BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM

If the road sweepers, dustbin men and street cleaners etc. couldn't do a good job without such incentives or massive bonus's we'd all be up to our necks in shit.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Steamin
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 10:48 AM

Alan Whittle;

Harlow Wood was closed for a number of reasons, the main one being the clinical risk of having a trauma and orthopaedic unit over 20 mins blue light from the main hospital. Techniques improve all the time and operations on more sick patients is easier, but at the cost of centralising services. what was appropriate to be done in small hospitals scattered all over once is not the situation now. Centralising and increasing the peer pool in medical staffing is the only way to carry out procedures on people who up till recently could not be treated. Yep, a bit of a bugger for localising of services, but a leap forward for treatment.

Also, the on cost of running the place, (same as Ransom Hospital) meant that getting rid put over 30% more money into direct patient care.

The reasons for closure you referred to existed in the minds of Alan Meale and the Chad. Certainly didn't exist in the minds of those trying to run NHS services.

ANYWAY

RBS bonuses?   Yeah, I don't like it, but considering how the banks are pulling the economy back on course, there has to be some incentive. Just a bit obscene in terms of the amount, not the principle.

if banks and multinationals were hanging from lamp posts, you couldn't afford a computer to type out diatribe. Think about it. Banging rocks together isn't my idea of an afternoon's enjoyment.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 03:33 AM

Teribus has nailed his colours to the mast, ' none of it concerns me '
child prostitution, sweatshop labour, child poverty, paedophiles exploiting children ? nowt to do wi' me guv.

I pity you.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:17 AM

"what those running a company do that I do not work for and have no part of does not concern me, so I keep my nose out of their business and my opinions to myself, because what they do does not affect me or anybody else outside that company."


... including gas fracking destroying water repositories, cyanide poisoning of many in India, global warming by excess pollution (sorry, Mr T does not believe in that one!), ...

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:04 AM

Can't recall calling anyone fat anythings. I'm doing weightwatchers myself since the new year - so its not my favourite term of abuse.

Bit of sophistry there though eh? Not our money, because its been paid as tax. Our ex- money then..... the money formerly known as ours. I'm sure Harriet Shaw Weaver felt a mild kinship with the loot that James Joyce was pissing up the wall, even though she had transferred its ownership. Its an unmistakeable feeling in the canon of human experience - seeing money pissed way that someone (perhaps not even ourselves) has sweated blood for. Perhaps you have been spared it so far in life - but you'll be lucky if you escape the feeling this side of the grave.

For nearly fifty years now - you have had to have your money paid into a bank account. I can remember when my Dad was not paid (as a policeman) in cash for the first time. All his mates in the force were pissed off. Banks have insinated themselves into the fabric of England and become part of our way of life. they overcharge ruthlessly and systematically and routinely for any bit of a service they perform. I've lost count of he number of times Ombudsmen and consumer groups have spotted their villainies - but no one ever cleans that particular Augean stables.

No they aren't our business. But they're bloody bad business at every opportunity. try and tell how bloody wonderful they are to all the small businessmen of England they have foreclosed on, when a few weeks credit might have helped them weather the storms - usually fomented by idiotic government policies. Often its just the government who need a damn good kick up the arse to protect a section of society. I remember being in Looe one week and every single fishing boat in the harbour had been foreclosed on. One or two - could have been mismanagement - but the whole lot!

Blame Bill Clinton if it helps you. but I think the enemy is within.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 12:47 AM

You miss the point Mr.Whittle, what those running a company do that I do not work for and have no part of does not concern me, so I keep my nose out of their business and my opinions to myself, because what they do does not affect me or anybody else outside that company.

Collectively calling people "fat twat bankers" or "fat twat businessmen" just because the sheep will bleat their approval does not help the argument or the situation. The majority of senior executives and CEO's of large companies have got to the positions they hold by their own efforts and sheer hard work.

Oh by the bye the people are not funding the banks, the Treasury is, the money ceased to be yours, or mine the second we paid it in taxes to the Inland Revenue. Will the Treasury make a profit on their investment, yes they will (It currently stands at about 300%), will we the tax payer get any advanyage from that? Possibly but I doubt whether we will see any benefit of it.

