BS: Removing Bermuda Grass

Subject: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 12:02 AM

Hybrid bermuda grass is the plague of nations. Does anyone know how to remove this stuff for good?!

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 03:13 AM

Plant some Kudzu.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:29 AM

Bobert'll get rid of yer grass.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:40 AM

There are several varieties of bermuda grass used commonly in my area, and for some purposes it is an excellent lawn grass. It withstands high temperatures and requires a whole lot less water and fertilizer than other kinds, and is less affected by a variety of pests that can be troublesome with other popular kinds of lawn grasses.

If your problem is with bermuda invading another kind of lawn, the "green" approach sometimes would be to get rid of the other grass and let the bermuda take over. It doesn't get green as early in the spring here, but will be green later in summer when the others are going back to brown.

If your problem is the bermuda that invades "garden" spaces the best approaches depend on whether you have an annual garden that's plowed (cultivated) and replanted annually or a space with established perennial plantings.

For conversion of an open grass area that contains bermuda, the "old-way" of mechanically cutting sod off in layers at least three or four inches thick and dropping it back in place upside down was once about all you had. If left for a few weeks, most of the bermuda will die out, but it must be done while the grass is growing actively (not dormant) and preferably right at the end of the growing season to limit regrowth until the soil warms the next year. This is still "moderately effective," but probably won't achieve a complete removal. Unless you really enjoy backbreaking shovel work, you'd want a real "turf plow" for the first turning. Reduction may be sufficient that cultivation the next season will permit reasonably easy manual/mechanical removal of remnants. ("Easy" in this context is from the 1890 Farmer's Dictionary which differs significantly from today's "me-too-mine wrd lst.")

For "spot" removal and to establish barriers to prevent migration from areas outside where you want to eliminate bermuda, the universally recommended tool is glyphosate - the familiar "Roundup" now sold under a variety of additional brand names.

Although using a herbicide may seem like "chemical warfare" when properly used glyphosate is environmentally benign. It must be applied to the growing leaves, where it's absorbed and transported to the roots. When the roots are killed, the leaves will wither, but the principal effect is not to kill the leaves. Exposed to the soil, any spill/excess decomposes into inert materials within hours, so there's virtually no residual effect and no runoff. Eliminating all the grassy plants in an area with glyphosate is less ecologically damaging than the runoff from a 2% excess of the fertilizer you'll probably pour on your alternate lawn grasses two or three times a year.

A proper method of application of glyphosate for small areas is to "wet mop it" with an ordinary household sponge mop dipped in the freshly mixed glyphosate mixture and squeezed almost dry. All that's required is that "some leaves" on all the individual plants get a light smear, and then the grass must be left to "grow" for a few days, until the leaves wither visibly.

If you have areas of bermuda adjacent to the place you're trying to keep clear, you can use the same mop to "wipe down" a barrier strip about a foot wide along the edges of your garden. If you repeat the mopping of the barrier whenever "something green" shows there, it should be fairly easy to prevent new migrating bermuda from crossing it, although "underground runners" can still cross under concrete sidewalks up to three or four feet wide, so some manual "picking" may still be needed.

Especially if you intend using the glyphosate periodically for barrier methods, you need to be careful to mix only amounts needed at a given time, since once mixed it loses effectiveness rapidly, often within a week or two. Unmixed concentrate, as usually sold, is seldom effective except for the season when purchased, so stocking in excessive quantities is also not recommended. Buy enough each year, but discard leftovers before the next season.

Most of the above is condensed from advice from the "lawn guy" at the State Department of Agriculture "counselling sessions for frustrated suburbanites" that I attended several years ago, before I learned that one can have a life beyond lawn maintenance and resorted to "if it doesn't try to come into the house it's a perfectly good lawn plant" and made the transition to "peaceful co-existence" with whatever grows. More recent published news doesn't indicate significant changes in recommendations for those who haven't yet discovered "equal rights for plants of all kinds."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:14 AM

Napalm...

BTW, Bermuda is one fine little island... Clean beaches... Great food, golf courses, pretty womenz, etc but...

...smoking their grass is a waste of time....

