BS: National Defense Authorization Act

Subject: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 10:45 PM

Just to let you know Obama signed this .... it is now law.

National Defense Authorization Act - Now What

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:18 PM

Aren't you in Canada? It doesn't apply to you.

Its a symptom of the way laws are made here. To fund the military he had to swallow that turd. Lucky for you with the Citizens United Ruling, you can send money to defeat the Congressmen who pushed this through.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:21 PM

Yes, I'm a Canadian like you .... just wanted to make any Madcatters from the U.S. aware of what is happening ..... that is if they are really interested.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:24 PM

Good question in the title of your link, 6.

I would like to hear the Obama-supporters' defend this one.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:36 PM

This is a very concerning move by Obama .... a quote from that article I posted ....

"There is some controversy on this point, in part because the law as written is entirely too vague. But whether or not the law will be used to indefinitely detain US citizens domestically, it is written to allow the detention of US citizens abroad as well as foreigners without trial."

In answer to Jack's statement that it doesn't concern me (being a Canadian) ... well it does in some ways.

OK .... so Obama says he would never enact it ... well, who says the next future Presidents won't

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:53 PM

I am in the US, this law affects me. The previous policy did not. Until it was signed I had a legal right of habeas corpus. I am not worried, not until the next president is elected. By all means if you do not like the US system. Use your money to change it. As a non-citizen foreigner, you have less restrictions on your spending than my wife and me.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:04 AM

It can affect anyone who travels to the USA. A great many Canadians do travel to the USA now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Songwronger
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:06 AM

Actually, it's the "Homeland Battlefield Act" that's the problem. It was tacked onto the NDAA. Congress rarely fails to pass funding bills, so all kinds of oppressive crap is attached to them.

The myth that Obama didn't want this bill and signed it reluctantly is 100% bullshit.

http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com/2011/12/senator-levin-revealed-it-was-obama-who.html

That's a link to a video clip of U.S. Senator Carl Levin telling you that Obama hisself wanted the detention wording in the bill. Levin's a Democrat. He says the oppressive wording was not in the version they sent to the White House, so Obama sent it back to be nastied up a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:11 AM

"As a non-citizen foreigner, you have less restrictions on your spending than my wife and me."

That being the case, Jack, that non-citizen foreigners have fewer restrictions, send your money to some one you know and trust back home and have them invest it as you wish. That way you can help elect those you want instead of those ya got.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:12 AM

Of course the mainstream media has not mentioned the signing of this treacherous bill into law .... the whole thing is very concerning.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:15 AM

Nice propaganda effort, eh? This is how you get draconian archconservative legislation passed...you do it when there's a supposedly liberal and "nice" guy serving as president. I call it "Stealth Fascism". Bush probably couldn't have gotten away with it, because people expected Bush to do stuff like that. Obama can get away with it, because his naive supporters don't expect him to do stuff like that.

The same kind of thing was done in the UK when Blair, the supposedly liberal and nice guy, took the UK to war in Iraq in spite of massive public protest. If a Labour government would do that, then where can the UK public turn? Nowhere, that's where. The parties all really serve the Oligarchy...and the Oligarchy wages war wherever it wants to, regardless of public opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:19 AM

Stealth Fascism .... I like that expression .... and true it is.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Songwronger
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:21 AM

I read an article the other day explaining how to cover your back in a country where the government "disappears" people. Like America does in Afghanistan and other places.

When they come to the door and tell you that they need to speak to you "downtown" or "at headquarters," you immediately call whomever you can and give the names of the officers, badge numbers, stated destinations, etc.

You do that because what the authorities do is hold you a couple of hours, to see if anyone inquires about you, then they take you to another location for "processing" or because "detainment is full at this facility." And once you get in the car for transport to another location, your ass is history. They do a couple of more transfers and then take you to the place where you'll meet your end--a ditch on the side of the road, a plane to Guantanamo or wherever.

Obama's America, where the media focuses our attention on his black skin instead of his black shirts.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:24 AM

"Of course the mainstream media has not mentioned the signing of this treacherous bill into law .... the whole thing is very concerning."

Possibly they are concerned they'll be the first to have the new law tested on them ?

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 01:01 AM

and trust back home

aye...

there is the rub!!!

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 01:08 AM

"If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself" - Bob Dylan

Other than that...it's not too easy to find someone you can trust...but I can think of a handful of people I trust. They all live pretty close by.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 01:37 AM

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 01:38 AM

You trusted Carol and me once. I appreciate that.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:57 PM

Yeah, I basically trust you. Too bad Mr Kucinich was served so badly by the Democratic party machine in 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 02:44 PM

JtS... you can trust me. And I'll vouch for 9, rum, LH, sIx, Beer, ragdoll, Bernie, Sandy... heck, there's lot's of us. I'd be a little leary of Ed T, though. Some a them there Bluenosers, eh? >;-D

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 04:15 PM

Believers in liberty have prized the The Posse Comitatus Act (18 U.S.C. § 1385) of June 18, 1878, right behind the U. S. Constitution.