What benefit we did see of the intervention was that savings did not get lost and the system struggled on and that preserved jobs, there would have been wholesale destruction otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:33 PM

' I couldn't care a toss whether it is fair or not'

Well I suppose we have different thresholds when it comes to unfairness. At what point would you object to a practice being unfair?

Causing suffering to innocent people, kids being stuffed in a gas chamber, cruelty to dumb animals, stealing someone's life savings....

They say James Joyce came to London and splashed money about wantonly - five quid tips to taxi drivers, the best hotel suites -under the nose of the lady who funded him and was his patroness and lived very humbly. I think the British tax payer feels abit like that patroness now. Disappointed but really surprised - its the nature of the beast. The difference I suppose is that the people funding the baks extravagant bonus system are not eccentric millionaires, and I doubt if we will get a masterpiece in return.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 04:44 PM

Barclay's Eh?? The Peoples Protest - What a bloody laugh!!!

The spokesman for the "Protest" wittering on about Bank Debts being taken on by the public (Treasury actually) and how all the bonuses paid are objectionable. Pity the Prat hadn't done some research, if he had he would have had the common sense to pick a different Bank. Why?? Because Barclays did not take a single penny of the sums allocated to bail out the Banks.

I run a company and senior managagement within that company are paid performance linked bonuses. They meet their targets I will pay the bonuses and no clown outside my company is going to tell me, or convince me to do any different. After all it has nothing whatsoever to do with them, none of their business at all.

You can delegate work, you cannot delegate decisions or direction.

"try being out of a job" How do you know that I haven't? Rhetorical question YOU DON'T. In fact I have but didn't blame anyone else for it, and I went out and looked till I got another job as that was my responsibility to do that, not the Government's or anybody else's.

"How much do the rest of the Banks staff get paid in their bonuses,"

Not a clue and that is none of my business or yours. I couldn't care a toss whether it is fair or not as it does not affect me or anyone else outside of the company in question, entirely their affair. You have no "right" to praise, object or condemn the practice.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 06:40 AM

A banker, a worker and Teribus are sat around the table having coffee. There are twelve biscuits.

The banker takes eleven biscuits and leans over to Teribus and says:

"Watch that worker, he is after your biscuit".

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 06:16 AM

I agree, Alan, and "we're all in it together" is a great example of such a catchphrase. Take financing degrees, for example. It is always presented as either the taxpaxer pays or the student pays. Hello, don't businesses also benefit? Historically, businesses have funded education in many ways, such as apprenticeships, explicit training courses, sponserships and so on. But suddenly Browne simply states "businesses pay through higher salaries" and that's the end of all discussion. Even if you agree, there are are questions of whether they pay enough that way (or even too much), but no, the questions are not even to be asked. For example, it seems at least an option that businesses could pay a graduate tax based on how many graduates they employ. It may be an absurd idea, or a great one, but it is at least an option which could be discussed...isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:44 AM

Teribus.....words fail me


Look when politicians come up with a catchphrase....weapons of mass destruction, the politics of envy, the green shoots of recovery, the pound in your pocket, the big society, free collective bargaining...they don't expect intelligent people like yourself to take them seriously.

This is birdfood set out to catch the birdbrains. Sometimes they fool us. But the correct response is to shuffle about in a guilty fashion....not proudly to repeat the idiocies thirty years later.

Unless you are still actually a proud member of the 'share owning democracy'. In which case, I'm sure you look great in a kipper tie.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:35 AM

Nor is it just that, Folkiedave. Although there is inevitably a measure of carping, people are broadly comfortable with what Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, sports stars and so on get. Criticism about transfer fees is much more likely to be based on whether such fees damage the game or are beyond a club's resources, rather than whether the individual is worth it, for example. So it is not as crude as 'bash the rich'. I would say that this sort of wealth is more acceptable is because the individuals are largely seen to be earning it, not simply being entitled to it. Such a distinction seems to be difficult for Teribus to grasp.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:33 AM

How much do the rest of the Banks staff get paid in their bonuses, Teribus??????

Do they operate like Waitrose, where ALL staff are seen as partners in the company?

Methinks....not.

