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Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls

Stower 30 Sep 11 - 02:05 PM
Ann N 30 Sep 11 - 02:34 PM
Mo the caller 30 Sep 11 - 02:42 PM
Ann N 30 Sep 11 - 03:18 PM
Ann N 30 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM
Stower 30 Sep 11 - 05:08 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 30 Sep 11 - 05:40 PM
Jack Campin 30 Sep 11 - 06:28 PM
Jack Campin 30 Sep 11 - 07:24 PM
JohnB 30 Sep 11 - 10:27 PM
Geoff the Duck 01 Oct 11 - 04:08 AM
Stower 01 Oct 11 - 06:01 AM
Ann N 01 Oct 11 - 07:35 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 01 Oct 11 - 08:42 AM
Marje 01 Oct 11 - 08:48 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 01 Oct 11 - 09:00 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 01 Oct 11 - 10:47 AM
Mo the caller 01 Oct 11 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Jan 01 Oct 11 - 04:45 PM
Stower 01 Oct 11 - 07:40 PM
Mo the caller 02 Oct 11 - 05:03 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 02 Oct 11 - 10:35 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 02 Oct 11 - 10:42 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 02 Oct 11 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,leeneia 03 Oct 11 - 12:24 AM
Stower 03 Oct 11 - 04:16 AM
Artful Codger 03 Oct 11 - 06:24 PM
Jack Campin 03 Oct 11 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,josepp 03 Oct 11 - 06:51 PM
Helen 03 Oct 11 - 07:43 PM
Stower 04 Oct 11 - 02:49 PM
Artful Codger 04 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM
Artful Codger 05 Oct 11 - 06:31 PM
Artful Codger 05 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM
Stower 07 Oct 11 - 05:49 AM
Jack Campin 07 Oct 11 - 06:04 AM
Stower 07 Oct 11 - 01:44 PM
Jack Campin 07 Oct 11 - 04:46 PM
Helen 07 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Tracie 08 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM
Stower 08 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM
Helen 09 Oct 11 - 02:42 AM
Stower 09 Oct 11 - 06:20 AM
Helen 09 Oct 11 - 05:09 PM
Stower 10 Oct 11 - 02:42 AM
Jack Campin 10 Oct 11 - 05:54 AM
Helen 10 Oct 11 - 04:42 PM
Monique 10 Oct 11 - 05:29 PM
Monique 10 Oct 11 - 05:30 PM
Artful Codger 10 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM
Monique 11 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM
ollaimh 11 Oct 11 - 11:10 AM
Stower 11 Oct 11 - 03:02 PM
Monique 11 Oct 11 - 03:20 PM
Artful Codger 11 Oct 11 - 08:42 PM
GUEST 12 Oct 11 - 04:47 AM
Stower 12 Oct 11 - 04:50 AM
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Subject: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:05 PM

Tunes, please.

My early music duo, The Night Watch, is planning a winter / Christmas show featuring mediaeval, renaissance and early baroque songs and tunes on the theme of winter and Christmas, with a latest date cut-off point of about 1700.

We have plenty of songs but could do with a few more tunes for the show. We are looking specifically for tunes that mention frost, winter, Christmas, etc. I have trawled Playford's Dancing Master and found only Drive The Cold Winter Away (which we'll sing the song of, as it was a 17th century broadside). So we'd be most grateful for any tunes with wintery names, as long they are before around 1700.   

The web page for one of the shows is here


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Ann N
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:34 PM

There's always Gaudete :) it's pre 1700, very suitable for Christmas and I'm sure you'll already know the tune

For anyone who hasn't heard the song before youtube version of Gaudete   :D


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:42 PM

Is 'In the fields of Frost and snow' Playford? It has words, like an early Old Macdonald. There was an article in the EFDSS Journal recently.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Ann N
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:18 PM

2 more ...   'Chestnut' (Dove's Figary) and 'Cast a Bell', both could slip in with Christmas friendly titles and were in the 1651 edition of Playford :)


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Ann N
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM

... would John Dowland's Mistress Winter's Jump be of use ? :)


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 05:08 PM

Thanks, Ann and Mo.

