BS: Groan...another US Presidential election

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 11:19 AM

"..obama would change only what he was allowed to change "

Allowed by WHOM? Ask the Republican senate why they refuse to pass anything of significance! The whole point is to be able to say "he failed to pass anything"

Again...you are inserting your opinions as if they are what the world in general thinks.

You toss out lines like "Failure to stand against Israeli expansion and murdering of civilians in Iran?" as if it was obvious that he both could and should do such.

"Drone warfare" ... as opposed to the old-fashioned way of dealing with enemies that Bush & company employed? Like inventing an excuse to send 200,000 soldiers to run in circles and get themselves killed? Much of the drone warfare was needed because of the surge in terrorist activity caused BY Bush policies. NOTHING about warfare...on ANY level... is happy or easy to make palatable, but if we must cope with terror groups, drones are both cheaper & safer than about any other means.

Ake... one could take most of your complaints and opinions and cut & paste them into Republican political speeches and no one would notice.

(Jack & Ebbie said it more succinctly than I did, but you get the idea)

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 03:28 AM

But Hillary the Hawk did make a wonderful speech on "gay rights".....so everything's OK in the "liberal" corral.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 03:23 AM

Habeas Corpus?
Drone Warfare?
Failure to stand against Israeli expansion and murdering of civilians in Iran?
Permanent presence in Iraq?
"The beat goes on"

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:51 PM

he now leads a country less free and more hated abroad than even George Bush could manage."

I would suggest that Ake needs a better class of friends and acquaintances.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 06:30 PM

"he now leads a country less free and more hated abroad than even George Bush could manage. "

What and ugly steaming pile of horse shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 04:59 PM

I am not mistaken Bill and neither was my friend....we were referring to the promises of "change".
I said at election time, that Mr obama would change only what he was allowed to change and so it transpired, he now leads a country less free and more hated abroad than even George Bush could manage.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 04:30 PM

akenaton: You mistake 'failure' (due to new Senate rules )for being controlled by a party machine.

"She was a supporter of Mr Obama,.......she was bitterly disapointed, but not surprised when that political capital was squandered.
"It is the Chicago disease", said she."

...and you do not see how both you and your friend have inserted personal opinions into your 'analysis' of what various events meant?
Unless she was an insider and privy to personal conversations WITH Obama, she cannot possibly know why or with what pressures Obama did anything! "Political capital was squandered" is a subjective opinion based on disappointment that certain things did not happen as she wished.

Very few presidents, with the exception of Lyndon Johnson, had enough 'capital' AND knew where enough bodies were buried to be able to force legislation on the unwilling and be able to make them smile while their arms were being twisted....and LBJ was able to TALK like a southern bigot while explaining that they just HAD to pass Civil Rights legislation. Obama would not and could not do that!


--------------------------------------


From: Bobert - PM
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:34 AM

Actually what America needs is half a dozen parties and do away with voting districts in states to favor a delegation that best represents the entire electorate


ummm...isn't that what I just said?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 01:27 PM

Most of the Americans I've met seem like nice folks, Olddude. Which belief were you referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 12:34 PM

don't agree LH, I don't think a very large number of us Americans believe that, however, on TV all one ever gets to see is the outer edges of the zany ... cause well, it makes good TV. Most americans I know have their heads screwed on pretty well

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 11:36 AM

Here in the UK we have a Monster Raving Loony Party. Official website here.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 11:12 AM

Sort of. We've got 5 parties of significant size:

Conservative Party (sort of like the Republicans, only less so)
Liberal Party (sort of like the Democrats, only more so)
New Democratic (supposedly socialist...but not really...)
Green Party (ecological?)
Bloc Quebecois (strictly in Quebec)

There are some other really small parties, but they are of little significance.

One problem with the above scenario is that our "first past the post" electoral system has resulted in a party with only about 38-40 percent of the public on its side getting a majority in the last election! This has not been good for the country. We need to have proportional representation or some other kind of voting procedure to cure that problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 11:00 AM

Isn't approximately half a dozen parties what Canada has now?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:56 AM

Yes, Bobert, I think that would be much better than the present 2-party system. Half a dozen relatively equal parties would result in coalitions and compromise, as you say...rather than a bitter "us against them" mentality, which is what you have now.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:34 AM

Actually what America needs in half a dozen parties and do away with voting districts in states to favor a delegation that best represents the entire electorate... I mean, if 10% of your state's population supports the Green Party and that state had 10 House members then one should represent the interests of the Green Party...

