BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM

Come on, pdq... This is absolute mythology... What??? The fuckin' ACLU, which had been buggin' lots of state courts over the issue for years, now makin' an elected president fall to his knees without one single federal judge ruling that a state hospital had to open up the doors???

I mean, no offense pdq, but I'd like some of whatever you been smokin'...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:37 PM

Laying blame on the outsourcing of the mentally ill to halfway houses can be blamed both on the ALCU and Reagan ... the ALCU has always advocated for the rights of the mentally ill insisting they should not be locked up ... Reagan took note of this and realized yes, this is a good way to save some $money$ signing the bill and opening the gates of the asylums letting the inmates free to roam the streets .... ....Reagan probably also saw the movie "One who Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest" which was a big hit at the box office at that time   which possibly could have reinforced his decision .... so kids, who is to blame?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:30 PM

Please provide legal citations.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:28 PM

The first important decisions in the patients rights crusade were made in the mid 1960s while Reagan was governor of California. They were the result of lawsuits by the ACLU.

We keep hearing about mental patients being cleared out of institutions while he was president. That was 20 years after the fact. He said many times that he was not happy being forced to release these people but that was what the court said and he had no choice.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:10 PM

Exactly, Bobert...and I was working in a VA psychiatric hospital when we got the same directions - vets were "outplaced" into halfway houses or simply discharged who had been institutionalized for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 09:06 PM

Here is a reasonable statement on the mental health subject...


"My wife worked for the chief of the psychiatric department at the Brentwood VA in California during the early 80s. From the mid-70s to mid-80s there was a strong 'patients rights' movement generated by the mental health advocate community. Although there were many facets to this movement, one of the primary elements was a re-examination of the criteria for institutionalizing patients.

The point of contention revolved around interpretations of what it meant for a patient to be able to 'take care of himself.' Prior to this the interpretation was rather strict; if a patient could not earn an income and provide shelter and food for himself (and if there were no family members able to care for him), then he would normally be institutionalized.

Begining in the late 70s, the advocacy groups began to demand a lower standard. As long as a patient could merely wash and dress himself, and could perform the mechanical tasks of shovelling food into his mouth, then every effort was made to force the institutions to release them. My wife's boss spent many months both in court and testifying before the state assembly trying to stop this lowering of standards. Unsuccessfully.

Predictably, most of the newly discharged patients were unable to take care of themselves in any meaningful sense of the word, and became the homeless people on the street. It's no coincidence that the decline in California's mental health insitution population closely matched the sharp increase of homeless (in California, at least) during the same period. In fact, for about two years, my wife literally was on a first name basis with every homeless person we ran across in the Westwood/Santa Monica area. They were all former patients who had been 'sprung' from the VA by well meaning advocate groups who then simply walked away and left these guys hanging.

Reagan was not involved in this movement, nor was he a symptom or symbolic of it. Quite the contrary. The people who 'liberated' the inmates tended to be on the opposite end of the political spectum. In fact, it was the ACLU who provided legal representation to force the VA to release these patients."

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:44 PM

Where exactly do you come up with this, pdq??? That is mytholgy... I was there... The reason that Reagan pushed to deinstitutionalize was part of a larger plan to reduce spending... It was about $$$$$.... Not about ACLU... Man, you need to visit Earth now and then...

BTW, the push for deinstitutionalization was at a time when Federal Title XX funds were also being cut... Those federal moneies were for the backup services within the community such as transportation, out patient mental health services, adult day care services and all the things that if we were going to cut mental health spending that would be needed on the "outside " so this became to social workers everywhere the Reagan "double whammy"...

And my friends who are still in social work back in Richmond tell me that its gotten even worse... Les and less money spent on mental health and they are having to be both social workers and mental health workers... This is a recipe for disaster...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:31 PM

"...But it was a Glock with a 30-round chamber..." ~ Genie

Must get crowded in there.

Hint: Genie, don't ever discuss guns. You sound like a complete idiot doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:21 PM

"It is not MY fault that I never learned to accept responsibility!"
Short Funny Quote by, Unknown.


"A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory."
Short Funny Quote by, Unknown.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences."
— P.J. O'Rourke

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:15 PM

Loughner's weapon was not a semi-automatic

Ahem. The Glock is a semi-automatic handgun.

