Help: houlihan? - Old Paint

Subject: houlihan? (Old Paint)
From: Ken
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 03:18 AM

Can somebody please enlighten me as to the meaning of the word houlihan as used in "I ride an old paint".

What is it? How and why do you throw it? why must you go to Montana to do it?

This has puzzled me since I first learned the song but can find no reference to it anywhere else.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Brakn
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 03:33 AM

Check this previous thread.

Click here

Mick Bracken

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: GUEST,Vince
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 02:14 PM

In 1942, at Camp Barkeley Tx,old regular army Sgt, former West Tx cowhand, told me that the correct words (the raat words)were"thraw the Hula Hand"..referred to throwing the twirling loop of the lasso . Old cow-hand slang was just as complex as Cockney slang is today

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 03:15 PM

I checked out the other thread, and my dad said that hoolihan was indeed a way to throw a rope. Rather than coming down from the top and falling over the critters head, a hoolihan is a way to throw a loop so that it comes up from under the head. Used primarily on horses, but also "spooky" cows. I would guess that hoolihan and hooly-ann are dialect variations of the same word.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:31 PM

The word houlihan or (Hula Hand) as in Vince's answer above probably does refer to throwing a rope. Throughout the years it's meaning may have become mixed up with the Irish slang "Hooley" meaning party. The origin of "Hooley" was brought back to Ireland from India by Irishmen serving in the British Army there and derives from the Hindustani word "HOOLIE" which is a Hindu festival. I often wondered about it's true meaning myself. Thanks Vince.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:35 PM

In one of the songbooks I have at home, it says a "houlihan" is a cow, and the "throw the houlihan" is an unfortunate lyric in that it's meaningless.

Maybe they just got the word wrong?

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:38 PM

Taking up a point from that other thread, I've always assumed that the line in that sonmg, "They're firy and snuffy and ready to go" means that the cattle are edgy, and liable to stampede if anything noisy happens, so you ride around them slow and easy, and hope they find the sound of the song soothing.

I've never been a cowboy, but I do know that cows like singing and music. I remember standing by a roadside next to a field hitchhiking with a guitar, and there weren't any lifts, so I started playing, and the cows in the field came over to that end of the field and stood around listening. Tolerant creatures, because I don't think it could have sounded too good.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:30 PM

jeez talk about Mondegreens, I always thought the line was "the fire and the snuffy are ready to go" and referred to the branding iron.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Áine
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:42 PM

Would someone be so kind as to post the whole set of lyrics to the song in question? I have a theory about this expression; but, I need to see the whole song and the context in which 'houlihan' is used.

Thanks beaucoups in advance, Áine

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library)
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:57 PM

Aine, it's in the DT: I RIDE AN OLD PAINT

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:58 PM

Aine, click here.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library)
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:12 PM

Ha ha, Sorcha! Beatcha to it! :-)

Alex O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Áine
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:22 PM

Thanks to you both ;-) I'll be back with my pontification on this here matter after supper and the hockey game (Go Stars!). Even if it's just a bunch of bollocks, it'll be fun to see what y'all think of it!

Later dudes and dudettes, Áine

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:56 PM

I once worked for an old guy who "rode the rods" in his youth, and he said that to throw the houlahan meant to get blind drunk and dance wildly.

Subject: Lyr Add: I RIDE AN OLD PAINT^^^
From: Gary T
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:02 PM

Here are the lyrics from Cowpie:

I ride an old Paint, I lead an old Dan.
I'm off the Mantan' for to throw the hoolihan.
They feed in the coulees,they water in the draw;
Their tails are all matted, their backs are all raw.

Chorus:
Ride a- round, little dogies, ride a-round slow,
For the fiery and snuffy are a-rarin' to go.

Old bill Jones had two daughters and a song;
One went to Denver,& the other went wrong.
His wife, she died in a poolroom fight,
And he sings this song from morning till night.

Oh, when I die, take my saddle from the wall,
Put it on my pony and lead him from the stall.
Tie my bones to his back,turn our faces to the west,
And we'll ride the prairies we love the best.^^^
___________________________________________________

"I'm off the Mantan'" sounds nonsensical, I would have to say that's a misheard "I'm off to Montan'/Montana".

In the DT version, it has "...they're fiery and snuffy..." as mentioned by McGrath. However, there's also a note at the bottom indicating that some versions have the line "...the fiery and snuffy...", as mentioned by Metchosin and found on Cowpie. In either case, whether those words are adjectives or nouns derived from adjectives, it would sure be nice to know what "snuffy" means.

