BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:09 AM

if you take the thinking on this thread and extend it, then was it the democrats rhetoric that cause Ronald Reagan to be shot. Was it the democrats rhetoric that cause Squeaky Fram to try and shoot Gerald Ford?

The logic doesn't make sense , or was it simply a disturbed person?

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:04 AM

Greg I do not and never will blame Islam for people who commit terrible acts of terrorism. It is a mistake to do so I think and so do many others. No more that I can say the trouble in Ireland was religious, it was political as in the case of 911.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 10:56 AM

Slag: How about identify the nut cases early and do something positive to help or re-direct them before thay go off the deep end. Don't just kick them out of school, refer to mental health and alert the proper authorities. Spot the loners with violent or anti-social tendencies. We could do much more than has been done to date.

That would require money set aside for that. As in, national mental health medical coverage. Yeah, good luck, try getting that through the "all government spending is evil" House of Representatives. Hahahahahah! Mwahahahahaha!

Dreamer
You know you are a dreamer
Can you put your hands in your head?
Oh, no!

We're not making this about politics. It's about violent, over-the-top, shoot-em-up, death-to-our-enemies rhetoric. That Palin et al. use that kind of rhetoric for political purposes is their fault, not ours.

Donuel: This is what I expect from Glen Beck today.

"This delusional kid is a lefty pot smoking liberal who is a pawn of the progressive national socialists to create an atmosphere to take our guns away"

You got it from Jud Phillips yesterday.

Greg F: I cannot blame any party for the irrational act of someone else.

Kinda like not blaming Islam for the actions of a few nutters, you mean?

AWESOME COMMENT. You rock.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:46 AM

I cannot blame any party for the irrational act of someone else.

Kinda like not blaming Islam for the actions of a few nutters, you mean?

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:44 AM

FWIW, an automatic weapon is one which keeps firing when you hold the trigger. A semiautomatic weapon resets itself so all the operator has to do is pull the trigger for each shot. Other types of weapon need to be reset in one or another way between shots. These definitions have been around for quite a while.

A semiautomatic with an extended clip in the hands of someone with deadly intent is a very deadly weapon, especially if they are trained in its use.

Just because the Fox propaganda machine, including Glen Beck, calls the shooter something does not make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM

Everyone is correct that many people should not ever even spell the word firearm never the less own one. However, this scene plays out over and over again in the US. Some crazy walks into a College and starts killing teachers and college kids. Walks into McDonald's and starts shooting. The political comments, the we got to stop these people and other statements from people like Beck, I am sure that fuels the fire with the crazy. But I am also sure that those same people will find someone else or some other cause to do the exact same thing ... I cannot blame any party for the irrational act of someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:44 AM

Some folks say that the laws are fine... They say that we just need to enforce the laws... This is incorrect... The laws aren't just fine... Anyone can go to Richmond, Virginia for one of their many gun shows and buy whatever the heck they want to buy... No background checks... No nuthin'... You got the cash and the sky is the limit in terms of just how much fire power you wnat to take home... Or back to Mexico...

As for the 9mm Glock not being a machine gun??? Well, that is correct... It is a semi-automatic and can be fired as fast as one can pull the trigger... Look down at your own finger and go thru the motion of pullin' a trigger... How many seconds did it take you to empty a 20 round extended clip??? 6 seconds??? 8??? 10 seconds???

How many of you have fired a 9mm??? What happens to the accuracy when it is fired that quickly??? Well, unless you are highly skilled the accuracy goes to pot with each successive shot because of the recoil... That means that unless you are highly trained and skilled that after the 1st shot then it's Katie-bar-the-door for the rest of them...

Maybe Rap can better explain it but the bottom line is that these weapons in the hands of folks who are not highly trained and smkilled is like tossing the car keys to a drunk teenager...

That is the point here... The NRA quit being an organization that cared about gun safety into one that only care$ about $ales of gun$...

So I would hope over the coming months that we will also examine the general public's needs for guns that should only be in the hands of highly trained and skilled owners... I mean, isn't that reasonable???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:12 AM

This is what I expect from Glen Beck today.

