BS: The meaning of words

Subject: BS: The meaning of words
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:02 AM

Stemming from an innocent mistake in the opening post, another thread of mine seems to have become a battleground on which urban eco-friendly warriors are flexing their IQs on the utilisation of deragatory terms for the seemingly oppressed under-class.

Now, I have no interest at all in the class war. I have been and always will be free of such concepts. There are two classes of people in the world as far as I am concerned. Those who I can get on with and those that I can't. In fact, it has been said often over the years that I have no class whatsoever. But I am not sure if that means the same thing.

Anyway. I will try to make the point of this thread clearer. Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass has a passage in where Himpty-Dumpty discusses semantics with Alice.

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master      that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"[

That is pretty much how I feel about manipulating words as well.

How about you?

Cheers

MP

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:25 AM

One of my favourite bits of writing. My sympathies lie firmly with Humpty, though the passage often seems to be taken the wrong way.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:59 AM

We can't know what Humpty means because he says that only he determines the meanings of his words, and we can't read hhis mind. But if he means what he appears to mean, he'll soon be in a mental hospital either because no one will understand what he means, or else because he thinks his mind controls what everybody else means.

The functional meanings of words are determined by common consent, not by individuals. Though not everything is quite so simple, "chair" means "chair" because we agree that it does. In most languages, the sound of the word "chair" means nothing at all.

Of course, "common consent" varies and changes, sometimes helpfully direction, sometimes in quite the opposite direction. Except in technical fields (where "electron" better mean "electron" all the time), it's almost impossible to restrain changes in meaning. What's more, inconsistent meanings often exist at the same time. They rise and fall beyond the control of any group of individuals. Or individual.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:18 AM

I can understand the meaning of Humpty.
But, what's the deal with Dumpty?

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:45 AM

Oh, Humpty MUST be right....how else can we explain the 423 definitions of 'folk', and 2385 Republican definitions of 'fix the budget'?!

(I think I have posted the Alice/Humpty exchange 6-8 times here.)

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:17 PM

It's only worms, but worms are all I have...

:-)

MP

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:30 PM

Words are labels. Labels mean something in one culture, perhaps nothing in another culture. A word such as "liberal" means one thing to one person, another thing to another person...although you can find a dictionary definition for it, but that definition does not give you the positive or negative emotional content that various people will attach to the word "liberal". Some people like "liberals", some people detest "liberals", but they're not emotionally agreed on what the word "liberal" means, are they? (even though they can both look up the literal definition in the dictionary)

So what do words mean? They mean whatever the listener thinks they mean, because they are only labels, and the label is not the thing it is labelling.

We can talk about reality or we can directly experience it. Only a direct experience will acquaint us with reality. Talking about it is just a mental referencing process. It's labelling.

Unfortunately, on this forum all we can DO is talk. This medium does not permit direct experience, just talk.

Thus a great deal of misunderstanding is pretty much guaranteed here. Perhaps the best response would be............

















......

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:21 PM

Words are just one form of communicating, by which I mean the attempt to show the mind of another the ideas and feelings in one's own. We have many additional aids to this, such as voice tone, facial expression, gestures, even visual aids such as photos, films, drawings. But after all, the true joining of two minds is virtually impossible. One is actually very alone inside one's head! But I don't agree that one should just retreat into a hermetic silence. We are social creatures and MUST communicate. We just can't ask for total understanding by the others. I did a course on British Sign Language, and was struck by how limiting it is to be deaf and have only one's gestures to reveal thoughts to another. Yet travelling around Africa, I found I could say quite a lot by a kind touch, a grin or a cross face.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:20 PM

W

O

R

D

S

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:39 PM

It's only words
and words are all I have
to take your hummingbirds
away,

and,you may think
that I don't even mean
a single word I say

da da da
da da da
da da da
da da da

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:12 PM

I was not suggesting that everyone should retreat into hermetic silence, Eliza....just that, for any one person, silence is sometimes the best response (depending on the situation). It's sometimes better to remain silent than to add more fuel to the fire.

At other times, to speak out is the best response...and to genuinely communicate is definitely a good thing.