I had never heard of 'In the Fields in Frost and Snow', so big thanks. It turns out to have been in PEDM editions of 1710, 1714, 1718, 1728. Mo, if you could give the highlights about it from the EFDSS Journal or the issue number I'd be most grateful.

Ann, I already play Chestnut (or Dove's Figary) on 4 course renaissance guitar and John Dowland's Mistress Winter's Jump on lute, but for some reason hadn't thought of them for the show - so thank you! And Cast a Bell - why didn't I think of that? Wonderful!

Any more excellent suggestions?

Big smiles.

Stower


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 05:40 PM

Simpson's The British Broadside Ballad and its Music has Last Christmas 'Twas My Chance ("Pepys' copy c1620").

There is also a Nowel's [sic] Galiard in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:28 PM

Another song, if a rather different one: Neidhart von Reuental's "Winder wie ist nu dein kraft"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmDlOwSyqsw

I can't find a YouTube performance I'd pay to listen to. In a few minutes of searching I've found an unspeakably bungled and out-of-tune recorder duet, a version off an LP where the notes are all absolutely of even length like a bad MIDI, a version by an early music group trying to sound like a Teutonic death metal band, a race between guitar and viol where the music comes in third, and a flashy performance on the harp which gets the melody wonderfully lively and expressive but she forgets to *sing* it.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:24 PM

Hey, I found a version of Neidhart's song done instrumentally that I actually like:

Japanese folk-jazz-rock band with didgeridoo


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: JohnB
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 10:27 PM

We do "Es ist ein Ros entsprungen" "Tomorrow Shall be my Dancing Day" Bring a Torch Jeanette Isabella" "Ding Dong Merrily on high(Bransle Officiel)" "Pat a Pan" "Seven Joys of Mary" "I saw three Ships/Sussex Carol (as a pair alternating tunes)" "Sir Richard de Coverly" and a few more.
Although the last is probably outside your timeframe, I think most of the others fit (without actually checking).
JohnB.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 04:08 AM

Sir Richard de Coverly - Surely you mean Roger?
Or did he have a brother?
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 06:01 AM

Thanks, Mick. I thought I'd find Last Christmas 'Twas My Chance with other Pepys broadsides in the English Broadside Ballad Archive but it isn't there. I think the whole Pepys broadside collection is online, so I wonder is Sam wrote it out? Do you know where I might find it?

Mick, I wonder if your Nowel's Galiard in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book is the very beautiful Anthony Holborne tune? No readily available music for that (I don't have the full consort parts), but I have Holborne's bandora consort part which can easily be adapted for lute or renaissance guitar for my part in the duo. Thank you! You sending me to my Holborne complete works for lute and bandora helps me rediscover his bandora solo, The New Year's Gift which, again, can be easily adapted.

Jack, I have to agree with you about YouTube performances of Neidhart von Reuental's Winder wie ist nu dein kraft!

John B, the version of Es ist ein Ros entsprungen here is making my neck hairs tingle - wow. I'd love to do that as a tune using Praetorius' parts as a starting point (there are 2 of us so we'll have to adapt). We've got Branle d'official on our list, thank you. I saw three Ships and Sussex Carol are, I think, late for us (correct me if I'm wrong). We were thinking of Tomorrow Shall be my Dancing Day as a song or tune, but I can find no evidence this goes back further than the 19th century! (Quite a few authors claim it to be mediaeval without offering any supporting evidence. I think it's one of those cases where mediaeval = it sounds vaguely old to me. Please do say if you know otherwise.)   

Thank you all! Very grateful! This is Mudcat at its best and your suggestions will definitely be used and help even up the song/tune balance in the programme.

Any more?