"This delusional kid is a lefty pot smoking liberal who is a pawn of the progressive national socialists to create an atmosphere to take our guns away"

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:01 AM

Laws vary from state to state regarding firearms purchase, but a felony conviction isn't the only common restriction. For example, most states ban firearms possession by the mentally ill (variously defined).

"Automatic" is the term generically used for handguns that cycle a cartridge into the chamber through the force of the previous round, as distinguished from a revolver. A separate pull of the trigger is required for each shot (unless the weapon has been illegally modified), as distinguished from an automatic weapon (usually a long arm), which continues to fire as long as the trigger is held back, until the ammunition supply has been exhausted.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:46 AM

A sober comment from the UK Guardian's Michael Tomasky:

Where hate rules at the ballot box

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:31 AM

We did 10 years ago but their election software ws better than ours.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:36 AM

Sorry - that was me the last guest.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 04:59 AM

'Look, if you insist on making this about politics, what exactly are you doing to the level of rhetoric?'

I can see that this is a new situation for you. But its old stuff for the UK. For about ten years we had a PM called Thatcher. She used to come on TV every night and say the IRA were nothing but criminals. She disallowed the voice of the people who disagreed with her on this point to be heard. Political debate was stifled. The BBC was constantly being called biassed against her

She was into confrontation and the language she used to was confrontational.

As she turned our streets into battlefields, she was getting all sorts of international plaudits for fighting wars hither and thus.

Try to understand this. You will not like it, if these people get in power. If you are frightened to frequent your city streets because people plant bombs. Because you and your children are drawn into riots and crime.

This is not party political - its about the way you conduct yourself in civilised debate. If someone is flirting with the language of violence - don't be seduced. Blow them a raspberry in the polling booth - its the only language they understand.

And organise yourselves to do it. Its the only effective way to honour your dead.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 03:45 AM

Only a felony conviction can disqualify a person from a legal gun purchase.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 03:12 AM

Early on- and I believe it was on Fox news, the host - a woman - said that it appears that the killer had obtaned his gun legally and made the remark that it seems odd because of his history of instability. This was on the first day.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Slag
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:50 AM

News alert, not that it make a whole lot of difference: The weapon was NOT an automatic, that is, it was not a machine gun. It was a semi-automatic. That makes a big difference legally. It makes no difference to those injured or to the loved ones of those who were killed. I have a friend whose daughter is in a vegatative state because the bf for whom a restraining order was handed down, knocked at her door and threw sulfuric acid in her face. A whack job. Ban sulfuric acid. I have heard of people having their thoats slit ear to ear with one swipe of a blade, certain and almost instantaneous death. Ban sharp things. etc. If that would only really work. Alas, for the world we live in.

How about identify the nut cases early and do something positive to help or re-direct them before thay go off the deep end. Don't just kick them out of school, refer to mental health and alert the proper authorities. Spot the loners with violent or anti-social tendencies. We could do much more than has been done to date.

The connection between what this guy called politics and what sane folks call politics is lightyears apart. One report is saying that two of his favorite books were The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. This guy was in a party of one. Look, if you insist on making this about politics, what exactly are you doing to the level of rhetoric? How does that help bring much needed unity to this nation? If we can't come together over this tragedy we will never come together at all and a house divided cannot stand. If division is all you know or embrace then war ultimately follows. Is that what you want? More bloodshed, on a massive scale? Just keep up the hard nosed rehtoric, both side and eventually, that's what you will have.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:50 AM

FOX NEWS segments, Clear Channel Radio shock jocks, White Power Websites and similar patriotic bigoted sites, EVEN CANDIDATES...

SHOULD REQUIRE A LABEL just like cigarretes, prescriptions or movies.

Lets get a bi partisian multi faith panel to oversee the rating of the violence , financial harm and other factors that a viewing public may see right off the bat.

If they get the equivalent of an X rating let them squeal until they change their tone.

Hey if npr condones violence give them a red danger label as well, but at least it is some small thing that actually can be done in a 1st ammendment open society.

Get 'er done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!













I remember watching Barney Franks (when he had no idea what Glen Beck was teaching people about Obama being a Nazi and having concertration camps etc) , when a women seriously said to him that he should not be supporting a nazi born in Africa etc.

