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Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC [2011]
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie Date: 06 Oct 12 - 03:56 AM Amazing how discussing whether one person was a monster leads to discussin whether another person still is. The difference I suppose is both used public acceptance of one side of their nature to disguise their aims in other aspects. A difference between buggering kids and buggering their chances. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Martin Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:39 AM Jimmy Savile was a strong supporter and personal friend of Margaret Thatcher. Jimmy Saville actually stayed at Chequers with Thatcher for ELEVEN successive NEW YEARS EVES. Their friendship is well documented. It would appear they have much in common. They both shafted minors in the 1980's. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:43 AM Its a strange business - as I find myself keep repeating. Don raises an interesting point. Why didn't the press latch on to these complaints. They certainly did with Benny Hill's casting couch antics - must have been round about the same time. Why is it only now? Nobody's defending the guy....but why now? |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Martin Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:57 AM Alan, when I refreshed this thread on the 1st October a few leaped on me in Savile's defence, that seems to have abated. Strange that none of those who blew smoke up his arse prior to my post of 1st October returned to comment. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,CS Date: 06 Oct 12 - 05:15 AM Liz Kershaw describes how Savile's predilection for young girls was "an open secret at the BBC" and also of how her own complaints about being groped by a (unnamed) coworker, were dismissed. Evidence is beginning to stack up against the BBC that the corporation knew full well what was going on in alcoves in dressing rooms: http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012-10-06/liz-kershaw-savile-claims-were-open-secret-and-another-dj-groped-me/ "Ms Kershaw, who now works for Radio 6 Music, said that when she joined Radio 1 in 1987 - the year Sir Jimmy left - his behaviour was an "open secret" at the station. "The rumours were there, the jokes were there. It was an open secret," she told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme. "Round Radio 1 everyone joked about Jimmy Savile and young girls. The main jokes were about his adventures on the Radio 1 Roadshow. It was massive then. "There was one presenter who routinely groped me. I would be sitting in the studio with my headphones on, my back to the studio door, live on air, and couldn't hear a thing except what was in my headphones, and then I'd find these wandering hands up my jumper fondling my breasts," she said. "I couldn't say anything, I couldn't even explain because I was broadcasting to the nation. When I complained to somebody they were incredulous and said 'Don't you like it, are you a lesbian?"' |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,CS Date: 06 Oct 12 - 05:35 AM Scanning through yet more allegations this morning. My guess is there will indeed be a number of 'celebrities' still living, who may be forced out of the shadows. This morning a close family member corroborates victims and witnesses allegations: Savile's nephew speaks of being taken to uncle Jimmy's parties at age thirteen: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2213636/Uncle-Jimmy-took-sick-parties-Nephew-tells-childhood-stolen-13.html "Other members of Savile's family spoke out last week to condemn a TV programme alleging the DJ sexually abused teenage girls, but the nephew said many relatives were aware of his sordid past. ... 'At night you would get about 15 or 20 people turning up [at the house where the parties were held}. There would be music and tables full of food, we couldn't believe it. There was everything we needed and we just hung around. 'At first we automatically assumed the children lived there, but we soon realised they didn't. They would be brought there, sometimes by Uncle Jimmy, and would stay for six or seven hours until 3 or 4am. They were just little kids, boys and girls. 'Two or three would go off and come back later. The really strange thing was that they didn't come out the bedrooms kicking and screaming. None of them seemed to be in any distress, but there is no doubt at all in my mind what they were being used for. [...] Guy said he believed he and his friends were there to 'keep the kids happy'. He said: 'I didn't think anything about it at the time, maybe because there was no such thing as paedophiles back then. I never saw Jimmy Savile sexually abuse any of the children, but as far as I am concerned he was part of a paedophile ring at those parties.' [...] 'Although I was not sexually abused I do feel like a victim myself. I think I should have reported him years ago but I was too scared to do it. 'Now I am really pleased everyone knows the truth.' |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 06 Oct 12 - 05:41 AM Fortunately, regarding sexual harassment in the workplace, there is much more scope for complaint and bringing perpetrators to book than there was thirty years ago. And workers are (I believe) more ready to defend themselves forcefully against inappropriate sexual behaviour. But I wonder if a child or young teenager bringing allegations of sexual attack against a popular celebrity would be listened to more readily today? Especially perhaps a wayward teenager who had for example already been in trouble with the law? I have my doubts, sadly. (By the way, the man who did that to me all those years ago, my cousin's husband, was a family doctor! I've often wondered if he did those things to his patients?) |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Martin Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:03 AM The reason he got away with it so long was because his very survival depended on being shrewd. For example, once the police became involved, he became guarded, possibly employing a different approach. Not saying or doing anything that could be later used against him in the event of surveillance or even possibly a cunning "honey trap" being employed to get him to say or do something that would play into the hands of those out to ensnare him, example, "lifting the block". Working together as a group, gathering what some may consider as factual evidence isn't always enough to secure a prosecution. Possibly the visit from the police was an attempt to "put the wind up him". The question remains, did it ? There will never a prosecution, unless someone brings a civil case, which as we all know is outside the financial means of most. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Oct 12 - 01:38 PM As has been pointed out, he will never be convicted and is beyond punishment. If I were a victim of serious abuse, I would be shouting it from the rooftops immediately, not waiting until the only possible revenge fell, not upon the criminal, but on the other, innocent, members of his family. I just hope that this sudden rush of accusers will be made VERY aware that the only people they are affecting never did them any harm at all. I hope they get some satisfaction out of that. Dealing with those who knew and did nothing is a separate issue and I earnestly hope that THEY will pay the price. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:46 PM If I were a victim of serious abuse You are not a frightened young girl who has been forcibly abused and humiliated by a physically and socially powerful man who everyone else regards as a saint. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:03 PM ""If I were a victim of serious abuse You are not a frightened young girl who has been forcibly abused and humiliated by a physically and socially powerful man who everyone else regards as a saint."" Neither are you! So hows about taking the WHOLE of my post and considering what it actually says in context. Try something new, why don't you? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:08 PM Neither on this nor the previous thread have you shown any empathy or expressed any sympathy for the abused kids. Just protected their abusers. Heart of stone Don. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:14 PM Of course I sympathise with the victims and have said so. Do YOU understand what I said about the effect on innocent members of his family? NO! Heart of stone Keith? Or do you see a gain from this in terms of punishing a man who is too dead to give a shit? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:56 PM Liz Kershaw is reported at more length in another story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19856081 Ms Kershaw, 54, who joined Radio 1 in 1987, said the station had changed out of all recognition since the 1980s. [...] The main jokes were about his adventures on the Radio 1 Roadshow. It was massive then. "It was rather like the X Factor going round the country then. Can you imagine the X Factor judges rounding up the contestants and asking for sexual favours after the show? I don't think so," she added. You know what? I do think so. Shows like The X Factor are not one bit less sleazy and riddled with institutional creeps playing power games than TV was in Savile's day. Of course some of them are abusing their position. 15 years is nowhere near long enough for the sort of cultural change Kershaw says has happened - not without a couple of layers of management being taken out and shot, anyway. She's talking like a Catholic church bureaucrat on a damage limitation exercise. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Oct 12 - 07:07 PM Innocent members of his family are innocent. The shame is all his. Did you read his nephew's account of his experiences as a child at parties for children and men? Did you know that at least one poor kid, a 15 year old, topped herself because of what he did to her? It was all found in her diary. If only she had been strong like you, she would have shouted her disgrace from the rooftops, but she was just a frightened kid. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Oct 12 - 07:18 PM Of course I sympathise with the victims and have said so. You have not Don. Not once. Heart of stone. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 07 Oct 12 - 03:17 AM '...shouted his disgrace from the rooftops...' . My unpleasant experience left me for some reason ashamed and as if I myself were to blame. The very last thing I'd have done would have been to tell anyone. The man was a GP, and always welcomed us to my cousin's house congenially. My parents liked him a lot and were proud their niece had married a doctor. It would have been dreadful if I'd maintained he'd touched me in that way. I'd have probably been punished severely for 'imagining' such a thing. It would have been catastrophic, I was only twelve. Now of course. if anyone took liberties, I'd break their neck. (I weigh quite a bit.) |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: theleveller Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:37 AM You really don't get it do you, Don? The victims were often embarrassed and ashamed and also afraid that they wouldn't be believed becasue Savile was such a pillar of the community. Seems pretty obvious to me - and probably to anyone with an iota of imagination who isn't just being stubborn to prove a point. Mother-in-law was talking yesterday about the time he abused her and was wondering, after over 60 years, whether she ought to say something so that people would realise he was a predator right back in the late forties, early fifties. Why didn't she speak out at the time? Well, she was very naive and innocnet, her father had died and she didn't get on with her mother, so it wasn't until a couple of years later that she confided in my father-in-law. She has lived with this for over 6 decades but now says that she feels his exposure has had a cathartic effect. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,CS Date: 07 Oct 12 - 05:18 AM Those coming forward claiming to have been abused by Savile, now verging on one hundred. A further witness reported Savile to police in 2004, accusing him of taking child sex holidays in Goa. Again, this was reported at the time, and yet again there was supposedly "not enough evidence" to proceed. "Many were aged nine and 10 when they claim the TV favourite molested them at the height of his fame. Savile, who died last year at 84, is even alleged to have abused girls into his 70s. We can reveal a British man told Scotland Yard in 2004 he was making trips to Goa in India to have sex with children. The witnesss said Savile went to villages to pick up girls. But police said they needed more evidence." http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/jimmy-savile-almost-100-victims-make-1365264 |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:08 AM Yes I see a gain , Don. Its like those museums to the holocaust. We see the depths humanity will sink to. We are on the lookout, and suspect the motives of the next baddie that comes along. Its a negative sort of thing, but its a gain - of a sort. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,CS Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:13 AM Charities associated to Savile are speaking of making donations to organisations that work with and support child abuse victims. I'm heartened to see this response. I also suspect that the high profile nature of this story will encourage many more (not just those assaulted by Savile) to seek the help of such organisations. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 07 Oct 12 - 12:43 PM And what about the flamboyant and effusive monument to the man where, I believe, he is buried? I heard it has already been vandalised. Do people think it should be removed or replaced with something more low-key? Difficult to know what to do with it. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Oct 12 - 02:04 PM
Keith, if someone says they sympathize, then for you to come back and say they don't is not only silly, it is pointlessly argumentative. You keep so many arguments going because you won't listen to what people tell you. This guy sounds like a creep. But he's a dead creep. It might have been better to describe the allegations against him in a separate thread, but that didn't happen. Give it a rest. SRS |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: theleveller Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:17 PM "It might have been better to describe the allegations against him in a separate thread," Why? |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:32 PM Well this one is rather long - and having as an Obit doesn't seem particularly appropriate. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Oct 12 - 02:57 AM Sage, I could not say if he sympathises or not, but he said that he had expressed that sympathy, and I said that he had not. He had said that Savile's abuse of young girls should be kept quiet until he was convicted, i.e. never, and he had expressed sympathy for Savile's family, but for the victims, nothing. (just like last time) |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,CS Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:31 AM "Well this one is rather long - and having as an Obit doesn't seem particularly appropriate." Obituaries are for information about the deceased's life, as such this aspect of Savile's life is as 'appropriate' for discussion here as any of the other things he was previously famous for. Joe has also stated earlier on this thread that he is OK with Obit's on MC carrying discussions about the more unsavoury aspects of the deceased's life also. I'm sure he would have - and still could - separated the thread if he felt it were required. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Musket Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:58 AM Generally speaking, and many newspaper editors would agree; one of the advantages of an obituary being after someone has died is that it lowers the risk of being sued for what you say. An obituary is not an eulogy but, as CS says, information about their life. Nobody ever said any obituary had to be balanced, sound in evidence or positive. At this stage, there are serious allegations and if he were alive, our judicial system of prefacing everything with "alleged" would hold true. As he cannot be taken to court, it will be difficult to get a fact "beyond all possible doubt" but in any event, the account of many people cannot be ignored. There are however, many others still alive whom he shared his time with, and perhaps waiting for the sword of Damocles to fall their way. Anyway, it's been a while since Gary Glitter was in prison last... |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,CS Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:08 AM The Beeb has caved and finally agreed - under mounting pressure, including from Cameron - to hold an internal inquiry. I wonder if this will be in any way useful, or as they previously stated, will it merely serve as a hinderance to the police investigation? |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:10 AM It isn't the 'Obit' part of the thread title which doen't seem to fit, it's the RIP! |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Jack Campin Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:04 AM Changing just one letter in the thread title would do it. Odd that "Rot In Hell" never gets an acronym. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:11 AM RIP Rest in Purgatory ? hmmm.. notice the last 2 syllables of 'Purgatory'.. that's interesting... |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:14 AM The story has moved on. He is now seen to be just among the worst of many. There was (is?) a culture in the entertainment industry where successful male performers regarded all females as available. Only a minority succumbed to this cultural pressure, but a significant minority did. Those who should have protected the victims failed to act or even investigate complaints, because of who the offenders were. No wonder it was twice likened to the Northern trafficking cases by "radical socialist" Mark Sawatka on the last R4 Any Questions. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n1vwk 29 minutes in. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:06 AM RIP Repulsive Irredeemable Pedophile |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,CS Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:25 AM Rot in Purgatory - which is apparently, for those interested in trivia, a Batman episode. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,CS Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM "There was (is?) a culture in the entertainment industry where successful male performers regarded all females as available." A culture of misogyny certainly prevailed within a number of industries - most no doubt - up until the recent past. And no doubt does so to a somewhat lesser extent today. However, I think a culture of both sexism and related agism exclusively towards women are today still probably more prevalent within the entertainment industry/ies than in many others which have moved on. One only has to watch prime time TV (which admittedly I don't anymore) with a clear eye, to see it. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:41 AM Guest Martin - What do you mean by Strange that none of those who blew smoke up his arse prior to my post of 1st October returned to comment. ? If by 'blew smoke up his arse' you mean praised him in some way then you are wrong. I praised him - Second post on the thread I think. That was before I was aware of the allegation against him. I have posted since with my views that he does seem guilty but only the media seem to be benefiting. I will certainly not praise him any more but your choice of phrase does leave a lot to be desired. I also like Runrig, Jethro Tull, Ashley Hutchins and John Tamms. I would certainly not choose to orally introduce any tobacco by-products to their nether regions... DtG |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,CS Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:51 AM Unfair to be critical of those who praised his work prior to these allegations coming to light. No-body bar the victims (and it would seem those who moved in celebrity circles) knew anything unsavoury about Savile during his lifetime. I certainly didn't. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:21 PM Obviously even the Queen was impressed by the man, since she knighted him. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:36 PM That is not her decision. We are a constitutional monarchy. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:40 PM I should also say that women tend to be more available to men who are notable successes, and that such men often assume that women will be available. Otherwise, to CS, yes, it is still the case that women are judged to a large extent on the sexiness of their appearance. Some founder feminists were well (I think) aware of this and are reported to have gained large amounts of weight specifically to add gravitas to their presence. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Dave Hanson Date: 08 Oct 12 - 02:55 PM You are wrong CS he wasa reportd to the police on several occaisions, so people did know. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Backwoodsman Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:12 PM Dave, I think Eliza probably meant those who have praised JS on this thread, ('blown smoke up his arse', to quote Guest Martin's delightful turn of phrase) who were unaware of his apparent behaviour. I certainly had no idea about any of the stuff he's reputed to have got up to, and there's no reason why, in view of the conspiracy of silence which seems to have been conducted by his peers, anyone outside 'Show-Biz' should or would have known. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:36 PM An "obit" is normally what we get at the time of death. If something unsavoury comes to light well after someone has been dead and buried or burned (as quite frequenty happens), and we wish to discuss it, I think normally the convention would be to start up a new thread, rather than to revive an old "obit" thread. ............................. The suggestion that people who posted to the obit thread saying stuff about Jimmy Saville, echoing the favourable image that the media had presented, ought to be criticised at this time is just nasty - in fact I'd say it reflects what can fairly be described as a witch-hunting mentality. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: GUEST,CS Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:37 PM You are wrong CS he wasa reportd to the police on several occaisions, so people did know. Dave H Agreed, those who knew included a select group. Both those who moved in celebrity circles, and those police to whom his activities were reported to. About six complaints to police now, I believe, that we are aware of? I'm unsure how many were made during Savile's lifetime. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Backwoodsman Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM Sorry Dave, I was referring to CS's post, nothing to do with Eliza. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:13 PM he wasa reportd to the police on several occaisions, so people did know. I am a people and I didn't know. Or do Gnomes not count as people? That's how it started in Nazi Germany you know... DtG And now I claim Goodwins law! |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Oct 12 - 01:18 AM The obit thread was revived by a Guest. Guests can not start new threads, only revive old ones. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Oct 12 - 01:55 AM DtG ~ Godwin's, actually. |
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Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey From: Dave Hanson Date: 09 Oct 12 - 03:24 AM Dave, if you really are a gnome, then no you do not count as a person, this is not to say your observations are invalid or not welcome, they are. Dave H |
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