In some previous threads it was mentioned that one meaning of "hoolihan" was a melee of sorts. That would make sense if the lyrics were "..join the hoolihan..." or some such. Another meaning was a method of wrestling an animal down. That would make sense if the song said "...do the hoolihan..." or something similar. But "...throw the hoolihan..." really only makes sense to me if the hoolihan in question is a rope technique, as explained by Vince and Sorcha.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Ely
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:02 PM

They do throw cattle--they "throw" them on their sides to brand them--so it would make sense. They way I learned it, the verse after it was something about "they feed in the coolies, they water in the draw, their tails are all matted, their backs are all raw." I was never sure if it meant the cattle (which would make sense with "houlihan") or the horses in the remuda (possibly they were saddle-sore?).

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:23 PM

Ely I always thought it referred to the cattle, but now that you pointed it out, it also makes just as much sense as a reference to the horses.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:44 PM

We'll see what Aine has to say, but I always figured that "snuffy" referred to the snort/snuffle cattle make when they are just milling around, so firey and snuffy would mean ready to hit the trail, or stampede especially if the "dogies" (motherless calves) were restless and upset. Unhappy babies tend to make unhappy grown ups. Keep the babies quiet, and you keep everybody else quiet.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Áine
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 10:58 PM

OK guys, the Stars are getting their collective booties kicked by the Canucks, and I just can't stand to look anymore...Geez, they've even pulled Belfour out of the net and put in the rookie goalie who has two whole NHL games under his jersey...

So, here's my theory:

When I started reading this thread and got an idea of what the song might be about (and after checking out the previous thread mentioned by Brakn), something clicked in my head. I remembered a phrase that my grandmother (the daughter of an Irish-speaking woman from County Derry) used to use often to say that she'd been completely confused, "Well, that threw me into a hoolah hallah!"

So, knowing how the sound of the letter 'u' tends to become elongated as it moves west in the States, I broke out my Irish dictionary, and what do I find? Three different phrases used to describe a "confusion, commotion, uproar, noise of the chase". In Irish, the phrases are spelled holam halam, hulm halm, and hulach halach. Say 'em fast enough, and you can hear where "houlihan" might have developed as a pronunciation.

Now, let's assume that the "houlihan" in the song is indeed a particular roping technique. To "throw a confusion" onto/into to someone or something would be a very appropriate phrase in Irish to say that you tricked someone/something, or overcame them in a devious fashion. Exactly what a cowboy would be wanting to do to the cattle that needed to be roped.

And I agree that the phrase "fiery and snuffy" is describing their mood as being restless and ready for the trail after being penned up. If you've ever been around cattle, you'd instantly recognize that 'snuffy' noise and stay out their way. And I'm betting that 'fiery' is referring to the way that cattle roll their eyes around when they're upset, showing the red veins in the muscles of their eye sockets.

Well, there ya go. Like I said, it's just my theory; but, I thought it'd be fun to throw it in the water and see if it floats! ;-)

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: ddw
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:08 PM

The definition I've always heard for "hoolihan" (regardless of the spelling) jibes with the ones early in the thread — that it's a style of roping.

As for going to Montana to do it, was it a technique used regionally? I know cowboys from different areas used different techniques (note the argument-song Windy Bill, which is based on how the cowboy takes his dallies (i.e. loops of the rope around the saddle horn). In the Texas style the loops are tight and the horse stops very quickly, yanking the cow off her feet. The California style uses looser loops and slows the cow more slowly.

Ely, I don't think there is any question that the lines you're wondering about refer to the Old Paint he rides and the Old Dan he leads. There's narry a mention of cows in that verse.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Ely
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:51 PM

I was just wondering--it comes right after a cow verse. I've also heard the two sung as one verse, so I guess I'm not the only one who's been confused. I was rather disappointed in the cowboys for letting their horses get saddle sores, though.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: ddw
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:08 AM

Ely,

It wasn't the horses getting the saddle sores — it was the cowboys. The reference to the horses' backs being raw was to the area between the saddle and the withers (front shoulders) that were sometimes rubbed raw by the rope that tethered a roped cow to the saddle horn.

I ride an old Paint, I lead an old Dan. I'm off the Montana for to throw the hoolihan. They feed in the coulees,they water in the draw; Their tails are all matted, their backs are all raw.

I don't see any reference at all in the verse to cows and it's the first verse of the song. Take out the second line — which describes what the rider is doing and says nothing about the animals — and it's still back to horses.

david

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:25 AM

Aine, I think I agree with you, as I have discovered that a LOT of "Cowboy" and Western songs have deep roots into Irish culture. Tunes, esp. My computer is acting up and I might have 2 minutes, before a 30 min reboot, but several songs/tunes come to mind. One that comes to mind is "When The Work's All Done Next Fall" is exactly the same melody as "Goin Back to Mill(t?)own". Both talk about seeing mother next fall, also.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Mikey joe
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 07:13 AM

Another possibility is the fact that Houlihan is a very common Irish surname. Maybe poor old Mr Houlihan ended up in a ditch or hole somewhere?!?!