Greedy, Selfish Bastards, or GSB's for short, is what the Bankers are, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:22 AM

It isn't so much the politics of envy Teribus - it is the politics of have much fairer sharing of the wealth that is created. And believe me it isn't created by banks.

Remember we are all in this together, except those like bankers who apparently aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 05:18 AM

For work-related pressure - try being out of a job.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 04:56 AM

"They are also dealing day-to-day with a great deal more work related pressure in one year than most of us experience in one lifetime, or are you of the opinion that running a major financial institution in these times is just a "piece of piss" that anyone could do?"

So they 'delegate' nothing? .....

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 04:14 AM

Here ya go, Teribus...what those bonuses are now bringing....

Barclays - The People's Protest

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 02:09 AM

Oh, Teribus, you seem have decided what we think and then not thought about we say about it. I havent 'bashed the banker' at all; I haven't even said the bonus he got was excessive, and I certainly haven't said he wasn't entitled to it - in fact I've said the opposite. Our criticisms have been about the bonus culture which can be summarised as follows:

i) for a huge number of people, like Alan's porters - there is no question of bonuses. They simply don't happen.

ii) for many others, there is the possibility of bonuses, but in practice actually getting them depends upon doing something exceptional, wehich means that most of them don't get one.

iii) a relatively small proportion of people get a bonus based on how the company as a whole is doing - the performance related bonus. Even here, there is generally a modification of overall bonus based on how they as individuals have behaved.

iv) for a minute proportion of people, they do not have to demonstrate in any way that the performance of the company has anything at all to do with them to get the bonus.

And we don't think that's a very just system. No-one says life is fair, to preempt your usual response. But that is no reason just to accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 12:17 AM

"Oh dear, oh dear, there's a rich man he must have robbed somebody to acquire that wealth, let's take it away from him so that he'll then be as bloody miserable as the rest of us" - Socialism the politics of envy that can only guarantee in delivering poverty and despair.

So bonuses are only paid for actions "above and beyond" eh?? No they are not, they are performanace related and to "earn them", "deserve them", to be "entitled to them" you must have met the target and conditions set for that bonus being paid.

The "let's bash the banker, we are entitled to attack and destroy the man's property because he is a banker" is basically wrong and illegal.

When you say that the problem arose from banks lending money they did not have, they lent money on the income they were supposed to get from loans made to people who should never have been given loans in the first place. But that was done on the falsehood that in the USA the Federal Bank would step in to guarantee those loans - It didn't. The cause of the banking crisis in the UK and elsewhere round the world lay in the collapse of the US sub-prime loan market.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 04:27 PM

The other point Teribus fails to take account of is that Bonus £1,400,000 tax to be paid £700,000 is actually a myth.

Whose money do you think is stuffed in off-shore accounts? The very first thing people like this do is hire an expert tax accountant to minimise the tax they pay.

In addition these fat cats tend not to pay for things like I do. Who do you think fills the vast numbers of corporate seats at events like the Olympics?

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 02:04 PM

Well said Al.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 10:13 AM

My wife used to have all her operations done in a specialist orthopaedic hospital called harlow Wood, near Mansfield.

The porters there were really skilled in dealing with and lifting patients who were in pain. they received no bonuses, or extra payments in recognition of their sperior skills. They could not afford to eat in the subsidised staff restaurant. None of them really got what you'd call a proper holiday - just perhaps a bus excursion once or twice a year. They used to ask me if I minded them taking the puzzle magazines from my wife's trash - my wife doesn't like wordsearches - and they couldn't afford the magazines themselves.

The hospital was closed - the first Thatcherite pretext was to cater for incoming troops from the first gulf war. Eventually they just admitted they closed the place because they wanted to flog the site for 'executive' housing. The specialist skills contained in that hospital were scattered to the four corners.

Teribus - you really need to re-assess how you evaluate people's contribution to society and their relative values.

