BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job

Subject: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 May 11 - 08:45 AM

I for one have never gone along with the belief that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were an inside job by the American government. But I am curious about the thought process of those who DO believe it happened that way. So I promise not to poke fun if some of you who have your doubts tell me what you think about the following:

What does the death of Bin Laden do to the 9/11 truth movement?

Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Some believe that Bin Ladens body have been frozen for years only to be brought out now for political reasons.

Was Bin Laden framed? Was he involved in the 9/11 attacks in any way?

The videos where Bil Laden admits involvement in the 9/11 attacks - were they fakes?

Would photos or films of Bil Ladens death or burial be proof that he is dead?

Where does the 9/11 Truth movement go from here?


Respectfully submitted for your consideration - really.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 11 - 09:26 AM

Where does the 9/11 Truth [sic] movement go from here?

Hopefully, down the loo, where the turd that it is belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:08 AM

he he he's Been Laden now!

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:22 PM

Article: On Bin Laden's Death

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:47 PM

Obviously Hedges in that article believes that 9/11 was an Al Qaeda job. So LH was not addressing Wesley's question.

I don't agree with Hedges about the revenge attacks. I don't think that anyone willing to sacrifice their lives to attack US soil has any more reason to attack us than they did last week. Osama was a figurehead for young Muslims but his death was not inspiring. If he had died blowing up a western target or if he had at least got a shot off at the SEALs or even if it could be proved that he wasn't using one of his female relatives as a shield, he might have inspired attacks in in demise.   

I think Hedges point comparing Bin Laden to Hitler was quite telling. The Battle for Europe in WWII would have probably ended much sooner had Hitler been killed or captured sooner.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:59 PM

I have never read an argument that could convince me the 9-11 attack was anything but terrorism from an outside source.

The death of Bin Laden won't do much to effect the prevalence of terrorism or attacks against Americans or Non Muslim interests in the world.

What it is is an act of justifiable revenge against the man and the organization who brought down the towers.

And I think Jack's statement about WWII as it applies to HItler and Europe is spot on.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:10 PM

I think it's possible the Bush administration infiltrated al Qaida and implanted the idea of 9-11 but that's still a long shot. It would have taken longer than that to get it planned and Bush just hadn't been in power that long. but if it started before Bush took power, it would mean that his presidency was already decided in advance and that he would carry out their little plan--whoever "they" are. That's plausible because Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 but got in anyway. That's cause for suspicion but requires a vast conspiracy at the highest levels of govt that seems unlikely but pretty damned frightening if true. As far as explosives planted in the WTC, that's so absurd anyone who believes it seriously needs psychological counseling.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:12 PM

And then there's the UFO nuts who insist UFOs played a role in 9-11. If you really want to read some nutso fringe ravings, give that stuff a try.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:30 PM

I would imagine that as most of the 9/11 Truth Organisations are run by professional, highly intelligent people, such as Firefighters, Police, Emergecny Crews, Scholars, Architects and Engineers, Scientists, Top Military Officers and Airforce people that nothing has changed in the slightest.

I know my views certainly haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:03 PM

And there even MORE 'professional, highly intelligent people, such as Firefighters, Police, Emergecny Crews, Scholars, Architects and Engineers, Scientists, Top Military Officers and Airforce people' who do NOT believe the conspiracy theories.

I assume there will be those, 10 years from now, still claiming that we did NOT kill bin Laden and faked the whole thing.

All in all, I think conspiracy theories are just simply 'more interesting' than the boring truth for some folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: andrew e
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:15 PM

I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT IT   

Ralph McTell

I've thought about it
I really have tried
And the answer quite simply
Is that they tell lies
And they've got the power
And what they decide
Affects your life and my life and everybody's life besides.

And I've thought about it
Till my brain says "no more"
I've justified their actions
And I've criticised their wars
And I've watched them balance on the edge of the knife
And it's your life and my life and none of our lives are safe.

From lack of food
Thousands have died.
While farmers burn crops
Just to keep prices high
And from that kind of logic
There's no place to hide!
That could be your life or my life or anybody's life next time.

For the sword of justice
They can find an excuse
But her scales have gone rusty
From not being used
And no blindfold can hide
The tears in her eyes.
For your life, my life, and everybody's life besides.