Barney said in amazement, "Are these people from Mars or something?"


IF we can't return the fairness doctrine that Reagan abolished, at least we can get a label system by a federal broadcasting agency, outside group like the FED is not really part of the goverment.

You can't fix stupid or legislate hate away but you can have lables.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:28 AM

Yes Genie it is terrorism. Even the threat alone is half as powerful as violence itself. The mind becomes less rational and loses focus when engulphed by fear.

Don't forget that we have had people fly SMALL planes into the IRS building and even the White house recently. Desperate people with little information or imagination will do stupid copy cat crimes or terrorism even if their lifewas never about terrorism. Their life only needed to be about repeated messages of hopelessness, fear and despair because of the Liberals, commies, Jews, Blacks, MExicans...fill in the usual suspects and scapegoats. Remember the Hutus and Tutsies? To watch this behavior repeated every year of your life for a lifetime and you may begin to believe it is in our DNA.



We still have to talk about the white hot rhetoric that steers people with fear who have no other attention to information or truth, and act soley upon what they hear.

The alternative is silence where evil implies silence as consent.



..........................

If you have have read this forum for over 10 years you might remember how I spent several years posting as a virtual prophet of doom. People hated and dismessed my remarks. I turned to illustrating them instead and they were more tolerated. Today there are people who have made a profession of doom in the coming water crises, climate crises, nuclear terror crises, cyber war crises, oil crises, bio warfare crises, extinction crises....and rightfully so.

Within 40 years it is concievable that 5 billion people will perish within a single decade.   As a species, we still need whacko survivalists. You can see it in TV programing and elsewhere throughout society. Even the money changers are spooked and feel justified hoarding all that there is to be owned in a greedy and senseless way. ( I assure you they won't digest gold well)
Cognitive dissonence will prevent normal sane people from even wanting to think about the coming global problems, let alone to change their life today to deal with life 30 years later.
The average person is capable of about 15% change to their behavior without an emotional overload diminishing their progress. More change than that, and a sort of grieving depression takes place.

I have said it is better to have an intense short depression than to settle for a 20 year medium depression...when it comes to the economic collapse/inflation/theft. Rebuilding will begin later in the slow scenario. This probably applies to the human psyche as well.

America has chosen the slow path to economic recovery the same way Japan did.
20 years will bring most of us all back to where we began but with very little to show for the changes and painful deprivations.
In such a climate civil wars can happen.

So this was the bad news that makes people nervous.
The truth will help us more than the dirty lies.
It is true some people can't handle the truth but heaven help me,
most of us cherish the truth and draw trust and nourishment from it.
So we all need to keep telling the truth even if yout butt does look big in that dress.

The alternative is silence where evil implies silence is consent.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:24 AM

Olddude, we - most of us - are not blaming this on politics, as such, or on party affiliation. We are saying that violent rhetoric that calls for "taking out" people via "second-Amendment remedies" to political differences or election outcomes, that demonizes others as the sort of vermin that deserve extermination, that employs graphics that seem to show certain people in the cross-hairs of a rifle, etc., actually can disinhibit or provoke the violent inclinations of the many unstable individuals among us, and often does.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:51 AM

Olddude, if "the class of weapons would not make a difference," why not allow everyone except the certifiably mentally ill & those convicted of violent crimes to walk the streets carrying machine guns?

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:25 AM

When Teddy Roosevelt was running for office as an independent, a man came up to him before his speech and shot him right in the chest. The bullet tore through his folded speech and his eyeglass case and lodged in the chest wall. Bleeding with the bullet embedded in his chest he refused to not give his speech. In the speech he said, "it takes more than a bullet to kill a bull moose" hence the name of his party. He carried that bullet the rest of his life. The man that shot him was angry .. there had been a lot of political bickering going on yada yada.   

indeed this is not a new event in history, it is a tragic repeat that again rests with the crazy. They will do this no matter what reason and if there is no reason they will find any reason. Blaming it on a party or politics is a mistake. That is the way Teddy looked at it and the way we all should.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 11:12 PM

We don't know everything about this.

However, at this point, perhaps we can ask Slag and any others-- who seem to be right of center. for some reason-- who feel it's unfair to link this to dear Sarah, who the Democrats and members of other parties are who have produced political ads with specific opponents in what seem to a rational person to be crosshairs.

