Corr: A Wee Deoch an Doris/A Wee Docht and Doris

Subject: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:48 AM

A number of times I have heard a Scottish song with the title, or a reference to 'a wee doch and doris'. Dont even know if I've got the spelling right but can anyone out there in Mudcat land explain to me what this phrase means?

Most grateful

Andy

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:54 AM

Hi Andy - sounds a bit like a phrase used in Irish - so maybe also in Scots Gaelic? - which means the equivalent of "one for the road"

Literally a drink for the door - Deoch an dorais.

Till any one knows better, anyway!!

Slán!
Dáithí

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: RunrigFan
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:40 AM

wee deoch an dorus - meaning a drink at the door

irish according to google - deoch beag ag an doras

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:02 AM

The irish version posted above just means a small drink at the door all in Gaelic whereas the first version mixes 'English', wee, with the Gaelic.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: clueless don
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:37 AM

Well known Scots song, sung e.g. by Harry Lauder.

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: RunrigFan
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:43 AM

It's also known as Just a little bit of Deoch an' dorus

Subject: Lyr Add: A WEE DEOCH-AN-DORIS (Harry Lauder)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 10:49 AM

Wee - English?? Even with the quote marks round it, it's Scots surely! (Scots is now recognised in this week's census - you have to say whether you can read write, speak or understand - English, SCOTS, and/or Gaelic.)
Enjoy this! Sir Harry Lauder himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X_3N6pcXBw
and see for lyrics:
http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_deoch.htm

---

Lyrics copy-pasted from rampantscotland.com - Joe Offer

A convivial song from Sir Harry Lauder. Only a real Scot can properly get his tongue (and his throat) round "It's a braw bricht moonlicht nicht."

WEE DEOCH AN DORIS
(Gerald Grafton and Sir Harry Lauder)

There's a good old Scottish custom that has stood the test o'time,
It's a custom that's been carried out in every land and clime.
When brother Scots are gathered, it's aye the usual thing,
Just before we say good night, we fill our cups and sing...

Chorus
Just a wee deoch an doris, just a wee drop, that's all.
Just a wee deoch an doris afore ye gang awa.
There's a wee wifie waitin' in a wee but an ben.
If you can say, "It's a braw bricht moonlicht nicht",
Then yer a'richt, ye ken.

Now I like a man that is a man; a man that's straight and fair.
The kind of man that will and can, in all things do his share.
Och, I like a man a jolly man, the kind of man, you know,
The chap that slaps your back and says, "Jock, just before ye go..."

Chorus

Meaning of unusual words:
deoch an doris=Gaelic for a drink at the door, a last (?) farewell drink
aye=always
but and ben=a two-roomed cottage
ken=know

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: brezhnev
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM

and enjoy harry lauder's deoch and dorus sampled by the late great martyn bennett here

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:24 PM

If ye can say "it's a braw bricht moonlicht nicht then yir aw richt ye ken"

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:30 PM

"Scots is now recognised in this week's census - you have to say whether you can read write, speak or understand - English, SCOTS, and/or Gaelic"

Huh! Mine had a blank where they didn't ask me if I could speak Welsh, let alone Scots, Gaelic or Irish.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: RunrigFan
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:23 AM

wee is scottish but many people say wee and they not Scottis ;)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM

Only because they've copied us wee Scots! (Whit kind o' a Runrig fan are ye tae say that onyhoo?)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: RunrigFan
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:38 PM

Does it matter?

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: RunrigFan
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:48 PM

And wee means small

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 09:11 AM

One (drink) for the road, a nightcap

Subject: Lyr Add: A WEE DEOCH-AN-DORIS (Harry Lauder)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:08 PM

The sheet music can be seen at The Maine Music Box; also at The Lester S. Levy Collection of Sheet Music (Click for a PDF.):

[I have made a few spelling and punctuation corrections (e.g. "ye're" for "yer") but I am reporting the title exactly as I find it.]