This would force coalitions and compromise...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 09:30 AM

Conclusions from the poll Songwronger quoted are deeply suspect.

"What is your SINGLE biggest fear?" Does not translate well to "Who will you vote for?"

Here are the results from the link.....

As we enter the presidential election year of 2012, what potential news event do you fear the most?

President Obama wins reelection 33%

Taxes will increase 31%

Iran will get a nuclear weapon 16%

Obama will lose reelection 16%

North Korea will attack South Korea 4%

.......

Songwronger seems to be way off base interpreting those results as a sure sign that Obama will lose. In fact if you added.

"Romney will be elected."
"Ron Paul will become President and announce the dismantling of the US monetary system."
and
"Gingrich will get his hands on the Nuclear launch codes"

The results would be much different. Obama generally does better against any single Republican than against a generic, ideal, theoretical, unexamined GOP candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 08:52 AM

That's not what is usually meant by "Chicago politics".

And given that AFAIK the polls for Obama against any republican show Obama several points clear I don't understand how Songwronger's assertion above can be correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 03:23 AM

Bill, I have a very good friend who was part of the Domocrat organisation in Chicago, the same organisation which propagated Mr obama.



She is now married and resides in Scotland, but is a child of a top Dem political family. I can assure you that the "classic Chicago mentality" has not been left in the twentieth century.
She was a supporter of Mr Obama,as she believed that the groundswell of support for him would inspire the man; she was bitterly disapointed, but not surprised when that political capital was squandered.
"It is the Chicago disease", said she.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 07:51 PM

"The best system is to have no parties whatsoever, .."

Perhaps...but you KNOW like-minded folks would collude behind the scenes. It might be safer to keep them semi-public about it. *IF* there are to be parties, a genuine multi-party system like Israel uses could at least allow people to group themselves into arrangements that more closely represent their actual views....This would require a total change in the primary process and voting procedures, as well as congressional changes.

"...but strictly on their own individual merits and ideas."

That is the rub....such a system would allow really good ideas and candidates, but would also invite every off-the-wall kook to claim equal rights to the process instead of being vetted BY the party system. (as we see at the moment, it is already a problem within the system). Designing a way to sort thru the field without $$$ involved would be tricky. I AM willing to consider ideas to make that work.

Remember, the Greek system required everyone to serve a term, like the jury system.... that both intrigues & scares me.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 07:01 PM

In our New Year's poll, when asked what news event they fear most about 2012, Americans by a margin of two-to-one said Obama's reelection. Only 16 percent said they fear the Democrat won't win a second term, while 33 percent said they fear four more years.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2012/01/09/poll-americans-2-1-fear-obamas-reelection

Obama's history. The only way he'll another term is with a 2000-style supreme court theft. Good riddance.

Romney currenly has 12 electoral votes and Ron Paul has 10. I hope Paul gets the nomination and doesn't split the vote with a third-party run, but we'll see. I guess that's another way Obama could get another term.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:51 PM

Ha! ;-D No, Bill. Think back: they did not yet have any political parties at the original Constitutional Convention. And James Monroe, one of your founding fathers, advised strongly against ever forming them, saying it would eventually destroy democracy. I believe he was quite correct about that.

You don't need political parties in order to provide a field of candidates for an election...but as soon as you have those parties in existence, they completely take over the process, and their primary purpose becomes enlarging and perpetuating themselves and securing a hold on power by any means possible, fair or foul. And the politicians all become servants of the parties themselves, NOT servants of the public.

Like a corporation, a political party is a potentially immortal and self-perpetuating artificially created entity that devours and outlasts the very people who form it. It's a monster.

A one-party system is probably even more pernicious. It's an even bigger monster.

The best system is to have no parties whatsoever, and to provide equal public funding for a broad slate of independent candidates who get elected by the public NOT on a partisan basis, but strictly on their own individual merits and ideas. They then form a national legislature, vote for some officers amongst themselves to help organize it in a procedural sense, and then work as a united parliament of independent voices, all with an equal voice in passing legislation. That's a real democracy, devoid of party politics. It can be done. It has been done here and there in the past. It should be done. It would end much of the corruption of the present order (though surely not all of it).