The act spelled out many of our freedoms and banned the use of the U. S. military against the U. S. people.

I was listening to brilliant lawyer last night who said that Posse Comitatus is dead. It was just a piece of legislation, not a part of the Constitution, and that it was replaced by provisions of the National Defence Authorization Act.

Any word of this on the evening news?

Does anybody even care?

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 04:22 PM

"Any word of this on the evening news?" .... obviously no

Does anybody even care? .... I think not, most people seem to be comfortably numb.

biLL ... :)

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:07 PM

I was living in Montreal when the War Measures Act was brought in (for the third time--it was used in WWI and WWII also). History has shown us that the Canadian military behaved exempliarily/exemplearely/exemplearily very well. The people who got out of hand were the police. (As an aside, The RCMP didn't want the Act used, but they at that time were considered to be quasi military (an instruction from my militia days was that soldiers were expected to salute RCMP officers if a military officer would be saluted in a similar circumstance)). Anyway, over 465 people were arrested, many of them artists, poets, singers and other writers--mostly French--because at some time or other they had spoken about Quebec sovereignty. It was a flat-out abuse of power, and imo the one very dark spot on Trudeau's leadership that would never allow me to vote for him after that. Today, most thinking people perceive the invocation of the Act at the time as unnecessary and certainly abusive.

You good folks in the US had better have a good look at what your president and leaders have agreed to. It sucks, big time. And that type of authoritarianism shows your country to be little better than places like Turkey, Iran, China, North Korea when it comes to civil rights. You just lost them on paper, and even though it's unlikely Obama would use the new law to the detriment of Americans, wtf will you do if a fundamentalist idiot gets in? Hell, some folks on Mudcat were actually seeing Palin then Bachmann as viable. If you are not scared by the NDAA, then it's time you had a good think about it.

And visitors to your country: I think you'll see a drop because people just don't like visiting authoritarian states. If as a foreign national I break a law, I deserve the same trail as you'd give one of your nationals. Now, you no longer have to do that. Detain as long as you want. Years, forever. Sorry, but I don't trust ANYone with that type of authorization. You need to repeal that, and if the only way to do it is vote Obama out and an independent in, then do so.

It's been said that people get the government they vote for. Did any one of you vote for this?

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:13 PM

Well said 999 !

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:17 PM

Yup. I've not visited the USA since George Bush was elected. I see even stronger reasons for not visiting it now. Frankly, the USA scares me.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:53 PM

Sorry for the thread drift.

As for Trudeau invoking the War Measures Act, I think it was a show of force and it was used to do just what he said it was to do during the famous "just watch me interview". I think he kicked ass and I don't understand why he should not have. Can you teach me why, 9? I would really like to know. BTW, the army went through house to house searches en masse after the murder. They did not just arrest artists.

Same thing when he directed the army to return to base in PQ from exercises out west via Montreal (not widely publicized). A show of force.

As for "Je Me Souviens" on the license plates being a cry to the October Crisis as touted by some Seperatists I knew... really? That kinda bites it IMO. Mayhem and murder or "law and order"?

Don't get me wrong. I have said more than once that I feel the Quebecois are far more Canadian at times than many Canadians... in fact, if shit here keeps getting shittier, youse in Ormstowmn might have a new neighbour in the not too distant future. I might even vote for "Levesque". But only after I get citizenship. >;-)

And, now, back to our regular programming.

As 9 has pointed out, you Yanks are getting screwed royally. Here in Canada, as 9 has pointed out, it can be done at the drop of a hat. Fight it. The whole world looks up to youse guys... or... did.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Songwronger
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 07:00 PM

The Military Commissions Act (2006) took away habeas corpus, and the John Warner Defense Authorization Act (2006) ended Posse Comitatus. Obama said he would repeal the Military Commissions Act, but that was just another lie.

The Nazis at Nuremberg had a legitimate defense in saying they were abiding by the law. German law under the Nazis had been twisted so radically that the judges and civilian administrative officials were operating within it. That's what's being set up in America. Our "disappearances" will be entirely legal.

I read the other day that a record number of firearms were sold in the U.S. in December 2011. 2 million gun sales the FBI ran checks on. 2 million guns in one month. So people know what's coming.

