BS: Conservatives and Europe

Subject: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 06:54 PM

I am of course delighted to see Camer-moron badly miscalculate his control of his party and their serfs over Europe.

But I find it quite illustrative that his supporters for "later renegotiation" even in his own party choose human rights (which are not part of the acquis communautaire, but flow from the ECHR: not part of the EU or EEC as it used to be) as one of the things they object to, and also illustrative that they concentrate their fire on the GOOD bits of Europe for us: the social chapter and workers' rights.

Surely if they keep this up the penny must drop for the rest of the country what the conservatives REALLY stand for.

Fine, renegotiate straight bananas if you must, but the working time directive? Even the existing opt-out provisions are too much. How, for example, can you be safe when the doctor who is about to operate on you has done an 80 hour week already? This is something Thatcher specifically created as an opt-out.

The Safe Tea Elf has his excesses (for example I was refused permission to top up a dangerously low tyre the other evening by an ATS van that was doing a tyre on an artic, for "Health and safety" reasons. Now the airline at the motorway service station was out, so I had the choice of driving on up the motorway at 40mph, or abandoning my car, and he was using the same compressor to inflate a tyre on an artic - a safety critical component on a 40-tonner. Where is the contribution to safety in that?) but no-one wants to expose workers to dangerous conditions do they? Oh, my error - "Health and Safety" is one of the things the conservatives specifically object to.


European restrictions on barriers to trade are good for us: for example the recent ECJ ruling on trans-border broadcasts.


I'm not so keen on some ideas about trade mark law, or copyright law, but our own think tanks seem just as capable of getting those wrong - but at least Europe forms a barrier to some of the loonier restrictions on trade that US companies seek to impose (particularly on the internet and computer software).

Rough with the smooth. If you want to limit the powers your bosses have over you, Europe is your friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 07:12 PM

Great news. So now the over half of Poland can come live in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:19 PM

Since the 1960's the whole debate has been bedevilled by simplistic rhetoric. The actual issues are hard to define.

Someone said about Macmillan that his memoirs read like Talleyrand, but his actual policy was relieving England of the empire and its commitments and finding policies more in line with our modern contracted status.

The right wing of the tory party has never really been on board with this - and sees our natural allies as the Commonwealth countries. They cling to every vestige of empire from the Falklands to Northern Ireland.

I suppose it depends if we are going to keep up the world policing duties alongside the USA.   If so, Europe is a dead loss as a military ally.

I'd say the schizophrenia with regard to Europe is there deep in the heart of England. not just the tory party. ignore the debate and you hand it to the BNP and the right, which glories in it - but whose only real policy is turning the clock back.

Theres no real reason why we shouldn't have our own codes of health and safety and workers rights - the equal if not superior to Europe's without reference to agencies outside this country. No reason why we shouldn't have a proper constitution. perhaps its time to thoroughly overhaul the whole country - get rid of the monarchy, get rid of the house of Lords - just modernise England along the lines we need and choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:12 AM

I sympathise with you Bridge.

No, I really do.

It must be difficult trying to see where people are coming from when they pick on a small part of something and extrapolate it to generalise and cast doubt on a whole philosophy.

Come to think of it, I read some recently. Now, where was it? Oh! I reckon it was here on Mudcat. Can't for the life of me remember who it is who picks up a small point and would have us believe that it illustrates anything and everything about a whole way of thinking.

The conservatives do have a philosophical problem with Euro-integration it has to be said. Even though the most pro Euro Prime Ministers were Churchill and Heath. I reckon that pragmatism has to eventually win out and pro Euro Tories and Euro sceptic Liberals are a sign of allowing debate to transcend philosophy.

Not that the media would ever allow such a thing.....

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:30 AM

I welcome Eastern Europeans, for instance those working on reception at the Falstaff Hotel in Canterbury are infinitely more efficient than the English guy there!!

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:44 AM

'The conservatives do have a philosophical problem with Euro-integration it'

Philosophical my arse Ian! That lot aren't really Socrates and Bertrand Russel. the Euro question shouldn't really be a party political thing. But the euro sceptic tories are a bunch of nasty wankers. And theres nothing more sad than the the leadership trying to court them for their favours. eg John Major and his Save the Pound and the soapbox.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Max Johnson
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:46 AM

Thinking globally there, Bonzo. I like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:47 AM

It should, of course, be noted that the Labour MPs were 'whipped' to support the Government's view.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 06:33 AM

A small part, Mither? The economy is shrinking, so jeopardising the one thing that Camer-moron and Osbung really care about - the deficit and their plutocratic bond trader pals, the poorest are being hit hardest, money is being given away to the rich, the best bits of an alliance with our closest trading partners are the most objected to, foreign right-wing spooks are allowed to change our justice system, the welfare state is being dismantled and discarded.

If that's a "small part" there is a VERY large elephant somewhere.

It would be so much easier to manage the economy if Thatcher in a fit of neocon dogma had not dismantled exchange control. Freedom of capital is our greatest enemy - and the only bit of the EU the conservatives like!

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 07:17 AM

First cuntservatives, now Os-bung....do you want to talk politics or just dick around, Richard?