That's a political theory. Yeah, I know it's not going to happen in the near future...or is at least very unlikely to...but I am discussing political theory, okay? If we didn't now and then consider theoretical alternatives to things we've all grown up with, how would humanity ever move forward to anything better than what they already have?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:41 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:24 PM

"... I think the custom of having ANY political parties whatsoever is a political aberration,"

Right! I tend to agree.. maybe we should find others who think that way and get organized! We could have a convention and field a candidate....

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:09 PM

Yesterday Ake said.."You think a Chicago Democrat is interested in changing the system?"

today JohnP said:.."Of course everything is owned and run by the rich."

Even though I see the point of both remarks...and to some extent see the germ of relevance in both of them... I am so weary of ANYONE trying to make serious points with such generalizations. As Don F. indicated, not all Chicago Democrats exhibit the 'classic' mentality of Chicago politics from the middle of the last century.

And ".. everything is owned and run by the rich." is simply inaccurate. Perhaps too MUCH is, and being rich can **tend** to make one feel like being rich is a birthright and helps them justify nefarious ways to stay rich and get richer.
   I SEE all that.. but real understanding of the system is hindered by relying on simplistic slogans and generalizations. It gets wise nods in a session of bitching, but barely scratches the surface of how money, politics, culture, education, media and various personalities interact to form the constantly changing dynamic we encounter when we try to cope...and when we decide how - or whether - to vote!

It simply takes more time than most people are able or willing to devote to sort out the wheat from the chaff in political ads and to listen to 27 different pundits declaim at length on THEIR interpretation.
Often it comes down to deciding which is "the lesser of two evils", even though the concept of 'evil' is never clearly thought out.

What we DO see is that the Republicans are engaged in an amazing game of "Whack-a-Mole" where all the moles AND all the observers have whacking mallets! No one seems to be making the point that they might all be right in their condemnations and characterizations of each other.
I expect that a major portion of the Democratic platform and campaign this year will be to clarify just how the 'problems' and disappointments that people feel did NOT begin with Obama.
There is some doubt these days just how a gen-you-wine honest, committed and competent president/leader CAN manage to juggle 23 balls, figure out what makes sense, gather money, give speeches, gain votes ....and get any sleep.

Gonna be interesting, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:03 PM

Fine. Let's all just talk about whatever interests us, okay? I don't particularly mind the fact that various people here see some political matters differently than I do, so why do they mind that I see some political matters differently than they do?

If we waited to be "happy" until everyone else who dared speak out   agreed with us about everything, we'd have a long wait, wouldn't we?

Regarding the OWS movement, I've always been strongly in favour of it. I like the fact that it's nonpartisan, and that it questions the ruling order.

Romney? I'm not impressed. He seems to be like a marshmallow...able to reshape himself to fit any desired aperture. :-D (but that's pretty common behaviour for politicians, come to think of it)

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:41 PM

Little Hawk I think he does understand your position quite well enough. You do keep restating the same irrelevant position in relation to many different topics. Basically, you try to change the topic of most aspects of US federal politics from what ever specific topic is being discussed to "There is no difference between the parties, the fix is in."

Most of the the rest of us would rather talk about Romney, or corn subsidies or OWS or whatever the thread was started to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:40 PM

I'm also basically a socialist, by the way, I always have been, and I DO vote for whichever candidates I have the most confidence in, with the hope that it might make some small improvement in things. I probably have a good deal more in common with you than you seem to think I do.

Where I differ most radically from most people is: They take a political party-based system for granted, having grown up in it, and they think that it is a necessary and integral part of a representative democracy.

I don't. I think the custom of having ANY political parties whatsoever is a political aberration, a huge mistake in human history, and that the political parties themselves are destroying genuinely representative democracy not only in the USA, but all across the world.

That's why I have little or no confidence in any of them.

But I still vote for the individual candidates I feel are the best at any given time...regardless of their party affiliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:24 PM

John, you simply do not understand my position at all if you think that I think that "nothing makes any difference".

As for people "repeating what (they)'ve already said on the subject over and over and over again"....EVERYBODY does that. Everybody in the friggin' WORLD does that. On EVERY conceivable subject. Without fail. Yourself included. Everybody here repeats themselves because they are expressing their own accustomed thoughts and views, and their own thoughts and views are consistently and naturally organized according to their own unique view of things. So they repeat themselves, don't they? They'd have to stop being themselves and become someone else to avoid repeating themselves.