Subject: BS: 20 shot at political gathering in AZ
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 08:11 PM

Slag, no, Loughner's weapon was not a semi-automatic. But it was a Glock with a 30-round chamber, and that allowed him to hit 20 people quickly without carefully taking aim. (I kind of doubt he deliberately shot the child.)   Had he not had to stop to reload, he probably would have shot twice as many. It was when he paused to reload that others in the crowd subdued him.

And, Olddude, if there were a lot of other gun-toters in that crowd, there's a good chance a lot more people might have been caught in the crossfire.   
I've known way too many otherwise "normal" people who behaved like maniacs (e.g., behind the wheel of a car or in violence towards family members) when they became angry, for me to want a lot of non-certifiably-insane non-felons to be "packing" when they're at political rallies, etc.

And, OldTimer, yes, McVeigh's weapon consisted of easily-obtained materials, but it was not at all quick or easy for him to set up the means of employing it and then to employ it. That was a helluva lot harder than carrying a handgun into a parking lot and opening fire on a crowd.


Slag, I don't like to see an event like this used for partisan advantage, but neither is it fair or responsible to assume that "both sides are equally culpable" in the use of "the language of annihilation" or to postulate that just for the sake of being non-biased.
I say we need to call out the individuals — political spokespeople, politicians, pundits, bloggers, talk show hosts, etc. — who are engaging in demonizing of those who disagree with them and whose language seems to call for violence. We need to hold them accountable for the aftermath.    It's not necessarily going to turn out that such people are evenly distributed across political parties or the political spectrum.

Q, it turns out Judge Rolls DID have extra security protection, ever since he'd received so many death threats following his decision to allow a lawsuit on behalf of some undocumented immigrants who claimed their rights were violated.   That didn't keep him from becoming a victim, even if he was not Loughner's intended target.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:59 PM

The mental patients that were released while Reagan was presinet were the result of lawsuits by the ACLU, which claimed such people were being held against their will.

The court agreed hand they were released.

Why don't you ever have the facts right?

You don't give a shit about facts, that's why.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:45 PM

Phelps is a one-trick pony who only bores me these days.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:38 PM

Back when I first became a social worker the most mentally ill were kept longer than 60 days in state mental hospitals and then came Ronnie Reagun ridin' in to change all that... Deregulate the corporations and let them police themselves and deinstitutionalize the mentally ill and let us social workers try to police our messed up clients out in the real world...

Well, both have been miserable failures...

When I left social worfk it took an act of Congress tyo get a "green warrant" on a mentally ill person... I mean, I had quite a few that were as messed up as this guy and I'd make the calls and the magistrate would ask me if he or she had a gun to anyone's head???

Things haven't changed unless it has become even harder for social workers to get folks off the street and into treatment... This is also a story about a failed idea about how to treat our mentally ill...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:36 PM

Phelps is a monster, didn't someone do a lawsuit against him for his picketing of fallen soldiers. These people should do the same in this case ... only way to stop this guy is to make him bankrupt

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:17 PM

This didn't take long, did it?...

Fred Phelps

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 07:01 PM

No rhetoric or interpretation required for one person:

MSNBC Today:

"Meanwhile, the leader of Westboro Baptist Church, an anti-gay Kansas-based church best known for picketing the funerals of slain U.S. soldiers and gay-pride gatherings, said its members will picket the funerals of the 9-year-old girl and five others killed in Saturday's attack. In a video, Fred Phelps says God sent the shooter to avenge the nation's sins.

"Thank God for the violent shooter," Phelps proclaims.

[end quote]

John

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:51 PM

"Boy, are YOU confused................ "

Not that confused .. N.H is not Colorado, and it's part of New England and resides right next door to Vermont.

josepp .. exactly.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:14 PM

Anyway, that's "Live, Freeze and Die".

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 06:08 PM

////American rhetoric ... it has been for years ... win at all cost, obliterate the opposition////

And that's fine. But if violence erupts in the wake of it, whoever spoke it last has to own it. That's how it works--talk the talk if you want to but you better pray no one acts on it or even appears to have acted on it and you're going to own it. You're an adult, aren't you? You know this.

