BS: Groan...another US Presidential election

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:26 PM

It appears to be a real election process, but it isn't...because the result is foreordained by those who control the purse strings and the mass media." Little Hawk

Respectfully, sir, may I suggest that you are so full of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:33 PM

If that were true, LH, you would be able to tell us right now who will be elected in November - So?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:49 PM

Doesn't look as if it'll be Freddie Kruger but Rick Sanitorium's still in it. Blimey, I'm starting to sound as if I'm interested!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: gnu
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:31 PM

I was gonna watch the debates but various news clips I have seen and the comments I have read in this forum have precluded that. Hard enough to watch the circus acts here in Canuckistan and we've got some real politicians. Well, we have had some.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 03:44 PM

From the Article you posted LH I have concluded that Margolis is lazy and full of crap.

Exhibit A

"Iowa, a remote farming state filled by fundamentalist born again Christians, accounts for only 1% of US voters."

If the above is true, (it iswn't) those "by fundamentalist born again Christians," voted for Obama last election.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 04:17 PM

You may suggest whatever you like, Ebbie. I'm merely stating an opinion, and I see no need to insult whoever disagrees with me about it.

SINSULL - I don't know who will be "selected" next. How would I know? I'm not among those privileged elites who make that decision. If I were, I'd certainly not have drawn attention to what they do by posting about it here, would I?

If I were to make a guess at this point, I'd say it's most likely Obama who will be elected next November...but it's probably still too early to tell for sure which way the corporate wind will decide to blow. And why should the corporates and banksters worry? They control both the major parties in the USA (just like they do all the major parties in Canada and the UK, by the way), so no matter which "selectee" gets officially elected...he will be their man (or woman, as the case may be), he will do what they want, and the agenda will go forward...with slight differences in outward political "style", depending on which party advances into office...but very little significant difference in actual content.

It's like a championship football game. The 2 teams look different...they say they are different...they even believe they are different...and the divided public believes it too, and cheers wildly for one or the other, and hates the visiting team...but all you get in the end is another damned football game, no matter who wins it. And the Football League (the rich owners) pockets the rewards.

Unlike football, though, it only happens every four years (with an exhibition game at the 2-year halftime). Oh, and it's a lot more dangerous a game than football. People get killed. Lots of people. Most of them are in other countries where they dress funny, don't speak English as their first language, and aren't Baptists.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:07 AM

But anyway, if LH did tell you who had been pre-selected, then he'd have to kill you.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 09:18 AM

So the decision won't be bought and made before the election? Now I am really confused.

LOL Richard - better men have tried and failed. I am old but mean.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 12:35 PM

Right, Richard. ;-D I couldn't let her live with that knowledge, could I?

Now look, Mary...if, as I have long asserted, the same corporate/banking/military elite really controls both the Republican and the Democratic Parties....then they could easily opt to have either one of those parties win a given election, correct? And it wouldn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference which one did. The corruption and the wars would go on. And they have.

But it does make a big difference to the politicians themselves and to the party itself who wins, because there are major financial and career and ego perks involved in playing that game and winning it. This is obvious. No politician wants to lose the game.

I think the main purpose of the patently corrupt and phony election excercise that takes place every 4 years in the USA is to keep the American public itself distracted, bitterly divided, yet ever hopeful, and still naively believing in their old (once) democratic institutions, despite having been betrayed by them again, and again, and again, and again!

It's a cyclical sales and propaganada job by the ruling elite to mollify and control the American public, that's all. It sure doesn't fool anyone else. If the general American public fully realized what is actually going on in their government, if they realized the utterly criminal nature of the system they are living under, they would abandon both those parties for good and there'd be a 2nd American Revolution. Heads would roll. It would make the first Revolution look like a cakewalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 11:39 PM

I just hope that the UNsuccessful candidate who has sunk untold millions of his own money into the race gets reimbursed by the kingmakers who knew - in advance - who was going to win.

sheeit

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 11:57 PM

I haven't heard of any unsuccessful ex-presidential candidates going bankrupt, have you? The rich take care of their own.

Anyway, when the banks can simply create new "money" anytime they want to...in the form of debt that is owed to them by the rest of society...why should there be any lack of it for them and their cronies in business and politics.