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: leeneia
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 09:18 AM

Thanks for the info, John. I like the sponge mop idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 11:04 AM

The most common agricultural use for Roundup is for the tall weeds that sprout up in the field. Many of the objectionable ones stick up above the crop plants, so the "applicator" is just a long horizontal pipe. A common sisal rope is threaded in and out through a row of holes in the pipe, and the pipe filled with the chemical. The Roundup wicks into the rope, and when it wipes across the plants that stick up as you tow the pipe above the crop, the "wetted" weeds die.

Spraying - as the jug at the garden shop will say you should do - wastes most of the Roundup, since any that hits the ground is almost immediately inactive and all that's needed is a small smear on a few leaves of each plant.

The Ag station nearby maintains "test plots" about a yard square of several dozen grasses and has used the "mop the barriers" method for at least 20 years that I know of, to prevent the grass plots from growing into the divider lanes.

Spraying may still be effective for a large plot in which you want to "kill everything" in preparation for a new "from scratch" lawn, but the mop works well for smaller areas - or "as long as your back holds out."

Do note that glyphosate has been in use for a ocuple of decades, and there are "Roundup Resistant" crop varieties available, and a few weeds that have spontaneously developed significant resistance. If you encounter a "leafy grass" that glyphosate doesn't kill, your best recourse would be contact your nearest Ag Agent for advice on what it is and what else will work on it, since the resistant plants vary a lot depending on location and climate. Some of the alternate chemicals are less "planet friendly" than glyphosate, and other methods may be preferable, so just randomly "getting a stronger chemical" isn't what I'd advise without help from an expert.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 02:09 PM

John, thanks for the advice, I think I will try the 'brush-on' approach to Roundup. Right now, I'm taking out several sections of sod with a spade and my own two hands (and my poor back and shoulders). In its place, I'm planting some California natives as well as a few vegetable gardens. But every stray piece of root or runner is potential bermuda re-birth.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 02:43 PM

While living in Oklahoma, we planted Bermuda (forget the variety recommended for the area (Tulsa). It is the only suitable lawn grass there.

A watch was necessary to keep it from invading permanent plantings, dogging out stolons carefully as they developed (and if necessary using methods described by JIK).

JohninKansas gave an excellent summary.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 02:43 PM

Any grass that spreads by runners can be a problem.

I have seen many different varieties of grass called Bermuda, and everyone thinks his local type is the real one.

California has a great selection of native plants, from annuals to small trees. I have seen Fremontia, madrone and Ceanothus used to good effect if planted carefully and allowed enough space. California poppy, Delphinium and lupine are pretty standard items.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 01:34 PM

Plant Zoysia plugs. It turns brown as wheat in the cold months, but nothing can kill or invade a lawn of zoysia- not weeds, sleet, snow, hail, nor a flock of pigeons or the neighbor's dog chasing the mailman.

If you have a drought one summer and walk past all the homes with grey, choking lawns, you will see one emerald green lawn on the block- and that will be Zoysia.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass lefthanded guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM

Hm....that was me, leftie here, I signed in when I first got online, checked my email and then discovered I'm not signed in again. I got bumped.

Is there Zoysia on cyberspace? ;D

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 05:33 PM

The northern limit for zoysia is zone 6, it won't work in the northern tier of states.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Janie
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM

I hates the stuff. But I am a gardener who cares nothing for my lawn, only my garden beds.

Have found ways to keep it at bay for long periods of time, but eventually, the bermuda grass is gonna win.

I dug out, with hand tools, a large garden bed once from a bermuda grass lawn.   15 years later, my back still has not forgiven that particular project.   Instead of turning the sod, I dumped it in a deeply shaded area (and eventually planted ferns.) The "top-soil" was mostly fill-dirt, down to about 4 inches, with another 4-8 inches of heavy red clay, and hardpan under that. There were bermuda grass roots all the way down through the clay, and even some down into the first 1/2-1" of hardpan.

Got to admire that kind of persistence and resilience.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:34 PM

The problem with the stuff is that it spreads underground... That means that stuff like RoundUp ain't gonna work...

The only solution is to move to the desert or live on a houseboat...

Oh, Antarctica is a possibility, as well...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Goose Gander
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:32 AM

I admire the tenacity of bermuda grass, i just don't want to live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: olddude
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM

I thought this was about grass skirts in Bermuda

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:24 PM

Ornamec may do the trick.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM

I'm tellin' y'all, Kudzu will work!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 12:26 PM

If you hit it often enough with vinegar and orange oil it will fade out, but you need to be diligent. It only kills the growing green part, and you need to outlast those persistent rhizomes. I hate the stuff. Physical removal does work, but you must be patient. Janie probably had the most accurate response.

