Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk

Subject: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 10:50 PM

The "Guitar Talk" thread is getting out of hand with all these super expensive instruments. The fact of the matter is, that for me, hunting down wonderful instruments that cost very little is the REAL kick. I'm in the process of checking out a 30 year old Japanese copy of a Martin D-41 right now. It has a beautifully aged spruce top, lovely inlay, and a killer sound. I believe that the back and sides are rosewood veneer, but they had to save money SOMEWHERE, considering it probably cost about a third the price of a D-28 at the time. I'm still negotiating, so I won't get into the price right now, but it's a fine sounding instrument. Last night Mudcatter Michael Kaye was over and in his skilled hands it really spoke. We agreed that I've strung it too heavy (Masterclass 12-56)'cause it's work to fingerpick it (Mike doesn't use picks - I do) even though the action is decent. I'm going to put a set of Med. lights (12-54) and I think that should do the trick. Bottom line is it's fun to find cheap hidden treasures.

Rick

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: campfire
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 11:08 PM

Rick, I agree. Last summer I went hunting for a "camp" guitar - one that I didn't "really" care if it fell out of a canoe or into a campfire (that really happened to me once)- because I was sick of getting sand scratches and whatnot in my "good" guitar. I promised myself I would look at several before I decided on one - *but* - I went to my most-frequented music store and told him exactly what I was in the market for. He showed me a Vantage "second" - there is a fingerprint smudge in the finish - that as soon as I played it it said "I'm yours". No, its NOT a Collings (a friend of mine has one and I got to play on it a few times - it was orgasmic *NOI*)BUT it has a real sweet sound and the price was such that, yes, if something happened to it, I would get over it. It made me happy to play again and I found myself playing more on it than on my "good" guitar. I fingerpick without picks, too, and it works great for that. For a cheap guitar, "I done good". I paid about two days wages for it, but would pay more to NOT have anything happen to it.

campfire

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: MichaelM
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 11:20 PM

I have several times purchased instruments that were going o be my "stage" or "road" guitars only to invest so much time or money in getting a decent amplification system in them that they lose their status as couldn't-care-less instruments.

By the time you've worked that spruce baseball glove in you're in love. What to do?

Michael

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Mark Clark
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 11:32 PM

Rick,

I used to look for inexpensive but good guitars as well. Can't think why I stopped, maybe I'll have to start doing that as well. I bought my D41 years ago when I suddenly found myself a member of a working bluegrass band. It was the first Martin accoustic guitar I'd ever owned and remains the only one I ever bought.

The guitar I wish I still had was a National. It had a spruce top with mahogany back and sides. The neck was covered in mahogany but most of its mass was a big metal bar hidden inside. It was attached to the body with set screws so the angle was continuously variable. Someone had added a D'Armond pickup, painted the top gold, and added a pick guard that looked like mother of toilet seat. I found it in a pawn shop for twenty dollars back in 1961 and sold it a year later to some friends who needed a guitar but couldn't afford one. Sure was a nice guitar though. I still miss my stolen Gibson LG1 too.

When Leon Redbone first begain appearing at the old Quiet Knight in Chicago, he used to play a Harmony Soverign ($70) with a rosette of little black triangles crudely painted around the sound hole. Somehow in his hands that cheap little guitar sounded wonderful.

Yes, there's more pretty *guitars* than one also.

- Mark

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: DougR
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 11:53 PM

Rick: This is a good thread. Thanks for starting it. I think it's going to be real interesting.

DougR

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 12:07 AM

Years ago, after tearing up my good guitar performing, and after realizing that a pickup in a good guitar sounds no better than a pick up in a lesser guitar, I decided to get a cheaper guitar for performaces. I chose am Ibanez Ragtime; low cost, sounded great with a cheap transducer stuck inside, and had a great playing neck. It wasn't long before I loved this guitar! I still have it today, 20-some years later, and it still sounds great.

I love my expensive guitars, and feel very lucky indeed to be able own them ... but I agree the real key to a good sounding guitar, is the player!

By the way, my good guitar in those early days was 1969 Gibson Heritage. Today it is sitting quietly in a corner of my house, awaiting a neck reset and perhaps some other work. The Ibanez turned out to be a much better investment!

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 12:11 AM

Well, I have had a lot of high-end 12 strings, but my Ibanez Artist 12 is the one I've played when it counts, for the last 7 years. It's gettin' beat up, but who cares? It's an Ibanez! (whoops am I being xenophobic here?)