You're right that we cannot ask for total understanding from others nor necessarily expect it...but we can attempt to give it.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:47 PM

Lizzie, that last one was esp. moving. Thanks for posting it.

I wouldn't base any opinions about anything, esp. words and as a writer, on Alice and anything Lewis Carroll happened to have dreamed up. Bah!

I love language and do my best to be careful of how I phrase things.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:49 PM

Never miss out on a good chance to keep your mouth shut!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:52 PM

Bah. Learn the correct meanings of words and do not misuse them.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:56 PM

I, for one, never take anyone on the internet too seriously or too literaly, Eliza. I said, long ago but in a time when I could say what I wanted to, wherever I liked, that a poet for greater than I could ever hope to be penned the lines

if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;

Unfortunately not everyone can see that. They take offence at every opportunity and try to use it to their advantage. They become the perenial victim and, even though they are most vociferous about the harm that words can do; they themselves cannot stay out of the heat of the kitchen for long enough to catch their breath. I do not sneer at them either. I do laugh at the irony; but more often than not I feel sorry for them.

Imagine living in a world where you perceive every statement, however innocent, as a threat? It must be hell. No wonder they crack under the strain. But the stresses are not applied externaly. They all come from within.

As we are discussing here - what do words mean? Certainly they can have a meaning that the writer devises. but more often than not the meanings are derived from the readers own imagination. And if that imagination distorts the meanings in a way that the writer could never have envisaged - Where does the solution lie? The writer cannot retract the words once he has written them. But the reader can stop looking and forget about them, surely...

MP

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:18 PM

Amusingly, the BBC was broadcasting news about the problems on the M1.

There was a fire under an elevated section and the ferroconcrete structure is damaged.

The immediate worry is that people trying to commute into London on Monday morning may be delayed.

The BBC, once the font of proper usage, referred to the risk that "all lanes will not be open". What they meant of course is the risk that "not all lanes will be open".

It's simply failure to attend in lessons and bad grammar.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:41 PM

It's true that written words can have an enormous range of interpretation. During my Uni studies, we had tutorials on English Literature, and the range of views about a poem or novel was astonishing, and each one valid in its own way.
I agree that life must be terrible for those who perceive a threat in every remark, and feel a need to retaliate aggressively. Those kinds of people scare and upset me, I wish they would engage pleasantly and put across their point of view without becoming insulting, rude or unkind.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: saulgoldie
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:23 AM

"...the range of views about a poem or novel was astonishing, and each one valid in its own way."

Excellent point, Eliza! That is why I insist that communication must be honest, open, and have the ultimate goal of reaching understanding.

Here is a link on a very touching piece called "The Power Of Words."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzgzim5m7oU&feature=youtu.be

I have more to say about words. (I was about to start a thread about this topic, myself.) But I wanted to post this now.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:25 AM

Saul, that video *is* very touching. I have it on my FB page, after finding it via someone else. Very moving.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:22 AM

Thank you, Saul. I'd not seen that video. Very effective.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:44 AM

Good Video.

I wonder what would have happened if she'd written "Chav"

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM

If you have no interest at all in the current class war that is raging, and the corporate culture that accepts the accidental destruction of areas of the Earth the size of Pennsylvania in single incident, I would ask you Why?

If one is in possesion of the facts and their faculties, the only honest reason must be, "I don't care".

For that there are sadly no rational explanations.


FOr those who do care we al may try to find an alternative.
A Declaration of Interdependence

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: saulgoldie
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:44 PM

Here are two words that those who use them are/were doing so to intentionally insult.

"Democrat" as in "the 'Democrat' party." The correct use would be "DemocratIC party," because "Democratic" is an adjective. The people who use this phrase know they are saying it wrong, and they do so intentionally as if spitting the name out. This belies any pretense of desiring "civility." If one is civil, one presents their argument in a noninflammatory way. One does not "bait" one's opponent.

Also, back when "W" was still president, he would say "nukular" instead of "noo-clee-ir. In the beginning, many people thought it was cutesy. But he kept using it even though he knew it was stupid-speak because he knew that those of us who knew it was wrong winced every time he did it. And he liked tormenting people.