And if Jesus came back
To lead us again
They'd make sure that he met
The very same end.
Though their names have been changed
They survive to this day
They'll take your life or my life, or anybody's life in their way.

And my guitar protects me
But that's not really true
If you took it away
I'd be just the same as you
And though songs never change things
But they help you decide
To change your life, my life, and everybody's life besides.

And they talk about a revolution.
And they talk about a revolution.
Talk about a revolution . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:40 PM

I don't think I want to encourage 9/11 conspiracy theorists to come to Mudcat and discuss their theories. Once they discover that Mudcat's rules of civility are more lax that just about any discussion forum in the universe, and that there is no rule that anything has to be relevant to folk music, we could be subject to a hostile takeover.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:48 PM

Encourage them to come?

As Fox Mulder was wont to say: There HERE!!!

(See 03:30PM Posting, this date.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 11 - 06:13 PM

"they're"   

"there" is a location. It does not mean "they are here".

I posted the linked article above because I thought it was a good one which some people might like to read, and it's related in some ways to the subject matter of this thread. I did not post it to answer Wesley's list of questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 11 - 06:16 PM

Correction: "there" does not mean "they are". "their" does not mean "they are" either. And "your" does not mean "you are". Just to be perfectly clear about it. Verbal contractions have been suffering a terrible lack of use on the Internet of late, I've noticed. Along with the neglected adverb, they appear to be vanishing from popular usage.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 May 11 - 08:06 PM

ANYWAY - we may have a few conspiracy theorists already, but let's try not to attract any more.

They can use Google too, you know, to find out where 9/11 is being discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 May 11 - 08:09 PM

...And the first ones to come will be those who have been kicked off other forums.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:44 AM

Can we believe that Osama Bin Laden ever existed? Was he just a figment of the imagination of some shadowy figure in Washington?

Perhaps America doesn't exist. Maybe Columbus pulled the wool over our eyes those many years ago to cover his embarrassment at getting lost and the myth has been perpetuated by those in power. This makes as much sense as the 9/11 conspiracy theories.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:47 AM

Move over, Richard Bridge, Doug Chadwick is giving you some stiff competition!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: J-boy
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:57 AM

"Reality is far worse than any conspiracy." - I can't remember who said that. But I like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Lox
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:24 AM

None of us on here knows what happened on 9 - 11.

What has been established is that the official explanation is inconsistent with the evidence.

Scientific investigation is the reason we know stuff about our world.

Sadly, when it conflicts with peoples beliefs they get upset.

Have fun crowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 May 11 - 06:16 AM

This reminds me of a recent Horizon programme which compared the way scientists base their opinions on evidence to test the basis of any hypothesis from as broad a range of observations as possible, and still be reluctant to commit themselves to an opinion.

However, conspiracy theorists tend to look at one possible interpretation, or one piece of evidence and claim that proves their point, even though the overwhelming body of other evidence states otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 May 11 - 08:05 AM

I am absolutely sure that in every administration in the world there are persons cynical enough to foster the enemies of their country (resp. ethnic or religious group), hoping to profit from the violence arising. Their help may or may not have been needed for 9/11 or Pearl Harbor etc., but they can be watched in action in debates about war and peace, in the USA, the Middle East, and elsewhere.

Don't believe their war propaganda, and never reproduce it. Don't dance when they claim victory, however evil the enemy may have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 May 11 - 08:29 AM

"Scientific investigation is the reason we know stuff about our world."

And one of the things it tells us is that 9/11 was no inside job.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Lox
Date: 04 May 11 - 08:48 AM

I'm not really interested in alternative hypotheses.

What concerns me is that there is an enormous amount of evidence that contradicts the official explanation for 9/11 that has been collated over the last 10 years or so.

It matters a great deal that the government would stand by explanations for an event that are contradicted by the available evidence.

You would expect the Government to be concerned to discover what happened rather than to ignore the evidence and stick to a story that doesn't fit the facts.

I don't adhere to any of the conspiracy theories, least of all the one that the Moslem world is out to get us.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Musket
Date: 04 May 11 - 08:55 AM

Says more about the people politicians claim to represent than the thinking of governments themselves.....

A bloke reckons his family oil firm was ripped off by some damned yankees.
He then gets kicked out of the family nest and ends up following a dream of being a radical in order to embarrass his family.
He realises that you can get people to do illogical nasty things if you claim it is in furtherance of their religion.
He puts his hatred of oil interests with his new found philosophy to devastating effect.
Eventually, it catches up with him and he is dead.
The media and weirdos with too much time on their hands have something to talk about for a while.