A WEE DEOCH-AN-DORIS [=title as it appears on cover]
A WEE DEOCH-AND-DORIS [=title as it appears on the first page of music]
(Written by Gerald Grafton and Harry Lauder, composed & sung by Harry Lauder)
New York: T. B. Harms & Francis Day & Hunter, ©1911

1. There's a good old Scottish custom that has stood the test of time.
It's a custom that's been carried out in ev'ry land and clime.
Where brother Scots foregather, it's aye the usual thing,
For just before they say "Good nicht," they fill their cups and sing:
.
CHORUS: Just a wee deoch-an-doris, just a wee yin, that's a'.
Just a wee deoch-an-doris before we gang awa'.
There's a wee wifie waitin' in a wee but-an-ben.
If you can say, "It's a braw bricht moonlicht nicht," ye're a' richt, ye ken.

2. I like a man that is a man, a man that's straight and fair,
A sort of man that will and can in all things do his share.
I like a man, a jolly man, the sort o' man, ye know,
The chap that slaps yer back and says, "Mon Jock, before we go—" CHORUS

3. I'll invite ye a' some other nicht, to come and bring yer wives,
And I'll guarantee ye'll have the grandest nicht in all yer lives.
I'll have the bagpipes skirling. We'll make the rafters ring,
And when ye're tired and sleepy, why I'll wake ye up an' sing: CHORUS

Subject: RE: Origins: A Wee Deoch-an-Doris (Harry Lauder)
From: clueless don
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:00 AM

Jim Dixon, I find it interesting that your transcription says "... just a wee yin ..." instead of a wee drop. I'm not doubting that you copied it as it was written, but when I've heard recordings of Harry Lauder singing the song, he sang "drop".

Don

Subject: RE: Origins: A Wee Deoch-an-Doris (Harry Lauder)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 10:59 AM

Clueless: You're right. Also, in the last line of verse 1, he sings "For just before we say "good night," we fill our cups and sing...." And in the recording I've heard, he doesn't sing verse 3 at all. I don't know whether he made more than one recording of this song.

I wish someone who is fluent in Scots Gaelic would comment on the spelling of the title. I suspect "an" is correct and "and" is wrong, but I'd like to hear from someone who really knows. I've also seen the words "deoch" and "doris" spelled differently.

I'd also like to know: Is it common in Scotland for non-Gaelic speakers to use occasional words and phrases from Gaelic? Was the phrase "deoch-an-doris" well known before the song became popular?

Subject: RE: Origins: A Wee Deoch-an-Doris (Harry Lauder)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 08:08 AM

Several alternatives, as shown here:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deoch_an_dorais#Scottish_Gaelic

I'm not a Gaelic speaker, but did wrestle with it trying to learn it for a while, and it's true that there are regional variations in different parts of Scottish Gaeldom.

And yes, there are quite a lot of words used in/by Scots which have a Gaelic origin (tho' the person speaking may not know it!), just as you'll hear Gaelic speakers throw in "English" or Scots words when there is no original Gaelic word for what they are saying. (As the French talk about le weekend!)

Subject: Lyr Req: A Wee Docht and Doris
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:22 PM

I'm wondering if we have correct lyrics on this one:

Thread #6051   Message #35801
Posted By: Ralph Butts
24-Aug-98 - 10:27 AM
Thread Name: Parting songs
Subject: Lyr Add: A WEE DEOCH-AN-DORIS^^^
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this one (from the International Lyrics Server)....Tiger

A WEE DEOCH-AN-DORIS
(Harry Lauder)
1. There's a good old Scottish custom that has stood the test o' time,
It's a custom that's been carried out in every land and clime,
Where brother Scots forgather, it's aye the usual thing,
Just before we say goodnicht, we fill our cups and sing:

CHORUS: Just a wee deoch-an-doris, just a wee drap, that's a'
Just a wee deoch-an-doris, before we gang awa'
There's a wee wifie waiting in a wee but-an-ben
If you can say, "It's a braw bricht moonlicht nicht," well, you're all richt, ye ken.

2. I like a man that is a man, a man that's straight and fair,
A sort o' man who will and can in all things do his share.
I like a man, a jolly man, the sort o' man you know,
The kind of chap that slaps your back and says, "Man, Jock, before you go--".