Thoughtful people who are working towards a higher level of understanding can ignore these trite insults. But those who deliver them are not interested in a higher level of understanding.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:26 PM

But he kept using it even though he knew it was stupid-speak because he knew that those of us who knew it was wrong winced every time he did it. And he liked tormenting people.

Is that true? I always thought he was just a wanker.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Janie
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:46 AM

Who's on first?

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 02:53 AM

Donuel, that's good! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 03:52 AM

The BBC, once the font of proper usage, referred to the risk that "all lanes will not be open".

What they used have said is that there is risk that all lanes will be closed.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 03:57 AM

All we have is the bond. If you are religious the greatest reward in that community is the bond. IF you are a soldier in a platoon the group bond will make you do things that are unimaginable to anyone outside that group bond. Esprit d'corps, holistic vision, Empathic connections, addiction to mudcat, Group intention, a common goal, a sporting event when we are all in this together, the herd mentality, the profound feeling of belonging,
It has many names in diverse groups although we are most familiar in the religious, warfare, romance, psychological, parapsychological (psychic or group consciousness phenomena, political and work goal related groups.

We are wired that way to seek the rewards and protection of the bond be it a marraige or a nation.

What happens when people or groups seek to use the bond toward a selfish or evil purpose such as Enron, corporate culture and Wall St. collusion? You know the answer, you are experiencing it.

If the use of the human bond phenomenon is directed by eveil intent or selfish theft the bond becomes a cancerous growth. If the bond is used for an evil ideology it will deliver the rewards of bonding and belonging but ironicly eleaves its participants in an existential lonliness that leaves a person craving the bond but feeling abandoned, fragmented and feel surrounded by opposition or an imagined enemy.

When the bond is for simple or profound good the participant finds that even strangers are more friendly and the concept of enemies grows weak in the face of the coomon bond. Like sharing a dream.

People are willing and anxious to group think great hope and change.
We willingly will become addicted to that sense of belonging. It can be so strong that people are at first willing to overlook betrayal.

The most accesible group bond is music. All Playing or singing together is the greatest but even in an audience the bond is strong.

The hoopla at an NRA meeting or the grand ceremonies and pagentry of the 3rd Reich both reward each person's need for the bond. We are wired that way.

The electricity in the air, the sprit and roar of the crowd can be more powerful than a drug like cocaine. IT can also be addictive.

How leaders use this central bond characteristic of people is different for each one but the ones who use it most effectively are said to have charisma. Compare John Boehner to George Clooney and we all might say Goerge has more charsima. We might also see John as the personification of the misuse of the bond.

The experience of the bond is not ineffable. We can describe it as the space between us, the common vibe but whatever we choose to call it, in my opinion, it transends the meaning of words.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:02 AM

"What they used have said "

Oops! What they should have said....

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:52 AM

Humpty Dumpty's view is somewhat repeated by 'Big Julie' in Guys & Dolls who plays craps using a set of dice on which the spots are invisible to all but him. This allows him to put his own interpretation on any throw.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM

Is a Numpty the same thing as a Humpty Dumpty in meaning?

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM

Not just the Beeb for inept language, just check out subtitling!

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:34 AM

The dots on Big Julie's dice, to be accurate, were not exactly invisible, but had worn away thru much use ~~ but he remembers where they were.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Lox
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:38 AM

Interesting this business of Humpty Dumpty.

He wishes to free himself from the tyranny of words and makes hiimself their master.

Chav is slightly different as it does not tyrranize the person who uses it, but the person it is used against.

So the Alice in wonderland quote provided isn't quite relevant.

Describing people as Chavs places the word above the person.


I'm with humpty - people do occupy a higher status than words.

And Chav, being a word that belittles people, is one I treat with contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM

What a concatenation of misbegotten degradation.

Words are tokens of agreement. They have definitions--but the definitions evolve over time.

If you don't know why a word means what it does, where it came from, it's very adventurous to presume to impose arbitrary new meanings on it. It happens all right, but usually it's a fizzle.

IF you don't honor the agreements that are built up in a word, you are cutting yourself off from richness of thought and experience, and choosing a sad, merely existential hole. Humpty was, in short, a bad egg, a cheap yolk, a self-abusing solipsist, a cartoon of sad curmudgeonly decrepitude.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Lox
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 10:43 AM

A

:-)

L

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM

Amos is right.