Stower.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Ann N
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 07:35 AM

this Christmas I hope to 'Pastime with good company' (Henry VIII) and discover some 'Fine knacks for ladies' (Dowland) under the tree :)


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 08:42 AM

Stower

Re Last Christmas 'Twas My Chance: A ballad with the rhyming title "The Pedlar opening of his Packe, To know of Maydes what tis they lacke" and begins "Who is it will repaire" (Pepys: reprinted in Pepysian Garland, p116". No contemporary version of the tune exists but Pills, 1719-1720, V, 25 contains a song beginning "Last Christmas 'twas my chance", in the same distinctive four-and-a-half line stanza pattern of the ballad". (Simpson)

This is the tune Simpson prints. All the tunes from Simpson are available in Bruce Olson's website, archived here (Bruce Olson's website in the Quick Links drop down); this is a direct link to the abc for Simson's tunes: The British Broadside Ballad and its Music - abc of tunes. Alternatively you can find it in Pills Vol V (I haven't checked it - my copies are on my other machine!), but if you don't have Pills, you can download it from archive.org. Here is a link to the Pepys ballad text: The Pedlar opening of his Packe at UCSB.


Nowel's Galiard is given as anon; if you don't have Fitzwilliam you can PM me an email address I'll send you a scan of the two pages. (I'd put the abc up here, but I don't think I've got time at the moment).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Marje
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 08:48 AM

If you can get hold of a copy of The Shorter New Oxford Book of Carols (quite different from the other OBOC), it helpfully divides the "Composed Carols" into Middle Ages, pre-1700 etc. Possible ones include Angelus ad Virginem, Veni Veni Emmanuel, Personent Hodie, Unto us a boy is born, There is No Rose, Quem Pastores Laudavere, In Dulci Jubilo.(glorious melodies, those last two).
In the Traditional Carols section, the earliest dates given are usually the earliest published dates, whereas the carols may be centuries older than that. The Boars' Head Carol, for instance, appears in print in 1860 but the book tells us that by 1700 wild boars were extinct in England, which suggests that the carol must go back a long way. The words of the Sussex Carol were written by 1686, but the origins of the traditional tune are not dated. Others that are probably old enough include I Saw Three Ships, God Rest Ye Merry, and some of the wassail carols, but it's difficult to trace the origins of traditional melodies.
Oh, and there's Green Grow'th the Holly, which is in the OBOC and is 16th century. That can work as a duet, but is better with the third part added on voice or instrument. And don't forget Coventry Carol.

Marje


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 09:00 AM

Stower

I should have checked earlier, but if you don't have Fitzwilliam, you can download the 2 vols from ILSMP: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book download page (click the yellow arrows against Volume I and Volume II). Nowel's Galliard is in Vol 2, p369 (actual page 378 in the pdf).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 10:47 AM

Stower

There is a recording of Nowel's Galliard on youtube Nowel's Galliard, with a comment that it is also the tune set by Holborne as you mentioned above.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 01:04 PM

The article is by Vic Gammon in EFDSS journal Vol 10 number 1 2011. "Farmyard cacophonies. 3 centuries of a popular song."
The song is by Tho. D'Urfey
Not sure how much I can quote without breaching copyright, but basically the words are
In the fields in frost and snow
Watching late and early
...then 2 lines about the animal the sing is milking / shearing etc
And a chorus with animal noises "here a boo, there a boo everywhere a boo" etc,
It then goes on to talk about other animal catalogue songs and analyse them. Including the versions you wouldn't sing at a Sunday School concert.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: GUEST,Jan
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 04:45 PM

The Boars Head and Lullay my liking - both 15th C carols - emphasis on the feasting and medieval celebrations - sung by The Spinners many years ago

Jan


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 07:40 PM

Ann N, I did think of Dowland's Fine Knacks for Ladies, and thanks, Jan, for your song suggestions - we already have plenty (i.e. too many) of songs for the programme and we're specifically looking for tunes.

Mick, another reason for not doing Fine Knacks is because I had discovered The Pedlar opening of his Packe on the English Broadside Ballad Archive - similar sentiment to Dowland's song but I prefer to sing Pedlar simply on the basis that people won't know it but they'll likely know the Dowland song.