Money and its adminsitrators know no loyalty, no innate decency - it is a narrow discipline. Its focus is intense and it has no favourites. if you imagine your one and a half million is buying you anything but contempt from the man who's pocket you put it into. You are deluding yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:55 AM

Sounds like your answer to my question is "no" then, Teribus. I don't remember claiming that was the only bonus paid: in fact I pointed out that many people get bonuses, but certainly everywhere I've worked the line has been "doing your job gets you your salary. Bonuses reflect actions above and beyond your job". Sorry if that strikes you as daft but it's common for many.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:34 AM

The cause of the crash was the banks lending money they didn't have to people who couldn't afford to pay it back. It really is as simple as that.

Frankly there should be no bonuses until the total borrowed is paid back. And no losses to be set against tax. And how much of this money is on the back of setting things right that they got wrong?

Separate the investment arm of banking from the retail arm. These people do NOT gamble with their money - they gamble with our money.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Brian May
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:30 AM

Testing cookie

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Brian May
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:28 AM

For some reason my cookie didn't work.

Lizzie, that last post was from me - just being cheeky.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:26 AM

Lizzie:

How long have you had this problem with self-expression love?

I think you'd feel more liberated if you just said what you think instead of always pulling your punches . . .

;o)

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:22 AM

It's probably not 100% accurate Teribus but it always seems to be you that springs to the defence of the rich and greedy.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 09:16 AM

"The bank DID make that profit, but EVERYONE in the company contributed by their actions. So you cannot say he deserved it simly onh that figure, because it is quite possible in principle for him to sit in the office doing nothing but everyone else continue to work hard and turhn in that same profit."

Without any shadow of a doubt the daftest thing I have read in ages.

Tell me DMcG was the £1.4 million bonus paid the ONLY BONUS PAID?? - Rhetorical question of course it was not.

So "it is quite possible in principle for him to sit in the office doing nothing but everyone else continue to work hard and turn in that same profit"

Possible? yes in principle anything is possible, but probable? in this case highly improbable. To turn round vast concerns from a course upon which they are headed for ruin to turning a profit requires decisions made right at the top. Tell me DMcG what things have you been in charge of and responsible for where you have sat and done nothing and just let others do all the work? How did it pan out for you?

Am I a Banker? - No. An apologist? - No. I am just fed up with people trotting out the populist myths expecting everyone else to swallow them hook line and sinker.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 05:12 AM

I also apologise for all the typos. I shouldn't try to do this from a mobile phone!

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 05:10 AM

Sorry for the mess up on the HTML there, folks. If an elf could sort the closing underline, I'd be grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 05:09 AM

The bank made a £2,200,000,000,000 profit, when it was forecast to make a loss. You tell me did the man in charge do well or not?

You miss my point. The bank DID make that profit, but EVERYONE in the company contributed by their actions. So you cannot say he deserved it simly onh that figure, because it is quite possible in principle for him to sit in the office doing nothing but everyone else continue to work hard and turhn in that same profit.

So to decide if he deserved it, as opposed to merely being entitled to it because of what the contract said, you need to find some decision he took that contributed to the bottom lone. But also it is likely that the vast majority of his decisions were, I imagine, virtually the same as whoever was second perferred candidate for his position when he was appointed. That is, they were the decisions that any high quality CEO-alike would have made.

So I ask again, can you point to anything he did that dersrved the bonus, rather than merely be entitled to it?

As for whether I have the foggiest clue about the subject that [I am] commenting on, you seem to be missing the point everyone else is making, which I have underlined here to assist you: the difference between deserving something and being entitled to it.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 04:09 AM

Hey Teribus, you a banker or just an apologist ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 04:03 AM

"What your "Carers Allowance" is and the conditions that apply to it is something you should take up with the government, your real "beef" should be with those sponging off the system and robbing you. Not people who are in work, paying one hell of a lot in taxes."


The Bloody Bankers HAVE robbed and financially raped half the planet!

Just in case you've missed that....

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 03:51 AM

Nope, I'd not want millions, or if I had them, I'd give them away...Money holds nothing for me, Teribus...

However, the death of Honour and Integrity within my country, the rise and rise of Despicable Greed brings me down and makes me hugely angry...

As I said in another thread, this is NOT what my Father went to war for in 1939, this is what he went to war AGAINST!

IF those bankers were publicly announcing that they were giving 90% of their bonuses away to charity, and being seen to do as well, then I may have a smidgeon of respect for them, but as they are.....Fuck 'em!

