BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:23 AM

Lox, it seems that Breivik holds strongly anti-Muslim views, which (even though Norway has recently been in NATO military actions against certain Muslim factions) he feels the governing party of Norway does not support, in particular vis-a-vis the question of Palestinian statehood, and probably Norway's immigration policies (I'm guessing on that one).

But your point is well taken. There is no apparent involvement of Muslims in these terorist events, either as attackers or victims. As I mentioned, I believe the hitherto-unknown "Helpers of Jihad" group is a fabrication of Breivik and his cronies.

W-P

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:19 AM

Through the idea of extremists who kill people to prove their point.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:19 AM

It doesn't matter one whit if he's a run-of-the-mill psycho or a fundamentalist Christian follower of Odin.

Well over 80 children are dead and 7 more are dead in Osolo. How many are physically wounded isn't yet reported. How many are mentally wounded, well, what's the population of Norway?

Every kid and adult who was on that island should be in counseling right now, because PTSD has already set in.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:19 AM

Sure lox.

It seems clear to me that his motivation was hatred of Islam. He was punishing the Labor government for not taking up the fight.
The killer wrote this...

Hagen said that if Israel loses in the Middle East, Europe will succumb to Islam next. He felt that Christians should support Israel and oppose Islamic inroads into Europe. In an unprecedented step, a group of Muslim ambassadors to Norway blasted Carl I. Hagen in a letter to the newspaper Aftenposten, claiming that he had offended 1.3 billion Muslims around the world. Other Norwegian politicians quickly caved in and condemned Hagen. Maybe Norway, "the country of peace" and home to the Nobel Peace Prize, will get along just fine with Islam, "the religion of peace."

Although some political leaders such as Mr. Carl I. Hagen have a clear understanding of what's going on, they are unfortunately few and far between. Most European media commentators are hostile to the Jewish state of Israel, partly because they get angry with anybody defending themselves against Islamic Jihad instead of surrendering, and partly because they want to project their own feelings of guilt from the Holocaust onto Israel by recasting the Jews as villains and the Palestinians as victims.

French filmmaker Pierre Rehov made the film Suicide Killers where he interviewed the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. He warns that we are facing "a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization," a "culture of hatred in which the uneducated are brainwashed to a level where their only solution in life becomes to kill themselves and kill others in the name of a God. I hear a mother saying 'Thank God, my son is dead.' Her son had became a shaheed, a martyr, which for her was a greater source of pride than if he had became an engineer, a doctor or a winner of the Nobel Prize. [...] They don't see the innocent being killed, they only see the impure that they have to destroy."

Rehov believes that we are dealing with "a new form of Nazism" that it is going to spread to Europe and the United States, too.

Spanish journalist Sebastian Villar Rodriguez claims that Europe died in Auschwitz: "We assassinated 6 million Jews in order to end up bringing in 20 million Muslims!" Yet in 2007, Ciempozuelos, a small Madrid suburb, refused to commemorate Holocaust Day and opted instead to commemorate the 'Day of Palestinian Genocide.' In Britain following Muslim pressure, the Bolton Council scrapped its Holocaust Memorial Day event. The Muslim Council of Britain asked for a Genocide Day to protest the Israeli "genocide" against the Palestinians. The secretary-general of the MCB, Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, has earlier compared the situation of Muslims in Britain to Jews under Hitler.

We thus have the absurd situation where the Nazis of today are presented as Jews while the Jews are presented as Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:12 AM

Can someone please explain how Moslems and Islam are relevant to this discussion?

Any factual connection would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:09 AM

Thanks for posting that link Jack. Potentially ties a lot of threads together.

For those who didn't look, it is an article describing Norwegian government support for the impending introduction to the UN of a proposal for a Palestinian state.

Like the Norwegian government, (which has and/or is participating in military actions in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq), nothing particularly radical.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:59 AM

Jerusalem post 7/18/2011

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:53 AM

The Man Who Believes He Is Right


The shock and denial of the waiting parents is hell incarnate, waiting for word of their child as police stand before a curtain.

They already know that the odds of thier child being murdered or gravely injured is not 1 in 4 but virtually certain.

The pain and guilt is unbearable. If only I... What if I... Why?
Who? What if they...What if you.. What if I... and they break down and cry.

The opinions of all of us turn to anger. We yelled the killer is Muslim, no the killer is Jewish, no the killer is Christian, no the killer is right wing extremist. And we are lost, bickering among ourselves.

With all the reflection of research with science and religious study, justice will never satisfy; we fall into a loneliness and depression, and feel we can no longer cry.

His guns can light up the world. When he shoots he does not feel powerless. Still he feels every insult that's hurled. He thinks he has everything to gain if you could feel his pain and that is why he is so dangerous.

