Palestine (continuation)

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:40 AM

"Previously he defended the view that Pakistanis are perverse people with a propensity for pedophilia."
Sorry Lox - he didn't - He single-handedly put forward the view that ALL MALE Pakistanis are culturally implanted with a tendency towards paedophelia
Get it right
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:51 AM

Malicious lie Jim.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 04:53 AM

--That is nuts. mg ~~~
,.,
Wowie, mg, that's telling 'em. I can feel the Pentagon quiver as the State Department quake from here!

~M~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 05:48 AM

Not My doctor Keith, Princeton University's doctor - his research is impeccable.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:02 AM

If anyone wishes to question the credibility of Finkelstein oor ask Finkelstein what his sources are they should write to him.

Beyond that, his proven track record of peer reviewed accurate and expert research at the highest and most rigorous level is enough of a guarantee for me.

He is Jewish, his parents were holocaust survivors and most of his family on his fathers side were murdered in concentration camps, so there is simply no question of any agenda other than a desire, (once again, proven by peer review at the very highest and most rigorous level) too report information accurately and truthfully.

There is nobody on this forum who has the academic or moral authority to question either his integrity or accuracy.

If you wish to pursue that line of thought, you should either contact him, or look up the source which he very explicitly gave - the Israeli foreign ministry's report on the ceasefire.


Aside from this, I am still laughing at Keiths absurd idea that the Israeli foreign ministry report was written iin sarcastic language.

Sorry but what a twat!

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:16 AM

"Malicious lie Jim."
Then help us out and cut'n paste who else said that "All male Pakistanis...cultural implant".
I can't find it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:51 AM

I was pleased to see the results of the UNESCO vote yesterday, less pleased to see the US response. But surprised by neither. The question now in this unfolding game of chess, is where from here? As said previously there has already been talk of an Israeli annexation of the West Bank, though I haven't seen such talk repeated in news thus far. As for now, one wonders what the consequences of withdrawal of US aid shall mean for stability and peace in the area however?

A thoughtful, and I believe unusually sympathetic, opinion piece in the Jerusalem Times on the potentially damaging consequences of US/Israeli economic punishment of the Palestinian bid for UN recognition:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=243936

"Palestinian logic to go to the UN was based on their sound assessment that no negotiated agreement could be reached with the current Israeli government.
...
The US, with support of the Israeli government, is using a diplomatic "stick" against the Palestinian Authority. US Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, who chairs the House Committee on Foreign Relations, is using her prerogative to put a hold on more than $200 million already approved to be allocated to the Palestinians. Most of that money has already been authorized and contracted out through the auspices of the USAID mission in Tel Aviv responsible for supporting Palestinian state-building and economic development in the West Bank and Gaza.
...
The immediate impact of this is the firing of many young Palestinian academics working for various US contractors and for Palestinian nongovernmental institutions. The USAID mission is also in the process of immediately scaling down, and soon many of its staff are likely to receive notices that their employment is suspended or canceled.
...
The Palestinian economy is already in a fragile state. Losing over $200 million in one blow, with the extra burden of increased unemployment of young academics, could cause considerable social unrest.
...
This would be a disaster; it would make the Palestinian security services look entirely like an arm of the Israeli occupation, delegitimizing their very existence.
...
The US legislator holding back the funds to the Palestinian Authority is playing with fire that could easily erupt inside of Israel. There is no desire in the West Bank for a deterioration of the situation into another round of violence. President Abbas remains fully committed to a non-violent approach to achieving statehood. No, he does not do what Israel would like him to do, but he is acting as the Palestinian president in Palestine's best interests, as he and his colleagues understand it. US and Israeli punishment of Abbas for not "behaving" is dangerous and foolish."

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:52 AM

Yesterday the "land of the free and the home of the brave" (bank-roller to some of the worst dictators, terrorist states and organisations in history) has voted to withhold a $60m dollar paymrnt it was due to make next month to UNESCO following a democratically held vote (107 for 14 against, 54 abstentions) to admit Palestine as a member.
Funny old world!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:58 AM

Jim, the cultural explanation for the offending came from others.
I merely reported it.
It was not my explanation.
I do not have the knowledge to produce such an explanation.
There was no mention of paedophilia at all.

You have had this explained to you many times.
You know you are lying, and the motive is malice.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:00 AM

Are these two twats going to be allowed to hijack this thread as well as the one they already got closed?

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:22 AM

The crazy thing is that Palestine's membership of UNESCO, and its proposed membership of the UN, actually amount to a formal recognition of Israel.

Israel and the US are more or less on the same side as Hamas in this particular dispute.

I don't think anyone has found a coherent reason for the Israeli position on this, which of course determines the position of the USA in falling in line.