When Obama re-authorized the Patriot Act he did so from Paris, France. He used an "electronic pen" to sign the thing at the last minute. Technically that signature was and still remains illegal--you need to actually put pen to paper to sign legislation. But Obama broke the law and no one challenged him, and now we have a precedent which will allow him to, technically, run a government in exile when the shooting begins.

And it's all so damned unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 07:41 PM

Gnu, allow me to give the short version if you will. From Wiki, but a good and factual opinion, imo.

"At the time, opinion polls throughout Canada, including in Quebec, showed widespread support for the use of the War Measures Act.[1] The response, however, was criticized at the time and subsequently by a number of prominent leaders, including René Lévesque, Robert Stanfield,[2] and Tommy Douglas,[3] who believed the actions to be excessive and the precedent to suspend civil liberties dangerous. The criticism was reinforced by evidence that police officials had abused their powers and detained, without cause, prominent artists and intellectuals associated with the sovereignty movement.[4]"

########################################

I'm was and still am of the opinion that it was a police matter--NOT a military matter. I know about the 'show of force', etc., but the FLQ was just a gang, not an army or guerrilla force. The invocation of the WMA gave them more press than they ever deserved. They were punks, little more, and little less. IMO, Trudeau made a big mistake. Not as big as the one we see the Americans making, but on a Canadian scale, big.

The police abuse was evident in Montreal. The military guys I spoke with were cool. But then the military has a reluctance to kill its own citizens. The cops live in a different world. They deal with scum on a daily basis, and they could have done their jobs without the military.

Couple guys I met outside a building in downtown Montreal (Vandoos) asked what I had in the guitar case. I went over to them, opened the case and took out the guitar, sang two songs and put the guitar back. Before I left I asked how it was going. They showed me the FNs they were holding. Both had safeties on. The military was cool. The cops, not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 10:48 PM

The right wing NOISE MACHINE is so loud and backed by Boss Hog, Inc. and *Big Media* that Obama must feel like a pinball... If he is lucky he gets 30 seconds of microphone time a day verses hours and hours of relentless right wing ***push, push and more push back***...

This is reality in America... You can say it ain't so... You can post the right wing BIG LIES that the American Enterprise Institute or the Americans for Prosperity or the Heritage Council pump out 24/7 trying to get a black president out of office but these are all BIG LIES...

Lets do a review of the BIG LIES by the rich people who don't want to pay their fair share:

1. The stimulus didn't work: BIG LIE...

2. Barney Frank and Cris Dodd cause the housing crisis: BIG LIE...

3. No, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac caused the housing crisis: pick you5r BIG LIE

4. Obama created the current deficit: BIG LIE

5. Obama wants to take your money and give it black people: BIG LIE (source: GingRICH and Santorum's statements of the last few dayds)

6. Cutting DoD funding will make *US* vulnerable to being attacked by Iran: BIG LIE... The US Defense budget it greater than the accumulated defense budget of the next 10 countries...

7. Liberals hate America: BIG LIE

8. Man was created 5,000 years ago: BIG LIE

9. Climate change is cyclical and has nothing to do with man burning stuff: BIG LIE

10. We have to disenfranchise millions of black and young voters because they are ap6t to cheat and try to vote twice: BIG LIE

Let's get real here folks... The right wing is the wing of the BIG LIARS...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 11:25 PM

Maybe so, Bobert, but 'you know who' just signed a law removing Habeas Corpus if it is convenient to government to do so! That, sir, is fact. Explain it to me.

You think it ok to advocate for this guy? Sheet fire, I am ashamed that four years back I was arguing with you to vote for him. Recall that you we're going to give your vote to a person who lost. I love you like a brother, but you are way wrong about this. He sold out the American people. Including you!

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 11:32 PM

Horse crap. For one thing, Congress cannot pass a law that over rides the Bill of Rights. For another He has said that he won't use those powers. Its the "Defense of Marriage act" all over. Obama has not sold anyone out. Not over this anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 11:40 PM

Habeas Corpus was trashed by Bush a long time ago, brucie... There are hundreds of "Exhibit A's" down in Guitmo... Obama inherited them and tried to change things but the Repubs headed him off at the pass saying, "No way we're gonna let those folks be tried in America"... This is a very bad hand that Obama is having to play without not just a majority but a severely fucked up hand with Senate rules that give the minority all the power (?????????????????????????????)... That is our reality... We no longer have majority rule... We have minority rule and they are ruling with a BIG stick and they have whacked Obama with it every day since he was elected....

I mean, a little perspective is in order here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 12:03 AM

Jack .... Obama said he would never use those powers, and hopefully he won't .... in a year's time there will be (in all probability) a new president, and who knows what kind of nut they will be, and how they will use this new law.