. .... ""Live Free or Die", new Hampshire's motto, hell it's even on their car licence plates ... whew, heavy stuff from a rather Democrat leaning state.////

I don't interpret "Live Free or Die" to mean kill people who vote for bills you don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:51 PM

Bullshit, they'll blow 'em outta the water!

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:50 PM

New Hampshire? A "Democrat leaning state"??? Bill Loeb, the Sununu's & etc???

Boy, are YOU confused................

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:46 PM

Nevertheless, the Dems will have little chance of drawing a bead on Republican candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

Cross posted, Josz...

The Tea Party folks that got elected are so far out of their element that it will be interesting to see what happens when they have to deal with reality... I mean, from what I read and heard from them, they are clueless about the constitution they say "must be followed" and now Weeper of the House, Johnny Bonehead says they are going to have to provide constitutional justifications for any bills they propose... This is going to put a monumental hurt on their heads as most of them really don't have much experience and probably would struggle with US Government 101...

Yeah, lotta of them are in way over their head...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:21 PM

Its the testosterone in the water, josz... The liberals did that too, I'm sure...

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:18 PM

American rhetoric ... it has been for years ... win at all cost, obliterate the opposition. .... ""Live Free or Die", new Hampshire's motto, hell it's even on their car licence plates ... whew, heavy stuff from a rather Democrat leaning state.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:16 PM

I think what we will see next is a big schism in the tea party between the Sarah-lovers and the Sarah-haters. If that happens, it is essentially the death of the tea party. You just can't talk that talk for long before it catches up to you and it appears that it did. Palin seems to be in hiding now. Those who worked with her on McCain's campaign said that her bubbly public persona is offset by her private moroseness. When things don't go her way, she becomes very depressed and uncommunicative. I imagine she is a manic depressive right about now and her handlers will not allow her to be seen in public that way. If I'm wrong, where the hell is she?

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: josepp
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 05:09 PM

"Don't retreat, reload!"
- Sarah Palin, former Governor of Alaska

"If this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies."
- Sharron Angle, former member of the Nevada State Assembly

"If ballots don't work, bullets will."
- Joyce Kaufman, Radio host, Tea Party activist

"I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous . . . The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Currently serving United States Congresswoman from Minnesota Michele Bachmann, leader of the Tea Party Caucus, paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson

Strange too that the most violent rhetoric of the right comes from women who are supposed to be more peaceful than men. Shows you how seriously wrong something is on that side of the fence.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 04:54 PM

Exactly Guest ... the slogan on Woody Guthries guitar (this machine kills fascists) comes somewhat to mind regarding this.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM

I looked at the maps. Yes, the targets are there. The difference is therhetoric which came after the map. Search to your heart's content--you will not find any discussion of second amendment solutions or reloading. There is a different between "a targeted approach" and "take them out." If a targeted approach were violent in most cases, business campaigns would be out and would have to learn a whole new language. 'taint what you say, sometimes, it's the way you insight it.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM

Interesting bit on the deletion policy of the moderators of the Palin facebook page.

Any negative comment towards SP was immediately deleted, yet a message which said:


"It's ok. Christina Taylor Green was probably going to end up a left wing bleeding heart liberal anyway. Hey, as 'they' say, what would you do if you had the chance to kill Hitler as a kid? Exactly."


Was left.

What to make of that?





Link here to the Obama London Blog that spotted the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:49 PM

There are actually three maps that show Congress people as targets, starting with one by the Democratic Leadership Committee in 2004...


                                                                                                      all three are here

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:43 PM

"I've got it in my sights" has been a common expression for a couple or more centuries. My dictionary says 1602.

Now you are asking that it be removed from speech?
I guess " zero in" has to go too.