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: richardw
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 12:41 PM

This post is a bit long, but---

It is interesting that this Old Paint or Hoolihan thread seems to reappear so often.

Hooly-ann (note the spelling) refers to a rope throw, not a rope. This is, as a couple of folks have mentioned, a head catch, used in a corral. "The roper carries the loop in his hand, and when the chance presents itself, he swings one quick whirl around in front of him toward the right and up over his head and releases the loop and rope in the direction of the target. As it comes over, it is turned in a way to flatten out before it reaches the head of the animal. It land straight down and so has a fair-sized opening."

Others refs in this book point out that twirling the rope over the head would excite the horses and be difficult when a whole gang of cowboys are trying to catch horses in the morning.

Hooligan wagon is used on short cattle drives for wood and water. Fay E. Ward, an old cowby who wrote The Cowboy At Work, calls this a hoolum wagon. He seems to be referring to a second two-wheel wagon that was sometimes trailered behind the chuck wagon.

Hoolihan is a cowboy term for foul or dirty play.

Hoolihaning is similar to bull dogging but knocks the steer down rather than wrestling. BUT, it is also used to refer to throwing a big time in town—to paint the town red.

This comes from Ramon Adams, Cowboy Dictionary, Norman Univ Okalahoma Press, 1968.

Seems clear that they are going to Montana and will then have a party at the end of the trail drive.

Facinating that the word seems to come from Ireland via India. I'm finding there are a lot of connections in the horse culture that are like that.

Snuffy is "a cowboy's term for a wild or spirited horse." Ramon Adams, Cowboy dictionary, Norman Univ Okalahoma Press.

My humble opinion is that firey and snuffy are definite referring to the horses, like the ones I was trying to hoof-trim yesterday who kept running around snorting and farting while we worked.

Re: the comments of dallying. The "Texas tie" was to tie the rope hard and fast to the saddle horn. A practioner of this was called a "tie-hard" or tie-hard-and-fast-man." It is not common in the north where dallys are wrapped (sometimes with a thumb in the loop like a thumbless neighbour of mine.)

The above and a slightly different description of the rope toss is found in The Cowboy Encyclopedia by Richard W. Slatta.

Lomax says that a lot of folks sing one line wrong as Woody Guthrie got the words mixed and sang "their backs are all matted and tails are all raw."

He alos points out that some folks sing "two daughters and a son," rather than the correct word "song."

This is on our next CD, "Halters and Hackamores" so the discussion is certainly interesting. If it helps for credibity my son is working wrangler.

Richard Wright

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: richardw
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 12:43 PM

duplicate post deleted by elf

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: richardw
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:23 PM

Thanks elf.

Sorcha. Where might I find Going Bacl to Millto(w)n?

Thanks Richard Wright

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:55 PM

Áine's etymology sounds right to me. It'd explain why the word could mean a rope trick, and also a party - both involve confusion.

In the context of the song I'd have thought party/shindig makes more sense than rope-trick. "When this cattle trail is over, I'm going to have a high old time" seems more likely than "When I get where I'm going I'm going to practice this neat rope trick". Though I suppose they might be having somne kind of rodeo and he's planning to win the rope trick prize.

Incidentally - has anyone got any idea where that word I just used, "shindig", meaning party, comes from, and why?

(I think it was Carl Sandburg who first brought this song to popular attention, with the words given in Cowpie.)

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Airto
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 01:18 PM

From Brewer's:

"Shindy A row, a disturbance. To kick up a shindy, to make a row. (Gipsy, chinda, a quarrel.)"

I always took shindig to be a reference to clumsy dancing, especially Irish dancing, where you might get (or administer, in my case) an accidental dig in the shins. It's obviously an adaptation of shindy, but maybe my original thought is right as well.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Áine
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 01:44 PM

In re 'shindig': I went to my handy OED and looked this up. Here's what it says:

shindig - U.S.

1899 Bartlett Dict. Amer. Shin-Dig, a blow on the shins.

1892 Kentucky Words in Amer. Dial. Notes, Shindig, a dance or party.

1899 Westm. Gaz. 31 Oct. 8/3, The natives . . . in a number of instances have danced a kind of 'shindig' as soon as released from torture.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 03:49 PM

I imagine it's really the same word as "shinty" - the Scottish equivalent of the game of hurling.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 06:30 PM

ATTN: richardw---It's Coming Back to Miltown" and it is on CD # 308 Legacy International titled Irish Traditional Fiddle Music, Reels, Jigs and Polkas/Cieli Band Music (ciele their spelling) I think I bought it from Barnes and Noble several years ago.

Or, you could PM me your surface address and I will copy it to cassette and mail it to you.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan?
From: Airto
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 06:03 AM

Right again, McGrath!

The Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue:

"schinnie/shinnie/shiny/shinye, n,

(schinnie,)/shinnie/ shiny/ shinye, n, [Obscure. Cf. Gaelic sinteag a skip, a pace, later Scots shinty (1769) thegame, (1773) the stick, 18th century English shinney (1794) the stick.]"

Sinteag and shindig are clearly the same word. So a shindig is a rowdy class of a hooley involving some lepping about the place. The concept of digs on the shins is purely coincidental, but may help explain how the term became popular in the English language.

I've no idea how old the Gypsy word chinda is, and whether all three words derive ultimately from the same or separate sources. Shinty matches could be very robust affairs and they were sometimes used to settle local disputes, so the adoption of the term to refer to quarrels is certainly possible. Or maybe chinda is a much older word whose similarity to sinteag/shindig is also coincidence.

Does anybody know?

Subject: Lyr Add: GOOD-BY, OLD PAINT
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 10:18 AM

Lyr Add:
GOOD-BY, OLD PAINT I

My foot in the stirrup, my pony won't stan',
Good-by old Paint, I'm a-leavin' Cheyenne,
I'm a-leavin Cheyenne, I'm off for Montan';
Good-by old Paint, I'm a-leavin' Cheyenne. (1)

I'm a-ridin' old Paint, I'm a-leadin' old Fan;
Good-by, old Paint, I'm a-leavin' Cheyenne.
With my feet in the stirrups, my bridle in my hand;
Good-by, old Paint, I'm a-leavin' Cheyenne.

Old Paint's a good pony, he paces when he can;
Good-by, little Annie, I'm off for Cheyenne.
Oh, hitch up your horses and feed 'em some hay,
And seat yourself by me as long as you stay.

My hosses ain't hungry, they won't eat your hay;
My wagon is loaded and rollin' away.
I'm a-ridin' old Paint, I'm a-leadin old Dan, (2)
I'm a-goin' to Montan' to throw the hoolihan. (3)

They feed in the coulees, they water in the draw,
Their tails are all matted, their backs are all raw.
Old Bill Jones had two daughters and a song;
One went to Denver, the other went wrong.

His wife died in a pool-room fight,
And still he sings from morning till night.
I'm a rambler and a gambler and far from my home,
And those that don't like me can leave me alone.

Oh, whiskey and beer, they are nothing to me,
They killed my old Dad, now they can try me.
I'll tell you the truth, not lyin' or jokin',
I'd rather be in jail than to be heart-broken.

Oh, when I die take my saddle from the wall,
Put it on my pony, lead him from the stall,
Tie my bones to his back, turn our faces to the west,
And we'll ride the prairie that we love the best.

As published in Cowboy Songs and other Frontier Ballads, John A. and Alan Lomax, 1910 revised 1938, p. 12-14, with music.
(1) "The final line of each stanza may be repeated ad libidum as a refrain." (2) "Or, with a pack on old Baldy and riding old Dan." (3) "hoolihaning- the act of leaping forward and alighting on the horns of a steer in bulldogging in such a manner as to knock the steer down without having to twist him with a wrestling hold. This practice is barred in practically all ... rodeos. Also to throw a big time in town- to paint the town red." Ramon F. Adams, Western Words, 1944, p. 79. Not to be confused with hooley-ann, a roping term. See posting by RichardW, above, in this thread for a more complete explanation.

In the later American Ballads and Folk Songs (1934), changes were made. Two-line, rather than 4-line stanzas were employed. Some stanzas were re-written and others left out. Lomax says Boothe Merrill "gave me this song in 1910, in Cheyenne, Wyoming..." A definite refrain was added.

GOOD-BY, OLD PAINT II

My foot in the stirrup, my pony won't stan',
I'm a-leavin Cheyenne, I'm off for Montan'.
Cho.
Good-by, old Paint, I'm a-leavin' Cheyenne,
Good-by, old Paint, I'm a-leavin' Cheyenne. (1)

I'm a-ridin' old Paint, I'm a-leadin' old Fan,
Good-by, little Annie, I'm off for Cheyenne.

Old Paint's a good pony, he paces when he can,
Good morning, young lady, my hosses won't stand.

Oh, hitch up your hosses and feed 'em some hay,
And seat yourself by me as long as you stay.

My hosses ain't hungry, they'll not eat your hay,
My wagon is loaded and rolling away.

I am a-riding old Paint, I am a-leading old Dan,
I'm going to Montan' for to throw the hoolihan.

They feed in the coulees, they water in the draw,
Their tails are all matted, their backs are all raw.

Old Bill Jones had two daughters and a song;
One went to Denver, and the other went wrong.

His wife died in a pool-room fight,
And still he sings from morning to night.