If you find my repetitive thoughts so boring, just don't read my posts anymore and save yourself the stress of all those unpleasant hostile reactions you seem to be experiencing.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: John P
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:10 PM

Akenaton, I have no hope of changing the system with my vote. Of course everything is owned and run by the rich. As a socialist, I am so far from most of my fellow citizens that I feel like I'm alone in a wasteland. I am painfully aware of how little influence me or anyone I know will ever have on the basic nature of our culture.

What my vote can get me is an administration that cares a little more about normal people, that wants to regulate (and tax!) the rich, that wants us to live according to our constitution, and that doesn't promote official discrimination against women, immigrants, people of color, and gay people.

This has been said here many times and no one has ever come up with a rational answer for it. So, Akenaton and Little Hawk, take your "nothing makes any difference" bullshit and shove it. Or you could answer the point without repeating what you've already said on the subject over and over and over again. You're both very boring as things stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:32 PM

Seems truthful enough. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/20/40-of-americans-still-bel_n_799078.html

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:27 PM

Greg F has proven he has noi interest in the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:16 PM

That was a Gallup Poll, Greg. 40% said they believe in creationism. I would have to see how the questions were phrased to accept that 40% of the uS population does not accept any evidence of evolution. Many creationists believe that there was a creation AND an evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 10:09 AM

"It seems to me that the current Republican attacks on "vulture capitalism" (even though I wonder if there is any other sort) may help to polarise the "independent voters" against Romney (if he is then the presidential candidate) when the presidential election comes."

Romney was a real life Gordon Gecko from the first "Wall Street" film.

Romney has been promoting himself as someone who "knows how to create jobs" because of his experience at Bain. The Democrats had been planning all along to attack him on the basis that Bain Capital basically made its money by liquidating companies and destroying jobs.
The only difference is, when they use Republicans in the ads, the ads will get more credence.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 09:26 AM

Only if the "independent voters" are morons- I thought the Repubs & their fellow travellers WORSHIPPED capitalism, free enterprise and "the invisible hand of the market".

Of course, with 40% of the U.S. population not "believing in" evolution, morons are pretty plentiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 04:09 AM

It seems to me that the current Republican attacks on "vulture capitalism" (even though I wonder if there is any other sort) may help to polarise the "independent voters" against Romney (if he is then the presidential candidate) when the presidential election comes.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:31 AM

Well, yes, Don, if I may quote Commander Data from Star Trek...

"Resistance is NOT futile!"

Corrupt systems do fall eventually, whether by the people's will...or due to their own mismanagement and hubris...or by some other means. They fall because they lose touch with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:30 AM

"This is done at the ballot box. But one vote obviously isn't enough. Talk to people. Know the facts and educate. Persuade!"

Most people, when they become "educated" realise that the rules of the game preclude them from effecting any meaningful change.
Thereafter, most decide to join the side which always wins, they convince themselves that they are working for change, when in fact those people are the biggest impediment.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:07 AM

"…..the existing party-based system of divisive, destructive politics and the web of corrupt patronage and lobbying that sustains it."

Little Hawk, the current system is no more corrupt than it was under Nixon, which, God knows, was corrupt enough. Yet, when enough people got together and demanded it, Nixon was forced—by the people—to resign, and a war was stopped.

"I'm not sure how any of that can be accomplished within the present system, because it is financially beneficial to the elected politicians NOT to change it."

That was true in Nixon's time as well

We've done it before. We can do it again. The same way.

That is, as long as the defeatists (encouraged by the Powers That Be) don't go around and manage to convince everyone that it IS futile.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 12:11 AM

That's odd. Is that what they are saying, Bobert? My expectation would be more along the lines that he will get re-elected.

I fully agree that initiatives by highly motivated individuals can help to spark change. The changes I've seen in my lifetime have been profound...some for the better...some not...but many people had to change their minds before society changed.

The politicians and elite power-mongers tend to catch up much later to public desires for change which simply cannot be held back any longer...they finally yield to those changes...and this led to integration, the end of the Vietnam War, and other great victories for progressive forces in society.

I'm all for that.