We will point to patterns of hate and we'll try to accept our fate but no one or thing will change the fight of the bestial proud predator in the man who believes he is Right.






Don Hakman 7, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:19 AM

Wikipedia: (Total population is approx 5 million)

Among non-Christian religions, Islam is the largest with the population of about 150,000.[114] It is practiced mainly by Somali, Arab, Albanian, and Turkish immigrants, as well as Norwegians of Pakistani descent.

The article also notes that although the Church of Norway is the official state religion which includes 79% of the population, Norwegians are among the least religiously adherent people in the world, 20% consider their religious faith important to them and under 5% attend church weekly.

Even under present circumstances, I think I could enjoy spending some time there...
W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:07 AM

Teribus, Are you saying that 25% of the people in Oslo are Muslim immigrants?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:05 AM

No death penalty in Norway and the maximum possible prison sentence to impose is 20 years. He can however be classified as a danger to society and held under review and that could possibly mean that he will never be released.

The "immigrant muslim community" of Oslo amounts to 25% of the population and right from the start of reporting this incident the authorities were a pains to recommend restraint until facts were known. The fact that the shootings were being carried out by a native Norwegian was very quick in being released.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:45 AM

So appalling it's hard to express. Makes me think of many youth conferences I went to--the beautiful tiny island location made it a death trap for this politically motivated psycho. I am still thinking there must have been more than one shooter (consider how the death toll suddenly, dramatically rose last night as more bodies were discovered), which news reports have only hinted at.

Don't forget, early news reports about a crisis like this are notoriously inaccurate--and not just the first hours, often the inaccuracies continue for days once they're fed into the media amplifier. Eyewitness accounts are important but not often inaccurate as well--we as a species are not good at dispassionate observation of confusing and terrifying events.

My guess is the "Helpers of Jihad" which claimed to have launched the attack are none other than Anders Breivik and his accomplices. Just an early disinformation component of their plan, both a red herring and an attempt to provoke action against Muslims.

Terrorizing the next generation of moderate liberals and their parents--who will think twice about the next time their kids are invited to a political event. This is so very disgusting.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:43 AM

I believe that Number 6 is right.

But I look a 1.5 billion Muslims, all but a small few are peaceful. I look at the about the same number of Christians and most or them are peaceful too.

I think to understand this man, to understand this motivation, we must look at the hate he expresses and how he expresses it.

I think the security forces of the West will be taking a closer look at a lot of right wing bloggers and posters to Zionist blogs.

Perhaps the myth that Muslims have some special kind of hate that "Christians" and "Jews" do not will finally be put to rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:36 AM

I read a bit more. He has some odd opinions on science and history that he seems to have a need to express. Such as "Why Asians didn't invent space travel." He often berates Western governments for not doing enough about the "Muslim threat." "Muslim" immigration seems to be a main concern. But he doesn't like Mexicans either.

He may or may not be a fundamentalist Christian, but that is certainly not the direction of his writing of the websites he wrote for.

He also wrote an article about "Terrorist" groupies. No doubt he is a psychopath but it is hard to deny that the attacks were in response to what he believed was excessive tolerance of Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:29 AM

Hate manifests itself in humans of all relgious beliefs.

the same can be said for the madness of revenge and the hypocrisy of finger pointing.

I'm am sickened and repulsed at it all.

can we ever find peace?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:20 AM

"Norway killer a fundamentalist Christian
Norwegian police say the 32 year-old who gunned down at least 84 youths attending a camp is a right-wing Christian"

http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=149068

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:15 AM

Read what he has written.

He is a bigot who voices his hate. I've read six of his articles thus far. I see promotion of Israel and hatred of all Muslims, no mention of God or Christ, no hint of Christian values.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:15 AM

A crackpot extremist, a lover of extremism...

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: maeve
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:12 AM

Christian in name only, bobad. This is a insane, evil person.

Regards,

Maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:06 AM

"A hater of Muslims a lover of Zionism"

A fundamentalist Christian, a lover of Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: maeve
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:55 AM

Lovely Norway, I am so sorry for your terrible loss.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:43 AM

Here are some of the writings of the killer. A hater of Muslims A lover of Zionism

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:13 AM

Some blame must surely go to the right wing media, which targets and relies on vitriol and invective for influencing fragile intellects.

I was in Norway (in Oslo in fact) a couple of weeks ago. The Norwegians are really nice people, and their country is very beautiful. it a really relaxed sort of place. Very expensive. i guess when you have a cost of living so high - there must be an awful lot of very resentful losers somewhere in the landscape.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:27 AM

"A horrendous act, deserving of capital punishment, which I'm afraid he won't receive."