CHORUS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Wee Docht and Doris
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:24 PM

The version from the Digital Tradition:

A WEE DOCHT AND DORIS
(Popularized, at least, by Harry Lauder)

There's a good old Scottish custom
that has stood the test of time
Its a custom that's been carried out
in every land and clime
Wherever Scots forgather
its aye the usual thing
Just before we say goodnight,
we raise our cups and sing

Just a wee docht and doris,
just a wee dram that's a'
Just a wee docht and doris,
before we gang awa'
There's a wee wife awaiting
in a wee butt and ben
If you can say its a braw bricht
moon licht nicht
Well you're all right, you ken.

I like a man, that is a man,
a man that's straight and fair
A sort of man who will and can,
in all things do his share
I like a man, a jolly man,
the sort of man you know
The kind of chap that slaps your back
and says "before you go".

&c

There is a star whose beaming ray
is shed on every clime
It shines by night, it shines by day,
and ne'er grows dim wi' time
It rose upon the banks o' Ayr,
it shone on Doons clear stream
A hundred years are gane and mair,
yet brighter grows its beam

&c

filename[ DOCHDORS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Wee Docht and Doris
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:26 PM

The e-mail that started me on this:

Hi joe !!! fyi,, a wee docht and doris , I was born in Scotland ,, and all these people are trying to read too much into the translation ???? here goes from a scot ,,,,

Just a little drink at the door ... just a little one , that's all
Just a little drink at the door , before you go away
There's a little wife waiting , in the little cottage
If you can see its a nice bright moonlight night
Then you are alright ,,, you know ????
Please pass this on to all the people who are so anal about translation to the literal degree ???? thank you . Di

I was wondering if there was a discussion I missed that triggered this e-mail, and I didn't find a thread on this song. Is there one?

-Joe-

Subject: Lyr Add: A WEE DEOCH-AN-DORIS (Harry Lauder)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:26 PM

Wee Deoch an Doris

    There's a good old Scottish custom that has stood the test o'time,
    It's a custom that's been carried out in every land and clime.
    When brother Scots are gathered, it's aye the usual thing,
    Just before we say good night, we fill our cups and sing...

    Chorus
    Just a wee deoch an doris, just a wee drop, that's all.
    Just a wee deoch an doris afore ye gang awa.
    There's a wee wifie waitin' in a wee but an ben.
    If you can say, "It's a braw bricht moonlicht nicht",
    Then yer a'richt, ye ken.

    Now I like a man that is a man; a man that's straight and fair.
    The kind of man that will and can, in all things do his share.
    Och, I like a man a jolly man, the kind of man, you know,
    The chap that slaps your back and says, "Jock, just before ye go..."

    Chorus

    Meaning of unusual words:
    deoch an doris=Gaelic for a drink at the door, a last (?) farewell drink
    aye=always
    but and ben=a two-roomed cottage (click)
    ken=know

Subject: DT Corr: A Wee Deoch an Doris (Harry Lauder)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:47 PM

Thanks, John. I'm more comfortable with the spelling on your post - I take it you got the lyrics from this Website.
There's a YouTube video here (click) - I think that's Lauder singing...
The video begins with a photo of the sheet music. It gives the title of the song as A WEE DEOCH-AN-DORIS, written by Gerald Grafton and Harry Lauder, composed and performed by Harry Lauder.
I wonder what's the source of the lyrics in the third verse in the DT version. It's not in the Harry Lauder recordings I found, but you will find it at ingeb.org and in the Mudcat Forum in a song about Robert Burns.

-Joe-

---

Listening to a couple of Harry Lauder recordings, there are a few words I hear differently. Here's my proposed text for the corrected version I'd like to submit to the Digital Tradition. I put questioned text in bold. I'll change this test as people suggest changes. Anybody have a publication date? Anybody have access to sheet music?

A WEE DEOCH-AN-DORIS
(Harry Lauder and Gerald Grafton)

    There's a good old Scottish custom that has stood the test o'time,
    It's a custom that's been carried out in every land and clime.
    Where brother Scots are gathered (foregather??), it's aye the usual thing,
    Just before we say good night, we fill our cups and sing...