And when you control both candidates, why do you have to know far in advance which one of them is going to win? The mood of the public is quite important in the ongoing process...that's what all the hoopla is about, it's intended to sway the mood of the public and capitalize upon it. It's necessary for the credibility of the system that the American public should periodically regain hope and confidence through a new, fresh face (like Obama's in 2008, for instance) being put in front of them! This can mean that one candidate becomes more viable than the other at some point during an election...because no one can guarantee that things won't swing in an unexpected direction...specially with other countries perhaps doing things they weren't expected to.

So the simple answer is this: Buy out the 2 candidates through funding them. Buy out virtually all the congressional candidates too in the same way. Give them all lotsa money so they can throw it into their respective propaganda efforts. Keep an eye on the process. At some point one presidential candidate will probably gain a real advantage over the other. Great. Give him even more money. He'll win. But even if he doesn't, for some unexpected reason...you still own the other candidate's soul anyway. So either way, the elite gets what they want. And that's the real story in Washington.

It's one of the parties that doesn't get what it wants at the end of an election! But why should the elite care about that? It doesn't even matter from their point of view.

Bankers are the real dictators of America. And Canada. And the UK. And most other "democracies". And your vote can't do a damn thing about it...unless you get some very brave and honest politicians at the very top who, by some miracle, manage to get enough funding to make their views known and to get elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:51 AM

Tending to look like Romney -v- Obama then...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/jan/11/republicans-verdict-new-hampshire-primary

Could be handy if the fundie nutters and those who say Mormonism is not Xtianity start carving lumps off the GOP and the Tea Potty abandons ship.

Mind you I still think George the Third was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 12:12 PM

George the Third wasn't a very good monarch...but the overall social and governmental system he was officially presiding over had much to recommend it. Having grown up in Canada, and having lived for 10 years in the USA, I'd have to say that I'd have chosen to back the loyalists in the American Revolution, not the revolutionaries.

Mind you, there were some fine people on both sides, and some good ideas on both sides. Still, I'd have sided with the Crown...and if I'd then survived the conflict I'd have moved north to Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 01:42 PM

Little Hawk, I think you are a fine student of history and no doubt an excellent player of war games.

I don't give as much credence to the conclusions you draw on people themselves. Secondly, your "ten years in the US" imo are not as trust-making as you seem to think. I concede that age 10 to 20 is formative; my contention is that it is also an extremely immature portion of one's life.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:41 PM

Well, one needs to spend a good deal of time in both countries to be sure of where one stands, right? I lived age 1-10 in Canada. Age 10-20 in the USA. Then back to Canada, but went on some extended visits to the USA in the later 70s and 80s when I was in my late 20s/early 30s. Once was there for nine months during the late 70s. My overall impression was: There are lots of nice people in both countries...no real reason to show any favoritism there. But I do like the Canadian governmental and media and social structure a whole lot better, I like the socialized medicine in Canada, I like the national CBC radio show (with no advertising on it) and I like the fact that it's a country with a fairly modest psychological view of itself and its place in the world...that is, it's not a "great power" and never has been. Great powers get too hung up on their military prowess and various notions of their manifest destiny, and that makes me nervous.

I also can't relate very well to a society that thinks of "socialism" as if it were Satanism.

I'm not saying every American thinks that way...but a very large number of them do. That really troubles me.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:07 PM

Little Hawk, I agree with every one of your points in your last post. Humility as opposed to grandiosity is refreshing.

I will add, however, that Canada too may someday find its place in the glare of the sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:16 PM

It may. And if Canada then starts acting with hubris and grandiosity, I will not be pleased about it. I'm quite displeased with the present Canadian government in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:26 PM

The glare is here.

Canada is a top polluter.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: John P
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:31 PM

Little Hawk, it makes a BIG difference who gets elected on the day-to-day, we-need-to-go-on-living-our-lives level. Aside from the corporate ownership of most everybody, do you really not see any difference in policies -- and results -- between the Republicans and the Democrats?

Gay rights? Separation of church and state? Tax code? Environmental protection? Judicial appointments? Military budget? Foreign policy? Consumer protection? Banking regulation? Are these all the same no matter who is in office?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:42 PM

Little Hawk, I agree with much of what you say about what's wrong with the United States and what's right with Canada. But as far as that dreaded (shudder!) Socialism is concerned, I would go even further. I look at the Scandinavian countries and how well their social programs work. I am not a Socialist. But I look around the world and see what works for the benefit of a country's citizens at large and how well they get along with their neighbors on this planet, and I'm led to some inescapable conclusions.

