BS: Mad march in London

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,ruth astray
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

Guest below: me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

Here's a pretty enlightened view on why the cuts won't work - and why they're not even meant to:

Johann Hari on the economics of fiscal thrift


These cuts are ideological. They are a deliberate dismantling of the welfare state.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM

If we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism nor monarchism - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#105

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM

One point must be underlined. Rich people generally do not create jobs unless that are forced to. Reagan's "Trickle down" theory doesn't demonstrably work.

The only way that people will have a living wage is if they demand it. This means protesting arbitrary and false austerity programs.

Reverse Robin Hood is not the answer.

People standing up for peace with justice, political defiance, collective will and
demonstrations of that will are.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM

Fred,any more word on that stay order against the closure of that home you are in ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:46 AM

Spleen, I agree absolutely but there's no point in telling Richie. As far as he's concerned, everyone who was there on Saturday is tarred with the doctrine of equal responsibility. Therefore, those of who wanted a peaceful march have no right to hold one because of a few nutters who weren't even connected with the aims of the demonstration. I'm not sure whether his attitude is more reminiscent of an ostrich with its head in the sand, or somebody pissing into the wind.

Imagine the outcry if the authorities closed every pub in the land because a handful of people, who couldn't hold their drink, wrecked everything in sight. Or how about if the authorities banned football because of the violent thuggery of a tiny minority of hooligans.

I wonder what he'd say if those scenes on Saturday were not of the centre of London, but of protests in any one of a half a dozen Arab countries. Yeahh I know. But this government wasn't elected either.

And by the way, of the 200 and odd arrests, 138, or knocking on for 3/4, were charged with nothing more than aggravated trespass. IE., for peacefully protesting in Fortnum and Mason's. Weepable ennit?

But as I said, there's no use telling Richie. Our betters have spoken, and all we can honourably do in response is to touch the forelock and bend the knee. Of course we'll also need to suffer the ignominy of the dole, of having our governmental services shut down, of seeing our children begin their working careers with £27,000 of debt round their necks, and of seeing our police so depleted that they won't be able to control the riots that will result.

Citizens arrests, my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:45 AM

The Black Bloc represented a tiny proportion of the people protesting on Saturday - and as usual they hijacked the event for their own purposes and ended up getting a disproportionate amount of coverage for their infantile militant liberal agenda. They are the ultimate elitists - it's not about mass action and popular protest but about themselves as the vanguard "taking on" the state and the police on "our" behalf (the politics of "Look at me! Look at me! Aren't I wadical!"). And its all wrapped up in muddled political thinking that half of them probably couldn't articulate anyway (including those with a middle class upbringing and university degrees - and unless the anarchist movement has changed there are plenty of those). I suspect they are riddle with provocateurs, too...

When I was involved in anarchist politics, we had very little time for the precursors of this lot - but it seems that these days they are the mainstream in the anarchist movement. Even Freedom Newspaper is celebrating a bunch of idiot kids trashing a few windows as if its a major political coup. Tragic, really. And don't get me started on Class War, Lizzie...

And I think it's important to differentiate between the non-violent direct action of UK Uncut(which is reminiscent of the old Peace News crew) and the nihilists of the Black Bloc.

In the meantime, isn't it heartening to see nearly half a million people out on the streets telling the government exactly what they think of their cuts? Of course there's an alternative - but it can't just be about tinkering around on the margins and deciding how quickly or slowly cuts are imposed. It has to be around a whole set of conversations about what sort of society we actually want to live in. Including, as Shimrod points out, the green angle.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

Richie, old chap, I think you missed the irony in Jim's statement :)

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

So true Jim, no one wants to see mass murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:48 AM

Certainly better than the un-free states that use water-cannon, helicopters and mass-murder to suppress opposition Rich
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:54 AM

Indeed Jim, I imagine the freestate is better.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:38 AM

"Sadly it looks like this thread is back to tin hats and trenches."
Just as long as it doesn't go back to water cannon and helicopters, eh Richie!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:12 AM

So despite the hoo ha with the battenburg and the jar of olives, it all went ok. As an armchair observer I don't think the police could have handled it any other way. It probably avoided even more casualties than if they had gone in in a gunho fashion so they are damned if they do and damned if they don't as I see it but I although I was unable to make it to the Park myself I was there in spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:32 AM

TheSilentOne doesn't like Battenburg... Too rich.

:~)

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:25 PM

Great Penny, will check with "The Quiet One" first, something tells me he swiped a Battenberg cake in Fortnum's.