The question of authorship before days of copyright can be difficult to fathom. I think all of Holborne's tunes - as far as I know - were original (whereas Dowland, Byrd, etc. did a fair bit of doing clever things with existing tunes and putting their name to it, as was the way in the renaissance), so I suspect Nowel's Galiard in the FVB is a resetting of the Holborne original. Thanks for the offer of PMing you for the scan - since I read music terribly slowly but lute tab quickly I'll stick with Holborne's piece - but thank you!

Marje, thanks for the info on The Shorter New Oxford Book of Carols -I have the New Oxford Book, which is a lot fuller and more detailed than the 'old' one. We already do Grow'th the Holly and Coventry Carol - thanks for the tip-off about the others.

Mo, thanks for the info from the EFDSS journal on farmyard songs - I'll look that up.

Thank you all - you've all been very kind and helpful. And if there are any more suggestions ...?

Stower


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Mo the caller
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 05:03 AM

"...we already have plenty (i.e. too many) of songs for the programme and we're specifically looking for tunes."
A lot of the Playford dance tunes are really songs anyway.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 10:35 AM

While on Holborne, there's As It Fell On A Holly Eve. (You can find a Fronimo file of the lute tab for that on Serge Gerbode's site, if you don't already have it: Holborne lute tabs).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 10:42 AM

And there's Bonny Sweet Robin.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 11:14 AM

Campions Now Winters Nights from the Third Booke of Ayres (Now Winters Nights - many formats).

And Purcell has When A Cruel Long Winter and Next Winter Comes Slowly; also The Frost Scene.


Mick


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 12:24 AM

I have a copy of Peter Barnes' book of English Country Dances, and it has a tune called "in the fields of frost and snow."

Maybe you can find that one.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:16 AM

Thank you all again!

Mick, having gone back to my complete solo Holborne, I found the wonderful (and very tricky!) As It Fell On A Holy Eve, too, as well as The New Year's Gift. I have picked out the bandora accompaniment consort part of Heigh Ho Holiday (the rest of the consort parts are missing) and worked it up into a 4 course guitar arrangement, as it fits so well on there.

And Bonny Sweet Robin - why didn't I think of that! In the duo, we've had great fun trying to find the most tenuous and improbable connections to winter / Christmas - I think Mris Winter's Jump and Bonny Sweet Robin must come pretty near the top for tenuousness - we'll take them!

I love Thomas Campion's songs and am planning to sing Never Weather Beaten Sail (not Christmassy or wintery, but beautiful and with a religious theme). Why am I not familiar with Now Winters Nights? Thank you, Mick - it's beautiful and the words are exactly right for the programme. I know I said we didn't want more songs, but I'll certainly make an exception here.

leeneia, In the fields of frost and snow is discussed above. I found the words to it in D'Urfey's Pills - great fun - contemplating whether to do this as a Playford tune or an audience singalong.

Thank you again for your time, generosity and suggestions. It is very much appreciated. If any of you are in the area and can come to The Night Watch Winter Warmer, I do hope you will introduce yourselves.

Big smiles.

Stower


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 06:24 PM

Aside from "Bonny Sweet Robin" being a song of its own ("Robin is to the greenwood gone"), the tune is also used for the carol "Come mad boys, be glad boys" (aka "Carol for St. Stephen's Day," providing a definite seasonal tie-in), and also for "Sweet angel of England." The tune can be found in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, also in Chappell, English Popular Music, Vol. 1, pp.153-4. Several nice clips on YouTube under the titles of "Sweet angel of England" and "Robin is to the greenwood gone."

There are many carol books scanned at Google Books which go back quite far, and I'd particularly recommend checking out some in French, where you'll find interesting tunes for carols almost never performed now, due to language difficulties. Prior to the 1800s (if I recall my QI trivia correctly), only 20% of the population of France could speak and understand the language/dialect we now know as French. But since you only need good tunes...


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 06:39 PM

One by, I think, Tom D'Urfey - "When the cold winter nights were frozen". It's a version of the tune otherwise known as "Mary Scott the Flower of Yarrow" or "Sir John Fenwick's the Flower Amang Them All". If you can't find it I have the version in Thomson's Scottish recorder MS of 1702.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 06:51 PM

Is nobody going to mention Anonymous 4's "Als I Lay on Yoolis Night"? Of course, this is really pre-1700--like sung in Olde English pre-1700.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Helen
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 07:43 PM

I don't know the dates of the music on this album, and I haven't heard it for many years, because my copy is vinyl and I don't have the record player set up, but it is a lovely album by the same Robin Williamson who was in Incredible String Band, all those decades ago.

