BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles

Subject: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:45 AM

Next month I am planning to finally get round to replacing the floor tiles in my kitchen.

One part of the process I am not sure about is preparing the floor after I rip up the old tiles. I know there is at least one indentation in the floor that needs to be filled.

Whats the easiest way to do this - I don't particulary want to mess around with mixing cement. Is there a producr I can use that comes out of a tin, and what's the best/easiest way to ensure that the floor is sufficiently level whe I put the new tiles down. I know the 'easiest' way would be to employ a builder, but my budget won't go that far.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:57 AM

There is a product on the market by the name of "Ditra". It is an uncoupling membrane made by Schluter Systems and is designed to go between the subfloor and tiles. It is purported to have many advantages over other underlayments. One of it's drawbacks is cost -- it can cost as much as the tiles. Info available here.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:58 AM

A heat gun is handy for helping remove old floor tiles.

Sometimes one adds a new luan surface, quarter inch thick, screwing it down, sinking and filling where the screw heads are. Some use stainless steel staples instead of screws but the screws hold better. If the subfloor is still sound, filling in the voids with a leveling compound makes the best sense to me.

For leveling one could shim with shingles instead of using a leveling compound but the leveling compound is probably better. Of course there is the question of why the current floor isn't level. Are parts of it sinking because of rotting sills? My mother's floor is so unlevel that we gave up leveling; we'll eventually tear down the entire rotted kitchen wing and build anew on a concrete slab.

Lot's of luck!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:52 AM

Charley asks a good question: "Why is that indentation there?"

When we bought our house (built in 1913), there was a sunken area under the stove. Turned out termites had damaged the joist under it. The problem was easily fixed with a sister board in the basement, but if we hadn't fixed that, the floor never would have stayed level.

(Never believe the people who tell you that the important thing about a house is "Location, location, location."

And when people say "They don't build 'em like they used to," I answer, "Thank God for that.")

On the other hand, it could be something simple, like that something very heavy once stood there. If that's it, I would just go to a hardware store and ask for advice. There could be a nifty new product that will get you fixed up in no time.

I put down self-stick floor tiles maybe 8 years ago, and they still look great. I'm glad I did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:56 PM

I thought this was about some guy bragging about...never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:58 PM

Tut tut

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM

Are you mixing up the adhesive, using a thinset or versabond (has a little more give than thinset, but I still have cracks in the tiles now)? Sometimes you can go over the area with thinset and fill that spot level. Do that first, then use the rest of your bucket somewhere else in the room. After the leveling patch has dried then treat it like floor when you get to that point and put down your adhesive mix over it like usual. This works best if the spot to level (the indent) isn't a very large section. Otherwise mix up some of the specialized floor leveling product and pour it over the area.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 04:43 PM

My younger son recently installed ceramic tiles on our kitchen floor and back hall and in a half bath near the back door. Since the subfloor is ship-lapped with ply over, leveling wasn't necessary.

Removing the old floor covering, however (vinyl), was a chore. Heat and scrapers did the job, but it took several days.

Cost for wood, the various compositions and ceramic tiles came out about the same, so we went with the ceramic. Very satisfied.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 05:05 PM

SRS, what do you mean 'put down the adhesive'?

Here's what you do: pull the paper off the self-stick tile, smoosh into place, sit back and admire. Discard paper.

Being a perfectionist, I paid attention to the design on the tile, not wanting accidental alignments to ruin their fake randomness. (There were four or five natural-looking designs in the box.) Most people wouldn't bother.

Tips: 1. the floor must be nice and clean. Watch out for nails that are trying to come out of the old floor, for whatever neurotic reason of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 05:21 PM

"Self-levelling" compounds are available for concrete but I dunno about wood. As for any of the commonly used stuff, what matters most is what it is applied with. If ya don't have the right tools for the job, it doesn't matter what ya use on accounta it will come out crappy unless yer REALLY lucky. Spare NO expense on the proper tools.