...................
"The missiles came first" - there is no clear "first" in this conflict, Keith. Both sides can always point to some action of their opponents as the justification for every "response". You seem to seem to see this as justified so far as Israel's actions are concerned. I see it as unjustified from either side.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:28 AM

JimC: "Yesterday the [US] has voted to withhold a $60m dollar paymrnt it was due to make next month to UNESCO following a democratically held vote (107 for 14 against, 54 abstentions) to admit Palestine as a member."

This action will have twin consequences, including the loss of US voting rights and influence within UNESCO. If the US continues to make good threats of withdrawal of monies from all subsiduary bodies of the UN (and Abbas will be presenting the Palestinian application for membership, to as many of those as exist I believe) which vote to admit Palestine, it risks alienating itself - and diminishing it's international influence - further and further from the international community. In fact such concerns have been voiced from within the Obama administration itself (can't recall source offhand).

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:38 AM

Jerusalem Post, lively lass, not Jerusalem Times. I feel strongly about this error because my father spent a year as the paper's News Editor!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:49 AM

---Yesterday the "land of the free and the home of the brave" (bank-roller to some of the worst dictators, terrorist states and organisations in history) has voted to withhold a $60m dollar paymrnt it was due to make next month to UNESCO following a democratically held vote (107 for 14 against, 54 abstentions) to admit Palestine as a member.
Funny old world!!
Jim Carroll---

.,,.

For once I agree entirely, Jim. In fact, not even 'for once'. Another example of the Israeli intransigence which has driven me from any sort of support for, or identification with, that State ~~ with the sole exception of an unavoidable distaste for having the words Nazi or Holocaust used in any context in its regard... But this sort of US/Israeli bullying is likely, as that Jerusalem Post article points out, to be thoroughly counter—productive & invocative of the Unintended Consequences Law.

~M~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:50 AM

If by hijack you mean call you out for sticking up for a racist and inaccurate generalization about palestinians, then I don't think anyone is likely to have a problem.

Perhaps making unsupported assertions about the character of palestinians, or defending them is the hijack and the expert testimony pointing out the lie in those assertions is another passenger telling the hijacker to sit down and shut up.

And yes Keith, unlike Jack Straw, Normal Finkelstein is an "expert" and his testimony qualifies as "expert testimony".


But how typical anyway of Keith to use any tactic he can to silence his political opponents when they provide information which shows he is wrong.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 08:18 AM

Re my last post in support of Jim's denunciation of the US action in withholding UNESCO funds ~~ I had better made clear that this is not to be read as unqualified support for the concept of Palestinian statehood and UN membership, which is a far more problematic issue on which I am thoroughly ambivalent. The older I get, the more I find myself bedevilled and up to a point mentally paralysed by a horrible ability to 'see both sides'of so many questions, of which this-here is an example...

~M~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 08:46 AM

Further to the conversation between Jim and MtheGM


US decision to blackmail UNESCO


It seems that America is happy to be a part of a democratic organization, but only so long as it does what America says.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 08:49 AM

Kevin, taking the starting point as the cease fire, the rockets came before each reprisal strike.
Lox, I am not aware that I am "sticking up for a racist and inaccurate generalization about Palestinians"
I would like you to justify that outrageous slur.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 08:52 AM

But how typical anyway of Keith to use any tactic he can to silence his political opponents

I have never done this either.
Try to justify it Lox.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 09:00 AM

Yes you are keith, I pointed it our earlier - I joined this thread on one single point - Teribus' claim that Palestinians break their agreements and implication that they can't be trusted.

Thats it - plain and simple.

You have taken issue with my rebuttal of this point and are desperately trying to find fault with my rebuttal.

When you have been unable to find a rebuttal, you have expressed skepticism of it.

In other words, you doubt that Teribus is in error.

In other words, you are sticking up for his assertion.


It ain't rocket science and anyone can see it because they have eyes and a brain and they aren't prejudiced against palestinians.

Even Teribus knows better than to stick up for his own assertion, though his silence says that he still wouldn't trust a palestinian ...

... cue list of reasons why palestinians are dishonest etc etc etc

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 09:09 AM

Lox, Dr. F made some points.
There are people of similar calibre taking the opposite view.
That was not the case for my experts.

I am making no claims about Palestinian people.
Are you claiming that no Palestinian organisation has ever broken an agreement?

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 09:23 AM

"That was not the case for my experts."

I didn't notice you referring to 'your' experts ...

"Are you claiming that no Palestinian organisation has ever broken an agreement? "

Why not read my posts and find out.

I don't think anyone could have specifically explained their purpose more clearly than I explained mine in my last post.

