BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:42 PM

Norwegian Gun Laws:

- You are entitled to own up to eight guns, unless you are a registered collector.

- You are not allowed to own Automatic weapons that are fully automatic

- Guns owned must be for your own personal use (Hunting, Target/Competition Shooting)

- Extremely difficult to own two guns of the same calibre unless you have an extremely good reason (Elg 375 - 308; Red Deer 308 - 243; Roe Deer 243)

- No-one actually knows how many guns are in circulation in Norway because of what happened at the end of the Second World War (Masses of German weapons were "liberated) Up until about twenty years ago shotguns did not have to be licenced they reckon that there are about 500,000 of those weapons lying about off the Police registers.

Rapparee was perfectly correct in what he stated with regard to getting your hands on any type of gun that you want illegally. The villans always manage to get their hands on them and their principle sources of supply are not weapons stolen from owners who hold them legally.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:32 PM

I'd agree with Keith on that.

The comment of his which led to this spat was He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror. This was an accurate statement, referring to the fact that Breivik deliberately used that term, and clearly took it from a jihadist context.

I certainly didn't read it as suggesting that Breivik modelled his actions on any Islamist. His actual atrocity bore little resemblance to even the nastiest jihadist atrocity - and of course he made a point of ensuring that he did not die, either by killing himself or dying in a shoot out. Just laid down his guns as soon as an armed policeman came in sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:30 PM

Spot on Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:20 PM

yep- keep bangin them rocks together Kieth & Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM

Jim.. I have already stated that I think the guy was unhinged.

I am not supporting or excusing the crime

But to box this up as simple right-wing Muslim hating might be convenient for you , but does not make sense.
If that were the case he would surely have selected Muslim young people to massacre?

The malaise goes much deeper I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM

Lox,
"Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater."

An attack on me personally by name.Not anything I actually said.

Jim,
"You linked this obscenity with the Muslim culture (NO I DID NOT)you have spent so much time attacking of late (I HAVE NEVER DONE ANY SUCH THING"

That is nasty, personal and untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:29 PM

"Jim and Lox, lay off the argumentative personal attacks please."

Quote the personal attack or publicly withdraw your groundless assertion and apologize for telling lies about other mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:26 PM

"These are the actions which often occur when a people lose their voice, or are unable to make their feelings known."
So there we have it - a hard-done-by Nazi unable to give voice to his feelings and multiculturalism - that's what slaughtered 90 odd people.
We should give the Nazis their voice and send all the foreigners home - pretty well in line with what you've argued in the past.
These killings were done by a white, Christian, Fascist thug protesting against the multiculturalism you appear to be objecting to
Keith;
You linked this obscenity with the Muslim culture you have spent so much time attacking of late "in imitation of Islamic terror" - why on earth was I surprised that you would use the massacre of 90 odd (mainly young) people as part of your anti- Muslim agenda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:25 PM

I agree Mr McGrath... but I was addressing what I think is yet to come.

Do you not think that there is a large section of society which has become disconnected from government?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:11 PM

Example the use of words like racist, homophobe, bigot here on Mudcat to shut down debate.....and most here are reasonable, intelligent, sane.
How do the less literate come to terms with these problems?

- akenaton

after reading this I was reminded of the amazingly funny line from the sorely missed Douglas Adams, those of you familiar with his work will know from whence it comes

"A big hello to all intelligent life everywhere in the universe, and for the rest of you, just keep banging those rocks together."

I can hear Douglas Adams laughing

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:04 PM

Indeed it was, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:00 PM

This wasn't reactive violence by beaten down people who haven't a voice, or anything like that. This was cold-blooded terrorist violence by a rich and privileged young man with a Nazi mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:42 PM

These are the actions which often occur when a people lose their voice, or are unable to make their feelings known.

Example the use of words like racist, homophobe, bigot here on Mudcat to shut down debate.....and most here are reasonable, intelligent, sane.
How do the less literate come to terms with these problems?

There are great numbers of people in our society and in the US who disagree strongly with the policies of parties which are to all intents and purposes indistiguishable from one another.

For years they have been ramming through poisonous policies against which the ordinary folk have no redress.

Example..a couple of years ago anyone who suggested a cap on immigration here was branded a racist and a bigot.....now this has been accepted by every party as necessary.

We now need to tackle the failed notion of "multiculturalism" along with many other social idiocies.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:17 PM

I know that some of the better informed on Mudcat are aware of what has been happening in the Scandinavian countries over the last few years.......they obviously don't include Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM

Maybe "not alot of room" Jim, but you seem to have managed it quite comfortably......congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:49 PM

Strange how it appears that Timothy McVeigh seems to have drifted out of the consciousness of Mrrzy - and many others.

If it were only McVeigh, that would be one thing. But its not.