Robin Williamson's Winter's Turning CD


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:49 PM

Artful Codger, I know some commentators say Bonny Sweet Robin and Robin is to the Greenwood Gone are the same tune, but they seem really divergent to my ears (I play both on lute, the former from Thomas Robinson, the latter in Folger Dowland). Both are lovely, but robins weren't part of Christmas iconography pre-1700 and the original robin in question here is Robin Hood - I'm beginning to think that connection to winter/Christmas is just a little too tenuous! But that tune to Come mad boys, be glad boys (Carol for St. Stephen's Day) is one I don't know - thank you. We're really looking for tunes, but I could just play Robin is to the Greenwood Gone and explain the seasonal connection? Mmmm, I think I'd like to do that - thank you.

josepp, thank you, we have songs a-plenty and are looking for tunes.

Helen, Robin Williamson's Winter's Turning is a lovely album. I have it on cassette somewhere. I'll go and trawl through my tape drawers. Thank you.

Again, thank you all for your thoughts.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Artful Codger
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM

The connection for "Robin" that I had in mind was simply "Come Mad Boys", and you could simply introduce the song as that, with no mention of "Robin." The carol was collected by 1642.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Artful Codger
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 06:31 PM

A French carol (which you needn't sing) from the 15th c. is "Bel astre que j'adore", the tune of which is "Charmante Gabrielle"; see this thread/message for a link to a sound clip:
Les Chansons de la France: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=39187#2517624

The second tune in the sound clip is another possible candidate, "Pe trouz war an douar" (What is the sound[, the song which I hear]?), which some sites refer to as 17th c., though I haven't tripped across any details in my cursory exploration.

Sound clips for both may also be found on YouTube, and several sites have scores.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Artful Codger
Date: 05 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM

A tad more info on the second carol: Its title is given variously as "Pe(h) trouz (')zo (w)ar an/en douar", and it is credited to Noury (whoever that may be).


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 05:49 AM

Thank you, thank you, thank you all! We had a practice last night and decided more or less on a working set list (which may change), which will be something approaching this, chronologically, running order to be decided. What actually gets put in or left out may well depend on how quickly we learn a piece (which often has little to do with what you *intend* to learn! Have you ever discovered that you practice one thing hard while learning something else accidentally by osmosis?):

MEDIAEVAL
Miri It Is c.1225 anon, England
Edi Beo Thu, Hevene Quene Late 13th c. anon, England
Adam lay ebounden 14th c, 13th c anon, England, music N von Reuental
Stella Splendens 14th c. anon, Catalonia
The Salutation / Bring Us In Good Ale c.1460 trad, England
Noel Nouvelet 15th c. trad, France

RENAISSANCE & BAROQUE
Joseph Leiber Joseph Mein c.1500 trad, Germany
Grene Growith The Holy c.1513-20 ?King HenryVIII, England
Westron wynde c.1513-20        anon, England
Tourdion: When I'm drinking 1529 trad, France (Attaingnant)
Coventry Carol c.1534 trad, England
The Night Watch        1597 Anthony Holborne, England
There comes a ship a sailing c.1470–1626 trad, Germany
Personent hodie / branle de l'Official / [mystery tune] 14th–16th c, 1589 trad, France
Robin is to the Green wood Gonn 1590 trad, anon, England
When That I Was        c.1601 trad, England
Remember O thou man 1611 Thomas Ravenscroft, England
Neuer weather-beaten Saile 1613        Thomas Campion, England
The little Barly-Corne 1618-1658? trad, England
To drive the cold Winter away 1625 trad, England
In the Fields in Frost and Snow 1709 Tom D'Urfey

Also possible:
Angelus ad Virginem                         
Campion's Now Winters Nights                        
Chestnut (or Dove's Figary) etc. Playford set
The Pedler opening of his Packe        
Dowland's Mistress Winter's Jump        
Holborne's Nowel's Galiard


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 06:04 AM

Adam lay ebounden 14th c, 13th c anon, England, music N von Reuental

What?