But with all due respect, Little Hawk (not saying this specifically about you, but to all who continuously enunciate the viewpoint), "It makes no difference who you campaign for or vote for, the election has already been decided by THEM!!"—I regard as defeatism, nudged along by a mixture of laziness and cowardice.

"There's no use in my working hard, protesting and campaigning to try to bring about a better world because The Fix is In. I see it as a foregone conclusion. So I'll just crack open a beer, sit back, prop up my feet, and not strain myself."

Sorry, but that's the way I—and thank Zeus, lots of other people—look at it.

A few quotes by Margaret Mead ("a small group of people"), Thomas Jefferson ("an informed electorate'), and a few others. . . . Look 'em up.

One that I think is particularly germane is from that famous philosoper, Anonymous:   "The adage, 'you can't fight City Hall,' was started by—City Hall! Think about it!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:03 PM

"It makes no difference who you campaign for or vote for, the election has already been decided by THEM!!"

I don't think that anyone who posts on political threads actually believes this. I believe that it is repeated it ad nauseum because it is the point of view that garners the most attention. Look at the people who put this view point across here and yet contradict that point of view by speaking highly of major party officials from Hillary to Ron Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:35 PM

True, Jack. Talking to hear their heads rattle.

Nevertheless, there are people who buy that canard. I've run into a disturbing number of people who generally wouldn't vote for a Republican, did vote for Obama, but are disappointed in what he's been able to accomplish, and say, "Oh, hell! What's the use! I don't think I'm going to vote this time around."

Constantly repeating the idea that it's already decided just discourages these folks and leaves the decision to the Philistines. Not good!

If you REALLY don't like the way things are, MOVE YOUR ARSE! GET CRACKIN'!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:07 PM

If you dont understand how the game is played, all your efforts will be in-effectual.

Little Hawk is quite correct,the game is corrupt; so corrupt, that in my case a lifetime of protest has changed it hardly at all, in fact in many ways todays society is more crass and self serving than the communities of my youth.

I think what Hawk is saying is that, given the nature of this political and economic system, your work should be into the construction of something better.
A game where the result is not decided before hand and where the poor are not always the losers.

Your "head rattling" remarks are insulting and quite typical.
You may be short of intelligence, but not nerve!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:16 PM

I stand by what I say, Ake. Insult away if it makes you feel good.

And what I say INCLUDES changing the system. Perhaps not to one of your liking. Nevertheless.....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:20 PM

You think a Chicago Democrat is interested in changing the system?
Get real!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:51 PM

Yes, we need to work towards something far better. But I have never placed much hope in politics in a general sense. Politics is primarily about the use of raw power. It's a cold and ruthless game.

What I place much hope in is the individuals humans whom I know, in the good they can do, and in myself. I think each one of us has a profound potential to do wonders with our lives regardless of what the heck goes on in the world of politics.

As to whether I see any differences between the Republican and Democratic parties....of course! They are notably different, and that's exactly how the great political game works. The game is based upon dividing the public between 2 (or more) outwardly different teams...just like at a football game. The 2 teams must appear different, they must talk differently, they must attract separate groups of loyal fans, otherwise the drama of the game is lost.

I have always greatly preferred the outward appearance and style of the Democrats to that of the Republicans. I note, though, that once in office they both push pretty much the same basic agenda...while posturing in a different fashion. And I think that's because they've been bought out by the same huge monied interests.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should not vote. I vote. (Even though I think all the Canadian parties have sold out to basically the same interests.)

Every here and there is a genuinely honest politician with high ideals. When I see one, I back him up. Dennis Kucinich is one such. I don't believe Obama is...though I had hoped he might be back in 2008. He's either too weak to stand up to the elite...or he was theirs all along...and I suspect the latter is the more likely possibility.

But as I said, my real hopes in life have nothing to do with politics. They have to do with the best that there is inside each one of us...with our friends, our loved ones, our work, our highest ideals, and whatever inspires us. That's what I place my hopes upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 06:43 PM

So, Ake, you blanketly condemn any and all Democrats from the city of Chicago? Fie, man, fie! The depth of your analysis of Mr. Obama leaves quite a bit to be desired.