Were one to total up the number of times bombs have exploded on U.S soil 99% of the incidents would have been perpetrated by Americans.

One would also likely find that the number killed and maimed by home-grown bombers exceeds by a LARGE margin those Americans killed & maimed by McVeigh and al-Qaeda combined.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:34 PM

"You are attempting to use the murder of 90odd people by a fundamentalist Christian to implicate Muslims."

Implicate Muslims?
I did no such thing.
A groundless attack for personal reasons.
You may not value your Mudcat membership, but I do.

Suicide missions are not unique to Islamic terror.
They were used for instance by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.
The phrase "martyrdom operation" is part of the Islamists vocabulary that he, for his own twisted reasons, has consciously copied.

This act of terror was perpetrated by a lone psychopath.
I am just trying to get my head around what drives him.

I read that 21 years is the maximum tariff under Nowegian law.
Less than 3 months for each murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:19 PM

As I have said, you can obtain any weapon you want IF you are willing to pay the price (and I'm not just talking about money). Britain has strict gun laws, and yet there is gun violence, with many of the arms apparently coming in from former Soviet Bloc countries. Russia and China, Canada, Australia, Germany, South Korea....

Please do not consider this to be anything but a simple statement of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:06 PM

Some info on Norway's gun laws:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/24/norway-strict-gun-laws-circumvented

One of the early reports yesterdaystated that at least two of thenguns used in the massacre were legally registered to the killer.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:04 PM

"I asked well, who bombs Americans?"

Strange how it appears that Timothy McVeigh seems to have drifted out of the consciousness of Mrrzy - and many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:51 PM

...and I asked well, who bombs Americans?

Obviously, and primarily, other Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:34 PM

"I certainly hope not, but action needs to be taken now to reverse some of the policies which have created the "time bomb"
Not a lot of room to "mis-represent this statement" - do what the killer wants or somebody else will carry out another massacre - aka submitting to the demands of a fascist madman.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:19 PM

I think Teribus has it about right. To start with, the guy must have been seriously deranged to perpetrate such an atrocity.

Secondly he appears to be an extreme Nationalist who has been driven over the edge by the policies of the Norwegian govt.
(Please dont try to mis-represent that statement)

As western economies worsen and living standards, pension rights, public services come under further attack,expect to see a backlash against the policies pursued by goverments in Western Europe over the last couple of decades.

Perhaps we may yet see Mr Powells "rivers of blood".....I certainly hope not, but action needs to be taken now to reverse some of the policies which have created the "time bomb"

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:16 PM

GregF, in those, instances, I hadn't assumed it was the islamofundies the way I did with the ones I listed under "times I was wrong when I assumed it was the islamofundies" (or some such).

I remember a conversation after the 1st bombing of the World Trade Center, when a Palistinian friend of mine said I shouldn't make such an assumption and I asked well, who bombs Americans? The only other terrorists are the IRA, who don't bite the hand that feeds, and the Basque, who are after the French (if they're Spanish) or the Spanish (if they're French) (or maybe it's the other way around) but at any rate it wasn't them either. And I was right, that time.

Now, who would bomb inoffensive beautiful open-minded Norway? Apparently, a narrow-minded Norwegian, but it wasn't an attack against the *nation* the way the attacks on US embassies and landmarks were. Or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:14 PM

You needn't be Muslim to be a terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:10 PM

Plenty of examples of "suicide missions" in the wars of the last century, and before. Any number of tributes to soldiers who were killed "laying down their lives", or to their "sacrifice".

Of course the thing about this guy is that it wasn't a suicide mission in any sense - as soon as the armed police came up, he put down his weapons and surrendered.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:34 AM

>"Apart from Islamic fundamantalist terrorist organisations, what other terrorist group or groups refer to any of their attacks as "martyrdom operations"?"

The murder of George Tiller for one by members of Operation Rescue.
Also, Tim McVeigh. The idea that this must be Islamic is a tinfoil hat idea.

The newspapereze label of "martyrdom operation" is a term immediately to be distrusted
as identifying anything of importance.

There are many Xtian terrorist paramilitary and skinhead groups in the U.S. that would use the term "martydom" for their cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:20 AM

"He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror. "

Keith, please clarify this, I thought you were saying that the killer was concerned with imitating what he called "Islamic terror." I did not think that you were in any way trying to imply that Islamic terror was any different from any other kind of "terror." Is this so?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:09 AM

1: "He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror." - Keith A

2: "Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater." - Lox

I read and understand 1: but can see no connection or logic for the jump that Lox makes in stating 2:

Observation:
Apart from Islamic fundamantalist terrorist organisations, what other terrorist group or groups refer to any of their attacks as "martyrdom operations"? And to point out the glaringly obvious, as the man responsible is in custody having given himself up to armed police officers on Uteoya this was no "martyrdom operation" at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 10:24 AM

"Jim and Lox, lay off the argumentative personal attacks please."
"Personal attacks" refuge again Keith.
You are attempting to use the murder of 90odd people by a fundamentalist Christian to implicate Muslims.
Like Lox, I thought even you couldn't use this as part of your mission - forgot your dedication to the cause.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 10:10 AM

What is the connection between the Norwegian Christian militia and the American Tea Party?