Slag tells us others have done this before.   OK, let's have specifics--including source and date.

Particularly telling, it seems to me, is, as several posters have already noted, the fact that when Sarah came out with her "cross-hairs list", and Giffords was on it, that Giffords herself pointed out that there are consequences to something like the "cross-hairs list."

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:31 PM

When I first read that they were surveyor's marks I looked up surveying symbols online and never saw anything like that. That doesn't mean there aren't such surveyor's marks but they weren't on the site I looked at so they wouldn't be widely used or known. Who in their right mind would use a symbol that looks too much like crosshairs? Just like the anti-abortion nuts: pull this shit and when violence erupts then deny deny deny. How much longer is the public going to put up with this?

The problem is, when did Palin ever try to clear up the misconception that these marks weren't rifle crosshairs? To my knowledge she never has to this day (that was her spokesperson who said they were surveyor's marks not Palin herself).

How many months was that map posted? She had plenty of time to clear it up but she, to my knowledge, was entirely silent on the matter. Now, it seems to me when you are engaging in something that others are misconstruing as dangerous behavior, you owe it to the public to set the record straight to put people's minds at ease. When you don't, people have every right to assume they were right to make the accusation. Ms. Giffords therefore was totally justified to call them rifle sight crosshairs--something which Palin did not bother to repudiate. I also regard them rifle sight crosshairs.

Palin knew what she was doing, did it deliberately, fanned the flames of lunacy with intent, and I hope she is disgraced and ruined forever because of it. Once again, I don't care if the shooting was connected to Palin's actions or not--doesn't matter. When you choose to go down that road, you own whatever violence erupts whether you like or not, whether you think it's fair or not. Ms. Giffords was right about that also--that kind of BS has consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:22 PM

"Well, no sane person would take literally the idea that WE were suggesting real violence toward our opponents!"

Actually there might be some truth in this -- what sane person would take ANYTHING they say at face value?

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:19 PM

a 'surveyor's symbol.'...right...what % of the public interprets crosshairs as 'surveyor's symbol.'?

"Well, no sane person would take literally the idea that WE were suggesting real violence toward our opponents!"
....no need...seems we have plenty of non-sane ones to do the deed...

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 10:14 PM

Gollee, I didn't know that gun ws loaded....

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:53 PM

And a big ditto to that, Don...

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:41 PM

"Apparently Fox News agrees with the senator from Tennessee [Lamar Alexander] because when Palin's name was mentioned at a vigil for Giffords, they cut the video feed.

Palin offered her 'sincere condolences' on her Facebook page Saturday.

'We never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights,' Palin aide Rebecca Mansour told conservative talk show host Tammy Bruce.

Mansour agreed with Bruce's suggestion that the crosshairs were simply representing a 'surveyor's symbol.'"

Jaysus, Mary, and Joseph, gimme a break!!!

Don Firth

P. S. (Aren't you supposed to beep when you back up like that?)

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM

Lead,
you are correct, no one needs an automatic weapon. I have a real beef with the semi-AK 47s as they can be altered too easily.   They are illegal here also. Well you can get a machine gun permit but it costs a ton of money with some very serious rules and very specific license restrictions and only a few of those licenses are ever given. I only knew one guy that ever had one. Also who the heck could afford the ammo.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:32 PM

Ditto, Terry...

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:24 PM

In UK we do have a diffferent set up - but I cant see how ANYBODY needs an Automatic Weapon unless they are Uniformed Military ot Police !!

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 09:03 PM

Like the Tucson sheriff said, "Arizona has become the mecca of bigotry"...

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 08:50 PM

Mousy, seeing that we were very close to the Mexican border, I think I got the idea of what "varmints" they were referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 08:16 PM

to bobad:

I'm sure they meant roadrunners.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 08:06 PM

A brief anecdote from the last time I was in Arizona.

Camping in a remote campground in the Dragoon Mountains one day a car pulls in and an old couple (probably in their eighties) gets out of their car, opens their trunk and proceeds to strap on holsters and six guns.

I asked them what they were going to do with the guns. They replied that they were going up the mountain trail to target practice.