On that note, must find some work to do..........

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:12 AM

Nobody with brains thinks "the Moslem world is out to get us." Though unfortunately that leaves many who do.

It's Al-Qaida and their fanatic pals. But at least a few of those may now realize that Allah does not favor their enterprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:15 AM

Lox,
"What concerns me is that there is an enormous amount of evidence that contradicts the official explanation for 9/11 that has been collated over the last 10 years or so."

Not true.
Every bit of evidence has been debunked.
It is more like a religious dogma than a theory, and the true believers will never be convinced.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:18 AM

Glad that's all settled.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Lox
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:02 AM

Believers in what Keith?

You clearly believe one theory.

I don't because there is a credible investigation out there that is finding that the evidence and the official line don't add up.

In particular with regard to WTC 7.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:36 AM

"there is a credible investigation out there that is finding that the evidence"
Who?

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:51 AM

When you refer to ufo nuts, are you including the our highest ranking military personnel?
There are some things that you know nothing of what you speak, except for the cliche.
While the cliche of 'ufo nuts' persists as a hackneyed media remark made while grinning, the phrase is meaningless to those who know the verified yet partial truth. Among those who do know, there is no use of the words believing or believer.


People who know what bin Laden was really up to, realize that violence was only an incidental means to an end.

If you want to research the WTC job, you should look up the elevator repair contractors that worked nightly in both buildings 3 weeks prior to the plane crashes. What you will learn will be the lynch pin to understanding the full extent of the inside job followed by the "outside job". Get the actual work orders so not to be influenced by the editorial opinions of others who make connections beyond the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:52 AM

"I don't because there is a credible investigation out there that is finding that the evidence and the official line don't add up.

In particular with regard to WTC 7."

You either haven't read or have ignored the many, many clear explanations that have been linked to or explained....in this forum...by me. WTC 7 was an 'unusual' building in its construction (as were the towers) and all that 'interesting' evidence is either mis-interpretation or selective ignoring of what the actual situation was.
Real experts draw diagrams and show images and videos....then the conspiracy folk shrilly repeat, as if they haven't heard what was told them.."..but no steel frame building has EVER fallen that way!"

It is really useless to explain it to those whose ongoing Mantra is **We don't accept the official answers**

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Lox
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:21 AM

Well one of many is William F Pepper, the lawyer who won a civil court action which proved that Martin Luther Kings assassination was not quite the random act of independant terrorism that we are supposed to believe it was.

The ruling from that trial remains intact.

He is now at the centre of the current investigation into WTC 7.

There is plenty more out there that you can find out if you follow on from that starting point.

Unless your ears are shut.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:23 AM

You prove my point....

Now, I am over & out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:27 AM

Curiosities

Accurate measurment of the fall of the towers reveal the fall was 32 feet per second per second.

Thermite was positively identified at ground zero.

The elevator repairs 3 weeks prior to 9-11 are most unusual and revealing.

The exposions immediately prior to each tower collapse are recorded on Firemen transmissions.

BBC video broadcast in real time of the collapse of WTC building 7 describing the collapse of building 7 prior to its collapse.

The sequential explosions descending downard on the south side were eescribed as pressure gusts despite the fact they each ahppen prior to the floor's collapse.

THe fact that no fire in history, including buildings struck by large aircraft, has ever had this kind of effect on a steel structure before or since.



Coincidences:

George W Bush's brother was director of security at the Towers.

The prophetic remarks by former FBI agent who worked as the security manager who died at the WTC collapse.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:55 AM

These myths and others explained here.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:07 PM

There is absolutely no point in discussing this with other people on the Internet, for reasons that should be obvious to anyone by now.

People on both sides of this debate are as fanatical, obdurate, prejudiced, and willfully obstinate as the worst religious fanatics could possibly be. They show no respect for one another, no desire to listen to anyone who thinks differently, and you can't tell them anything, because they already KNOW IT ALL.

So fuck 'em. What's the use even bothering to talk about it here?

And do you really think what any of us says here will change the situation? I don't. It's just venting, in most cases. It's just proving to yourself how RIGHT you are for the 10 billionth time, but no one else cares, and it doesn't matter anyway.