A lot depends on viewpoint. ".....another attack on the left."
Some here make similar mindless attacks on the right.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:31 PM

It depends on what falls to hand, Donuel. You used a bad analogy.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:24 PM

The legal def also applies to using only a minimum effective force for self defense. For example a reasonable man if attacked by a woman with a broom would not defend himself with a knife, but dust pan would be OK/

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:07 PM

Bobster

   oh they are indeed wrong. Who the hell puts cross hairs on as a logo. There really is no reason for all of the hate peddling. I agree on that for sure and border line mental cases that get all fired up when listening to this crap. yup, like the guy in the bar with a couple of drinks and then bashes the guy next to him in the head because he said something about Harley motorcycles. A reasonable person would not do that. That is true also. There are border line head cases everywhere today and hate peddling does nothing to help. All the more reason for people to be more security conscience I think. Even the border line hot heads I think would not go this far. Takes a special type of defect that will always exist .. IMO

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 01:01 PM

Amen, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:58 PM

This isn't about "reasonable" people, Ol'ster... It's a bout borderline people who also own handguns...

Reasonable people aren't going to do stupid stuff... Borderline people do... Unfortunately, as a former social worker working mostly with folks with mental illnesses, I understand that these folks don't process information like the rest of us... Herein lies the problem with terms like "Don't retreat, reload", or "2nd amendment remedies"... Reasonable people may hear these term and shrug them off as metaphors but borderline people may hear those terms and think of them as "permission" to act...

The other problem is that if we follow attacks on people going back to the 60's there is one thing that stands out... Seems that too many of them have been perpetrated by those on the right against those on the left or by people who have bought into Ronald Reagan's theory that the government is evil... I mean, going back to JFK some 45 years ago one would be hard pressed to find anyone on the right who has been targeted... I'm not talkin' about just politicians either... How about doctors working at women's clinics??? Lotta them been shot, too...

Bottom line, looks like the right kinda owns the violence side of the equation...

(But what about the Unibomber, Boberdz...)

Well, he certainly fell into the "conspiracy theorists"/anit-government category that seems to to be rampant on the right...

No, I don't buy this "both sides" PR stuff that the right is ratcheting up right now... There is a reason why Palin pulled the cross hairs down off her site... They know they are in the wrong but they are going to do everything in their power to try to shift yet another terrorist attack against the left on the left itself...

Normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:43 PM

I try to use the legal definition of reasonable. What a court would determine by way of action. Nothing more. Now of all the people you have ever met in your life, of all the people that watch TV and may even agree with Glen Beck. How many do you know that have done such an act? you see reasonable is a pretty clear cut standard (I think anyway)

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:42 PM

Reasonable people do crazy things too. With enough hate programming the behavior of a reasonable person will influence their response to a particular situation. Think of the neighbor who seems reasonable but given a situation where he need only do nothing to kill a child of an evil athiest, his behavior is twisted leaned hate.

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM

"So figure the odds of running into someone like that, probably small, but be prepared if you do. Not that you need to carry, but think about, what would you do."

Olddude's comment is an illustration of the difference between a gun-obsessed society like the US and places like Europe where although some criminals carry guns, most of the police don't and a miniscule proportion of the population does.

It's about seeing yourself as a victim. It might seem contradictory ("I ain't a victim because I've got a gun") but the truth is people see themselves as victims of crimes which haven't been committed, which may never be committed and that fear, which may or not be irrational (probably the latter though if considered in the cold hard light of day) is what drives gun cultures such as the US. There are other reasons of course, but it's fear and a sense of victimhood which drives intelligent people to arm themselves in this way.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:33 PM

A reasonable person does not commit an act of violence because of a Glen Beck, nor a Bill Maher or any other talking head...

Depends on your definition of "reasonable", dunnit? And perhaps some of the victims of Kristallnacht & The Camps might disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:32 PM

The key word is "reasonable." If someone has cognitive issues, is more suggestible, is in some sort of psychiatric trouble, they are more likely to take an action which is drummed into their head as a means of solving their/the world's problems.

If the shooter had gotten help, there are at least 6 people who might be alive today. Arizona, of course, has made that more difficult with their budget cuts for mental health.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:30 PM

The reason why Gabby has miraculously survived such a devestating wound is because most of the energy of the bullet traveled outside the exit wound and kept going.
If the bullet had stopped inside her brain the brain would have acted like jello absorbing all the remaining energy of the bullet and smash repeatedly against the inside of her skull in wave after wave until all the energy was dissapated.