Let me be perfectly clear. I DO agree that the system is corrupt. I do NOT agree that the system is irreparable. I may eventually come to that conclusion, but not until some of us, such as the Coffee Party and the Occupy Movement, and things that are growing out of it, have taken a whack at it. The Occupy Movement has a lot of Right-Wing politicians running scared right now, and the Coffee Party is, so far, keeping a fairly low profile, but in line with Thomas Jefferson's remark about an informed electorate being essential to a viable democracy, they are informing themselves and will soon become quite active.

In the meantime, a lot of people, including some here on Mudcat, are running around like a bunch of headless chickens—and cackling insults at anyone who thinks that something might yet be done.

I am also aware that there are a few here who really won't be happy until blood runs in the streets. I, personally, would like to avoid that—if possible. Sorry if I'm working hard to deny you your pleasures (but not really!).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:46 PM

There have been huge changes in my lifetime all brought about by grassroots movements supporting politicians who support the change. In my youth, women worked as secretaries and teachers then they married and had babies. Mothers did not work. They stayed home and cooked and baked and cared for children and often drank heavily ans secretly. Working women were routinely accosted sexually. (It was the norm and I will be happy to substantiate that statement with my own experiences).
My first job with an employment agency allowed women to place women in jobs paying less that $10,000/year. If we got a listing or placed a candidtae in a $10,000+ position, we had to surrender it to a male counterpart BECAUSE "he had or would have a family to support".
Couples who "lived in sin" were shunned by family and friends. Interacial couples were either trailor park trash or pariahs. Interacial children were not tolerated in white society. Gays hid in closets. In fact, they married to provide themselves a "cover". Gay children and teens were bullied, beaten, forced into "appropriate" gender roles and shunned if they could not comply. Unwed mothers had their babies "away" and never saw them again.
There was a draft but you could "opt out" by staying in college or belonging to a union whose workers were critical to the war effort - an outright lie but it kept my brothers safe.
Now tell me - what corporations, millionaires, politicians forced these changes? They didn't. The power of the VOTE did. And the power of people working, dying, going to jail for a cause they believed in.
Did some or many jump on the bandwagon to take advantage of the newly found power or just plain cover their butts and save their jobs? Yes they did. So powerful men buy their support with money; powerful groups buy their support with votes.
Occupy Wall Street had little or no power because they do not have a clearly stated message. If and when they get their act together, state their purpose clearly, form their goals clearly and practically, have credible leaders stating those goals - then they will have the power to produce some real change. It will be interesting to (it has been interesting) to watch.
And while I am rambling - I wonder if the last few years of hardship hitting the middle and lower middle class, forcing them from their jobs and homes, will result in a clear and urgent attempt to repatriate the homeless. Now that they are no longer the drunks and druggies who plague our streets but actually Joe and Marge and their three children - what positive things could come of this?
Sorry for the ramble. A homeless man from Machias froze to death this week. I keep thinking about his mother.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:56 PM

Oh SINS... oh dear. I have tears in my eyes. That was not a ramble... not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:05 PM

"There have been huge changes in my lifetime all brought about by grassroots movements supporting politicians who support the change."

Exactly so, Sins!

I, too, have seen many changes that would never have happened had it not been for rank and file citizens getting sufficiently outraged at the way things were that they got together with others who felt as they did, and put sufficient pressure on our "leaders"—who, after all, are our employees!—to enact the necessary changes. And voted out those who were adamantly blocking progress.

Franklin D. Roosevelt did a great deal for the general populace, much to the irritation of those whom Bobert characterizes as "Boss Hogg." Folks came to him and told him what they felt should be done. His response in many cases was, "I agree with you. That should be done. Now—make me do it!" In short, give him the popular support that he needed to override those (i.e., Congress) who would try to block it.

This is what Obama needs. He inherited Bush's mess and Congress has been stonewalling his every attempt to put things right. One needs to let Obama know that a substantial number of citizens are behind what he's trying to do—not just piss and moan about him when it doesn't get done—and lean heavily on those Congress members who are hell-bent on trying to see that he fails.

As a citizen, these bozos are your employees. Tell them what you want them to do. If they don't do what you want, fire them and hire someone who will.

This is done at the ballot box. But one vote obviously isn't enough. Talk to people. Know the facts and educate. Persuade!

ONE WOMAN started the Coffee Party with something she posted on her Facebook page. A sufficient number of people responded, agreed with her, and the thing took off!

Who says it's futile?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:17 PM

If you think the election has already been decided by "them" - by all means - stay home on election day. Let the election be decided by those of us who think otherwise.