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 12:20 AM

chuckle, Rick ... that was exactly my thoughts on the little Ragtime, "OK if I'm going to wear out my performance guitar, let it be a cheaper one." but the thing held up beautifully for years! Much better than the 'so called' good one. Today, it's basically retired from performing, but it's still a fine guitar, and I think I spent almost as much on the case and the pick up as I did on the guitar!

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 12:39 AM

Ya know we touched on this here and there when we were running the "Guitar Threads" back last winter. We didn't ever pursue it and Rick my friend, this IS a great idea. I used to love to frequent the pawn shops and junk shops just to "see what I could see." Over the years I've run across some wonderful instruments that way. Sadly, these places are now more "tuned" to the guitar market then they used to be. Still, it makes for a fun day. I wish I had more time to do it.

I gotta' get outta' here tonite, but I shall return. Somehow this thread might be a great "ZEN KILLER" and that's a real favorite subject of mine.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: campfire
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 12:42 AM

Sorry, 'Spaw, but tonight has already been a great "ZIN" killer - hate to admit it, but somehow managed to down a bottle of White Zin tonight. Typing is taking much longer than normal....

campfire

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: lloyd61
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 12:45 AM

Last month I stood in for a friend and played at a Barn Dance. I played my 1938 Martin. Someone tried to buy it Cheap, they offered $2,000. Cheap in relative.

I did have a once in a life time buy. I purchased a 25 year old National Nickel Plated Mandolin for $35.00. The old timer wanted me to have the Mandolin to "Tell the Story of it's history". For $35.00 he gave it to me.

One of my interests is going to Garage Sales and buying cheap (Broken) guitars, fixing them up and giving them to kids with a few free lessons to get them started. Most of the Kids have pasted up my skills. One is now making his living with a guitar. He pointed me out at a concert with over 1,000 in attendance, He said, "thats the man that taught me how to play the Guitar". That made all me Garage Sale Hunting worth while.

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 11:52 AM

I think Duckboots (when I first met her) didn't really believe that you could know enough about instruments to actually make a living buying and selling them. I suspect now that she's aware of Stan Jay, George Gruhn, and Stan Werbin (and the empires they've created) she knows it can be done. Once while combing the garage sales, she watched with bemused tolerance while I examined several old beat up fiddles that were going for 20 bucks each. I asked her for a twenty and she was reluctant. I said the fiddle I wanted to buy was factory-made French and would be a good investment. I offered to split the profit with her, and she weakened. Next day we took it to Lorius Violins (here in Toronto) and got 400 for it. (meaning that they would sell it for 800) Peeling off 200 and handing it to her was a sweet feeling!

Rick

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 12:54 PM

I KNEW there had to be something else about you she liked!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: DougR
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 02:48 PM

Lloyd61:

What a great story! Thanks for sharing it.

DougR

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: CarlZen
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 07:20 PM

Sometimes I gets a bit o' th' ol' paranoia. When days have been tough and stressful, certain things get one down, the ol' Capital P creeps in....

'Spaw - lest I get more so, could you clarify your cryptic;

"I gotta' get outta' here tonite, but I shall return. Somehow this thread might be a great "ZEN KILLER" and that's a real favorite subject of mine. "

??????????????????????????

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: kendall morse (don't use)
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 08:14 PM

This may be obvious to some, but, I'm amased at the number of time I've heard people say "Some one stole my guitar." I say "Did you record the serial number?" "No, never thought of it." If you can supply the police with the serial numbers, they go into the NCIC crime list, and, who ever gets caught with that instrument, his ass is grass. I've had a tv stolen, plus a vcr, and I got them both back because I gave the numbers to the police. The vcr had finger print powder all over it, but, I got it back!

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 11:25 PM

I never bought a cheap guitar in my life. I bought my first guitar in 1973, a Yamaha FG -180. I paid $150.00 for it with a case. That was every dime I had. I bought a Stella Hawaiian with a 52 week mail order guitar course in the case for $25.00 at a house sale. The guitar needed strings too. The rent was a week late but I got the guitar. Once again every dime I had. I paid $75.00 for my Strad'l'Mar Tiple. The new work boots waited a week but the Tiple sounded just grand in the band. Cheap is a matter of timing in most cases. My $85.00 Buckby Banjo has lasted in my hands longer than a friends Bow Tie Mastertone. We both spent every pennie we had for the instruments so who spent the most? He sold the Bow Tie for a house payment while I still play the Buckby.

