may be like a mother who never sees her child (who becomes an adult) doing wrong, even it is crystal clear to others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:17 AM Does first-hand testimony from the victims count? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: saulgoldie Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:21 AM I came in to this thread late, and I am too slow a reader to go over all the posts just now (when I am getting ready to go to work). So forgive me if this has already been said. But... Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. And we are all G-d's children. And though this person is accused of what I consider the most vile of crimes short of murder, we must remember this. Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:10 AM Throughout this and other threads discuussing child abuse, there has been a persistant and somewhat cynical attempt to shift the focus of attention on to the abusers, who now appear to be being presented as old man beyond the reach of the law, and away from the past and present responsibility of the church in facilitating the abuses and allowing them to take place for as long as they did and to the extent that they did. This letter from this morning's Irish Times sums up what has happened, and what should have happened. I would be interested in a response. Jim Carroll WALSH ABUSE AND COVER-UP Madam, - As a person brought up in the Roman Catholic faith and who served as an altar boy, I have very grave reservations at why it took the archdiocese of Dublin 17 years to report Tony Walsh to the civil police authorities. For a priest like Tony Walsh to have been able to abuse children on a scale similar to Brendan Smyth is deeply distressing. We will perhaps never know the number of children's lives that this man ruined and sent to their graves. His abuse of hundreds of children, and the deep pain and emotion these innocent victims could no longer cope with, ultimately led to many committing suicide. The whole church system of dealing with child sex abusers seems to protect the abuser and not the victim. Canon law and the procedures the Catholic Church in Ireland operates under are still today the biggest part of the problem. In 2010 there is a Cardinal and Primate of All Ireland living in an ivory tower in Armagh and also a number of bishops - present and emeritus - across Ireland who still live in denial and who do not fully comprehend the enormity and scale of the child abuse that occurred in virtually every diocese, including my own of Down and Connor. These clerics are obviously living in a world totally apart from the victims who were abused by servants of the church and God. Now the Stormont Executive has announced an inquiry into historical institutional child abuse in the North (Home News, December 18th). If this inquiry is ever to have any lasting and permanent credibility then it should fully extend its remit not only to the church institutions but to all cases of child abuse in every diocese in the North. The cost should not matter, and the Stormont Executive should fully ensure that canon law, the Irish Catholic Church, and Rome do not prevent or delay the conduct of a full investigative inquiry. Furthermore the victims should be the primary architects of this inquiry, and request that the Irish Catholic Church fully co-operate to the inquiry's requests for information. The Stormont Executive should also ensure that if the Irish Catholic Church does not assist, that court and police authorities can intervene. To the deceased and living victims of child clerical abuse in Ireland we can only pray and hope that one day the Irish Catholic Church will finally accept that they have been the core crux of the problem. Yours etc John Hoare Carrigard,. Dundrum. Co Down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Dec 10 - 02:09 AM Smokey, proving a 15-yr-old case of child molestation is different from proving a 15-yr-old cover-up. Contrary to most crimes, the victims of child molestation are more credible witnesses years after the crime, after they have become adults. Unfortunately, that makes it possible for the molester to continue undetected for a long time. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 22 Dec 10 - 01:22 AM So you would disregard the effect of punishment as a deterrent? Or dispute it? The message to would-be child molesters would be that it's okay if you can remain undiscovered for long enough. Lucky? Not for the victims. |