Britten sets "Adam lay ybounden" to a 9/8 tune in "A Ceremony of Carols" and a lot of 9/8 tunes would work for it.

I mentioned "When the cold winter nights were frozen" before - another one from the same place and time is "Where will bonny Annie lie in the cold nights in winter". Both have always been done more often as tunes than as songs.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 01:44 PM

Jack, you kind of answer your own "What?"

"Britten sets Adam lay ybounden ..." - exactly. We have the words but no tune and, since Britten is hardly contemporaneous with the text, we picked a winter tune by Neidhart von Reuental that fits the words exactly.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 04:46 PM

OK, I couldn't think of one of Neidhart's that would work with that.

I've just been looking for an early setting of Villon's "Ballade des dames du temps jadis" (with the line "Ou sont les neiges d'antan") - and I couldn't find one that predated Georges Brassens, which surprised me.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Helen
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM

Stower,

I love this one: Neuer weather-beaten Saile 1613, Thomas Campion, England.

About 30 years ago I bought a book called An Elizabethan Song Book, compile by Noah Greenberg, W H Auden & Chester Kallman. I used to play the tunes on my flute. Never Weather-Beaten Saile was one of my favourites.

Thomas Campion's tunes, as well as those by John Dowland, were my favourites in the book.

My favourite CD at the moment is Estampies & Danses Royales (Hesperion XXI, Jordi Savall) which are tunes from a 13th Century manuscript.

I wish I could go to your concert. A bit far to go from Australia!

Helen


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: GUEST,Tracie
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM

I know you've got your program pretty much set, but here are some tunes I like to play, either in consort or solo:

-- The Old Year Now Away Has Fled (to Greensleeves) This is one I like to invite the audience to sing (lyrics in the program, minus the circumcision verse) because they already know the tune. Good for a finale. Sing with feeling -- it's mostly about parties and liquor.
-- Nutmegs and Ginger
-- Hey for Christmas (to Dargason)
-- Heigh ho Holiday (Holborne)
-- Hollis Berry (also Holborne)
-- Sweet Was the Song (Lute Book Lullaby) from William Ballet lute book – in Oxford Book of Carols, among other places.

Your concert sounds like fun. Love your photo.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM

Helen, I completely agree that Neuer weather-beaten Saile is beautiful - not remotely wintery or Christmassy, but with a religious sentiment, which for me is a good enough reason to include it in the programme (I don't need much of an excuse to include this one).   

Yes, Helen, Thomas Campion and John Dowland - together with Anthony Holborne - are my favourite renaissance composers, too: Campion for his directness, simplicity and huge range of song subjects, Dowland for his breathtaking way of making melancholy beautiful in a song and the sheer joy of his dances, and Holborne for his chordal and polyphonic complexity and his left-field idea of what makes a tune. And yes, I agree that Savall's CD of Estampies & Danses Royales is refreshing and original. (Any of Savall's projects are worth a listen.)

Helen, if you should decide to spend any part of December in England, you'd be most welcome!

Tracie, thanks for your thoughts. I did consider Heigh ho Holiday (as above), but in the interests of bredth of material (trying to include as many sources as possible) went for his Nowel's Galiard instead, but I'm still storing Heigh ho in the back of my mind in reserve. Ah! Nutmegs and Ginger! Another obvious title that hadn't occured to me. I have an arrangement I made of that on 4 course guitar which I haven't learned yet, you've got me thinking I should consider it for the show. Mmm, maybe let's see how the rehearsals go for the 'definites' first, which should take a couple of weeks to learn.

Many thanks.

Stower


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Helen
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 02:42 AM

Stower, I haven't heard of Anthony Holborne, although I might have heard some of his works on some of my CD's without realising.

Now I'll have to check him out.

