BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers

Subject: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 11:54 AM

"Face the Facts - Deserters Deserted" will be on BBC Radio 4 at 12.30GMT on Wednesday 4 January 2012 and will be available to listen to afterwards online. This programme concerns Irish soldiers who deserted their own (neutral) army to fight with the British against German forces and were brutally punished on return.
Story here.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 12:38 PM

"Starvation order" !

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 09:32 AM

Thank-you for posting and interesting and important story Michael.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 09:44 AM

Very interesting.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 10:19 AM

And what home coming would you expect them to get ? The British who fought for Germany during World War Two came home to the same reception, as did the French.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 10:38 AM

[quote]
The British who fought for Germany during World War Two came home to the same reception, as did the French.
[/quote]
So you are saying that Ireland was a fascist state?

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 10:42 AM

No Peter, I am not saying that. My mother was from Galway, I served in the British army. I recall when my grandmother died, I was serving in Coalisland County Tyrone and was not allowed to attend her funeral in Galway for fear of an attack.

I am not surprised these Irishmen were shunned on their return, one thing about the Irish, they have long memories of our role in Ireland. A group of British Great War veterans (Black and Tans) ran amuck in Ireland less than twenty years earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 12:40 PM

"I see the fear in him even today, even after 65 years."
Phil Farrington wouldn't be any use to either army I would have thought with that sort of an attitude.

Seriously, they are desperate to get a new generation of Irish to fight their wars for them .That's what all this is about .

It should be borne in mind that Irish deserters from the Irish army during WW2 fared better than the Irish deserters from the British army in the previous world war .

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/books/part-one-the-truth-behind-the-irish-soldiers-shot-at-dawn-13488027.html

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 12:41 PM

Sorry the last post(!)was from me.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 01:17 PM

My father was in London during WW11, working as a foreman on the docks where they were building the invasion barges for the Normandy landings. A deserter from the Irish army who had signed up for the British army got work on the site in the furlough period he was allowed before joining up with his regiment. My father recalled that the soldier -a father of eight children- was the fittest man on the job and one of the best workers he had ever come across.

Dad thought that this man was a conscript and told him that he would be able to help him obtain false cards so that he could carry on working , but the soldier insisted that he had signed up voluntarily and that nothing would stop him going off to kill as many Germans as he possibly could "to avenge the death of my brother". His brother had been killed at Dunkirk a few years before.

The soldier sailed over to Normandy on one of the same concrete barges that he had been building. They got the word back that he had been the very first man to alight when the barge reached Normandy and that the moment he stepped into the water he was shot though the head.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 01:35 PM

They are referred to as the Irish Defence Forces, not the Irish army.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 02:59 PM

It should be borne in mind that Irish deserters from the Irish army during WW2 fared better than the Irish deserters from the British army in the previous world war .

Are you saying that Irish deserters were treated differently to British deserters in WW1?
British deserters were usually shot!

Why do you state "Phil Farrington wouldn't be any use to either army"
Do you have evidence he did not fight bravely against the Nazis?
It was brave of him to leave the safety of Ireland to fight against that scourge.

And, what IS this about?
Seriously, they are desperate to get a new generation of Irish to fight their wars for them .That's what all this is about .

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 03:22 PM

Not all employers had the same attitude - why do you think Guinness "gatemen" (security staff at entry points) were so tall? ;>)>

"brutally punished", incidentally, is emotive hyperbole, IMHO.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 04:12 PM

You're right about them shooting deserters in WWi whether they were Irish or not Keith. I thought that Mr Farrington seemed a very timid sort judging by what they said on the BBC about him living in fear for sixty five years , polishing his gallantry medals in the dark and all that!

One my uncles was working in the north of England at the outbreak of WW2 . He was called up and tried every trick in the book to get out ,but they wouldn't let him leave.On parade he used to pretend that he was stupid -which he wasn't - and couldn't understand the orders when the sergeant was bawling them out .He kept marching when ordered to halt and stuff like that. "What do they say in Ireland when they want you to stop?" the sergeant asked him in exasperation . "Woaaah" said my uncle , (like you'd say to a donkey). The next time they were on drill parade the sergeant shouted to the squad " Halt! and you , you Irish bastard Woaaah!

Uncle Mike deserted as soon as he got his furlough and returned to Mayo. He was a windy type and never returned to England .Like Mr Farringdon he was constantly afraid of getting arrested for desertion.

The BBC report says that the bould Mr Farringdon joined the British army to fight the nazis , but how true that is who can really say ? Like the deserter I mentioned who got shot at the Normandy landing he could have had other motives.

Thanks for the correction on the point about the Irish Defence Force.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 04:13 PM

Sorry again that was me again

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 04:25 PM

The vast bulk of the 300 plus or so from the British and Commonwealth forces who were shot for desertion etc in WWI were of course British. The Irish weren't signalled out for special treatment or anything. In fact if anything it was the other way about. The Irish were volunteers as Ireland was the only part of the UK where the UK govt didn't enforce conscription. Correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't just the 5000 or so Irish Army deserters in WWII who were stigmatised (though I suppose they got by far the worse of it) but the far more numerous men who simply signed up to fight the Nazis were hardly welcomed home with open arms. Surely many of these men would have seen themselves as fighting for Ireland as well as Britain? The idea that the Nazis would have respected Irish neutrality had Britain fallen seems a tad naieve. Don't know how much truth is in it but I read once that the US was furious at the Irish govt's neutrality once the US itself was in the war and suggested to Churchill that the ports etc should occupied. He supposedly retorted something like "they aren't neutral - just sulking!"