Why not find a less stressful way of spending your time? Take up beating your wife or your dog instead...you'll still have the joy of knowing how "right" you are as you land each telling blow.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: GUEST,Skivee, guesting in
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:14 PM

Donuel, most of your statements are demonstratively wrong. and have been demonstrated to be wrong.
Here's just one:
There was no Thermite at ground zero. This compound, that you seem to think is an explosive, is used to produce an exothermic reaction. It builds great heat, but little outward gas pressure. It is used to bore through metals over time, as well as in a form of welding.
Do you really think that steel heated to over 2,000F over time by burning av-gas will not soften? Bin Laden counted on it. He said that he was expecting that the upper floors would collapse. The more complete destruction from the inertia of material from above was just an added bonus for him.
Look at pictures of steel being worked at a mill for a reference point. Now take that softened steel and place a gazillion pounds of building on it. What happens? I bet you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:32 PM

I know what thermite is, what it does and how it does it.

SO you think it was put on the steel beams 3 weeks earlier and ignited by kerosene and a catalyst?



Little Hawk, It matters on what and who an opinion is based. No matter which expert or scientist you quote, there will always be those who think their expert is better than yours. Reasonable people will consider the source, motive and facts presented by such researchers.

Contrary to your momentary frustration that it doesn't matter, it does matter. Lies and rumors may move near the speed of light but the truth stays put.

At least framing issues as coincidence or curiosities is a passive way of talking about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:55 PM

I had the epiphany similar to LH when I was a child. At age six I saw the Nazi fims of Aushwitz where woem were being prepped and stripped for their shower executions. I saw Babba Yar. By age ten I was conditioned in school to prepare for nuclear blasts.

Prior to the CUban Missle Crises I had a vivid dream of a national announcment of an iminent nuclear holocaust. I saw many neighbors coming out their front door instead of hiding in the basements. They were all shouting various things but the one thing they were all saying was blaming each other. Eveyone was blaming everyone else right up until a great white flash faded them into invisibility without contrast.

I expect that is essentially what the existential end will be for many people. Blaming each other right or wrong, correct or absurd, more and more furiously right up until the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:20 PM

I know this has been done to death many times.
One difference now is that the government has changed.
You would have to believe that Obama was too stupid to see the truth or that he had some reason not to destroy Republicanism for the next 20 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:27 PM

Yup. And what a waste of energy it is.

"This is the grave of John L. Gray, who died defending his right ot way. He was right, dead right, as he sped along. But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong."

I'm very interested in the 911 events, and what may have happened there and by whom...but I am not going to talk about it on this forum. Not any longer. There'd be absolutely no point in doing so, It wouldn't help anything or anyone, it would just screw up part of my day and make me feel worse than I might have felt if I'd resisted getting drawn into this little cauldron (witch's brew?).

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:30 PM

I've been angrier than usual myself.

Maybe its the pollen.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:53 PM

GO READ THE SITES the sites that Keith A provided links for!.... read them carefully.... read them again.... think about them....digest them. IF you do that honestly, you cannot possibly entertain serious concerns about #$&*%^@ 'curiosities'!

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:03 PM

Ah, yes! The deep satisfaction of finally persuading ALL of those here who do not see it your way to change their minds and embrace the TRUTH... ;-) How Quixotic. It's enough to cause a man to print in bold and extra-large type.

And it won't change anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:59 PM

Forget it, Bill. They're postmodernists.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:09 PM

When you all have settled this, let me know.

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:41 PM

**grin**... no, I don't suppose it WILL change anything, because no one who has internalized all these doubts will bother to look...but at least there's large, bold type...pointing 'the way'.


(oh,,,BTW, I have read all THEIR pages and watched the videos and seen "Loose Change")

Subject: RE: BS: Bin Laden and the 9/11 inside job
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 May 11 - 08:28 PM

I freely admit to being of the "Let it Happen" persuasion regarding 9/11. I do not believe it was an "inside job" but I do believe information which could have prevented the attacks was intentionally overlooked in hopes that a terrorist attack would galvanize US public opinion in favor of attacking Iraq. I believe the person who saw to it that said information was ignored was then vice president Dick Cheney.

The only way in which Bin Laden's death has changed my view of 9/11 is that I'm sorry Cheney wasn't in the room with him so they could go to Hell together.