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 07:21 AM

There are no "poor" people in the UK - lazy people and spongers yes!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 08:16 AM

Good old Boko, ultra reliable at trotting out the party line.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 08:19 AM

He's like that bloody ayatollah bloke, walking round with his eyes glued to the ground so he does'nt have to look on the poor and disenfranchised.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 08:22 AM

I think Bozo is trying to get off with Edwina Currie, although she was no oil painting when younger and well past her sell-by date now.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 12:38 PM

Yes, I said small part and meant small part Bridge. You are the one pointing out what you don't like in terms of it affecting you, (copyright,) whilst extolling the virtues of Europe in the basis, a far as I can make out, that if 8/10 Tories are Eurosceptic, you have to be a Europhile. You also mentioned human rights as being the thing they object to despite it not being in the gift of the European Parliament. Don't rattle on about small parts and then seek to chastise those who carry on the theme. I don't mind discussing things on this site, quite cathartic really, but at least read what you put before snarling at me.

Al, I agree that some things should transcend party doctrine, but at the same time parties are entitled to having an overall philosophy on such matters, and the conservatives have difficulty leaving the union of Great Britain out of their thoughts, so anything pan Europe is bound to upset little Englander.

Being Eurosceptic and being a nasty wanker are not the same thing. Tell you what though, I notice most of the Tory Eurosceptics are much older than the Europhiles. If I were to say that is because younger peopler are less wedded to ideals and capable of reasoning on facts alone, I'd probably be talking out of my arse, but that doesn't stop me hoping I am right.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 12:42 PM

I see Bozo the Clown's at it again..regaling us with vast reservoir of....ummm...of....

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 07:13 PM

Many,Conservative back-benchers apparently are having a problem with being part of Europe as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:35 PM

Wrong again Mither - I support Europe in that it has helped to bring justice into parts of many people's lives. I object to it in the rarer cases when it has the opposite effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:11 AM

'Being Eurosceptic and being a nasty wanker are not the same thing. '

Oh agreed! I think its understandable from the wartime generation.

I remember when Nicohlas Ridley made his departing eurosceptic gaffe, I was chuckling with an old teaching mate who was a tory councillor about it - just how moderate Ridley's remarks were about Europe compared to most people Ridley's age......

I think to be honest - even our generation grew up with everyone around us saying the only good German is a dead one, and we were the generation satirised by Clousseau, Cleese's goose step and the 'going for an English' sketch. In short we had some prettyrepulsive aspects.

Having said that, when a young tory comes out with the 'little England line ' particularly one with a reasonable education. There really is only one plausible explanation - he is toadying to racists. he knows how much trade we do with Europe, he knows we aren't going to leave the EU. Its like fourteen year old William Haigh asking for more corporal punishment in schools. One senses a toadying little tyke - in short a nasty little wanker.

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Musket
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:50 AM

Yeah but the difference between Haigh and the rest of us is that his precocious outbursts as a pimply kid were broadcast around the world. When I was 14, the world might have listened to me saying we need Gandalf and Thorin to reincarnate and sort the world's ills.

As Foreign Secretary, he is about as good as they can choose from, although don't confuse that with agreeing with him or indeed the pool Cameron has to choose from. But in all fairness, I don't judge his foreign policy or technique on the basis of his teenage Andy Warhol 15 mins slot.

I am of the generation that laughed at casual racism and sexism. Saturday night at Manton Miners Welfare or the welfare in town, '70s comics and all that. Interestingly, I know that even then I would have been mortified at giving offence, but times change. We are allowed to laugh at today's "right on" comics on Dave channel as they rip the piss out of people for being born rich but pour scorn on comics who rip the piss out of people for being born black.

Interesting....

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Musket
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 06:52 AM

Bridge -

I apologise for being wrong again. When will I ever learn eh? Must read more of your posts so I can understand what it must be like to always be right.

You're my hero, you really are....

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 10:57 AM

Total disbelief that haigh is the best they've got. There must be hundreds of non irritating peole other than '15 pints a day' Haigh.

He's like gum disease - he's very annoying, or athletes foot.   You started feeling sorry for all these leaders after Thatch. major, IDS, Haigh, even Cameron - they've all got theses Thatcherite gang of arseholes yapping at their heels, and you do feel sorry for them. But eventually....compassion fatigue sets in.

The trouble is of course - they don't admit they spent the 1980's dropping bollocks. The national Curriculum; they should have remedied English industry by insisting on new management instead of continuing with the usual dopey old fuckers, or closing it down; monetarism; military adventures in Iraq; setting up the Taliban; the rise of Murdoch. Thatcher was an unmitigated disaster. And they simply won't face up to it. So they waited for Blair to torpedo them, and now they've got the comfortable fiction that all the problems are down to Blair (the man who claims to have an immortal soul, ho hum!).

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Ringer
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM

You have to have some sympathy for Richard Bridge; after all, it can't be easy carrying a chip that size on your shoulder all the time, can it?

"How, for example, can you be safe when the doctor who is about to operate on you has done an 80 hour week already?"

So you advocate no doctor rather that a tired doctor, Richard? I know which I'd prefer.

To the infantile, all is black and white. When you grow up, you will be able to say, "On the one hand... but then on the other hand..."

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 02:08 PM

I doubt if that applies in the private sector - thank Clapton!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives and Europe
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 02:14 PM

on one hand things are black and white, but on the other hand......

"To the infantile, all is black and white."