You're just spouting hot air now I'm afraid - not even lies ...

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 09:43 AM

"It was not my explanation."
Still no cut-'n-paste - didn't think so.
Forget it Keith - you've dug deep enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 09:47 AM

Seriously, Jim ~~ On this one, why don't you 'forget it'? You don't have to have the very last word, you know ~~ you are not Keith's mother-in-law!

~M~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:09 AM

I have not dug at all Jim.
How many threads have you raised this in now, after the original was closed because of your obsessions?
How many apologies have you made for doing it??
Here is your last one again.

: 21 Oct 11 - 07:12 AM

livelylass
As far as I'm concerned I have said what I have to say on this matter, I see nothing to change my mind and stand by all I have said
As far as I'm concerned - it is finished here and I apologise that it has interrupted this thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:34 AM

Now that the US has indeed made good its threats of severancing monies both to UNESCO and Palestinian state-building projects, wondering how far this story below will go?

No fresh reports as yet, that I could source from a cursory search, so linking to this old Haraaretz article from mid September.

Meanwhile I've no idea whether or not this bill has yet to be passed .. anyone?

U.S. Republicans submit resolution supporting Israel's right to annex West Bank

PS:

"Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MtheGM
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 07:38 AM
Jerusalem Post, lively lass, not Jerusalem Times. I feel strongly about this error because my father spent a year as the paper's News Editor!
~Michael~"

Jerusalem Post, quite so M!
Apologies for the error.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:39 AM

Blast, make that 'Haaretz'

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:45 AM

Ah, further to my comment below in reply to Jim, just noted this recent article in Haaretz.
After UNESCO, Abbas will be approaching sixteen further subsidiary bodies of the UN.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/with-unesco-membership-granted-palestinians-seek-to-join-16-more-un-agencies-1.393

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:48 AM

"Seriously, Jim ~~ On this one, why don't you 'forget it'"
Sorry Mike - and all"
I really am too busy at present to be involved with this, as much as it interests me.
Tried to get on with what I have to do but I was dragged back in by a question aimed directly at me by Keith - should have let sleeping grumps lie.
I really have finished with this side of things - for now.
Sorry once more - it won't happen again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 10:51 AM

How dare you blame me for your deranged obsession interrupting yet another thread!
My question to you was about your comment on the Israeli casualties in the missile attacks, valid and relevant to this thread.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM

And, actually, Keith ~ equally seriously:~ You don't have to have the very last word either, do you? You are no more Jim's mother-in-law than he is yours, eh?

Regards to Keith & Jim

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 11:30 AM

Lox, I force myself to read your posts.

Why not just answer the question?
Are you claiming that no Palestinian organisation has ever broken any agreements?

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:05 PM

Couldn't find the source for my earlier statement that concern has been expressed from within the Obama administration that the severance of funds -and consequently loss of paid-up membership voting rights- to UNESCO and potentially all sixteen fellow UN subsidiary agencies, could promote both increasing alienation of the US from the wider international community, and corresponding diminishment of political influence over same. However, one Professor Julian Cole makes some quite interesting observations on the matter, on his Middle East blog here*:

http://www.juancole.com/2011/11/unesco-palestine-vote-isolates-us-further.html


"Since a law passed by Congress in the 1990s forbids the US from funding UN bodies that recognize Palestine, the Obama administration has no choice but to withdraw the $80 million a year it gives UNESCO, which is a fifth of the agency's budget. But what this step really means is that the US loses influence over UNESCO, and indeed, it might well lose its membership in the organization. UNESCO may have to close some offices and lose employees. Or someone else, such as Saudi Arabia or China, might pick up the $80 million, gaining influence over UNESCO at US expense.

If the move becomes common, the US could end up further and further isolated and helpless. What if the International Atomic Energy Agency recognizes Palestine as a member? If the US cuts it off, it loses a key arena within which it has been pressuring Iran over its nuclear enrichment program. And so on and so forth."


* personally making no claims here as to either this bloggers academic credentials or his stated 'impartiality'

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:12 PM

Starting to make a habit of this sloppy accreditation..

Please note: Prof. JUAN Cole - NOT Julian!

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:14 PM

US influence was ineffective in preventing the recognition.
What is it worth to US.
UNESCO will miss its cash more than US will miss its "influence."

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:28 PM

"Are you claiming that no Palestinian organisation has ever broken any agreements? "

Why I won't answer this question?

Because it has nothing to do with Teribus' assertion that palestinians are untrustworthy.

Unless you are trying to argue that Teribus is right and hoping that an answer to that question will serve as evidence that he is right.

It obviously matters to you to defend the notion that palestinians are untrustworthy.

Why?