Oh, when I die, take my saddle from the wall,
Put it on my pony, lead him from the stall.

Tie my bones to his back, turn our faces to the west,
And we'll ride the prairie that we love the best.

(1) "To be repeated until one thinks of more words or the waltz stops." Boothe Merrill told Lomax that the song "was popular at times in western Oklahoma. For the last dance all other music is stopped, and the revelers, as they dance to a slow waltz time, sing "Good-by, Old Paint." (I have seen this in New Mexico, 1930s).

I RIDE AN OLD PAINT

See posting by Gary T., above, for the words, taken from Cowpie. These are the words published by singer, poet, and song collector Margaret Larkin, 1931, in her book, Singing Cowboy, A Book of Western Songs, p. 34-35. She made no comments, but Carl Sandburg, 1927, in The American Songbag, p. 12-13 said "a song made known by Margaret Larkin of Las Vegas, New Mexico ...and by Linn Riggs... The song came to them at Santa Fe from a buckaroo who was last heard of as heading for the Border..." This tale probably originated with Linn Riggs, a playright and poet, and story teller. Sandburg used the Larkin version, but added "them" to the chorus (Ride around them slow). Sandburg comments on "the rich poetry..." I agree with RichardW, who in his posting says fiery and snuffy refer to horses.
Other singers revised the text, and regional variations sprang up. The song lends itself to the creation of new verses.
I know of no reliable mention of the song before 1910.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 06:52 PM

Always found this a strange verse for this song.

In the middle of the ocean there grows a tall tree
I'll never prove false to the gal (or girl) that loves me.
Barry

Subject: Lyr Add: OH LILY, DEAR LILY and MY FOOT IS IN...
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 01:52 PM

Related Songs

OH LILY, DEAR LILY
(fragments- anyone have a complete song?)

A. My foot is in the stirrup, my bridle's in my hand,
I'll go court another, an' marry if I can.
Oh Lily, oh Lily, my Lily fare you well,
I'll sorrow to leave you, for I love you so well.

B. One foot in the stirrup, My rein in my hand,
So fare you well, Molly, My donky won't stand.

So fare you well Molly, I'll bid you adieu,
I'm ruined forever By the lovin' of you.

Tune shown (may also be sung to Old Paint or Jack O' Diamonds).
Vance Randolph, "Ozark Folksongs," No. 731, p. 205 vol. 4.

MY FOOT IS IN THE STIRRUP

My foot is in the stirrup,
My prick is in my pants,
I'll go hunt a new cunt,
And take another chance.

Oh Molly, oh Molly,
You better let me pass,
I'm glad for to leave you,
And you can kiss my ass.

My money's in my pocket,
My pistol's in my hand,
I'm going to do my plowing
In some cleaner, greener land.

Oh Molly, oh Molly,
You better let me pass,
I am through with the likes of you,
And you can kiss my ass.

Sung by H. C., Harrison, AK, 1950, but he said it dated back to 1898.
Vance Randolph, 1992, "Roll Me in Your Arms," "'Unprintable' Ozark Folksongs and Folklore,' Vol. 1, Folksongs and Music, p. 275, with music, Univ. Arkansas Press.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,VRDPKR
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:33 PM

It is not a rope trick. It is a rope throw. Check out Jim Bob Tinsley's "He was a'singin' this song". The song goes back to Charlie Willis, a black cowhand working for the Stadler Bros ranch in Texas shortly after the Civil War. He was a wrangler for the outfit and made some eight or ten trips from Texas to another ranch the Stadler Bros owned in Montana. It is common on the range for the wrangler to "catch out" whichever horse will be used by a cowboy on a given day. The cowboy will call out the name of the horse he is planning on riding that day and the wrangler will rope him out. The wrangler's job is to "Throw the hoolihan". One of the interesting verses given by Jesse Morris, as recorded by Lomax in 1950 (he was an 70 year old Texas fiddle player who knew Charlie when Jesse was a young boy and Charlie worked for Jesse's father) explains leaving Cheyenne, off to Montana, which seems a short trip.

Old Paint had a colt, down on the Rio Grand
The colt couldn't pace, they called her Cheyenne
Goodbye, Old Paint, we're leaving Cheyenne

Old time cowboys didn't like to start breaking colts until they were 4 or 5 years old. They wern't thought strong enough to carry a person til then. If Cheyenne was only 1 or 2 years old she would have been left at the home ranch while the herd was trailed North.

It is well know that most Anglo cowboy terms for gear and methods came from vacqueros of Mexico. I wonder if the original rope technique came from someone named Julian so the lariat (org. la riata, the rope) was thrown like Julian does it?

