BS: Justice US-style for Leal?

Subject: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 01:33 PM

As things stand right now, Humberto Leal Garcia, on death row in Texas, is to be lethally injected at 7pm local. It's an interesting case.

In 2004 the International Court of Justice ruled that the Leal case should be reheard along with some 50 others in the US. Obama and even George W have urged the Texas authorities to respect the ICJ. But governor Rick Perry has said that Texas does not have to heed "a foreign court."

My guess is that sanity will prevail over redneck hubris. But it makes one wonder whether the rule of law has even yet penetrated the southern states, Texas in particular. And what kind of constitution allows elements of a sovereign state to over-rule that state's obligations under international law?

Of course, Rick Perry's stance sits well with the US's refusal to accept jurisdiction of the ICC. But it sits oddly with the US enthusiasm for arraigning others before the international courts.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 01:47 PM

Uh, the United States has it's own justice system Peter K. I think most of us believe it serves very well.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 01:59 PM

Well, no, not exactly. Obama and others have urged Texas to abide by the treaty between the US and Mexico giving accused criminals in either nation the right to contact their respective consuls when arrested. This was not done in this case - or in a number of others in the US. The Federal government of the US has no power to compel a state to comply with directives of the ICJ, whether it wanted to or not. BTW, I assume that you realize that the ICJ and the ICC are separate entities, since your post juxtaposes the two a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 02:02 PM

I'm sure that's true if you're talking about your fellow middle-class whites, DougR. And it is you and your complacent, hypocritical fellow-thinkers that earn the contempt which is directed at your country from most parts of the world.

I should have included a link: White House seeks delay.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 02:10 PM

Yes, they're separate, artrooks. But if the US federation cannot require its constituent states to recognise the ICJ then the US is failing to recognise the ICJ just as it refuses to recognise the ICC. When it comes to international law it would seem that the US mentality is that the gun rules. So nothing new there.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 02:19 PM

I don't believe in the death penalty at all, but it exists as the ultimate punishment in many states and for certain federal crimes. But Texas takes it to the extreme. I think I've read that in most years, Texas executes more criminals than does the rest of the US combined.
When he was running for President, George W. Bush seemed to take pride in the number of people executed in Texas when he was governor there.

And although the President and the rest of the US may oppose the execution of Leal, they're not much they can do to stop Texas from carrying out the execution.

In the realm of criminal law, the states have almost absolute control over what happens within their boundaries. The U.S. Supreme Court has been able to suspend executions sporadically and to stop certain individual executions; but in the end, the states have prevailed. Capital punishment is very popular in most regions of the US, and I can't imagine it being abolished here any time soon. And no, I can't imagine Texas bowing to the authority of an international court. Maybe some other states, but not Texas - and not many states in the South. The Northerners just think they won the War Between the States.


-Joe-

So, what's the ICC??

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 04:01 PM

International Criminal Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 04:06 PM

"the United States has its own justice system"

The same justice system that preserved the institution of slavery for decades after civilised countries had abolished it, and now does the same for the death penalty...

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 04:10 PM

My guess is that sanity will prevail over redneck hubris.

Don't bet a great deal of money on it. Perry is a real piece of work.
And Texas won't admit it lost the Civil War.h.

I'm sure that's true if you're talking about your fellow middle-class whites, DougR.

Who else could you possibly think Doug was talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 04:19 PM

The same justice system that preserved the institution of slavery for decades after civilised countries had abolished it, and now does the same for the death penalty...

You bet your sweet ass, Kevin & Texas is damn proud of it, too! If Texax could fine a way, they'd likely re-establish slavery, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 05:51 PM

The US, like the UK, is a dualist state so international obligations are not binding until internally implemented. It doesn't make the sickening Texan regime any better, but it does make it legally comprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 01:37 PM

Thanks for keeping us all abreast of international versus national jurisdiction, Richard.
I happen to be a left/center US citizen who believes the death penalty is warranted in certain cases where the issue resolving the judgement is beyond a shadow of a doubt.
I love that the British continue to adopt a holier than thou attitude regarding slavery when British Slaveships were the principle means of transporting slaves to this country for 200 years, and British colonial strategy essentially established the plantation culture of the South, from which they reaped the rewards of the cotton and tobacco trade, even after they "saw the light" and found "amazing grace".

I don't believe this had any impact on British-sponsored creation of an opium-addicted subclass in China which also fit comfortably into British trade schemes. So why don't you do us a favor and replace some of the panes in your glass house before you grab another handful of stones?

Texas is no bellwether for American thought and belief, either, and I don't defend what happens there. But I find the internationalist sanctimony about it with the accompanying tendency to lecture nausea-inducing.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 02:01 PM

On 7th of July, 2011 Humberto Leal Garcia, Jr. was put to death by lethal injection.

He raped, tortured and murdeded a 16 year old girl in San Antonio, Texas.

There was not doubt about his guilt and the punishment fit the crime. It was also carried out in a manor the is recognized internationally as humane.