What I am not for is the existing party-based system of divisive, destructive politics and the web of corrupt patronage and lobbying that sustains it. A way has to be found to break that and replace it with something far better. Election campaigns should be greatly shortened, at least in the USA. Campaign funding is desperately in need of reform. Corporate lobbying needs to be drastically curtailed. I'm not sure how any of that can be accomplished within the present system, because it is financially beneficial to the elected politicians NOT to change it.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:26 PM

Well, I find it interesting that if you listen to the BIG MEDIA talking heads they all are repeating the same BS BIG LIE: "Well, Obam will probably not get re-elected"... I mean, who is telling them to plant this seed???

Never mind... They are part of the Chamber of Commerce, corporate BS line...

So much for a "liberal media"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:17 PM

If you think the election has already been decided by "them" - by all means - stay home on election day. Let the election be decided by those of us who think otherwise.

That's assuming you're even registered to vote in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:05 PM

"There have been huge changes in my lifetime all brought about by grassroots movements supporting politicians who support the change."

Exactly so, Sins!

I, too, have seen many changes that would never have happened had it not been for rank and file citizens getting sufficiently outraged at the way things were that they got together with others who felt as they did, and put sufficient pressure on our "leaders"—who, after all, are our employees!—to enact the necessary changes. And voted out those who were adamantly blocking progress.

Franklin D. Roosevelt did a great deal for the general populace, much to the irritation of those whom Bobert characterizes as "Boss Hogg." Folks came to him and told him what they felt should be done. His response in many cases was, "I agree with you. That should be done. Now—make me do it!" In short, give him the popular support that he needed to override those (i.e., Congress) who would try to block it.

This is what Obama needs. He inherited Bush's mess and Congress has been stonewalling his every attempt to put things right. One needs to let Obama know that a substantial number of citizens are behind what he's trying to do—not just piss and moan about him when it doesn't get done—and lean heavily on those Congress members who are hell-bent on trying to see that he fails.

As a citizen, these bozos are your employees. Tell them what you want them to do. If they don't do what you want, fire them and hire someone who will.

This is done at the ballot box. But one vote obviously isn't enough. Talk to people. Know the facts and educate. Persuade!

ONE WOMAN started the Coffee Party with something she posted on her Facebook page. A sufficient number of people responded, agreed with her, and the thing took off!

Who says it's futile?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:56 PM

Oh SINS... oh dear. I have tears in my eyes. That was not a ramble... not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:46 PM

There have been huge changes in my lifetime all brought about by grassroots movements supporting politicians who support the change. In my youth, women worked as secretaries and teachers then they married and had babies. Mothers did not work. They stayed home and cooked and baked and cared for children and often drank heavily ans secretly. Working women were routinely accosted sexually. (It was the norm and I will be happy to substantiate that statement with my own experiences).
My first job with an employment agency allowed women to place women in jobs paying less that $10,000/year. If we got a listing or placed a candidtae in a $10,000+ position, we had to surrender it to a male counterpart BECAUSE "he had or would have a family to support".
Couples who "lived in sin" were shunned by family and friends. Interacial couples were either trailor park trash or pariahs. Interacial children were not tolerated in white society. Gays hid in closets. In fact, they married to provide themselves a "cover". Gay children and teens were bullied, beaten, forced into "appropriate" gender roles and shunned if they could not comply. Unwed mothers had their babies "away" and never saw them again.
There was a draft but you could "opt out" by staying in college or belonging to a union whose workers were critical to the war effort - an outright lie but it kept my brothers safe.
Now tell me - what corporations, millionaires, politicians forced these changes? They didn't. The power of the VOTE did. And the power of people working, dying, going to jail for a cause they believed in.
Did some or many jump on the bandwagon to take advantage of the newly found power or just plain cover their butts and save their jobs? Yes they did. So powerful men buy their support with money; powerful groups buy their support with votes.
Occupy Wall Street had little or no power because they do not have a clearly stated message. If and when they get their act together, state their purpose clearly, form their goals clearly and practically, have credible leaders stating those goals - then they will have the power to produce some real change. It will be interesting to (it has been interesting) to watch.
And while I am rambling - I wonder if the last few years of hardship hitting the middle and lower middle class, forcing them from their jobs and homes, will result in a clear and urgent attempt to repatriate the homeless. Now that they are no longer the drunks and druggies who plague our streets but actually Joe and Marge and their three children - what positive things could come of this?
Sorry for the ramble. A homeless man from Machias froze to death this week. I keep thinking about his mother.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 06:43 PM

So, Ake, you blanketly condemn any and all Democrats from the city of Chicago? Fie, man, fie! The depth of your analysis of Mr. Obama leaves quite a bit to be desired.