However, Humpty Dumpty is frequently quoted as the final authority. And not usually as a joke.

I wonder why that is. As a professor of logic, C. L. Dodgson ("Lewis Carroll") knew the egg was crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM

There are two sides to every looking-glass.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 02:48 PM

'Chair' was mentioned in an earlier post. I got stuck on that word and can't help thinking about it.

Chair means chair? What is that? Is it the sexless leader at a meeting? What the leader of a meeting does? A leading position (Sir James Chair of Physics, the Chair of the diocese, etc.? The support of a rail or other construction piece?

Did it once mean something to sit on? 'Tis a puzzlement.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 03:49 PM

But it does mean "chair." It doesn't mean "nose." Even if it could some day.

If I say it means "nose," I'm perverse. If I say it enough, and believe it, I'm sick.

That's the point.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:09 PM

Take the word 'clockwise'.
Now pretend you're a clock.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:13 PM

I like that, Smokey:-) I giess that some words can be used quite lateraly rather than literaly :-)

Ford Prefect: It's like being drunk.

Arther Dent: What's wrong with that?

Ford Prefect: Ask a glass of water...

MP

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:26 PM

A clock does not know from clockwise. Being clock is a mindless state of unperceptive tickery tockery.

I think Mr Carroll was extending his rapier wit to portray the witless--in other words, HD is taking the piss.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:28 PM

There are entire fields of study devoted to sorting out how meaning is developed & assigned... and changed.

Semantics, linguistics, 'ordinary language' philosophy, philology.... with other fields poking their noses in at times. Try some Ludwig Wittgenstein if you want to delve deeply: "Was heisst es, was ein Speil ist?" ("What does it mean 'to know what a game is'?"
His examinations of similar questions are not for the faint-hearted.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:19 PM

Re insisting on our own meanings.

Consider the relative uselessness, when used without context or explanation, of the word "folksong." (Right, it's been considered often.) It's definitely a song. But what kind of a song?

Plenty of definitions, little agreement.

Unlike "chair."

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM

"What kind of a song?
exactly! There are as many ways to define 'categories' as there are ways to define words. They can be totally subjective, depending on how YOU think of them. You could divide everything into 'fast songs' and 'slow songs', or as some fiddlers do, into the key-- "I know some good 'A' tunes. Or into topics...(our monthly sing has a topic)...or by length. etc...etc...
But the choosing of categories changes if you are planning a public event or making shelf signs in a store, as there are general categories that folks look for when going out to buy music.

Everything can be divided in similar ways, depending on culture, specific needs, ...and the very language involved. What is important is to agree on words and categories that allow some sort of reasonably clear communication. (In some places, you need to clarify what you mean when you invite someone for 'dinner' or 'supper'.)

The enemy of clarity is over-generalization and weak vocabulary....wars have been fought and religions altered because of confusion about what was intended.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:57 PM

Back to the hitchikers guide for one of the better quotes on how "confusion about what was intended" has caused wars -

Two species which existed in the distant past, a very great distance from the Milky Way galaxy. The G'Gugvuntt were enemies of the Vl'hurgs, and these strange and warlike beings are on the brink of an interstellar war, because of an insult uttered by the G'Gugvuntt leader to the mother of the Vl'hurg leader. Resplendent in their black-jeweled battle shorts, they were meeting for the last time, and a dreadful silence filled the air as the Vl'hurg leader was challenging the G'Gugvuntt leader to retract the insult. At the precise moment, the phrase "I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle" (muttered by Arthur Dent to himself, which for some strange reason was carried by a freak wormhole in space back in time to the farthest regions of the universe where the G'Gugvuntts and the Vl'hurgs lived) filled the air over the conference table, which in the Vl'hurg tongue was the most dreadful insult imaginable. It left them no choice but to declare war on the G'Gugvuntts, which went on for a few thousand years and decimated their entire galaxy.

After millennia of battle the surviving G'Gugvuntt and Vl'hurg realised what had actually happened, and joined forces to attack the Milky Way in retaliation. They crossed vast reaches of space in a journey lasting thousands of years before reaching their target where they attacked the first planet they encountered, Earth. Due to a terrible miscalculation of scale the entire battle fleet was swallowed by a small dog. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy states that this sort of thing happens all the time.