There is no way that we can allow US citizens to face the death penalty and exclude foreign nationals. Equal justice for all or you have no justice.

Who gives a shit about what is published in the UK Guardian. It twists truth until it can't be recognized. The assholes at the Guardian try to make everything in the US does evil. They journalistic terrorists.

As bad as the British tabloid press is, the Guardian and its ilk are worse because they divide people, stir up anger and prevent reasonable discourse that may unit people or find real solutions to real problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 02:34 PM

It was also carried out in a manor the is recognized internationally as humane.

"internationally" means Texas and the Taliban agree about that, maybe.

Most of the world doesn't regard any form of execution as humane.

There is no way that we can allow US citizens to face the death penalty and exclude foreign nationals.

That is not what this case is about.

What happens next is that other countries with similarly barbaric system of criminal justice now get to look for an excuse to execute Americans with similar disregard for due process.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 02:43 PM

Where does the (UK) Guardian come into this, pdq? The link I posted myself goes to an NPR page reporting an appeal for a stay which came from the (US) White House. But it's fairly clear you don't understand the issue here.

The ICJ was persuaded that if Leal had been allowed due process - which should have included proper access to his consulate early in the proceedings - he might have been better represented at his subsequent trial, sufficient to ensure that he would have been sentenced to some punishment less than death. (Yes, even Texas is picky about which murderers to execute, consistent with the American preference for despatching blacks rather than whites or anyone else who can afford a good lawyer.)

The ICJ judgment did not in any sense exonorate Leal but merely asked that his case be reconsidered. George W and Obama, among others, asked Texas to respect international law and allow a stay. i realise how upsetting it must be for you, pdq, when pinko liberals like that start poking their noses in. But I can't quite see how that warrants your rant against the Guardian. Oh, and I hope you won't start whining if some US citizen abroad, finding himself in trouble, is similarly denied access to the US diplomatic service.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 02:46 PM

He said he was guilty. He never said he should not be executed.

Whats the beef? WTF does it have to do with cotton or tobacco or opium in China or the War Between the States?

According to the local newspaper, Huntsville Item, Garcia accepted responsibility for his crimes and appeared remorseful prior to his death. While he was lying strapped to a gurney in the death house, he apologized for his actions and said he wanted Christ in his life.

I've hurt a lot of people, Leal said, according to the Item, I know Christ has forgiven me, and I accept his forgiveness. I am sorry for the victim's family for what I did. May they forgive me. Let's get this show on the road, Warden.

I suppose foreign counsel would have reversed the fact that he was guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 02:58 PM

Hey Saw, I didnt bring up slavery in the first place. It was used as part of a specious argument that accused the United States of general barbarism. I was trying to show that not only is it specious, but is spouted from people who have a claim to a higher degree of civilization based on no real fabric of fact.

As to Garcia, what his opinion was couldn't have less of a bearing on the justice of the outcome. That's my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 02:59 PM

It was also carried out in a manner that is recognized internationally as humane.

That is possibly true for China and Iran...

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 03:07 PM

Humberto Leal Garcia, Jr. had the right to contact a Mexican consul. That is part of a treaty between the US and Mexico and does not apply to other nationals unless their country has similar provisions. He never asked to talk to them. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 03:13 PM

I don't believe in capital punishment, the organized system of a governmental body stepping in and in cold blood doing what most murderers do in hot blood. The discomfitting fact that the US as a whole shares its propensity for death dealing with some countries we consider barbaric is somewhat jarring.

From what I have read, I don't doubt but that Leal did the crime for which he was convicted. The fact remains that life without possibility of parole in this country or the release of the man into Mexican hands would have been a much harsher punishment than ending it for him yesterday in one swell foop. I understand that Mexican jails and prisons are not cushy and imprisonment in the US is not a picnic either.

As for Texas and its habit of meting death in a wide and prideful swath, there is little any sane person can say in its defense. I've read that since execution was re-legalized by the US Supreme Court in 1976 Texas has executed more than 470 people- none of whom, according to GWB, were innocent.

pah, I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 03:39 PM

The fact remains that life without possibility of parole in this country or the release of the man into Mexican hands would have been a much harsher punishment than ending it for him yesterday in one swell foop.
So you are endorsing a harsher punishment? And claiming the less harsh punishment is "barbaric", Ebbie?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 03:42 PM

"So you are endorsing a harsher punishment? And claiming the less harsh punishment is "barbaric", Ebbie?" Lonesome J

Absolutely. Rape and torture and murder are not playground behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 03:45 PM

"And claiming the less harsh punishment is "barbaric" I should add that that is a bit of sophistry, E.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM

"Rape and torture and murder are not playground behavior."

Exactly, and an extended time out is insufficient punishment for one who commits them.

I think the "lifetime sentence is worse" argument is not believed by anyone, particularly criminals, or murderers wouldn't plea bargain to get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 03:54 PM

There are much better ways to punish. A life in prison to reflect and to know every day of your life why you are locked up to me is effective. I just cannot at any time think that it is ok to execute anyone. Murder by law or murder by criminal act is still murder. I wish it would end forever in this country.