So much great music, so little time. My problem is that I like all sorts of music, but the early music really has a special resonance with me. Maybe because I studied Anglo-Saxon and Middle English over 30 years ago at Uni, or maybe it was vice versa. I blame a music teacher who taught us to sing "Sumer is y-cumen in" and "The Three Ravens", in high school.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 06:20 AM

Hello, Helen.

Anthony Holborne really was a one-off. Joyful music of great complexity. If you have a lute, just try playing The Fairy Round without stumbling. Here it is again, at a slightly more leisurely pace and perhaps with a clearer picture of what intricate work is needed on both hands to play Holborne. Muy Linda is typical of Holborne's writing - there is just *so* much going on for both hands (you'll know what I mean if you're a lute player) but then when you figure out how to play it and keep everything going it is *so* rewarding.

Jacob Heringman made a solo lute, cittern and bandora recording of Holborne some years ago - definitely worth seeking out.

And Holborne's The Night Watch is the piece we - that's my early music duo (link at top of this thread) - are named after (though we haven't recorded it yet).

Stower


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Helen
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 05:09 PM

Hi again.

I've watched a couple of the YouTube vids. I'll have more time later today.

I saw the tv show, Songs from the Labyrinth, with Edin Karamazov and the rock musician Sting. I enjoyed it very much, and I expect that it might catapult the lute into people's awareness a bit more.

Unfortunately I don't have a lute, but it is an instrument I have always enjoyed listening to. My hubby nearly crashed the car one day, when we were driving past some shops in an inner city suburb in Sydney. I yelled out "Oud! It's an oud!" because I had seen one in a shop window. I had to explain.

He asked me if I wanted to go back and look at it, but I didn't want to be tempted to buy it, when I knew my past dabbling in music was not really successful, and I doubt whether there would be a teacher where we live. (I've dabbled with Celtic harp, off and on for about 3 decades, with no teacher except for a short period about 20 years ago.)

Helen


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 02:42 AM

Helen.

Yes, Sting's Labyrinth. Whenever I took my lute to a folk club I'd always be met with "What's that?" or "What type of guitar is that?" When Sting's Dowland album came out, I was met instead with, "Are you trying to be like Sting?" Aaaggghhhh!

Not playing the lute is probably wise, Helen! It's the most beautiful instrument ever devised (in my opinion) and is so rewarding to play, but it's soooo difficult to get to grips with! So there's always that push and pull factor. I heard an interview with Nigel Kennedy the other morning where he said how much mingled joy and frustration the fiddle has bought him so, as therapy, every few years he takes a fiddle and smashes it to pieces. I can understand the sentiment! (Though I would *never* smash a lute!)   

I also play the oud, the predecessor of the lute, for some of the mediaeval music we play. I bought mine in a market in Turkey and have seen the exact same instrument for sale several times in this for literally 19 times the price I paid for it. Lucky me!

Stower


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 05:54 AM

Helen - there are some very very good oud players in Sydney. Subscribe to Mike's Oud Forums to find out more.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Helen
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 04:42 PM

Hi Jack,

Thanks for the info, but I'm being realistic about my musical skills, especially the fact that I don't practise enough, and I don't need to feel guilty about having *another* instrument that I don't practise, along with the harp, flute, piano, tin whistle, drum etc etc.

I live in Newcastle, which is 100 miles north of Sydney, and I hate going to Sydney, so it might as well be a world away.

I think I'm about to get serious about the harp again, after a few years away from it due to some serious, stressful ongoing life issues which have gotten in the way, and which I think I can now leave behind. So, I'll just appreciate other people's lute and oud playing and try to concentrate on my own musical progress.

(I'm trying to wrench myself away from my Gemini tendencies to get tempted to get yet another instrument, which I know I won't do justice to by learning to play properly.)