Thank you...

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 03:42 AM

Pure envy Lizzie.

What your "Carers Allowance" is and the conditions that apply to it is something you should take up with the government, your real "beef" should be with those sponging off the system and robbing you. Not people who are in work, paying one hell of a lot in taxes.

So life is "not fair"!!! STOP THE PRESSES

Perhaps you should have been a banker.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 03:19 AM

"Bonus £1,400,000 tax to be paid £700,000 - More tax paid in one year than you have paid in your entire life Arthur. The guy that was paid the bonus will probably be paying on the 50% rate on his earnings as well. "


Oh! How my heart doth bleed for him!!!

Hey, Teribus, I get taxed on the Carer's Allowance I get for looking after my 96 year old ex-mother-in-law...and because I get Carer's Allowance I cannot get a job where I'm paid more than just over £100 a week, after tax.   I cannot claim Job Seeker's Allowance either, because my 'job' is seen as being a Carer..

The Carer's Allowance is a few pennies over £52 a week, and I'd get that no matter how many people I was looking after, as they only award it ONCE, not per person who needs the caring...

Cool, huh?

Strangely, no-one gives me a fucking fantastic bonus for doing this either, despite me...and thousands of other Carers around the country, saving this country MILLIONS in Care Home Fees which would come out of the WankerBankers Taxes...

So....'scuse me for not having an OUNCE of sympathy for these Greedy Bastards, won't you...

They're slimebags, in my view, and nowt else..and they don't give a shite for their customers, the ones....you know...the ones who've made them rich and wealthy.

They live for money, for profit and nothing else.

Fuck 'em all.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 02:41 AM

RBS in February 2010 shares were worth around 34.50 pence per share
RBS in February 2011 shares are worth 45.65 pence per share
At their lowest in January 2009 the share price was 10.9 pence per share. So basically for every £1,000,000 HM Treasury bought into RBS with in 2009 they would now get back £4,188,073 back (300% profit on investment in two years. And that is BAD???)

I would say that the trend is headed in the right direction.

On losses:

2008 - £24,300,000,000,000
2010 - £1,100,000,000,000

The forecast is that the Bank will return to profit this year, so again it is headed in the right direction. I would say that having worked that loss down to the extent that he has done and refused bonuses for the past two years and reduced bonuses paid by 27% then yes the head of the RBS does deserve his bonus. After all it was not his fault that the Bank ended up where it did, he came into to run things AFTER the crash.

By 2013 RBS MUST sell its insurance operations Direct Line and Churchill because of EU Regulations, this is expected to raise a great deal, again to the benefit of the Treasury who actually own 83% of the Bank (The "tax payer" does not).

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 08:51 PM

Bonus £1,400,000 tax to be paid £700,000 - More tax paid in one year than you have paid in your entire life Arthur. The guy that was paid the bonus will probably be paying on the 50% rate on his earnings as well.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 08:45 PM

Dave Hanson; DMcG; Arthur itus; Brian May. From the comments that you have made on this issue you obviously do not have the foggiest clue about the subject that you are commenting on so viciferously.

"these fat twat bankers are getting more money in one year than most of us get in one lifetime,"

They are also dealing day-to-day with a great deal more work related pressure in one year than most of us experience in one lifetime, or are you of the opinion that running a major financial institution in these times is just a "piece of piss" that anyone could do? If you do think that way then thankyou and goodnight, you are not worth talking to you are a f**kin' idiot.

"Deserved? Bonuses for salesmen are by and large based on product sold and profit made. .......So to say this guy deserved it I reckon you need to point to decisions taken that would not have been taken by anyone else in that position instead. So can you point to something he actually did that was distinguishable and gave an income to the company many times greater than the bonus?"

The bank made a £2,200,000,000,000 profit, when it was forecast to make a loss. You tell me did the man in charge do well or not? If on performance you are promised a bonus, you make that target and the bonus is withheld would you just shrug your shoulders and accept that? Somehow I very much doubt it. The size of the bonuses paid in total in Lloyds would not measure very much in comparison to the profit made, so yes they earned it, they deserved it. 40% of that profit will be appreciated by the British Government, who if the sold their stake in the Bank today at a discounted share price would make a clear profit of some £20,000,000,000,000 (Clear Profit means = that much on top of every single penny they gave the bank in the first place) Obviously if they did the same with RBS it would be one hell of a lot more.