He should not have signed it into law.

Bush broke the law .... Obama just now made it all legal.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:35 AM

"Horse crap."

That's a fine old expression, Jack. I use it from time to time, also.

The problem is that your Bill of Rights--the first ten amendments to your constitution--doesn't really address habeas corpus. True, 5 and 6 seem to, but they reinforce

Article 1, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution:

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

I wonder now when OWS will be accused of rebellion. Then carted away to be heard from no longer.

And as for "For one thing, Congress cannot pass a law that over rides the Bill of Rights." Uh, they just did.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 01:37 PM

"..and they thought it couldn't happen here!...they were so sure....couldn't happen here"--Frank Zappa

Well, we were told...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 01:44 PM

and on that same note..and album.....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 01:58 PM

As I recall, Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus during the civil war.

If one man's liberty is at risk, the liberty of all men is at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:21 PM

9... "The military was cool. The cops, not so much." Perhaps why PET decided to absolutely stop the shit in it's tracks. And... he did. He could paddle a canoe and kick the crap outta reporters and hecklers that got in his face, too. Fuddle Duddle. >;-)

I don't think he was grandstanding. I think he was doing what he thought was right. Of course, it's all conjecture as we don't know what he knew... or didn't. In any case, after Tommy, he's my #1 alltime.

Sorry for the thread drift... again.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:30 PM

No problem, gnu. I still like PET, but I changed politically after that October.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:41 PM

JTS: "Obama has not sold anyone out. Not over this anyway."

ANYONE???????????????????????????????????????????

Jeez.....welcome to Guantanamo!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 12:25 AM

I misspoke.

I believe that that law will be overturned by the Supreme Court, even this Supreme Court It was a cheap political ploy like everything else this Republican Congress has done.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 03:50 AM

JTS: "I misspoke."

Yeah, Well the Senate hasn't been too helpful either...still blaming the Republicans for that, too?

Jeez, If you are musician/showman..to any degree, can't you recognize 'theater' when you see it?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 11:05 AM

No problem, Jack. Once again, I hope you're correct. I do not expect Obama will use it, but I don't think his government is really in charge of Homeland Security (or the assorted other agencies in the US). I 'sense' that something big is about to happen that will require people to be controlled. Something we have so far thought impossible.

Some years back on Mudcat I made mention of the NWO, public cameras with the ability to track individuals, conspiracy by multinationals to enslave the people of this world through economic means, the refurbishment of camps meant for the 'detention' of people, the use of the military and quasi-military groups to perform police functions on American soil against American citizens, the possibility that communications would be controlled by government--anyway, I was ridiculed by many people here and told to take off my tinfoil hat. Anyone want to borrow my hat? Had it for years, but it's just like new.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 11:23 AM

What we NEED, obviously, is a rule that prevents tacking on amendments to a bill that are not **directly related** to the bill! Or the right of a president to veto parts of a bill....

Trouble is, each party want those when it is convenient for THEIR interests.

Obama knows full well what he is signing and how the Republicans are using legislative blackmail to get nasty stuff thru! He is using the best workarounds that he can under the circumstances. Solution? Re-elect him and give him a decent majority in Congress so this shit doesn't happen!

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 11:49 AM

Assume everyone elected to the House and the Senate who has been pushing this crap through and who is up for election this time 'round were to be replaced by thinking representatives, and that the pro-Obama faction voted as a block to see that happen. Fact is, there would still not be sufficient numbers in 2012 to effect a change. I did the 'math' about two months back.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: number 6
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 01:34 PM

999 ... "I 'sense' that something big is about to happen that will require people to be controlled. Something we have so far thought impossible."

I wonder if that 'something else" would have something to do with what is now happening over in the mid-east which is not being reported in the mainstream media.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 03:50 PM

biLL, I will get back to you, likely off thread. If it's what I think then a few hours won't matter at all, even a few days or weeks. It is not about the joint US-Israeli missile/anti-missile exercises in the mid-east or the posturing of Iran and the two aforementioned countries. It's much more important than that. I just need a bit of time to formulate my thoughts and get a few 'speculations' sorted out.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 04:43 PM

Dream on!!..Why would ANYONE support this..unless it was in an agenda to use it??..It won't matter if it was passed by Democraps OR Republicunts....That's only theater....'and the big fool says to march on!'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 06:34 PM

GfS... for once, I agrre... if you have no intention to use it, why pass it? Scarey shit man.

Subject: RE: BS: National Defense Authorization Act
From: number 6
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 08:49 PM

I agree, there has to be some agenda to all of this ..... 999 connect with me when you can.

biLL