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:05 PM

Two terms need to be defined here. These from "Western Words, 1944, Ramon F. Adams, p. 79:
1. hooyey-ann- "A roping term. This throw can be made either from the ground or on horseback. The roper carries the loop in his hand, and when the chance presents itself, he swings one quick whirl around in front of hi, toward the right, up over his head, and releases the loop and rope in the direction of the target. Asd it comes over, it is turned in a way to cause it to flatten out before it reaches the head of the animal to be roped. It lands straight down, and so has a fair sized opening."
"It is a fast loop and is strictly a head catch, being especially used to catch horses in a corral."

2. hoolihaning- "The act of leaping forward and alighting on the horns of a steer in bulldogging in such a manner as to knock the steer down without having to resort to twisting him down with a wrestling hold. This practice is barred in practically all recognized rodeos.
Also to throw a big time in town- to paint the town red."

Donald Gilbert y Chavez, author of "Cowboys-Vaqueros, Origins of the first American Cowboys," has an extensive glossary of Vaquero/Cowboy Lingo, but does not include either term, so it is likely neither is of vaquero origin.
His booklet has been put on line by the University of New Mexico: Vaquero Lingo

Most of this is in another thread, but not certain which one.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:14 PM

Reading back through this thread, I find that it is the one in which Richardw defined and explained the terms hooley-ann and hoolihan, 26 Oct. 00.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:29 AM

The order of verses in "Old Paint" is uncertain.
In the 1910 version (Lomax), is this verse:

Old Paint's a good pony, he paces when he can;
Goodbye Little Annie, I'm off for Cheyenne.
In the other verses, the singer is leaving Cheyenne.
In 1938, Lomax set the words in 4-line verses. To this one he added the next verse;
Oh, hitch up your horses and feed 'em some hay,
And seat yourself by me so long as you stay.

Lomax added sixteen unattributed lines in 1938 to those printed in 1910, and said that they all came from a "friend of college days" whom he met in Cheyenne as they were attending the 1910 Frontier Days; the song said to have been collected in Oklahoma.

The Cheyenne Frontier Days began in 1897 near old Fort Russell. I have wondered if this is a song about going to and returning from the rodeo. Probably no more unlikely than the Jesse Morris tale.

Lomax says the song was used for the last dance. For a later date, I can verify that from my own 1930s childhood in New Mexico.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:47 PM

hoolihan

From: Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang - Vol 2, H-O J.E. Lighter Editor, Random House New York, p 147.

n. West 1. (among cowboys) (see 1985 quot.), 1910 in Lomax and Momax Amer. Ballads 384: I am a-riding old Paint, I am a-leading old Dan,/I'm goin' to Montan' for to throw the hoolihan. 1985 H. Cannon Cowboy Poetry 138: Hoolihan backhand thrown loop for roping horses.

2. an exciting or extraordinary event.

1973 E. Carter Outlaw Wales 182: Seen him take on five pistoleros. He got three of 'em before they cut him down….It was a real hoolihan.

P/ In phrase:
P/ thrown the hoolihand [fr. sense of 9a), above] (among cowboys) to celebrate riotously.

1944 R. Adams Western words: Hoolihan, throw the. to paint the town red.

hoolihan v. [perh. obscurely fr. Houlihan Irish family name] West to buldog (a steer) by bringing it to the ground without twisting its neck.

1925 W. James Drifting Cowboy 105: I hoolyhanned him on the jump and busted him right there. 1933 J.V. Allen Cowboy Lore12: Hoolihaning is the act of leaping forward and alighting on the horns of a steer in bull-dogging in a manner to knock the steer down without twisting the animal down with a wrestling hold. Hoolihaning is banned at practically all recognized contests. 1936 Mc Carthy Mossburn (unp) Hoolihaning. The old-time practice of bulldogging.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I believed I had posted this before...but it appears not...sorry for being slow.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:46 PM

Perhaps I should quote the full explanation of the term hooley-ann.

Hooley-ann:
"A roping term. The throw can be made either from the ground or on horseback. The roper carries the loop in his hand, and when the chance presents itself, he swings one quick whirl around in front of him toward the right, up over his head, and releases the loop and rope in the direction of the target. As it comes over, it is turned in a way to cause it to flatten out before it reaches the head of the animal to be roped. It lands straight down and so has a fair-sized opening.
It is a fast loop and is strictly a head catch, being especially used to catch horses in a corral. It is thrown with a rather small loop and has the additional virtue of landing with the honda sliding down the rope, taking up the slack as it goes." W. M. French, "Ropes and Roping, 1940, "Cattleman" vol. 26, no. 12 (May), pp. 17-30; quoted in Ramon F. Adams, 1946, "Western Words," p. 79.
"The rope has not been slung over the horse's head, for to sling it so would cause even the steadiest old horse to become excited. Using the hooley-ann, half a dozen men can rope mounts at the same time without exciting the horses." John M. Hendrix, 1935, "Roping," "Cattleman" vol. 22, No. 1, (June) pp. 16-17.