The TeaBaggers are largely fundagelical Christians[sic], virulently anti-Muslim (and somewhat unbalanced; remember Obama being a secret Muslim who was going to impose Sharia law?), anti-Immigrant, & anti-government.

Also, they terrorize people by showing up at public meetings waving loaded guns. They just havent used them....yet.

Sounds like a connection to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:25 AM

Jim and Lox, lay off the argumentative personal attacks please.
In his pre-attack video he talks of "embracing martyrdom", and previously,"He also claims to have bought three bottles of 1979 vintage French wine, and decides to open one with his family at Christmas as his "martyrdom operation draws ever closer".
That is quite relevant to any discussion of this crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:19 AM

It is never "just one man". Even if physically one person did manage to pull this off then you have an Army of people that influenced his views and opinions. Somebody along the line influenced this man to become militant. Somebody wrote a book or article that lead him down this path. There are far more people at work than just this one man. Like I said even if it was just him that executed the action.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:02 AM

"Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater."
These events certainly drag them out of the woodwork, don't they?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 05:52 AM

Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater.

The pope is Moslem and bears like to face mecca while they make proper use of private toilet facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:23 AM

Poor shallow buggers won't know who to hate for being different now. Except this one was blonde, European and claims to be a Christian.

The fact that his disturbed mind amplified his political rather than religious stance seems to have been missed by many of the tabloids.

Must admit, calling a thread non - Islamic terrorist doesn't sit well, regardless of the explanation in the OP. Non Irish? Non Red Faction???

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:17 AM

He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:35 AM

"Non-Islamic Terrorist" is correct in as much as the terrorist was not a follower of Islam.

The man according to Norwegian reports is an extreme ring-wing Nationalist

His attack was not directed at any religious group but at a Norwegian Political party and I suspect that he was trying to take out the "leadership" of that party as well as striking at the "next generation" of Arbeiderpartiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MarkS
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:28 PM

What is the connection between the Norwegian Christian militia and the American Tea Party?

No agenda here, just seems to be a set of dots very hard to connect.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:08 PM

a) Great thread title. Luckily, I read before I post so I won't make a snark comment about the Islam mention.
b) I'm still counting the hours until the mention of violent video games. Trust me, it'll happen.
c) I've not been following it closely, but I believe that this guy thought there was too much tolerance towards muslims. I'd love to know how this helped his cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:39 PM

The murderer's right wing Christian militia group is politically akin to the American Tea Party. Or so said by Norwegians.

He is thier McVeigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:04 PM

These attacks were exceptionally well planned and coordinated requiring many different skills it is possible that one man could have done everything. But he would have to be some sort of DaVinci of Terrorism. It is more likely that he had help.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:37 PM

One man could have done it, Skarpi. Put a timer on the bomb, go to the island, and it was 90 minutes before the police arrived after the shooting there started.

But where do you get automatic (i.e., machine gun type) weapons in Norway? It's difficult to get them in the US! Still, I suppose in this world anything is possible if you are willing to pay enough for it.

Unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:20 PM

Not to mention unreported attacks on innocent Moslems and Mosques in the US since 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:42 PM

This is only the second time, the first being Tim McVeigh et al., that I've been wrong when assuming Arabs were behind some bombing.

You're missing the Civil Rights struggle in the U.S, George Metesky, the Unabomber and dozens (hundreds?) of other examples worldwide.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:34 PM

What would gk do?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:29 PM

Lutheran terrorists? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

Actually, JtS, they bombed the embassy *again* after the barracks, and *then* Ronny got out. Both embassy bombings before and after were terrorism and while the barrakcs bombing was part of the same campaign, strictly speaking it was an act of war rather than terrorism since it targeted troops.

This is only the second time, the first being Tim McVeigh et al., that I've been wrong when assuming Arabs were behind some bombing.

Oh, right, there was a third time, when it turned out to be an accident that a large airplane blew up, anybody remember spark possibilities in the cargo hold or something? Maybe a TWA flight? Probably in the 80's? I was only counting the ones that were other terrorists at first.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM

Never assume anything until, you have at least the minimum of facts. (McGrath)

Very good advice, but even much more information won't change some minds.
There are still those who think that Timothy McVeigh has colluded with Iraqis and that 9/11 was a Mossad or, your choice, American job.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:26 PM

how many of you assumed it was the islamofundies again?

I have, after the Oslo explosion. But the shooting on the island quickly looked different.

Wolfgang