BS: Stolen Greek art

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: gnu
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM

Kendall... "Here in Maine a few years ago we were forced to pay the Indians for the land our ancestors took from them. I say "Fair enough."

Oh dear. A whole new thread. But, rather than start a new thread, and an arguement that some will never discuss rationally, I'll just say, ya can't take land from someone who has never set foot on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:18 PM

"Driot de suite" (the right of an artist or to an extent descendants to participate in increased prices on resale of original art) is favoured by the Eurocentric international conventions and pretty well universal in Europe, but is not perpetual. The normal duration is life + 70. Australia has it too.

I believe it has been implemented in California and I think there is talk about New York coming into line although it was defeated there once.

http://www.artinfo.com/news/story/38274/what-would-importing-droit-de-suite-to-the-us-mean-for-the-art-market/

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 11:28 AM

Thank you for that information An Buachaill Caol Dubh.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 10:23 AM

During the spring break I took the resident teenager to Dublin, first to the National Museum of Ireland where we saw, among other things, the display of Irish high crosses and later we saw the treasures of the Tutankhamun in the RDS.

Visually it was all stunning, the knowledge everything we had seen were replicas left a nagging feeling of dissatisfaction. Strange how that works isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 10:02 AM

Elgin sold the Marbles to the British Museum round about the time of Waterloo (1815 - about fifteen years after they were brought to Britain). He received about half of what they had cost him; £35,000 or so as against about £70,000. With regard to the issue of his original intentions, I think it was only when he saw the kind of destruction that has been mentioned already, and indeed compared what was then present on the Acropolis with what had been there, and described by several visitors from England, only half a century before, that he entered into discussions with a view to buying those "pieces of sculpture which could be removed". Prior to that, he had had numerous plaster casts made under the direction of an Italian called Lusieri. These casts are still in the BM (or were until about twenty years ago; I'm not sure, now). Comparison of some of those that were made back in 1799/1800 with the originals left in place (i.e., on the Parthenon) show the remarkable deterioration of those originals; not just another two centuries' worth of wind and weather, but the effects of recent atmospheric pollution.   So, in effect, Elgin's "last poor plunder from a bleeding land" did preserve the marbles. If truly convincing copies can be made, and placed either on the remains of the temple, or perhaps even on a replica, that would satisfy visual requirements. Ah, but then there's the issue of value, isn't there?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 07:39 AM

Another opinion.Same validity as all the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:41 AM

Did Lord Elgin sell the "Marbles" on? I don't think so I beleive he donated them.

As the "Marbles" are not complete, perhaps Kendall and the Greeks can tell us where the rest of them are. Oh no, of course they can't because the Greeks along with the Turks at the time Lord Elgin bought his were ripping them from the facade and had been doing so for some time. Were they preserving them? No, they were rendering the marble down to make?   -   WHITEWASH.

The Greeks have no legal or moral right to the Elgin Marbles.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:40 AM

Sitll can't see what this drift - about recent contemporary art & its comparative success/failure & its copyright issues - has to do about the topic of this thread ~~ see mine of yesterday 1051 am.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:25 AM

Nigel, Consider the case of van Gogh. His work was worth nothing in his lifetime. People were not quite ready to appreciate him. Now it goes for upward of $100,000,000. Or Picasso, who had a group of good marketers. Or Andy Warhol, who in my opinion was the Emperor with no Clothes. The quality does not necessarily go in but an awful lot of people buy art on speculation rather than because they really appreciate it other than in the financial sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 11:23 PM

There was quite a scandal in 2005 about a curator from the Getty Museum in Los Angeles, charged in Rome with receiving stolen artifacts.
The Getty has a wonderful collection of antiquities, and I'm glad I was able to see it - but ownership of many of the items in the collection is clouded, at best. The building where the antiquities are housed is a replica of a villa from Pompeii, built in a canyon in Malibu. Most stunning museum display I've ever seen. Second to that in my experience is the tomb of Phillip II in Macedonia - which goes to show ya that the Greeks do have the ability to preserve and display artifacts.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 10:51 AM

The sort of copyright discussed in several of the last few threads expires somewhere [according to local usages and regulations] between 50 & 70+ years of their creator's death. I somehow have a feeling that the actual © of ~ Phidias, wasn't it? ~ will have expired by now ~~ or even by the 2nd decade of C19...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 10:14 AM

As one who has been the agent for a major marine artist, he and I would both be a lot happier if he had been able to profit from subsequent sales of his work. As it is, the artist's rights to the physical art itself end when the work is sold, either by him or by his agent. In this case, the physical owner of the art was the Turkish government.      


Why should the artist get a 'cut' from future sales. Presumably when he (or his agent) first sold the art they were happy with the price they received.
If the original purchaser has to sell at a loss (because his investment was not a wise one) will the artist underwrite part of the mark-down?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 09:56 AM

hey,Y'all- think you'd find this germaine.