Oh... yeah... many thin coats are better than a thick coat with most stuff.

Keep us informed about what you use, how you use it and what the results are eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 05:27 PM

Rap, you and I think alike. Is two of us more than one forum can tolerate?

And Spaw hasn't even commented yet...

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 07:55 PM

I'm in. I thought he had given up on women.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:52 PM

Laying those little one or two inch tiles is pretty easy, but laying those big 18" by 18" mothers will kill a chicken deader'n hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Gurney
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:55 PM

Levelling compound, cement based, like Gnu says. Ready mixed, you just wet it. After that, it depends on what kind of tiles you install. You should get instructions on the pack. They may be self-adhesive.
Cork or vinyl, I use a spirit based adhesive, ceramic tiles need a cement based adhesive, and for ceramic over a wood floor, you need an underlay/overlay of fibrolite/cement board (heavily) nailed down, assuming that they weren't ceramic before.

Any levelling compound other than cement-based would need to be twin-pot, chemical setting.

Set the job out carefully, lay first in a straight line down the middle, then one side first, the other after, maybe leave the cut tiles around the edge until tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:04 AM

Maybe I missed it, but do we know whether you're putting down ceramic tile or vinyl? (or maybe something in between?)

The "home decor" shows on late night TV have been showing - and re-showing - a demonstration on laying down ceramic tile and/or wood laminate in a couple of different situations. They advocated using a "leveling compound" that's stirred to a thin slurry and flows to level. I didn't make note of product names but more than one kind was mentioned. Your local lumber yard should recognize what the stuff is.

At least one of the compositions used didn't require mixing (all in one can), but stirring was recommended, and I think a couple called for adding water to thin.

I would expect that on a wood subfloor a "barrier membrane" would be advised before applying a liquid leveler, but requirements shouldn't be too critical, and I don't really know whether one is recommended. I believe they poured the leveller directly onto a concrete floor in at least one case.

I think the ceramic tile was laid directly on the leveler material, but for a wood laminate floor they added a "pad board" under the wood.

For vinyl tile, the usual thing is to just lay down an "underlayment board." If the dips and dents are fairly small, a HARD TEMPERED Masonite specifically called "underlayment board" about 1/4" or 3/8" thick may be recommended, but for bigger gaps a thicker high-resin chipboard composition is usual, and is available in thicknesses from about 5/8" and up.

The Masonite-like underlayment is very hard and the last time I put some down I probably bent about as many nails as I managed to drive through straight on a first try. (The recommended Underlayment Nails are hardened and ribbed, usually, and sometimes break instead of bending.)

The thicker "looks like chipboard" stuff, because of the high resin content is "very dense" and a 4 ft x 8 ft sheet of 5/8" thick (a popular size) may weigh 60 - 80 lb or more. (I don't like to carry more than one end at a time, so I'm always havin' to go back and bring the other end along.) Since it raises the floor level, you will want to consider whether all the cabinet doors and drawers will still work.

It may not be the best place to get your stuff, but if there's one nearby Home Depot probably will have a class - or make one up - where you can get the real poop on what you want to do. Although you do run into people who have more opinions than skill just about anywhere, I have found that I don't have to explain near as many things there as at some nominally comparable material sellers.

After I've convinced the sales people that they really do have what I'm looking for, and make them dig it out, I get a lot of "oh, so that's what that's for" just about everywhere I try to buy stuff. I guess it goes with being "experienced."(?)

n.b. I also learned recently that Home Depot will give military and honorably discharged veterans a 10% discount, but you do have to show them your discharge papers each time you ask for the knockdown. (I assume that's just US military and vets.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:42 PM

Oh, and before laying down the tile be sure to remove the cat to a secure location. Otherwise you may trip over the "bump" in the new floor.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:48 PM

Floor levelers... Just add water... Have a big dry-wall knife (12 inches) and work fast... This stuff sets up quick...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:42 PM

It's ceramic tile, and part of the question was "I don't particulary want to mess around with mixing cement. Is there a producr I can use that comes out of a tin"?