I asked them what they were practicing for, they replied "varmints".

I asked what kind of "varmints"?

They replied,"the two legged kind".

I gave them a wide berth.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:38 PM

Bullet's path leaves uncertain future for trauma victims

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:37 PM

yes bobad, repost darn it for heaven sakes none of this guest stuff :-)

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM

Sorry, that GUEST post at 7:27 was me - dang it I have a new add on that removes cookies when you leave a site and I'm trying to figure out how to put in exceptions - guess I don't have it figured yet. I apologize. Will repost under my login if you wish.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:30 PM

However, shots were already taken in a congested area, but only by the killer

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:29 PM

to GUEST:

I'm sure they meant roadrunners.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:28 PM

point taken art, hence more training should be required beyond the safety training .. can't speak on it, I only know people who are very highly skilled ex special forces or police .

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 07:15 PM

artbrooks: The guys who manhandled the shooter to the ground and took his gun away did exactly the right thing.

At no slight risk to their own safety. They are the true heroes here.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:48 PM

Being as how this happened in Arizona, I'd be surprised if there weren't more than a few people in the crowd carrying. I'm glad they demonstrated the good sense to not get into a major firefight in a congested area. I have no personal problem with people carrying for individual self defense, but the idea of one or two - or a dozen - untrained John Waynes all trying to get involved at the same time scares the crap out of me. Concealed carry classes do not teach anyone how to react in this kind of situation. The guys who manhandled the shooter to the ground and took his gun away did exactly the right thing.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM

Genie
it depends on the state, some states it is indeed easier to get a license but even in those states you better not have any convictions of any type. Likewise all require an FBI background check and mental health record it is unlikely but not impossible that a crazy can get a license. It has happened but more rare i think.

The class of weapon would not make a difference, a crazy would just bring multiple wheel guns with him or her instead. If all guns were banned he or she would just cook up a home made pipe bomb .. can't stop crazies no matter what you do, you just have to train yourself to spot them hopefully first. The Secret Service are masters and picking out those with an agenda , they are highly trained as i am also.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:30 PM

bobad, I'd say to Palin and Mansour,
"If it looks like shooting-range target, talks like a shootin-range target, and quacks like a shooting-range target, chances are it's a shooting-range target."

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:28 PM

"What have the crazies to do with right or left wing?"

Why then, pray tell, is the right scrambling to scrub their public faces of the rhetoric of the wild west?

Oh, look here's another one: GOP senator urges media not to talk about Palin's violent rhetoric

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

Kendall, I'm not calling for a ban on hand guns. It's more the semi-automatics (guns that let you get off dozens of shots without reloading) that I'm concerned about.

You're right that kendall armed robbery, murder, and assassination do occur in societies that ban guns, but you're overlooking an important point.   If guns (or certain types of guns) are prohibited or their ownership/carrying strictly regulated, a would-be assassin CAN BE arrested and disarmed BEFORE s/he shoots anyone.   Seems like in the US today, we pretty much allow nearly anyone to carry very deadly weapons (unless, of course, they've been convicted of possession of marijuana, of course) UNTIL they use such weapons in an act such as murder.    I think you'll find that gun-involved homicides are more frequent in the US than in most other democracies that have more restrictive gun-control laws.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:04 PM

Q: What have the crazies to do with right or left wing?

Depends. Whose rhetoric are the crazies playing out? Do words have no effects, or at least on the crazies? Or is it possible that crazies see irresponsible words and somehow take them on board?

This is a wake-up call. Painting it like a one-off, having nothing to do with the poisoning, gun-threatening rhetoric in right-wing politics, we will have missed a valuable opportunity. Already it's going that way; look at this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:00 PM

Everybody calls on statistics, but can't quote specifics.

Senator Mike Lee, Utah-
"I don't think we're going to legislate our way out of the risk. To the contrary, there is abundant research suggesting that in cities where more people own guns, the crime rate, espacially the murder rate, goes down."
Canadian Press, January 9, 2011; Lee-Ann Goodman.

I think Senator Lee is correct, at least for the West, but I can't produce reliable statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 05:43 PM

What have the crazies to do with right or left wing?