Give this a read: Waxman, Sharon: LOOT - The Battle Over The Stolen Treasures Of The Ancient World.. New York, Henry Holt & Co, 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 09:41 AM

Semantics is afoot here; Elgin may have paid for the stuff but the Greeks didn't get the money.

As one who has been the agent for a major marine artist, he and I would both be a lot happier if he had been able to profit from subsequent sales of his work. As it is, the artist's rights to the physical art itself end when the work is sold, either by him or by his agent. In this case, the physical owner of the art was the Turkish government.      

On the other hand, his rights to reproduction of the image fall under current copyright law. The work cannot be reproduced without a license from the artist, for which he or she must be paid.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 04:13 AM

OK Kendall.

I apologise for my 'Idiot' remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 09:28 PM

Well, Kendall, despite that nastiness from some in the thread, it has been a very interesting discussion. I would like to have seen the Elgin Marbles in place on the Parthenon, but they probably would have crumbled to dust by now.
I did see them in the British Museum a few years later, and they were very nicely displayed.

So, who's right? Who knows?

Maybe there is no right answer in this discussion.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 08:36 PM

I stand corrected and chastised. Everything is relative; to a germ, good health is a type of disease.

Meghan, would you really do that for me? Ohhhh.oooooooH! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 06:52 PM

Thank you, sir. Much better! :)

Lord Elgin bought the pieces from the Turks who took them from Greece and sold them. Anyone believe that was right?

Again, I must take a small issue here. The Turks didn't "take them from"; the Turks, for better or worse, ruled Greece at that time (and had done for over 300 years). Lord Elgin bought from the then legitimate rulers. Thus, the Marbles were preserved.

I don't like arguments about history. People then behaved as they saw fit then. We, now, behave as we see fit now. I think there is no value, no point, no purpose, in judging their times by ours'. When people start demanding apologies for acts of 200 years ago, I get annoyed. They did what they thought was right. If the world has changed in the meanwhile... How are we now responsible for what they did, that we should have to apologise for acts that were not ours'? Surely, those acts all that time ago were part of the process that produced we that are now; that have a different view of the world which means that we would not do those things? And how would we be us now if they had not been them then?

So, the Marbles... Greece & the UK have claims to them. Whose is stronger? The UK bought them legitimately, as they believed at the time. Against that, Greece claims them as theirs because they made them. But what is the causal link between the people that lived in Athens (a city state; not a nation) and caused them to be, and the modern Greek state that wants them back?

As for "moral" arguments, if you don't moralise over me, I promise I won't moralise over you... And ethics is only the same word in different clothes! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:27 PM

Ah noo Kendall ma loon thons a wise decision heck beuy ahm no English and ah wis near on the point o pittin ye ower ma knee and skelpin yer chours and verse till yer lugs rang

(Translations will be supplied on the completion af an application form and a £10 note ) :)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:28 PM

I retract the word stolen. The people of the UK did not steal anything. It was a poor choice of words. Both the UK and the USA are in possession of things to which they have no moral right.

I was watching a TV program on the Greek marbles and I simply wondered what the crew here thinks of what was said.

Lord Elgin bought the pieces from the Turks who took them from Greece and sold them. Anyone believe that was right?

I was not looking for a punch up, I was asking for opinions and they way I put it twisted some tails. Including my English wife's!

As I said, "If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp." In this case, a couple of them threw them back! OUCH!

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:39 PM

Gentlemen, all I did was ask a question and request opinions, and what did I get? broadsides! Called an idiot.

No you didn't, kendall. All you did was ask a loaded question, make statements that reveal your bias, and fail to acknowledge any of the points against you, except by restating your already debunked arguments.

You did not try to start a debate; you tried to start an argument, and now you're wondering why people are calling you names? I don't agree that people should be calling you names (Silas - hush! ;-) ), although I do agree that you are, like the rest of us, a congenital idio... *ahem* I mean, human being... ;-)

If you wanted to start a debate, you should have left out "stolen", "grave robber", and so on. They're not debating points, they're caltrops - deliberately spiky & asking to be trodden on. I don't dispute that the notion that the Marbles belong in Greece is valid, even if I don't agree with it; however, your reasoning, as presented, is invalid, and your presentation of the opinion has been execrable.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:16 PM

Kendall,

Why are you picking a fight here? You know that calling the people of the UK thieves would inspire an angry reaction. Could you not have stated your opinion in a less argumentative and confrontational way?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 01:21 PM

Ahhh, so we admit that these 'acts' were commited in the USA?