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 04:28 PM

Canadians fought bravely in the Great War but were subject to the military laws of Britain, and some poor shell shocked devils faced the firing squad. Australia refused this barbarity and threatened to return its soldiers home if Britain dared to force this hideous policy on them!

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 07:46 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018gylq

This prog today dealt with the issue, with an interview with an Irish MP.
He said that deserters who just became criminals were not persecuted as were those who went to fight the Nazi Axis and Japan.
Also interviewed were people who suffered great hardship and malnutrition as children because of the "starvation orders."

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 08:03 AM

Regarding the "starvation orders." don't forget that also happened in 1845, then it was called a famine and I am sorry to say, we as a nation must accept our part in it with shame.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 10:17 AM

"don't forget that also happened in 1845," How many wrongs does it take to make a right? The Irish people who took up arms against the Nazis in WWII were in no way responsible for the incompetence of a UK govt a century earlier. You should only suffer because of your own actions or wrong doings not because of someone else's.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 01:42 PM

My understanding is the "desertion" was from the Irish army to join the British army. Some of the comments here seem to be about deserters who fled the fighting, not those who fled to fight.

Or am I wrong?

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 05:08 PM

I know my father never saw any conflict between fighting for the Irish Republic in the 1920s and fighting in the British Army against the Nazis. In fact he saw it as essentially the same struggle - "I always stood up for the rights of small nations - even my own."

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 05:34 AM

"Or am I wrong?" No you are absolutely right Bob. The thread was originally about how the Irish govt (who were officially neutral in WWII)treated Irishmen who left their own forces to go and fight the Nazis. Some people just like to bring things the British govt have done into the thread which kind of sidesteps the origignal topic.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 06:35 AM

All I am saying is, It would be unlikely that those who left the ranks of the Irish defence forces to fight within the ranks of the British army would be treated any other way considering the British role in Ireland for 800 years. My mother's family from Galway hated me because I was in the British army and that was 1960's and 70's. The British who fought for Nazi Germany would have came home to the same welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 09:32 AM

Strangely enough my Dad served in the same outfit as this bloke who has been living in fear. The Guards Armoured Division of the Irish Guards.

Dad would never really talk much about it. But apparently the killing grounds were just that - wholesale slaughter going on everywhere. They arrived a couple of days after D day, and were straight into the thick of it.

One thing my Dad DID say was one night we had been keeping company with a bloke who had a reserved occupation, but kept saying how he wished he had been allowed to fight. After the chap had departed, he said, 'there were ways out of it....you didn't have to go. but if you wanted to fight, there was plenty of fighting for anybody who wanted it.'

So adding it all up, I'd say - this chap in the programme must have been pretty brave to go, and when he got there - I don't think cowardice was an option. I think he must have been braver than most.

I know the Irish guys couldn't go home in their uniform - they had to be given civilian clothes - otherwise they would have been attacked.

Marching - or driving a tank towards an enemy wearing a uniform is one thing. Going back to the home you have bravely defended, and fearing an unmarked assassin for the rest of your days, is quite another

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 05:01 PM

"The British who fought for Nazi Germany would have came home to the same welcome."

Hardy a comparison though as Nazi Germany was actively at war with Britain. Hence if a Brit fought for Nazi Germany then you were aiding against your own country. Britain wasn't at war with Ireland in WWII. Fighting against the Nazis was not an attack on Ireland. Fair enough if we're groping for excuses to explain why people, and their children, were treated the way they were. But as I understand it no-one is seeking to punish anyone for what was done to these men. They are only looking to have them pardoned. All countries have skeletons in their cupboard. Issues should be examined without looking to blame all ills on the big bogeyman next door.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 05:03 PM

My mother's family from Galway hated me because I was in the British army and that was 1960's and 70's. The British who fought for Nazi Germany would have came home to the same welcome.

Being in the British Army during the war against the Nazis isn't perhaps exactly the same situation as being in the British Army during a time of armed conflict in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 07:33 AM

Kevin, I am referring to the British Free Corps. Those in it were given a uniform - it was of German field grey colour, with the Union Jack on one sleeve, a collar patch of three lions or three leopards and a cuff with 'Britische Freikorps' on it. The fought for the nazi's, not against them.

Alan, "Britain wasn't at war with Ireland in WWII" that is correct, maybe the Irish Republican Army and it's supporters may not agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC documentary: Irish WWII soldiers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 08:27 AM

'Being in the British Army during the war against the Nazis isn't perhaps exactly the same situation as being in the British Army during a time of armed conflict in Ireland.'

I think a lot of Irish people saw it as pretty much the same thing.