Correct me if I am wrong, but did a few bangers not go off inside David Icke's head a while back ?

As I recall, he got the backs up of a few Canadain Jews when he said "The reptilians were the original authors of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a 1903 Russian forgery purporting to be a plan by the Jewish people to achieve world domination."

Canada wasn't going to let him into the country. His books were removed from the shelves of Indigo Books, a Canadian chain, after protests from the Canadian Jewish Congress.

Didn't he talk to God or something too ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:58 PM

I do indeed - unfortunately from Lidl, not Fortnum's - couldn't get in at the time I was there.

Has anyone any other reports than that from the Icke site about provocative stuff from the police? I didn't see anything like that at the time I was there.

When bangers went off near the Black Bloc early on, none of the police looked at all interested, and didn't even seem to be checking on their radios. At Fortnum's, later, there were three drivers looking unhappy in surrounded empty vans. Then the riot cohort arrived, but I didn't see them doing anything I would have wanted to photograph and send to the papers.

I assume that there was lack of communication between the police inside Fortnum's and the riot lot.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:48 PM

Thanks Penny, have you any cake in the house ? sorry, just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:47 PM

Ah I know that VT, just trying to bring a little humour into a discussion that was (Thanks to Will Fly )was going so well then took a nose dive late this afternoon.

Hope your aches and pains have subsided, "no pain no gain" as they say. Admire you for your perseverance and commitment.

Sadly it looks like this thread is back to tin hats and trenches.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:45 PM

I made that last post without reading all the thread, which revealed another side to Richie. I don't want to stir things up again.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:42 PM

Guess I should clarify that I was a southern baptist at the time, meaning not all that different as far as conviction of belief goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:36 PM

Actually Richie, I would probably offer you a seat on the sofa (more comfortable) and a slice of cake and cup of tea or coffee (your choice) and invite you to friendly discussion.

I am the woman who used to frighten Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter Day Saints with my Bible (chock full of book markers and notes). After one visit, I would watch them avoid my house and warn others against me.

:~)

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:32 PM

500 000 marching. 201 involved in affray. I was there, and I saw something happening outside Fortnum's while most people were in the Park, and a few of the Black Block earlier. (And Richard Stilgoe also commente don how odd it is how well organised the anarchists are.) I did not see as many as 200. I saw very many more perfectly ordinary people who were not involved in violence - indeed those near the Black Block actively put space between them.

Richie, you were not there and have no justification for stating, without any evidence, that the violence was not from a small minority. Even your beloved government accepts that it was only a few.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

Here is
video inside Fortnum & Masons showing that police inside were helpful and behaved appropriately and assisted with orderly departure. Stated that the protesters were free to leave.

But the police in riot gear outside immediately kettled the UnCut protesters as they left the shop and arrested them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:27 PM

Well there you have it. If I decided to knock your door, say hello friend,walk past you and sit down in protest on your living room floor because you posted here that only 60 people broke windows, when I felt a few more than that were involved, and maybe ask you to pass me down a slice of that sponge cake sitting on the table that the wife knocked up last night, what would you do ?

Call the police and ask them to put on woolen gloves and escort me to the street and keep an eye on them in case one of them shouted and pointed down the street "here's a rat" to distract you, them put his knee in my balls ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:43 PM

The more detailed coverage I see of Saturday's events the clearer it becomes that the police are not as innocent of blame as the media coverage on the day would have had us believe. For a start, the 138 people occupying Fortum and Mason's were congratulated on their behaviour INSIDE the building by the police, and were held there, they were told, "for their own safety". The police assured them they would not be arrested (video footage confirms all this). But OUTSIDE the riot police ignored that and arrested them for aggravated trespass. Take that number away from the 200 or so arrested, and you are left with 60+ who MAY have been arrested for violence.

Some other reports indicate that the violence in Trafalgar Square may have been initiated by police action. I am beginning to realise it was naive to think the old days of police agents provocateur had gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:12 PM

if black bloc have balls then they shouldn't be shadowing other orgs like ukuncut in order to undertake their own more radical action.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:59 PM