Houlihan has already been satisfactorily explained.

"Hooligan"- Sometimes mistakenly put in the song. Throwing one would be difficult, since this is a wagon used on short drives to carry fuel and water.

Honda- A knotted or spliced eyelet at the business end of a rope for making a loop. A Spanish term meaning 'eye.'

In Gargoyle's post- Cannon, the 'cowboy poet," seemingly has never thrown a hoolihan (or a hooley-ann).
Will James was an French-Canadian writer (Ernest Dufault) and illustrator of western stories (from Quebec) who had a little experience as a cowhand as a teenager.

Lighter's "Dictionary of American Slang" has errors resulting from poor selection of 'authorities' (such as Cannon and James). Overall a good work, but with flaws (this can be said of most references that try to "cover the waterfront"). For details, more specific references must be used.

"Thrown the hoolihand"- Reference for the additional 'd'? Certainly seldom heard.

The origin of the terms is unknown, although some speculate that Hoolihan comes from the Irish name. Neither term seems to have antecedents in Vaquero or Texas Spanish.
The definitions are lacking in Gilbert y Chavez, Vaquero/Cowboy Lingo, Chap. Nine. Lingo
Or click on to the beginning of this fascinating booklet (on line) Cowboys Vaqueros

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 03:56 PM

Seems like there are two or maybe three "Old Paint" songs, though they are related in meter and (to a lesser extent) in melody.

"Goodbye, Old Paint" is the song John Lomax first printed in the 1916 (not the 1910) edition of "Cowboy Songs." It characteristically features the chorus, "Goodbye, Old Paint, I'm (a-)leaving Cheyenne."
The version performed by Texan Jess Morris (well presented in Tinsley's book, based on Morrisss recording for the Library of Congress)is presumably the earliest in substance, since Morris said he'd learned it from Charlie Willis around 1870. How much, if anything, Morris may have altered the "original" text over the years is, naturally, unknown.

Morris's version may vary just enough in text and tune from the 1916 Lomax version to be considered a "different song." But this is an entirely subjective judgment.

A clearly different song is generally called "I Ride an Old Paint."
Sandburg's "American Songbag" of 1927 provides the first known printing. As Q and others have noted, Sandburg says he got this song from Margaret Larkin, who got it from Lynn Riggs. Riggs was the ranch-bred Oklahoma author of the hit Broadway musical "Green Grow the Lilacs," which provided the acknowledged basis for Rodgers' and Hammersteins' '40s show (and '50s film) "Oklahoma!" Though not a professional composer, Riggs was undoubtedly capable of creating "I Ride an Old Paint" all by himself, based on his familiarity with Western themes; Sandburg's report that Riggs and Larkin had both learned it from an unknown "buckaroo...heading for the Border" is best taken with a grain of salt. It might be true or not, or partially true; Larkin and Riggs together may have fleshed out some cowboy's refrain.

We'll probably never know about that, but the significant point is that "I Ride an Old Paint" can't be firmly dated before 1926 or '27, and is first reported from Santa Fe, N.M.

I'll pick up this thread later this evening. Gotta go!

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Louie Roy
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:13 PM

I wrangled quite a few horses in my younger day and if you were going to catch horses in a corral you didn't lasso them you used the rope toss called the houlihan for if you didn't all you got was the back of their neck because horses in a corral run with their head down and this is why you used a catch loop called a houlihan which is throwed from the side and from the ground up similar to roping the hind feet of a steer.The term houlihan probably came from somewhere in Europe with the 1st settlers that arrived here

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Louie Roy
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 07:00 PM

One other thing I forgot to mention in my other message.In bulldogging steers you will hear the announcer refer the steer to a houlihan and what he is refering to is the steer is running with its head down and 9 out of 10 times the cowboy will miss the steer especilly if he is going for the horns and if he lands farther back and slides up to the neck and horns the steer will set up and all he'll get is a arm full of air

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 08:24 PM

Some cowboys mistakenly use the term houlihan (hoolihan) in place of hooley-ann, the head catch with a loop. Some spell it hoolihan and pronounce it hooley-ann.
Adams, "Western Words" (1936), and Hendrix in his "Roping" (1935), as previously noted, properly define hooley-ann.