If you're doing wall tiles, there are adhesives that come in a big tub with a tight fitting lid that is pre mixed and about the consistency of shortening. You don't need as thick a layer of it and this is good at sticking on those vertical surfaces. Thinset/versabond is a chemical and cement kind of mix that will also work on walls (I've seen it done) but mostly used on floors. The bags are heavy and you need a good solid large bucket, a gallon measure (I just marked off lines for quarts on an old vinegar gallon jug) and a stirrer, like the five-gallon paint sticks they give away at Home Depot. For the second step of wiping up off of any tile surfaces you'll need a sharp tool of some sort to get the adhesive out of the little trough where you'll run your grout and a bucket of water and a big sponge to wipe any adhesive off of the top of the tiles.

PUT THE WATER IN THE BUCKET FIRST, and don't put too much. You'd be surprised how little water it takes to moisten the thinset properly. Depending on how much you're doing at a time, if you mix up enough thinset that is moistened by a quart or two, that's going to cover several square yards of tile. You need to pour in the water, then pour in enough of the versabond (what I prefer) and mix it promptly. If it's a little runny you can add more dry as long as not to much time has passed. It sets up some after you've mixed it together so it needs to be a little moister than the perfect mixing consistency when you finish mixing. After a few minutes if you give it another mix you'll find it is just "fluffy" enough to scoop on the trowel and work with the tools.

Always wash out everything completely at the end of the day, rinse the cement off of all of your tools, out of the bucket, and clean up and drips or drops.

They offer free classes most weekends at Home Depot in these kinds of projects. I use a wet saw to cut my tiles, but I also have various nippers and a tile cutter. I did about 1500sf of floor in my house plus the kitchen backsplashes and the shower surrounds (with lovely Mexican tile) in both bathrooms. The bucket of white adhesive was used on those wall tiles.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:43 AM

thanks for the advice....

I am planning to lay self adhesive floor tiles. I am assuming that the floor underneath is cement or concrete, and the 'indentation'looks like something heavy may have been dropped there.

I should have also said I am in UK so I may not be able to get hold of US branded products.

I am now getting a bit apprehensive about taking up the old tiles - I was thinking it may be a quick job!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:09 AM

The quickest way that I've found to take up vinyl tiles is to 'shave' them up with a garden spade or a specialised tool from a hire centre, finishing the last awkward bits with a hot-air-gun and a strong (not thin and cheap) scraper. Ventilate with the heat. You could also try mineral turps to soften the old adhesive.
On a wooden floor you have to be careful, of course.
Small indentations in floors can be filled with builders bog, similar to car bog, but that is an expensive twin-pot, so there is mixing involved. Large filling is a cement floor-leveller job, which is only available (here) in 20kg bags, so expensive and wasteful for small jobs.

If the concrete floor is in direct contact with the ground, I'd redo the painted seal. Talk to your paint specialist about that.
Any irregularities will inevitably show eventually as you walk on it.

Buy or borrow kneepads.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:57 PM

Easy job - Lay the new vinyl on top of the old. Only a couple of mm thick so no issue with door clearance etc. unless it is very tight. For the dent fill it with rubber solution or liquid adhesive (evo stick or similar) until it self levels and sets hard. Make sure the new joins are well away from the old ones.

Only thing is, if you go that route, it becomes twice as hard to take it up should you ever want to. Ask, in your best Catherine Tate voice, 'Am I bovvered?'

Good luck.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 05:18 PM

Vinyl on top of old vinyl can be okay if the existing vinyl is smooth.

As for the indentaion, is it a "problem". If not, I wouldn't mess with it. Then again, I am a injuneer and I normally don't care a WHOLE lot about looks.

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:06 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Laying Kitchen Tiles
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:25 AM

Wouldn't be easier to pay somebody who knows what he/she is doing to do the job.

DIY to me is something done by a specialist - usually cheaper in the long run!