Let me be perfectly clear. I DO agree that the system is corrupt. I do NOT agree that the system is irreparable. I may eventually come to that conclusion, but not until some of us, such as the Coffee Party and the Occupy Movement, and things that are growing out of it, have taken a whack at it. The Occupy Movement has a lot of Right-Wing politicians running scared right now, and the Coffee Party is, so far, keeping a fairly low profile, but in line with Thomas Jefferson's remark about an informed electorate being essential to a viable democracy, they are informing themselves and will soon become quite active.

In the meantime, a lot of people, including some here on Mudcat, are running around like a bunch of headless chickens—and cackling insults at anyone who thinks that something might yet be done.

I am also aware that there are a few here who really won't be happy until blood runs in the streets. I, personally, would like to avoid that—if possible. Sorry if I'm working hard to deny you your pleasures (but not really!).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:51 PM

Yes, we need to work towards something far better. But I have never placed much hope in politics in a general sense. Politics is primarily about the use of raw power. It's a cold and ruthless game.

What I place much hope in is the individuals humans whom I know, in the good they can do, and in myself. I think each one of us has a profound potential to do wonders with our lives regardless of what the heck goes on in the world of politics.

As to whether I see any differences between the Republican and Democratic parties....of course! They are notably different, and that's exactly how the great political game works. The game is based upon dividing the public between 2 (or more) outwardly different teams...just like at a football game. The 2 teams must appear different, they must talk differently, they must attract separate groups of loyal fans, otherwise the drama of the game is lost.

I have always greatly preferred the outward appearance and style of the Democrats to that of the Republicans. I note, though, that once in office they both push pretty much the same basic agenda...while posturing in a different fashion. And I think that's because they've been bought out by the same huge monied interests.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should not vote. I vote. (Even though I think all the Canadian parties have sold out to basically the same interests.)

Every here and there is a genuinely honest politician with high ideals. When I see one, I back him up. Dennis Kucinich is one such. I don't believe Obama is...though I had hoped he might be back in 2008. He's either too weak to stand up to the elite...or he was theirs all along...and I suspect the latter is the more likely possibility.

But as I said, my real hopes in life have nothing to do with politics. They have to do with the best that there is inside each one of us...with our friends, our loved ones, our work, our highest ideals, and whatever inspires us. That's what I place my hopes upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:20 PM

You think a Chicago Democrat is interested in changing the system?
Get real!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:16 PM

I stand by what I say, Ake. Insult away if it makes you feel good.

And what I say INCLUDES changing the system. Perhaps not to one of your liking. Nevertheless.....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:07 PM

If you dont understand how the game is played, all your efforts will be in-effectual.

Little Hawk is quite correct,the game is corrupt; so corrupt, that in my case a lifetime of protest has changed it hardly at all, in fact in many ways todays society is more crass and self serving than the communities of my youth.

I think what Hawk is saying is that, given the nature of this political and economic system, your work should be into the construction of something better.
A game where the result is not decided before hand and where the poor are not always the losers.

Your "head rattling" remarks are insulting and quite typical.
You may be short of intelligence, but not nerve!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:35 PM

True, Jack. Talking to hear their heads rattle.

Nevertheless, there are people who buy that canard. I've run into a disturbing number of people who generally wouldn't vote for a Republican, did vote for Obama, but are disappointed in what he's been able to accomplish, and say, "Oh, hell! What's the use! I don't think I'm going to vote this time around."

Constantly repeating the idea that it's already decided just discourages these folks and leaves the decision to the Philistines. Not good!

If you REALLY don't like the way things are, MOVE YOUR ARSE! GET CRACKIN'!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:03 PM

"It makes no difference who you campaign for or vote for, the election has already been decided by THEM!!"

I don't think that anyone who posts on political threads actually believes this. I believe that it is repeated it ad nauseum because it is the point of view that garners the most attention. Look at the people who put this view point across here and yet contradict that point of view by speaking highly of major party officials from Hillary to Ron Paul.