So "bailing out the banks" made:

1. Extremely good sense

2. Will result in one hell of a windfall for the British Government

Another couple of points:

A: The "fat twat bankers" were GIVEN NOTHING. If anybody has any evidence to counter that statement please provide th details.

B: The Banks were GIVEN NOTHING. One way or another they have to repay every penny with interest.

"It's bloody disgraceful"

Waht is? That the business made a profit and those responsible were paid a bonus?

The banks are being charged "windfall" taxes, the banks are paying everything back. You the tax payer paid your taxes to the Government, the Government then gave that money to the banks to ensure that the banks did not collapse, the Government will then recoup the tax-payers money that they lent to the banks and in the cases where they actually acquired shares in the banks they will get the profit on the sale of shares. The Government will make a profit regardless. The minute you pay your taxes to the Government the money ceases to be "yours".

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Brian May
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 05:58 PM

I wonder what they'd say if I said I wanted some of that money - apparently it's ours after all - everyone says it's the taxpayers' money. I'm a taxpayer, ergo it's my money.

I wasn't aware that I had a choice in the matter.

It's interesting, the line we keep being fed is : If we don't pay these bonuses, then we'll lose the most talented bankers.

Would these be the same bankers that got us into this mess in the first place, or are they the replacements?

Presumably if they're the same - why have they still got a job? The also don't deserve a bonus when the rest of us are suffering to pay all this money back.

If they are replacements, then let them walk and more replacements will be found - if that is what happened before. Why should they win both ways?

And . . . pray tell me, where all these 'hotshots' are going - are there that many jobs out there?

Let 'em go.

Lots of industries get rid of highly paid staff and replace them with lower paid ones - why should banking be any different? Seems to me the 'old-guard' hotshots didn't to too well, why would replacement staff do anything worse?

It would appear that if we own 83% of the bank then we should get some of the profits or bonuses . . . ah, but we don't own it do we? We just have to pay for the **** ups.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 12:13 PM

It's bloody disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 12:09 PM

Deserved? Bonuses for salesmen are by and large based on product sold and profit made. Ditto traders and so forth. So to say this guy deserved it I reckon you need to point to decisions taken that would not have been taken by anyone else in that position instead. So can you point to something he actually did that was distinguishable and gave an income to the company many times greater than the bonus?

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:39 AM

And don't forget what posh Dave told us, we're all in it together, now don't you all feel better about it ? these fat twat bankers are getting more money in one year than most of us get in one lifetime, yeah we're all in it together Dave.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:20 AM

Statement 1:

"IDGAF what the fat twat's contract says. If they make a loss, bonuses shouldn't be given."

Statement 2:

"Lloyds made a 2.2.bn profit and the fat twat there got a bonus of 1.4million."

So they made a Profit and you are still carping on about it?? Does envy enter into the picture at all here? Because "logic" seems to have left by the back door ages ago.

What your State Pension represents as a percentage of his Bonus (obviously performance related and deserved) is totally irrelevant. His bonus as a percentage of what profit he made the bank is minute, your pension as a percentage of your final years earnings will be much higher.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:01 AM

It's an aweful lot of money if you compare it to my State Pension.

Now let me see £6,240 versus £1,400,000. My pension equates to 0.4% of his bonus, which I assume is a yearly bonus.

Don't talk to me about fat twat bankers :-( grrrrrrr

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 02:54 AM

Just remember one thing, the crisis that hit the financial sector emanated from the United States of America. The President and administration responsible was William Jefferson Clinton who forced US Mortgage Brokers Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae into brokeraging mortgages for people who could only ever be desribed as being "High Risk". The banks who actually had to lend this money were hoodwinked into believing that the US Federal Bank would guarantee these loans, Neither the President, his administration, Freddie Mac or Fanny Mae did anything to clarify this point and correct this misunderstanding.