She may have some sight remain for her right eye since the bullet that went in the left brain was above the optic nerves. The optic nerve cross to opposite sides just like the nerves for the arms and legs.
The LaBroca region on the left side however controls speech however since she is female this region exists somewhat on the right side as well. Men exclusively only have a speech region in their left brain.
It is funny but true that women talk twice as much as men in a day and speak of their feeling more easily because they do in fact have another speech region in their brain's right hemisphere.

This gives hope that she will recover her ability to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM

Donuel
there is a odorous element of hate rambling in the media today. I think myself it does much more harm then good. But no amount of hate peddling on the networks would make any reasonable man or woman I know do such acts. When I look at history and read my old magazines about Teddy Roosevelt or about Taft and all the hate messages back then, It doesn't look any worse at all to me. What has changed is TV brings it into our homes where before - one had to buy the paper. I never think that messages of hate are not harmful or dangerous and people should not think hard before they say such things on TV, However nothing will stop a defective human from doing such acts with or without the message.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM

for those who take "Ban sulfuric acid. ..ban sharp things" metaphor seriously...

It could be extended to "ban bricks and baseball bats" also, but banning many types of guns and SEVERELY restricting who is allowed to own them would not affect most people's lives like suggesting silly 'straw men' would.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM

old dude, I feel you are crossing one bridge too far to equate the rhetoric of the Reagan era to the white hot rhetoric today. I know your point has to do with a twisted mind is to blame rather than a political act of hate. However, the man who shot Reagan was trying to impress Jodi Foster in his delusional love affair.

I disagree with you in the same way that I disagree with Juan Willimas who said that liberals refused to jump to a hate motive for the Ft Hood shooter because he was Muslim, but liberals are hypocrits for immediately saying the Arizona shooter's motive was a political vendetta of hate.

I never felt that the Ft Hood shooter acted for any reason other than hate. If certain people were overly cautious in applying a motive for the Ft Hood killer, it was probably due to trying to avoid mass hysteria and stop a potential backlash directed at all Muslims in this country.

I stand by what Sheriff Dubnik said.

It might be good to hear from some public officials who have not been subject to violent threats recently...but it just may be that they're aren't any.

I monitor right wing radio and as a result I have no doubts the perpetual programing of hate, retribution and fear has brought a third of the people in this country to want to pull a hair trigger of vengence directed primarily at Obama, Democrats, women, gays, liberals, blacks, Jews, Mexicans, immigrants, Muslims and even you old dude.





After the Oklahoma bombing Rush LImbaugh wrote an Op Ed piece title "Why I am not to blame". There was no contrition.
Gretchen Carlson on morning FOX cable station said she understood why Gifford was shot because she voted for Obamacare. Again, no contrition.
These people (there I go again) see nothing fundamentally wrong for even thinking that a vote for National Health care should naturally cause some people to be shot.

The sickness is deeper than rhetoric.

Five years ago my fundamentalist right wing Christian neighbor saw my 4 year old climb into our family car on a hot August day a mere 10 seconds before I came out the front door. I did not see my son so I began searching all around the front and back yard and inside the house. My neighbor stood a mere 30 feet away and never said a word until I finally rechecked the backseat after about 15 minutes of my yelling my son's name. Later the neighbor walked part way across the street and said to me that he new my son was in the car all along.

I knew he hated liberals and atheists amd all the rest of the usual suspects but I had not imagined that his hate would be so great as to allow my son to die in a hot car.

That was an awakening for me.

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:40 AM

I think the Beatles are to blame for Charles Manson. If it were not for that "Helter Skelter" it would not have happened right?

see it is bad logic, I think anyway

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:21 AM

Well said Olddude ... well said.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot
From: olddude
Date: 10 Jan 11 - 11:14 AM

A reasonable person does not commit an act of violence because of a Glen Beck, nor a Bill Maher or any other talking head who has a show that does nothing more than promote insanity. A reasonable person doesn't watch Jerry Springer and think that is the way one should live their life either ... we are grasping at straws trying to find an answer to violence when the only real answer is: "as long as there are people , there will be people who commit senseless acts" So figure the odds of running into someone like that, probably small, but be prepared if you do. Not that you need to carry, but think about, what would you do.