Stower, I guess you can't win re: Sting. He has a bit of bad press, but I always thought he was a very clever musician, and it did surprise me briefly that he had started playing lute, but then I thought it made a lot of sense.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Monique
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 05:29 PM

Provençal Christmas Carols by Micolau Sabòly (Nicolas Saboly in French) -1614-1675.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Monique
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 05:30 PM

Oops! it's Micolau Sabòli or Micoulau Sabòli in Prov.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Artful Codger
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM

The Saboly carols book at Google Books (more easily browsed, IMO):
http://books.google.com/books?id=V4cQAAAAYAAJ

And some of these carols in an edition with English and French translations (but no Provençal lyrics):
Ten Provençal Carols: http://books.google.com/books?id=WIcQAAAAYAAJ
This is the second set only, thus only five of the ten, with two being variants of the same song. But among this set I caught sight of "Le jambe me fait mal," mentioned above, though under the name "Boots and Saddles/Boute Selle, à mon cheval." The tenth one, "Touro louro louro (le coq chante)" I recognize as "Tura lura lura lo gau canta," which was recorded by the Boston Camera on their Renaissance album; a fun piece.

The author's name is commonly modernized (or rendered in standard French) as Nicolas.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Monique
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM

Ah, thanks for the link, Artful Codger! I'd once downloaded the pdf and couldn't find it again at archives.org
The 5 carols on Ten Provençal Carols are carols # 29 (Lei pastourèu 1&2), 5, 50 and 56. I made a literal English translation to "La cambo me fai mau and "Touro louro louro" (Tura lura lura) on Mama Lisa's World Occitania page. You can also find "Pastres rintratz vòstrei tropèus" on Mudcat (original lyrics, singable translation and midi). It must go back to the 16th century or so.
Micoulau is still Micoulau (or Micolau in standardized Oc), Nicolas is the French for it.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:10 AM

don't forget the wexford carol. a simple but beautiful medody with either gaelic or english lyrics. it dates back to the seventh century. one of the oldest christmass carols


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:02 PM

ollaimh, do you have a reference for the dating of the Wexford Carol? Beautiful song. It was collected by WH Grattan Flood, who wasn't born until 1857. I've heard claims that this (and some other songs) 'go back to [insert century]', but without any reference to back up the claim. Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day is one such example that is claimed as that vague term 'mediaeval' (that covers 1,000 years!), but I can find no evidence either song goes back further than the 19th century. I'd be more than happy to be pointed towards the relevant dated mss.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Monique
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:20 PM

Tous les bourgeois de Chartres 16th-France (score and mp3)
Voisins, d'où venait ce grand bruit? 15th- France (score and midi)
Chansons de Noël, mostly French carols but it's worth having a look (scores and midis)


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Artful Codger
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 08:42 PM

If the Wexford carol you mean is the one starting "Good people all, this Christmastime" (aka. the Enniscorthy Christmas Carol), the text is largely derived, at some remove, from a black-letter ballad "All you who are to mirth inclin'd" (published by 1645). Grattan Flood collected the text and tune from a local singer, reworked the text, and submitted it to the editors of The Oxford Book of Carols, who reworked the text some more. The first four-and-a-half verses appear in Shawcross's Old Castleton Christmas Carols (1904).

The New Oxford Book of Carols contains a different version of the text, taken from The Wexford Carols (1982), in turn taken from a broadside published by the County Wexford Museum in Enniscorthy, as sung by Fr. Patrick Cummins c.1912.

But the important point, in regard to the original request, is the age of the tune, which remains a question. While it sounds "traditional", it can only be firmly dated to Flood's collection of the carol in 1912. Jack Devereux, who provided the melodies for The Wexford Carols, sang this text to the tune for "Ye sons of men" (#161 in the NOBoC).


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 04:47 AM

Thank you so much, Artful Codger. The Wexford Carol's textual basis will be this ballad, then. To my ears, The Wexford Carol is an improvement but, as you rightly say, the evidence says the finished product is well outside of The Night Watch dates. We could work up an arrangement of the broadside, but we already have plenty of songs - it's tunes we're looking for (as stated in the original post).

Thanks all, once again. I didn't expect so many responses - and of such quality, too - to what I thought may be an esoteric request. This is Mudcat at its best!

Stower


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls
From: Stower
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 04:50 AM

Sorry, that last post was me. Don't know where my cookie went.

Stower


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