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:29 PM

"UNESCO will miss its cash more than US will miss its "influence.""

Perhaps..

Personally my opinion is the US is in a lose lose situation right now and it's huge debts and increasing international alienation, mean it's only a matter of time before it's position as a (or indeed 'the') primary world power is entirely sunk, thus forcing a withdrawal from the world stage.

Arguably, this would only be a good thing for USAians.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:46 PM

l.lass, I agree that is the way it is heading anyway.

Lox, I told you I make no claims about the people of Palestine.
What exactly is your issue with my contribution here?
Please be specific.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 12:49 PM

Lox, refusing to answer a question is an admission of inadequacy.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:11 PM

""Lox, Dr. F made some points.
There are people of similar calibre taking the opposite view.
That was not the case for my experts.""


Since Dr. Finkelstein is Jewish, for that statement to have any credibility at all, "people of similar calibre" would, of necessity, have to include at least one Palestinian supporting Israel's actions.

Do you have that Palestinian up your sleeve Keith?

I thought not.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:26 PM

Israel and the Apartheid Slander

Op-ed from today's New York Times by Richard J. Goldstone, a former justice of the South African Constitutional Court, who led the United Nations fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict of 2008-9.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:27 PM

""Lox, Dr. F made some points.
There are people of similar calibre taking the opposite view.
That was not the case for my experts.""
Since Dr. Finkelstein is Jewish, for that statement to have any credibility at all, "people of similar calibre" would, of necessity, have to include at least one Palestinian supporting Israel's actions.
.,,.

The logic of this statement eludes me ~~ no new phenomenon, mind, re Don's posts.

~M~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:57 PM

"Lox, I told you I make no claims about the people of Palestine.
What exactly is your issue with my contribution here?
Please be specific. "

Are you senile?

I responded to Teribus.

You questioned my response to him.

It turned out you don't have any grounds for questioning my contribution.

Yet we are still talking.

So I should be asking you.

What is your issue with my contribution here?

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:00 PM

The US, by its actions over the UNESCO vote has done itself no favours.

1. By actually supporting Israel's intransigence, it has made it very difficult, if not impossible, for peace talks to proceed.

2. It has removed its capacity to influence UNESCO proceedings for the foreseeable future.

3. It has seriously damaged its pretensions to be the most democratic society on the planet.

4. By all of the above, it has lost any credibility as a champion of democracy world wide.

A great pity and an affront to the founding fathers.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:07 PM

"The democratic conduct of Hamas as you term it extends to summary street executions and waging war on its neighbor Israel in all but name."

You might say the same for Israel and the US which is waging war on Palestine.
Summary street executions? Wasn't that done to bin Laden and Gadafi? What ever happened to the democratic position of habeas corpus where as we did in the Nurenberg Trials, put the criminals up before an international court? Now we just assassinate them.

By summary street executions, Israel is exempted? This is specious.

Hamas was duly elected and this is a democratic process regardless of how they operate today.

The US is no longer capable of being an honest broker to the peace process here.
The UN's decision underscores that point.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:10 PM

""The logic of this statement eludes me ~~ no new phenomenon, mind, re Don's posts.""

No suggestion of the same rapprochment recently offered to Jim then.

If Keith decides that Finkelstein, who is Jewish and opposed to Israel's actions and intransigence, has merely ""made a few points"", but is cancelled out by others' opinions, surely it is not unreasonable to suggest that one of those others would need to be a Palestinian opposing Palestinian attitudes and/or actions.

If that is not the case, just how does Keith's offhand dismissal of an acknowledged expert have any credibility.

Now do you understand?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:28 PM

Don ~ Rapprochement by all means if agreeable to you. I hate being on permanent bad terms with anyone. Despite any poss appearances to contrary I am not a naturally contentious person...!

Re your putative pro-Israeli Palestinian; it would clearly be desirable for the resolution of the situation if one could be produced, and would indeed provide a fine balance to Finkelstein's contribution. But that hardly SFICS makes it an absolute sine-qua-non for Keith's point to which you were responding to have any validity; 'twas therein I found the deficiency in logic.

Best wishes

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:39 PM

I disagree that refusing to answer questions is an admission of anything. I personally do not answer questions on demand. I decide if and when and to whom. mg

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:39 PM

Don, I do not regard the race of the expert as significant.
My point was that experts on both sides of this dispute are ten a penny.
Lox imagines that by finding one anti-Israel "expert" he has ended the debate.
It would not take many minutes to find a pro-Israel "expert"

Lox, I still do not know why you are angry with me.
What have I posted, specifically, that was wrong?

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:41 PM

mg, I think that refusing to answer suggests you have no answer.
I never refuse a question.