The 2000 Election saw a new Presidententer the White House who had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this set up, so when these high risk debtors start defaulting and the banks start to get nervous they start applying to the Federal Bank, who tell them thay have not got a clue about any guarantees. The US banks then start off-loading their debts by selling them on, this time they peddle the lie about Fedral Bank Guarantees. Banks, insurance companies, investment and pension funds all over the world buy into it. Then comes the crash.

When it did strike GWB moves to intervene, but unfortunately for him it is election year and the closing stages of the election itself. He asks for $700 million in Novemebr but Barak Obama and the Democrats want to make some political capital out of it and delay the intervention, and the crisis deepens. Barak Obama wins the 2008 election but cannot intervene until 19th January at the earliest. If they say that a week is a long time in politics it is a f**king eternity in finance. Barak Obama finally does step in, in his usual "grandstanding style" only now it is $834 million and the slide has started. Had the Fed stepped in in November then the fall might have been arrested and the effects a lot less dramatic.

So Arthur;

"Lloyds made a 2.2.bn profit and the fat twat there got a bonus of 1.4million. How much FFS."

The bank, under this fat twat's direction, makes a profit of £2,200,000,000,000 (I take it that it is a UK billion, 12 zeros, we are talking about here?) and "the fat twat" gets a bonus of £1,400,000 and this astounds you, work out that bonus as a percentage of the profit he made for the bank (It is minute), then tell me if the bank was even forecast to make a profit at all.

"I would guess that the majority of shares in most cases are owned by fat twat wealthy business men."

In the case of RBS 83% of the shares are owned by the British Government not "fat twat wealthy business men". In the case of Lloyds it is around 40% of the shares owned by the British Government. Most shares are in fact owned by Insurance Companies, Investment Funds and Pension Funds. In its hey-day one of the largest players on the LSE was the NUM Pension Fund - So much for "fat twat wealthy businessmen" a hell of a lot of whom owe their fortunes to their own hard work, difficult concept for a "socialist" to grasp I know but there you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 01:18 AM

Drift ~~ but remember that Canute was only pretending to order the sea back, thus proving to his flattering courtiers that he could NOT hold back the tide so he was not as all-powerful as they persisted in asserting. As my late wife wrote in one of her novels, "History has given Canute the wrong footnote".

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 05:59 AM

Ah, 20/20 hindsight eh?

Vilifying bankers is popular as a sport and with some justification.

However, we can either keep castigating them for lack of tact and social skills until we sink as a country or we can accept that a coin has two sides.

As they got us in the mess in the first place, it occurs to me that such power also means only they can get us out again.

Brown did try for international consensus in curbing bank and multinational threats by global rules, but didn't manage it. Mind you, at least he tried.

Intervention by the government before the banks needed it doesn't sound an intelligent argument to me. Some of the banks, Barclays for instance, didn't need it at all.

Unless the intervention you are talking about is state control per se, in which case forget it. Marx & co never predicted the planet to be able to work as one in terms of trade, and never looked further than a nation state and its needs.

Internet, cheap flights and the need for trade to feed your population means Adam Smith won that particular round, leaving Carl Marx sagging on the ropes.

I don't like the bonuses either and find them irresponsible, but it would be more irresponsible of the government if banks and multinationals left and based themselves elsewhere.

There's a reason why they are in London and not Brussels, and it isn't just the mayo poured onto chips in all the ruddy cafes......

Oh, and we get 50% + of the big bonuses.

Not to mention the rest ploughing into local economies.

Lesson 101 Trade. it doesn't have to be beautiful to be effective.

Mind you, if the government felt they had to support public sector in the same way they feel they have to support bankers, we might have a better economy anyway. We need people to spend in order to afford a social program. Something Osborne is fighting against, and all the time looking rather like King Canute.

Subject: RE: BS: RBS Loss and Boss who gets a bonus UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 05:45 AM

IDGAF what the fat twat's contract says. If they make a loss, bonuses shouldn't be given.

As for stocks and shares, they are no indication of a company doing well. They are so volatile and once again, I would guess that the majority of shares in most cases are owned by fat twat wealthy business men.

Lloyds made a 2.2.bn profit and the fat twat there got a bonus of 1.4million. How much FFS.