The appearance of extremists on these demonstrations inevitably draw the mice out of their holes with squeaks of "rentamob", all anxious to persuade us that we - the people, should be prepared to pick up the tab for the crisis created by the greed of boardroom fatcats, avaricious bankers and corrupt and incompetent conservative (with a small c) govermnents of various shades of blue.
I'm not surprised to see one such egger-offer (who knows who he is, but is probably too shy to step into the limelight) who previously proposed that the police suppressing the student demonstrations should have used water cannons, helicopters, and if that didn't produce the desired result, resort to the tactics employed by South American mass-murderers - how many did Mrs Thatcher's friend Pinochet notch up??
I had a close-up education of the origins of some of these 'extremists' back in 1968 on the Grosvenor Square antiViet-Nam War demo.
A few of us had managed to make our way to near the front of the US Embassy when we were joined by a couple of young men who began tearing off the placards from their poles and using them as lances to throw into the police human-chain. The police rushed us and we were scattered, but managed to re-form a couple of minutes later. By then the banner-throwing Spartans had crossed over to the other side and had joined the police cordon - an instant Road-to-Damascus coversion, we presumed!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:52 PM

acke, unless you are for the violent imposition of radical system change military coup stylee, then you will have to bide your time until the people actually desire such change. Meanwhile, the more immediate goal of toppling this coelition looks like it might have potential.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

"UK Uncut really offers an alternative," said Anna Mason, 15, from Liverpool, as she showed me her home-made sign against tax evasion. "We are peaceful, making a point, and haven't broken anything." While groups such as Black Bloc were smashing windows on Oxford Street, UK Uncut members were reading books in groups on the floor and tucking into home-made sandwiches."

Give me fuckin' strength!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:32 PM

The "credit crunch" was not an unhappy accident, the deregulation which preceeded it was encouraged by successive governments, in search of ever increasing growth in the economy....a necessity for capitalism to survive......one last roll of the dice, and we all know who the losers were.....not the banks, not the capitalist financial wisards, but you and me......Mr and Mrs Joe Public, and their children and grand children.

We are now at the start of a downward spiral to "Third World" status.
That would be acceptable, if a little hard on the softies which capitalism bred in the good times, but unfortunately there are plenty of new faces to sit at the top table and continue the environmental abuse which we started in the glory days of "Empire"

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,ruth astray
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:29 PM

Oh - someone's just posted this on my Facebook, which gives some insight into what was happening inside, separate from the anarchist action:

A view from inside the UK Uncut occupation of Fortnum's

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:24 PM

Richie, this is an interesting video about how the media constantly chooses to report the bad things at demonstrations, protests, etc..rather than focussing on the good points....

It gives the reasons behind it too, how controlled the media now is...Well worth a look when you get a moment.

Lizzie

Globalisation and The Media - Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,ruth astray
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:19 PM

Guest below: me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:19 PM

200

Yesterday afternoon, Will Fly wrote one of the most moving and thought provoking posts I ever read on this site. It made a lot of posters sit back and think, It certainly did with me anyway. I felt Will Fly's post was a turning point in this debate.

It would appear others cared not to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:19 PM

"Unlike everybody else (I think) in this discussion, I saw almost the entire march from a very good vantage point. I do not recall seeing anything more than a tiny number of anarchists taking part in the march. Yes, there were a lot more occupying Trafalgar Square, and I've no doubt they were the ones who caused the trouble after the rest of us had gone home. But they were not a part of what even the police and the home secretary agreed was a well organised, peaceful and well behaved march."

We marched down Picadilly at approximately 1:30pm. We went past all the shops later targeted, including Fortnums. The march remained peaceful and good natured.

The people we saw later in the action outside Fortnums were Black Bloc anarchists. They emerged from the crowd with soundsystems on bikes. The mood palpably changed. That does NOT mean that the UK Uncut occupiers inside were Black Bloc.

Of the hundreds of thousands of people we saw, the militant anarchists were around 100 people, at a guess. They were entirely separate from the peaceful protest, and had their own agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM

"It might be reassuring to the general public if those who organised such events appointed marshals or Stewarts and encouraged them to make citizens arrests when they see people pushing iron bars through windows or throwing paint bombs at policemen"

Yeah, right - that's going to happen. What pompous drivel. Anyone striding up to some nutter intent on causing trouble and attempting a citizen's arrest will probably get a smack in the face.

At least be realistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:43 PM

I recommend Robert Peston's "Who Owns Britain" (2008). He is no leftie, but he does illustrate how Blair and Brown sucked up to the City and big business interests during their time in government. Blair allowed the gap between rich and poor to continue to widen during his premiership.

Peston also deals well with the beginning of the credit crunch, the mistakes of the banks and the machinations of the hedge funds.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:37 PM

'Class War' Facebook page ....where they talk about the next stop being the Royal Wedding..


Taken from the Forum page of their main site, their FB thread:

>>>Nov 08, 2010; 08:46pmRe: Class War On Facebook Reply | Threaded |
      
Not a good idea comrades to link any current, ongoing or any future operations on Facebook, better to use it as an archive of previous actions only.