:-)

MP

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 07:50 PM

"I think Mr Carroll was extending his rapier wit to portray the witless"

I don't think he would have wasted his time and effort on doing that, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:17 PM

Because?

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:33 PM

Because I get the impression that isn't how his mind worked, I suppose. It seems a trivial thing to do, both in the context of the book and in the circumstances in which it was written.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:52 PM

I got it for a song. Therefore songs are worthless.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:25 PM

Yeah, but maybe in that case the song was "Havin' My Baby" by Paul Anka.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:26 PM

Words are just tools that we use for expressing ourselves. Sometimes people knock screws in with a hammer, or knock nails in with a spanner. No matter how wrong it may be or how much we disapprove of it, it still happens and there is nothing anyone can do about it. People mean what they mean, regardless of which way they attempt to convey it, and regardless of what we might think they mean. If we don't quite understand them, we should ask, rather than assume our own interpretation of what has been said.

There is, however, nothing wrong with the phrase that Humpty is talking about, being "there's glory for you". He is no fool.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Bill D
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:33 PM

"I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle"

Reminds me that on TWO occasions many years ago, in what *I* thought were casual conversations, ladies said to me: "I seen to have problems establishing an 'interpersonal relationshp'."

I was so dense I didn't tumble to an invitation when I heard one. Say what you mean!

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:35 PM

Check out how this bozo uses words...

De troof? Lissen up! Keep it real.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 06:59 AM

Perhaps Humpty didn't fall he probably gave up the will to live and leapt.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 07:53 AM

Or was he pushed?

Does anyone really think all the "king's" horses and men would even *try* to put him back together? Power does not work that way. Dumpty's views on language threatened the king's grip on totalitarian power. The egg's voice had to be silenced.

We must tirelessly trace out the conspiracy against Dumpty if we are to be free. And no one is innocent.

(Disclaimer: The above discourse contains irony. If you are insufficiently sensitive to irony or are irony-deficient, be sure to consult your health-care provider after reading.)

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 08:35 AM

Or they might have had 'Oeuf' on their faces rather than egg.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 09:22 AM

Is there really a "differance"?

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Lox
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 03:06 PM

Yes

You can have more than one egg ...

... but one is unoeuf ...

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:26 AM

"Chair" also means flesh, of course, in French. So using the word to describe what a nose is made of would be quite correct.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM

As everyone knows, there are noses and there are noses. Aeroplanes have them, for example. The elasticity of the English language is one of its greatest strengths.

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 01:10 PM

Then there are hooters, which can lead to transatlantic misunderstandings. For example, are hooters noses, horns or Bristols?

Subject: RE: BS: The meaning of words
From: saulgoldie
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 09:19 AM

"Pro choice" and "pro life" are not opposites.

Someone who is "pro choice" advocates for the right of a woman to choose her form of birth control, including barrier types, spermicides, morning after pills, and surgery. Someone who is anti-choice, wants her choice to be made by statute. That is definitional. It is not rhetorical. One either advocates for her right to choose, or one is anti-choice, and wants to make that choice for her.

One who calls themself "pro life" suggests the s/he is a defender of life. This suggests, rhetorically, that one who is not "pro-life" is against life. This is rhetorical. Most of the people who call themselves "pro-life" oppose the rights of people to choose. They are therefore more accurately called "anti-choice." They also oppose the rights of people to "choose" various forms of birth control that prevent conception.

From the voices of those "pro life" advocates we hear on the news, they mostly also eat living beings of other species, endorse war and execution of the guilty, and endorse large scale gun ownership. These things would suggest that they are not truly defenders of life.

Further, they advocate for persecution of people who are not heterosexuals, or who have sex when they are not married. If one distills the "pro-life" veiwpoint, the best that one can come up with is that they are simply very uncomfortable with matters of sexuality, and wish to impose their discomfort on everyone else.

"Pro-life" is not an accurate characterization. It is a rhetorical structure. And anyone who uses the term is allowing them a rhetorical win, as opposed to being literally accurate.

Saul