Anyone in jail for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 12:37 PM

Let's face it folks, both the UK and the USA have done their share of helping themselves to what belonged to others.
Splitting hairs to justify what we have done does not make what we did right.
We Yanks learned arrogance from the masters.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: GUEST,Eb
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:57 AM

In Alaska, as all across the nation, many artifacts have had to be returned to their original owners, usually tribal entities. Masks, ceremonial shakers, carvings and much more had been acquired by various means such as expropriation, raids, thefts and purchase. In many cases, the courts ruled that the person surrendering it had no right to do so.

It's a fine line- for instance, some people, mostly white, have rescued totem poles and re-erected them elsewhere. Those poles still stand today, repaired and restored as needed.

However, the tribal culture that created them meant for them to be returned to the earth in due course through the medium of decay.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:02 AM

"Gentlemen, all I did was ask a question and request opinions, and what did I get? broadsides!"

What you actually said was; "they were stolen, and in spite of requests by the Greek government to have them returned to Greece, the British government refuses to return them. Tell me, why shouldn't England be charged with receiving stolen property?" and every time anyone pointed out the bleedin' obvious, you ignored them.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 09:13 AM

QED

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 09:09 AM

Silas, your opinion of me is none of my business.It carries no more weight than my opinion of you.

That statement about the cars,as I said, if an opinion is stated as fact then that can be argued, especially if it can be proven wrong.

Gentlemen, all I did was ask a question and request opinions, and what did I get? broadsides! Called an idiot.

Old saying, "If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp."

Don't you just love Mudcat? everyone is so civilized and friendly. Never a harsh word...:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:45 AM

I would install copies on the Parthenon and keep the originals in a museum
... as they have done with the caryatids from the Erechtheion, which are in the museum on-site.   But, if I remember correctly, it is not free, unlike the British Museum.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Bert
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:21 AM

While I don't agree that the marbles were stolen (The case for Manhatten Island could be debated though), I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be returned now.

Such good copies are relatively cheap to make nowadays that it wouldn't really matter much who retained the originals.

We, and the Greeks can thank Lord Elgin for rescuing them.

Personally, I would install copies on the Parthenon and keep the originals in a museum.

Here's my pic of the building

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:16 AM

Elgin saved the marbles from destruction. He did not just save them 'for the nation' he saved them for the world, if it wasn't for him they would not exist and the whole argument would be specious anyway.

Kendall thinks that it would have been better for the marbles to have stayed in Greece and been completely destroyed - anyone agree with him? Anyone?

The Marbles have been immaculatly cared for and are FREE display to anyone, that is ANYONE who wants to see them.

The more of Kendalls posts that I read the more I think him a congenital idiot. (Mind you, that is just my opinion)

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 03:27 AM

It remains a total fallacy that all opinions are equal.

An opinion might be "car A is faster than car B". If you time them and car B is faster, the opinion was wrong. There is no getting round it.

Elgin bought the marbles from their rightful owner at the time. There was no fraud, no coercion, no trickery. There is no valid challenge to that view and indeed no challenge has even been advanced.

The "opinion" that the marbles are stolen property is, quite simply, untenable.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 09:12 PM

It's an amazing thing to visit the Acropolis. It's something I dreamed of since I was 17 years old, taking high school Greek. I was in my early 50s when I finally got there, and it was wonderful. I admit that it was a disappointment to see the Parthenon and almost all the buildings on the Acropolis missing all ornamentation. However, if Elgin had left those marbles, would they still be there now? Seems to me that even today, Greece does not have an economy stable enough to afford to give those artifacts the protection they need.

Take a look at this photograph of a painting of an artist's conception of the Acropolis. Yes, it's a disappointment that the Acropolis doesn't look like that now, but at least the marbles have been preserved and are available for people to see in London - I saw them there. So many places in Greece, the artifacts were stolen and are in the hands of private collectors and not available for anyone to see. In Rhodes, there is nothing left of the Colossus, although it remained for centuries after it toppled.

Yes, it's true that such artifacts would have been preserved differently in the current age, but they met a pretty good fate when Elgin collected them in the 19th century. No, they may not be in Greece - but they are in a public institution where the public can see them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:31 PM

People have a way of justifying anything that suits them.
Reminds me of my ex wife; she decided what was right by a simple formula, If she wanted it, it was right. If not, it was wrong.
Human nature.

I asked for opinions and I got them; I also stated mine. You know what I say about opinions, they are like assholes, everybody has one, and one is as good as another.

Yes, yes, yes! Exactly right!! And if you can't see how that argument can be turned 180 degrees right back on to you... Because it can. So it's no argument at all.

You're determined to justify what suits you. Further, you're the one that started this thread. So your 'ethical' question wasn't. It was actually just an excuse to get on a soap box & bang the drum you seem to be interested in. If the many counter arguments that you've received make no impression on you, does that that mean that we're all ignoramuses, or that you're narrow-minded to the point of being blinkered?