The name hooleyann, some Texans claim, may come from the town Hooleyan (formerly Hooleyann), Texas, which was founded in the 1890s. It is four miles south of the Red River in extreme northwest Hardeman County, northwest Texas. The County was covered with prairie, and the western half is still ranching country. See the Handbook of Texas, on line: Hardeman County

There's a bit of western poetry somewhere on the web that has this verse. I just have a piece of it; if I find it again I will give the website:

'Cause he'd duck an' dodge an' roll back on his hocks like Peppy San,
While I'm snaggin' air an' fence posts with my handy hooleyann,
An' if by chance he tripped my snare, he'd rear an' pitch an' paw,
An' leave me plowin' furrows with my nose an' bottom jaw.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 09:23 PM

I punched the wrong key and probably 1000 words of carefully prepared commentary on "Old Paint" went up in smoke! Damn these machines!! But Mudcat wins because now I have to summarize....

John Lomax's claim that he first heard an "Old Paint" song at Cheyenne in 1910 (from his old college chum Boothe Merrill) is borne out by the fact that "Goodbye, Old Paint" first appears, not in the 1910 first edition of "Cowboy Songs" but in the 1916 revised edition.
The closest John and Alan came to publishing the song "I Ride an Old Paint," first printed by Sandburg in 1927, was when they boldly tacked all the stanzas of that song (with a couple o verbal alterations) onto the end of 1916's "Goodbye, Old Paint." Maybe a contributor sent them in anonymously sometime after 1916. Yeah, maybe.

Anyhow, this all means that the earliest known appearance of "throw the hoolihan" was not in 1910 but in 1927. (Sandburg spelled it "hoolian"; in her own book in 1931 Larkin spelled it "houlihan.")
That date makes it even less likely that the word was well-known on the trail as much as fifty years before. I like Q's suggestion that the word may well come from (nearby) Hooleyann Co., Texas rather than from the Irish surname "Hoolihan" or "Houlihan." eary info that this style of roping was somehow associated with that county would pretty much nail down the derivation; perhaps the same area was responsible for the "hoolihaning" of steers, as described by Louie Roy and other cow folks. We may never know, but the hypothesis haas the triple-threat appeal of culture, phonetics, and geography.

As Q also suggests, and as I am now persuaded by new research, "hoolihan" (however you spell it) is primarily a roping term, secondarily a bulldogging term. Ramon Adams's 1944 definition of "throw the hoolihan" as "paint the town red" now begins to seem like a somebody's SWAG to explain the phrase in - guess where? - "I Ride an Old Paint."

Without going into detail, let me say that the song makes the best sense to me when the words are rendered,

             A-ridin' old Paint, a-leadin' old Dan,
             I'm bound to Montan' for to throw the hoolian....

And,

             They're fiery and snuffy and rarin' to go.

That is, of course, to stompede.

IMO, the refrain makes little sense at is usually sung,

               Ride around, little dogies,
               Ride around them slow....
                  

I prefer to think the original word was not "dogies," but "Doney," another commonly given name for a horse, with the original meaning of "sweetie," as established, IIRC, in some far distant thread. The rider urges his horse to ride around the drowsy dogies slow so as not to spook them.

Woody Guthrie and the Almanac Singers seem to have added the stanza beginning "I've worked in the town and I've worked on the farm, And all I got to show is the muscle in my arm."   

Two interesting recordings of the other song, "Goodbye, Old Paint," are, first, the very influential one that Texas fiddler Jess Morris recorded for the Library of Congress about 1950 but said he learned from puncher Charley Willis before 1890 (Jess thought Charley had picked it up about 1870); and, second, a 2001 recording by Artie Morris - who says he's Charley's great-grandson.

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 10:00 PM

Ride aronnd, little doney, makes more sense than Ride around little dogies. That line has always bothered me.
More than one singer has sung 'throw the hooleyan (not sure of their spellings); one was Johnny Cash. Not a cowboy, but through time he probably knew several and got the word from them.

The song has nothing that might suggest the rider was going to throw a big drunk other than the word, which originally could have been hooleyann (hoolian, other sp.)as Lighter suggests.

Adams, for houlihan, has the preferred meaning of a barred type of bulldogging in addition to 'painting the town red.' However, I remember the word houlihan used for a big party as far back as just before WW2 in New Mexico-Colorado, when lots of us quit whatever we were doing and started painting the town when war seemed inevitable and before the army caught us in 1941-1942. It has to be older thn that (I don't think any of us got it from Sandburg- no one I knew had heard of him at that time).

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 03:17 PM

And if "doney" lacks appeal, you can sing, "Ride around them dogies, ride around 'em slow," which also makes good sense.

Q, thanks for the tip on the "big party" sense. As we know, one "throws" a big party and one "throws" the hoolihan. Connection? Beats me!

Novelist Kathleen Ann Goonan spoke for many in "Mississippi Blues"   (1997): "Oh, the music that bubbled through me.... What's a dan? What's a hoolihan? And where the hell was Montana? I didn't care."

Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:57 AM

Thanks all for your information. I loved the Linda Ronstadt version of Old Paint but had no idea what the song really meant ( apart from being about horses). Much clearer now.
Thanks again!
Yvonne