Wouldn't use Roundup if you paid me, though. The only place I've ever used that is in the poison ivy, where the reaction is so strong that I have to get a shot to deal with it now.

Down here in Texas St. Augustine will crowd out the Bermuda grass, but it usually crowds it into the flower beds. :-/ And you have to use so much water to keep the St. Augustine alive that it isn't worth it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:57 PM

The problem with the stuff is that it spreads underground... That means that stuff like RoundUp ain't gonna work...

The way Roundup works is - you paint a little on the leaves and it's abosrbed into the plants juices. It kills the roots first, and the leaves only wilt when the roots quite sending up any fresh juice.

Wouldn't use Roundup if you paid me, though. The only place I've ever used that is in the poison ivy...

Roundup has never been recommended for poison ivy. Poison ivy is considered a woody (brush) pest, regardless of it's variable growth styles and Roundup generally will not kill it. Rouundup is for grasses.

You can't really blame the product for your failure to RTFM (apparently including the handling and safety recommendations?).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:46 PM

Roundup will kill roots only to a certain point. Stolons (the underground stems) are only partially attacked, bits alive but with dead stolon on either side live to grow again. Deep spading will find 'most' of the stolons.

Glyphosate will kill poison oak, but it must be applied late in the cycle. Manual removal if one covers onesself well.

Manual removal for poison ivy. The roots will die if there are no green parts to nourish them.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:57 PM

First of all, if I understand it, Roundup isn't a poison... It tricks the plant into growing so fast that it grows itself to death... Now I might be wrong...That's what I have heard...

I do know, however, that if you are trying to get control of Bermuda grass you're going to have to stay after it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: pdq
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:56 PM

"Roundup isn't a poison... It tricks the plant into growing so fast that it grows itself to death... Now I might be wrong..."

Well, yer right about being wrong...

The Roundup molecule has a sight that attaches to the chlorophyll molecule and disables it. The result is that the plant starves to death. The faster the plant's metabolism, the faster it works. That's why it may take three weeks to work in Winter and one week to work in Summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 03:21 PM

Bermuda grass laughs at Roundup, it scoffs at spades, I'm trying Ornamec .

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:20 PM

Vinegar and dish soap in water, sprayed when the plant is in hot sun. Look it up. Then look up Roundup, Vision and Agent Orange.

BTW, vinegar comes on sale REAL cheap in August. I got three jugs at half price and my weeds are just starting to grow... but not for long.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:42 PM

I haven't noticed any particular seasonal sales on vinegar, but at the bulk store where we get most of our kitchen stuff a box - three gallon jugs - is around $3 - $4 any time. (Quite a bit cheaper than bottled water.) I've used it with some success on weeds that sprout through the cracks in the driveway, but enough of it to be effective acidifies the soil enough that nothing grows there for a rather long time. It might be useful for "edging" but I'm not sure I'd recommend it for clearing a new garden space to get ready for planting.

Effectiveness of any treatment varies a lot with whether the plants are in active growth, new growth, mid-season, or going into dormancy, and some work at one time but not at others. For materials intended for specific uses, reading the recommendations on the package carefully is recommended. Sadly, my bulk vinegar doesn't even come with decent pickle recipes on the label.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 08:56 PM

Kudzu would be good. I mean with kudzu everything is sooo green! I do mean EVERYTHING!!!!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 12:13 AM

Roundup has killed my poison ivy just fine. I use it with surgical application, applying with a small spray bottle to the leafy surface of every leaf I can find along the vine. Knock wood so far it is gone completely in the area where it remained in the yard.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: Janie
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 01:49 AM

Cut it out, Spaw, or I'll come and move you to the southeast, into a house taken over by kudzu on one side, and wisteria on the other.

One thing for sure, if the backyard is covered in kudzu, you don't ever have to mow!

Subject: RE: BS: Removing Bermuda Grass
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 10:46 PM

Every time I see this thread, I keep hearing...

"If you'd just listen sir once again,
To the reasons of one of your men,
You could make all these things come to pass,
Where I could lay on the Bermuda Grass
Home, Home goin' alone to the sound of the military brass
Once again-
Oooh-hooo-oo
Oooh-hooo-oo"....