However, there is a moral case for their return, as the Greek nation was the loser.

I have to disagree, Don, sorry. As I & several others have pointed out, the Greek nation didn't exist at the time the Marbles were purchased, and later might never have had the chance to moan about our purchase had we not done so then.

P.S. Thanks to MGM for setting me straight on codiquette.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:30 PM

Richard, you just proved my point that arrogance is a factor here.
One may argue with statements put forth as fact if we know better, but opinions are just that and they are personal. You may have a different opinion but you have no right to piss on another's opinion.

Anyway, I was just curious as what the crew thinks of the subject. Legally, the museum has a claim to the goods, morally they should return them.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:37 PM

Elgin, in good faith, paid the value of the marbles to the administration in power at the time, which was Ottoman (Turkish).

Therefore, he was legally the owner of those purchased goods, and free to dispose of them as he saw fit.

However, there is a moral case for their return, as the Greek nation was the loser.

Speaking pragmatically, the British Museum as legal owners are under no obligation to return the marbles, but a moral argument might be made for offering the Greek government the monetary value, which in present circumstances might be more beneficial than a museum exhibit in Athens.

There is a parallel here with the sale of works by important British artists to foreign (often American) collectors and museums. Today, the only way to prevent this is by raising the cash to outbid them. Why should it have been any different in Nineteenth or early twentieth century Greece.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:24 PM

Come on Kendall.

If some rich person told you that rich people getting richer would trickle down to you, would that be a valid opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:12 PM

With respect, one that is rational is usually better than one that is irrational.

Your argument is used by the proponents of "intelligent design" to have it taught as science (which it is not) in schools.

It is a total fallacy that all opinions are equal. Some are stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:59 PM

People have a way of justifying anything that suits them.
Reminds me of my ex wife; she decided what was right by a simple formula, If she wanted it, it was right. If not, it was wrong.
Human nature.

I asked for opinions and I got them; I also stated mine. You know what I say about opinions, they are like assholes, everybody has one, and one is as good as another.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:52 PM

It's incredibly simple. Could the Ottoman regime pass good title?

Answer "yes".

Did they?

Answer "yes".

End of argument.

Morally and artistically it is also a good thing - look at what was happening and threatens again to happen.


There are other cases in which the question of acquisition of good title is not so simple - but in this case there is only one answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM

made in Greece by Greeks is an argument?

Does that mean that we have to send all our clothes back to China?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:31 PM

Thank You, bobad, that sums it all up perfectly.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: bobad
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:26 PM

From Wikipedia:

"There is strong opposition among national museums to the repatriation of objects of international cultural significance such as the Rosetta Stone. In response to repeated Greek requests for return of the Elgin Marbles and similar requests to other museums around the world, in 2002, over 30 of the world's leading museums — including the British Museum, the Louvre, the Pergamon Museum in Berlin and the Metropolitan Museum in New York City — issued a joint statement declaring that "objects acquired in earlier times must be viewed in the light of different sensitivities and values reflective of that earlier era" and that "museums serve not just the citizens of one nation but the people of every nation".[78]"

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:47 PM

Tell you what kendall, you as, an American, look after your own culture (he said with a straight face) and leave the British to look after theirs. Simple eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:27 PM

OK.

What is it about the Elgin Marbles particularly that bothers you over and above any other artwork that is held in a museum in any country other than the one it was created in? The British Museum has many much more interesting things than the Elgin Marbles.

The British Museum BTW has the original Rosetta Stone.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:18 PM

Your argument is so full of holes you could make a sting vest out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:17 PM

Let's stick to the subject. Nigel, the paintings on the ceiling of the chapel didn't go anywhere!
The subject only becomes daft when it is covered with red herrings!

Here in Maine a few years ago we were forced to pay the Indians for the land our ancestors took from them. I say "Fair enough."

You guys, your belief seems to be "We stole it fair and square" so it's ours now.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Silas
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:10 PM

Listen Kendall. How about we return the Elgin marbles back to greece when you return all of your stolen/purchased european art, paintings and sculptures that languish in your museums back to the countries they were created in.

What a daft argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:34 AM

I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Stolen Greek art
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 10:55 AM

All those red herrings aside, the sculptures were created in Greece by Greeks, not the Turks or Lord Elgin
Another red herring.
The painting on the Cistene Chapel was created by Michaelangelo. That doesn't mean he retains ownership.
At the time Elgin obtained the marbles he bought them from the (then) owners.
If property always reverts to the creator, or to the original owner (commissioner) There would be no trade in works of art, as no subsequent owner could obtain a valid title.

The Marbles were bought and paid for by Elgin. He then donated then to the British Museum.