    CHORUS
    Just a wee deoch an doris, just a wee drop, that's all.
    Just a wee deoch an doris before we gang awa.
    There's a wee wifie waitin' in a wee but an ben.
    If you can say, "It's a braw bricht moonlicht nicht",
    Well yer a'richt, ye ken.

    Now I like a man that is a man; a man that's straight and fair.
    The sort of man that will and can, in all things do his share.
    Och, I like a man a jolly man, the sort of man, you know,
    The chap who slaps your back and says, ""(Man, just?) (Man, Jock), before ye go..."

    CHORUS

    Meaning of unusual words:
    deoch an doris=Gaelic for a drink at the door, a farewell drink
    aye=always
    but and ben=a two-roomed cottage
    ken=know

Subject: DT Correction: A Wee Deoch an Doris
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:50 PM

I found sheet music here (click).

-Joe-

---

A WEE DEOCH-AN-DORIS
(Harry Lauder and Gerald Grafton)

There's a good old Scottish custom that has stood the test of time.
It's a custom that's been carried out in every land and clime.
Where brother Scots foregather, it's aye the usual thing.
For just before they say, "Good Nicht," they fill their cups and sing...

    CHORUS
    Just a wee Deoch-an'-Doris, a wee drap, that's a'.
    A wee Deoch-an'-Doris before we gang awa'.
    There's a wee wifie waiting in a wee but an' ben.
    If ye can say, "It's a braw, bricht, moonlicht nicht,"
    Yer a' richt, ye ken.

I like a man that is a man, a man that's straight and fair.
A sort of man, that will and can in all things do his share.
I like a man, a jolly man, the sort of man, "Ye know,"
The chap that slaps your back and says, "Mon, Jock," before ye go...

    CHORUS

I'll invite ye a' some other nicht, to come and bring your wives.
And I'll guarantee ye'll have the grandest nicht in all yer lives,
I'll have the bagpipes skirling, We'll make the rafters ring.
And when yer tired and sleepy, why I'll wake yer up an' sing:

    CHORUS


Written and Composed by Gerald Grafton and Harry Lauder. Copyright 1911 by T.B. Harms and Francis, Day & Hunter, New York (is there an earlier UK publication date?)

From the sheet music: "A free translation of Deoch-and-Doris is a convivial Night-Cap, the last drink before departing."

Transcribed from the sheet music.

    Meaning of unusual words:
    aye=always
    but and ben=a two-roomed cottage (click)
    ken=know


filename[ DOCHDORS

---

MIDI available on request, or you can follow the link to the sheet music.

There's a nice definition here:

A Butt and Ben is a two roomed cottage, the Butt end is the kitchen and the Ben is the sleeping area.

It's more commonly a holiday cottage rather than a permanently occupied house, the term is on the decline as most butt and bens have been demolished now in favour of better housing.

Subject: RE: Corr: A Wee Deoch an Doris/A Wee Docht and Doris
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:52 PM

The thread in which several people tried to translate & explain the term "deoch-an-doris" was this one:

Deoch an Dorus / Deoch-an-Doruis

Back in October and November of this year, I posted lyrics to all the Harry Lauder songs I could find. Most of them are in this thread: Lyr Add: Music-hall songs sung by Harry Lauder, but when there was already a thread about one of the songs, I updated the existing thread as necessary, and posted a link to it in my new thread.

When I came to A WEE DEOCH-AN-DORIS, I posted lyrics copied from the sheet music here. The messages following that one have some comments on the differences between the sheet music and the recording.

Subject: RE: Corr: A Wee Deoch an Doris/A Wee Docht and Doris
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:57 PM

Dang. I wonder how I missed all that, Jim. Guess I must have looked for "docht." I combined two of the threads.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Corr: A Wee Deoch an Doris/A Wee Docht and Doris
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 11:41 PM

"If you can see its a nice bright moonlight night"

from the email translation from 'Di' that Joe yesterday 0626 pm reported receiving [when?] ~

surely, for 'see', read 'say'? It's a test of his articulacy after a few, not of his eyesight!.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Corr: A Wee Deoch an Doris/A Wee Docht and Doris
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:57 AM

My parents had the cottage in Michigan named Wee Doc and Doris.