I am no bleeding heart as others may call me. But two wrongs never make a right. It is revenge and nothing more ...

Did this guy do a horrible act.. sure did ... and needed to be put away forever. Killing him in the name of society .. it is wrong I think. Others are entitled to their views also ..

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 04:00 PM

I agree with you, olddude, and I know Ebbie is a thoughtful and reasonable person. We disagree, and this is a hot button issue, like abortion, like gay marriage, and it tends to get people stirred up emotionally. Terms like "barbarian", "bleeding heart", and others get called up because people have a hard time debating these issues from a rational stand point.
I don't think they persuade anyone, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 04:01 PM

When I said I agree, I meant agree with your point that others are entitled to their views ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 06:32 PM

The issue here isn't actually the rights and wrongs of capital punishment, but that in this case by killing this man the state of Texas has caused the United States Government to be in breach of a binding treaty commitment.

I can't see how this can be other than an act of treason on the part of the Governor of Texas.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 06:48 PM

I'm pretty sure that breaking a treaty is not treason, in either the US or the UK. I'm also pretty sure that Perry has a legal basis for what he is doing and I am pretty sure that any major country that signs a treaty with the US is aware of "states rights" issues when they sign the treaty. As long as perry is Governor, Texas will suffer the consequences the next time it wants to extradite someone from a foreign country.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 06:51 PM

Leal was brought the US by his parents when he was 2 years old from Mexico. He was 38 years old at the time of his execution. Do you have any idea how many undocumented people are living in this country? Should they be exempted from the laws of the country in which they reside and have resided for the vast majority of their lives? Or should they be punished for minor indisgressions and only become "foreign nationals" when they commit murder and are exposed to capital punishment?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 07:20 PM

pdq, off-hand I can't think of any country outside the US that has rated execution by injection as "humane" but I'm open to correction. ertgainly the story of how that method was introduced is almost as grotesque as the saga behind the first execution by electric chair (also in the US of course).

Leej, I'm sorry if my "British take" was part of what provoked your sharp retort, much of which I go along with. But the US a civilised society? Come on! :-)

The States stance on capital punishment certainly puts it ell outside any prevailing norms in the developed world, though I wouldn't rush to use that as a measure of civilisation. On factor that I find particularly odd is that the US is the only country anywhere that abolished the death penalty (de facto if not de jure) and then re-introduced it, albeit in a minority of states.

From memory, executions ended in the US in consequence of a couple of Supreme Court judgments. It was the execution of Gary Gilmore (for which he himself was the most vociferous advocate) that started the reverse (backward as I would call it) trend.

I also find it surprising that many advocates of judicial execution seem to be devout Christians. If I was a Christian I would find it very hard to reconcile that creed with support for capital punishment, which often seems to embrace a substantial element of vengeance.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 07:37 PM

Lonesome EJ:

You are right I didn't read your entire post. I apologize.

The only things that have any bearing is was he guilty or not and he said he was guilty.

The other thing is the death penalty. He did not oppose it.

Where was Osama's counsel? Who counseled those 3 dead pirates?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: olddude
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 07:49 PM

Where was Osama's counsel? Who counseled those 3 dead pirates?

They were acts of war, different completely I think. One has the right to defend with deadly force .. by the way, i thought it would have been better to capture osama .. Pirates had a gun to the head of the captain, deadly force was justified

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 08:37 PM

They were acts of war

... That exemplifies the chasm in values between the US admin and the rest of the civilised world.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 10:43 AM

can't see how this can be other than an act of treason on the part of the Governor of Texas.

Texas hasn't progressed much since 1861. Secession & taking up arms against the U.S. Government were acts of treason as well. So pretty much business as usual.

As for Rick Perry, he's a real piece of work. One Example: Issuing an official proclamation recently to stop the drought in Texas. Do a web search on this guy. You'll be amazed & sickened.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:25 AM

Not that I have any particular regard for Perry, but issuing a proclamation for "days of prayer" to end the drought isn't all that outlandish in the Bible Belt.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:32 AM

Did it work?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:43 AM

He is a contender for President.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:00 PM

"Did it work?" Guest/999

Nope. It got worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:07 PM

Thanks, Eb. Ya jus' never know. Another presidential hopeful bites the dust.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM

If you think he made the proclamation to make it rain, you don't know much about "conservative" politicians. He made it to kiss ass and to get "reality" based journalists to attack him.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:50 PM

"Conservative"??

Perry is a devout fundagelical Christian"[sic]- probably gives thanks to Jesus every time he's able to execute someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 01:36 PM

It's not treason for a nation to be in breach of a treaty. But to act in such a way that a nation is in breach of a treaty, and to expose the nation and other nationals to possible adverse consequences as a result is arguably an act of treason.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 10:51 AM

No, this is Texas justice. Perry is a secessionist.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice US-style for Leal?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 08:08 AM

US policy (viz Croatia, Kosovo) is that secesssion is a Good Thing....