"....My was not too bad, two bits was all I had, And the more you pay. The more its worth." Don McLean

Don

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Sep 99 - 12:57 PM

It is obvious that a not-very-good guitar sounds better in the hands of a master, but do guitars change their sound over time depending on who plays them? I noticed that people were saying that they had went out and bought a guitar for performance that turned out to surprise them over the years. Would it make sense that a well-played guitar might improve its response, etc., even rise to the occasion? This is somewhat different, but I remember once in London talking to a friend of mine who was a piano student, and he said that the best job he had ever had was one he got playing a grand piano for some famous pianist (I forget who) who had just rebuilt his house and was going to be away for some time, and he wanted someone to "cure the walls" of his house. So my friend just went and played the piano for weeks to get the house used to the piano, and vice versa. If we are talking about responsive instruments, wouldn't they be likely to respond?
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Arnie Naiman
Date: 06 Sep 99 - 01:40 PM

I recently bought a Guitar in Toronto for my son for $300.00 Canadian, that works great and sounds awesome too! I think it's a Simon & Patrick - made in Quebec - a D size with a cedar top. I had a discussion at The Woods music & Dance camp with Jim Morrison (not the Doors guy) who complained that so many of the campers were using such high quality, rich sounding guitars that overpowered their songs and playing styles of music they were presenting. Now I am a proud owner of a Laskin which I use a lot- and for sure at times I wish I was just playing my old average D-18 or some guitar that was not so darn good. In fact I kept dead strings on that Laskin at The Woods Camp just for that reason (but it still was too good)and I often play that guitar with an extremely light touch to not overpower the music. (since when do you complain that your guitar is too good?) I also like my cheap old Stew Mac Eagle banjo that originally sold for $100.00.

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: DougR
Date: 06 Sep 99 - 07:12 PM

Peter T., that's certainly a new one on me. I never heard of conditioning the walls of a house to accommodate a musical instrument, like a piano.

That's very interesting.

DougR

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Margmac
Date: 06 Sep 99 - 09:06 PM

I don't know if they are cheap but son Dan is making fine sounding and looking guitars. Stop by if you are in VT but don't let him know his mom alerted you

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: DougR
Date: 06 Sep 99 - 11:59 PM

Margmac: Spoken like a good, true mother! I don't know you, but I think you are neat.

DougR

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 07 Sep 99 - 07:59 AM

I swear I wore two inches of fingertips off playing a cheap Harmony....but its tinny sound was somehow endearing....and it inspired me to write some pretty good songs (songs that satisfied me anyway)...plus I liked not having to worry about it being stolen, scratched, etc...I gave it away when I left....

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Songster Bob
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 12:35 PM

I tried to post to this last night, but got kicked off one line before finishing -- don't know if it's AOL, the modem, or the combination thereof.

To see some of the cheap (and not so cheap) instruments I have, go to

http://members.aol.com/rjclayton/instrums.jpg

I'd do that href thingie but can't remember how (I should learn, you know?). So you'll have to cut-and-paste to see 'em. None of them cost me more than $500, though some are worth far more than that now.

I'm a denizen of eBay, and have bought and sold something like twenty items there (some not instruments as such, like jazz 45s), and use it in place of yard sales (I'm never up on Saturdays early enough to find anything at those things anyway). If you con't count the archtop I got "for my birthday" last year, then I'm actually about $30 ahead on eBay.

I'm always looking for interesting instruments, though my wife says it's stupid to get another one that's more or less the same as one I have, so I have to point out all the differences from one to another (the newest is a Silvertone archtop that has a nicer neck than the 1943 Kay-made Orpheum I got "for my birthday," for example, so it's the one I put the DeArmond-copy pickup on for rockabilly playing). I'll still use the Orpheum (and plan to thin down the neck one of these days -- it has no truss rod/reinforcement, so it's a real Louisville Slugger) for Carter family songs, etc.

I was disappointed to miss out on the Kay flattop that started the Mudcat auction, for instance, even though I don't need another flat-top (two Martins and a nice little May Bell I got in Delaware one day when we went over to a court hearing on the kids who broke into our beach house). I still wanted it -- maybe it'd be perfect for slide, or some other attribute that I don't have.

Of course, I AM running out of room for instruments, and keeping strings "up to date" is harder, too. Oh, well, it could be worse -- I could be collecting Pokemon cards!

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 01:02 PM

Songster, pray tell, what might be the make and model of the six-string electric razor in the background with that "come hither" look?