No way - he deserves to live with this for the rest of his hopefully very long life.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:17 AM

He must be a total psychopath in the true sense of the word. But what reasons did he formulate in his head for these acts? What did he hope to achieve by this wicked carnage? I can't see his 'logic', was it political, personal vindictiveness, pleasure in killing? He must have planned it for weeks, so it wasn't an impulsive act. I find it completely chilling. The poor bereaved families, my heart aches for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:14 AM

"A horrendous act, deserving of capital punishment, which I'm afraid he won't receive."

If they change their laws for him, become more brutal, that is a victory for him. Lets hope that the Government of Norway is less cowardly than George W Bush and the Congress under him, and sticks to its principles.

Though they will have to rethink their security protocols.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:08 AM

Latest reports on BBC TV are 7 dead in Oslo, and 84 on the island, but they say there are still some youngsters unaccounted for.

A horrendous act, deserving of capital punishment, which I'm afraid he won't receive.

The effect upon the population of a country where the streets are among the safest in the world is incalculable, and the loss of all those children is so awful that words just aren't capable of expressing how one feels about such crimes.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:59 AM

It seems to me that he may have acted alone but that he probably had accomplices in the preparation and planning.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:51 AM

"Deliberately designed to spread fear and so political change."

The Norwegian Prime Minister was very clear in his press conference yesterday

"Whoever did this. They will not destroy our democracy"

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:47 AM

It would appear that this lone attacker has thought very carefully about his attack on the Norwegian Labour party organisation and he must have been planning it for some time.

- Four guns two of which were "legally held" (The fully automatic weapon and the automatic shot gun were not - Automatic weapons in Norway are strictly illegal and automatic self loading shot guns in Norway have to have restricted magazines of two or three shots IIRC)

- He had a flat in Oslo but had bought a small farm supposedly to grow vegetables which gave him access to purchase the fertilisers used to make his explosives without raising suspicion

- He apaprently parked his car bomb and then drove to Tyrefjord an inland freshwater lake where Utoya is located. The bomb having gone off in Oslo at 15:15hrs he appeared in Police Uniform and presented himself to those controlling access to the island, saying that he had to brief those on the island on security matters, the Norwegian Prime Minister who is from the Norwegian Labour Party was due to speak to the youngsters on Utoya today.

- He arrived on the island and called all the youngsters to gather round for the briefing then started shooting. As the children and youngsters ran for cover he started hunting them down. Appeals went out on Norwegian television and radio not to call children on the island as the ring tones from their mobile phones would give their positions away.

- People on the island ran into the water to escape, the lake is up in the mountains to the west of Oslo (about 50km), fresh water even at this time of year is very, very cold. He shot at those in the water trying to escape.

- He planted explosives on the island to kill any rescue parties

- Diving teams are now searching for bodies that may have sunk, there are still people missing the body count may not be finalised yet.

Speaking to former work colleagues over in Norway the country is in shock.

A double attack by a lone right wing nutcase, as bad, horrific and as terrible as this was, is a far better in prospect to an attack by a group that yesterday's events may have signalled only the start of a concentrated campaign.

With the undoubted feelings running as they are I do not give much for this guy's chances. And like Rhett Butler "I don't give a damn". Norway is a country with a small population, the summer camp was attended by youngsters from all over, the ripples of this will extend far and wide, my thoughts are with the victims, their friends and their families.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:31 AM

Eyewitnesses on the island now report two gunmen, not confirmed by police.

This would explain why one witness felt relief at the appearance of the one in disguise, if there had already been shots elsewhere.

If he was also in police uniform, he could have got off without being noticed.

I have just been reading Terry Pratchett's Carpe Jugulum - Granny Weatherwax defines evil as being when one treats people as things. By this definition, yesterday's doings were evil.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:26 AM

BBC News has just had someone point out that the children were from all over the country, and so the impact, had he killed more on the island, would have been nationwide. It will be widespread as it is.

"Deliberately designed to spread fear and so political change."

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:00 AM

It's at times like this that we need to think carefully about what terrorism is all about. When terrorists brutally kill and maim people, those deaths and injuries are, to the terrorists 'merely incidental' and 'just' a means to an end (let me hasten to add that, to people like you and me, they are foul crimes). What the terrorists hope to achieve is a gross over-reaction and a de-stabilisation of a whole society. We should not forget that when Al-Quaeda attacked the USA in September 2001 they got just the reaction that they had been hoping for. Up to now the US Government has spent around $4 trillion (!) on two futile wars and this will impact severely on its future prospects as a world power.