We do not discuss on Facebook any future meetings or actions, this will be done using a second phone and all are expected to optain one which isn't registered with your name or address a.s.a.p. We'll then link up those numbers via those we know personally and so we keep the plod guessing and never knowing. <<<<<

'Class War' - Main Site

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: pdq
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM

A few posts back, "andrew e" gave a link to the website of David Icke.

I heard an interview of the man and followed that up with a trip to his site. He blames everything wrong in the world on an invisible group of elitist led by a Zionist conspiracy. The guy makes some sense when you first hear him, but he just another impediment to the Truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:19 PM

Christ Fred, I hope that post makes more sense to you than it does to me.

Everyone knew people would cause criminal damage at that gathering on Saturday. I am not prepared to play ping pong about facts and figures, we covered that subject for two days.

It might be reassuring to the general public if those who organised such events appointed marshals or Stewarts and encouraged them to make citizens arrests when they see people pushing iron bars through windows or throwing paint bombs at policemen. It is not enough to say, "they were not with us" that may well be true, but the organisers of this event must have known when you call people onto the streets as they did, criminal damage was inevitable.

So that's my view on it, I feel it is reasonable, but go ahead, line up and pull holes in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:03 PM

I was just about to reply to Richie Black's comments about 200 arrests, when I saw SPB's comments. To which amen.

Unlike everybody else (I think) in this discussion, I saw almost the entire march from a very good vantage point. I do not recall seeing anything more than a tiny number of anarchists taking part in the march. Yes, there were a lot more occupying Trafalgar Square, and I've no doubt they were the ones who caused the trouble after the rest of us had gone home. But they were not a part of what even the police and the home secretary agreed was a well organised, peaceful and well behaved march.

BTW., it might serve RB and one or two others to reflect that there are different shades of anarchism, just as there are different shades of socialism and conservatism. Not everyone who carries a black flag supports wanton violence. Come to that, a large proportion of those 200 arrests were of people supporting UK Uncut protests. Again, something entirely separate from the march.

I know very little about UK Uncut, but I do know that it is not an anarchist organisation. Indeed, as far as I can see, it is organised around the principle of non-violent direct action. Something which Ghandi, Bertrand Russell and other great pacifists would have approved.

If that is so, then I for one support their actions on Saturday, and observe that the number of arrests of violent nutters was far less than 200.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:49 PM

I seem to recall the 'Class War' graffiti going up last night, on the news, someone was scrawling it on a door, or a wall....

The 'Class War' bunch are a nasty group...my ex-husband got their leaflets banned from being carried by The Royal Mail, many years back now, as they were filled with vitriol.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

I think what was meant is that they (the masked thugs) had their own agenda and therefore were not part of the march as it was intended by the TUC.

They were actually as much anti march as they are anti government, anti property, etc.

I love see the reasoned discussion here. These discoveries of common ground.

Gives me hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:24 PM

No way were they part of the march, we saw very rowdy groups of sludge dressed in black, carrying black flags, wearing scarves around their faces and of course with hoods up.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM

.04 of 1% of those who attended, under the assumption that they were part of the organised march which I very much doubt, more likely 'organised' extremists who used the event as an excuse to cause trouble, for their own purposes and planned well in advance of the day.

99.96% engaged in non-violent protest - it was well organised, with proper stewarding, police consultation and involvement.

So yes, in proportion to the event/day, they were just a handful.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM

Fred, over 200 of those in attendance were arrested for assault and criminal damage on Saturday how can you define that as " handful of nutters." Big handful would you not agree ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 11:38 AM

It seems like the 'bend over and be shafted like good little proles' squad are in full cry here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 11:27 AM

Richie Black. "Oswald Mosley left the Labour Party in 1931 to form the party that ultimately became the British Union of Fascists"

You seem to have (conveniently?) forgotten that Mosley was originally a member of the Conservative Party and the tory member for Harrow, before leaving the Conservatives, and establishing himself as an independent, before then joining the Labour Party, eventually becoming the member for Smethwick.

A wayward career by any standards, but I certainly wouldn't judge the entire Conservative Party by him; just as I am sure you wouldn't judge the 1/2 million marchers, who protested against the cuts on Saturday, by the handful of nutters who appear to have thought they were at a Bullingdon Club bunfight.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 11:12 AM

Beautiful islands, but there is a serious crime problem. Hotel staff give the best advice where NOT to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 11:03 AM

I wish for this....

The People's Democracy of Trinidad & Tobago