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Bert
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 01:29 PM

Mother Margmac, I expect to see one up son Dan's guitars up for auction at Mudcat real soon.

Songster Bob, Wow a great collection, I want 'that one' and 'that one'

Bert.

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 01:41 PM

Okay...let me try a GREAT BIG HONKING BLUE CLICKY THINGIE so it's easier. If it don't work...well,sorry...I tried.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Songster Bob
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 04:57 PM

I don't know which guitar has the most "come hither" look to it, I'm afraid. I'll try to identify the instruments in the photo for you:

Upper left background, Strat copy with pointy headstock (recently sold on Ebay);

Five-string banjo next to the strat, B&D shell with replacement neck (my late Uncle Bobby's tenor with a new neck complimants of Bates Litthales);

Goldtone Banjo-guitar (w/ Fender-style headstock);

Orpheum archtop (1943 Kay-made);

Gison A-4 (1923) w/ "snake" headstock;

Martin D-28 (1964) w/ replacement top;

In front row: Regal (recent) dobro;

Harmony Marquis mandolin (1950s?) -- which I play in preference to the Gibson, despite the Gibson's tone;

Oahu lap steel (1950s) in front, on floor.

That's about half my collection (not counting the harmonicas and Jew's harps individually).

And the D-28, at $500, the most money out-of-pocket among them.

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: --seed
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 06:05 PM

Rick, you old rip-off artist, you. You owe your wife ten bucks (the profit was only $380--you should have kept only $190, but I won't tell Duckboots).

And Patsclaw--you must be asleep: You missed Don Meixner's public admission that he plays a tiple. C'mon, boy, get with the program. --seed

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 06:43 PM

Seed,

You need to reread the Tiple threads, I was one of the prime movers on reintroducing the tiple to The Mudcatalonians that seemingly live in this site.

Don

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 10:13 PM

The guitar that I seem to play most often is a $50 Hondo classical. The sound isn't all that great, however, it is small enough to take along on the boat and it is very easy to play while relaxing.

I have been looking for a small, steel stringed guitar with a wide neck and fairly good sound (not necessarily loud). A friend of mine has such a guitar, I believe it is a Gibson F25 (folk guitar with two pick guards). The problem is that I can't seem to locate one for sale. I was wondering if any of you may know of any make of guitar such as this that may be a bit more common? I would sort of like to keep it in the $500 to $700 range.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Bryant
Date: 08 Sep 99 - 11:56 PM

Some of the best $400 - $600 guitars I've ever played are made by Sigma -- Martin's mass-produced-in-Korea line. I own a dreadnaught sized Sigma that I really like a lot. Although it's not the sort of thing to make you drool, it holds it's own against guitars twice the price. If you're looking for a instrument that you don't have to treat like a piece of rare Chinese porcelain but has enough tone and volume to play with a group, I'd recommend one.

Bryantnotpaidbysigmaguitarsinanyway

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 07:52 AM

Songster...the Strat copy was the one that had caught my eye.....thanks...

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Bert
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 12:00 PM

Cap't Bob, A music store near here (Beam's Music - 610 647 3647) had a small Gibson from the fifties for around $500. It sounded really nice, but Tree would have killed me if I'd brought it home.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: wayne marshall
Date: 09 Sep 99 - 06:08 PM

Ah one thing i love is a cheap guitar!!!!! you can buy 2 or 20 for the price of one.My favourite is my 1930 oahu. It's a small body lap style guitar with a metal brige made in cleveland ohio. I bought it for thirty dollars in Buffalo N.Y. At one point i decided i was going to sell it and had it for sale in Song Bird music in Toronto. One dat Ry Cooder and David Lindley came to the store and they both went past all the $1000-2000 dollar guitars and they both headed straight to my oahu. Now magaine wrote a small note about it which i have kept along with the guitar ever since.It's one guitar that makes even this shit kickin' country boy sound like he's got a little soul.

Subject: RE: Cheap Guitar (and other things) Talk
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 10 Sep 99 - 01:26 PM

Bert ~~ I checked out that little Gibson you mentioned. The price was right but it had the narrow neck. Darn! I play a lot of melody (finger picken style) and with my wider larger than average fingers I sort of need the wide neck. The fellow at Beam's Music did mention that Louden guitars tend to have wider than normal necks. I'm not familiar with that guitar ~ possibly they make a small guitar. Anyway, will try to check it out.

Cap't Bob