Before pdq even knew who was responsible for the carnage in Norway he felt moved to write: "It appears that Islam does not recognize Norway's right to exist." Thus playing straight into Osama's dead hands! pdq you're an idiot!

I hope and pray that the people of Norway have more sense. I also extend to them my deepest sympathy at this dreadful point in their history.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: billybob
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:49 AM

So sad, lighting a candle, for my friends in Oslo I send all my love.
Wendy

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:30 AM

Not any sort of Christian I recognise, even among the ones I don't like. Not very pagan Viking either - very heroic to take an automatic weapon to unarmed children.

The really chilling thing is the way he shot all the fallen bodies in the head with a shot gun, to make sure that no-one was faking dead - which some were.

This wasn't political, and certainly not religious. He looks very like a psychopath.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bassen
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:22 AM

Police press conference now saying 84 confirmed dead, water around the island being searched by divers. Flags to fly at half mast today.

The perpetrator describes himself as a Christian fundamentalist on websites "One man with beliefs is worth 100 000 with interests" - his own words. A sad day for my country.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:55 AM

80 dead in the shooting, according to the New York Times. What a horrible, horrible day.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bfdk
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:27 AM

This is just plain horrible, I lack words. When I went to bed last night the reports from Utøya were already speaking of 25-30 dead, but when I got up this morning it's now 'at least 80'..

This is the man held by police for questioning about the bombing in Oslo and the shooting on the island of Utøya. The article states that he's lived right outside of Oslo all his life and a friend of his is quoted as saying he turned right radical in his late 20s. Hitherto unknown by the police except for a minor traffic violation some years back.

Reportedly, there were about 560 young people on the island at the time of the shooting, and a search is still going on on Utøya and in the lake surrounding the island. I have been unable to find a figure saying how many young people are still unaccounted for.

Incomprehensible!

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: MarkS
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:37 PM

Apparantly the guy is in custody. I suspect we will be getting details about motive and opportunity over the next few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:31 PM

I'm horrified and shocked on their behalf, and a large part of me is immensely relieved that it wasn't Al Q'aeda or their ilk, which I feared with the two fairly simultaneous attacks... Somehow this makes it a horrible aberration and not yet another horrible attack from the same amorphous enemy... and I feel bad for feeling any relief in the face of their tragedy.

I wish I could express that this does not detract from awful anguishing loss-cum-affront a la 9/11. This is a huge event far out of proportion to the number of dead for such a civilized nation, no?

And the gunman (note, +gun man, how did that happen in Norway, you can't exactly find one at every street corner) is still alive, so we may actually find out what he was thinking, or if.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:23 PM

The Associated Press is reported 7 dead in Oslo and at least 80 at the Camp. The police are saying that the man acted alone.

This is sickening. My heart goes out to the people of Norway.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: MarkS
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:09 PM

Turns out the guys name is Anders Behring Breivik.
Said to be a 37yo 6" tall blond Norwegian.
Current reports claim no connection to muslim jihad, in spite of some jihadist groups taking credit on their web sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 10:08 PM

I agree with AllisonA(Animaterra).

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:15 PM

Love to you, Skarpi, and to those in Oslo and at the youth labour camp.

And to echo Kat, May peace prevail on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 08:59 PM

A "police source" told the Associated Press that this appears to be a home-grown terrorist attack by one man. Also, a bomb has been found in the Camp and is being deactivated by the police and the Army.

Nobody knows anything yet, really. The death toll is at 17 and expected to rise.

Skarpi, I hope that everyone is well and this greatly saddens me.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:59 PM

Local ? yes he may be local does not mean is not foreign ...he may have lived for many years in Norway ...

yes , there are things going on in this world everyday that are sad .

we the human are killing our self slowly hour by hour ..until we all die
strange to see this evil predator wipe it self out of this world .

thoughts and pray over the ocean , my friends are ok ..

kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:40 PM

It seems the bomber is a local man. His motives will come out over the next few days. I am sure.
I am not angry, skarpi. Just sad. I am sick of reading about babies microwaved to death, mothers and fathers murdered in senseless attacks, people starving while others die of obesity.
I think I am getting odd in my dotage.
FUCK that! I think I am right.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:33 PM

well I am angry , but also my thoughts are with them all , I have have friends there and I hope they are ok .

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

It's early days and few facts, but this is starting to sound more like Tim McVeigh than Bin Laden.

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:17 PM

Right now, my thoughts go out to the people harmed in both attacks and their families. If this is anything like September 11, many are still trying to locate loved ones. The young people who were attacked at the camp are terrified of the police - given they were attacked by a policeman. Very well thought out attack.
Stupid as well. Those young people are the likeliest hope of future understanding and acceptance.

So very sad.