That's assuming you're even registered to vote in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:26 PM

Well, I find it interesting that if you listen to the BIG MEDIA talking heads they all are repeating the same BS BIG LIE: "Well, Obam will probably not get re-elected"... I mean, who is telling them to plant this seed???

Never mind... They are part of the Chamber of Commerce, corporate BS line...

So much for a "liberal media"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 12:11 AM

That's odd. Is that what they are saying, Bobert? My expectation would be more along the lines that he will get re-elected.

I fully agree that initiatives by highly motivated individuals can help to spark change. The changes I've seen in my lifetime have been profound...some for the better...some not...but many people had to change their minds before society changed.

The politicians and elite power-mongers tend to catch up much later to public desires for change which simply cannot be held back any longer...they finally yield to those changes...and this led to integration, the end of the Vietnam War, and other great victories for progressive forces in society.

I'm all for that.

What I am not for is the existing party-based system of divisive, destructive politics and the web of corrupt patronage and lobbying that sustains it. A way has to be found to break that and replace it with something far better. Election campaigns should be greatly shortened, at least in the USA. Campaign funding is desperately in need of reform. Corporate lobbying needs to be drastically curtailed. I'm not sure how any of that can be accomplished within the present system, because it is financially beneficial to the elected politicians NOT to change it.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:07 AM

"…..the existing party-based system of divisive, destructive politics and the web of corrupt patronage and lobbying that sustains it."

Little Hawk, the current system is no more corrupt than it was under Nixon, which, God knows, was corrupt enough. Yet, when enough people got together and demanded it, Nixon was forced—by the people—to resign, and a war was stopped.

"I'm not sure how any of that can be accomplished within the present system, because it is financially beneficial to the elected politicians NOT to change it."

That was true in Nixon's time as well

We've done it before. We can do it again. The same way.

That is, as long as the defeatists (encouraged by the Powers That Be) don't go around and manage to convince everyone that it IS futile.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:30 AM

"This is done at the ballot box. But one vote obviously isn't enough. Talk to people. Know the facts and educate. Persuade!"

Most people, when they become "educated" realise that the rules of the game preclude them from effecting any meaningful change.
Thereafter, most decide to join the side which always wins, they convince themselves that they are working for change, when in fact those people are the biggest impediment.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:31 AM

Well, yes, Don, if I may quote Commander Data from Star Trek...

"Resistance is NOT futile!"

Corrupt systems do fall eventually, whether by the people's will...or due to their own mismanagement and hubris...or by some other means. They fall because they lose touch with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 04:09 AM

It seems to me that the current Republican attacks on "vulture capitalism" (even though I wonder if there is any other sort) may help to polarise the "independent voters" against Romney (if he is then the presidential candidate) when the presidential election comes.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 09:26 AM

Only if the "independent voters" are morons- I thought the Repubs & their fellow travellers WORSHIPPED capitalism, free enterprise and "the invisible hand of the market".

Of course, with 40% of the U.S. population not "believing in" evolution, morons are pretty plentiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 10:09 AM

"It seems to me that the current Republican attacks on "vulture capitalism" (even though I wonder if there is any other sort) may help to polarise the "independent voters" against Romney (if he is then the presidential candidate) when the presidential election comes."

Romney was a real life Gordon Gecko from the first "Wall Street" film.

Romney has been promoting himself as someone who "knows how to create jobs" because of his experience at Bain. The Democrats had been planning all along to attack him on the basis that Bain Capital basically made its money by liquidating companies and destroying jobs.
The only difference is, when they use Republicans in the ads, the ads will get more credence.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:16 PM

That was a Gallup Poll, Greg. 40% said they believe in creationism. I would have to see how the questions were phrased to accept that 40% of the uS population does not accept any evidence of evolution. Many creationists believe that there was a creation AND an evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:27 PM

Greg F has proven he has noi interest in the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:32 PM

Seems truthful enough. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/20/40-of-americans-still-bel_n_799078.html

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: John P
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:10 PM

Akenaton, I have no hope of changing the system with my vote. Of course everything is owned and run by the rich. As a socialist, I am so far from most of my fellow citizens that I feel like I'm alone in a wasteland. I am painfully aware of how little influence me or anyone I know will ever have on the basic nature of our culture.

What my vote can get me is an administration that cares a little more about normal people, that wants to regulate (and tax!) the rich, that wants us to live according to our constitution, and that doesn't promote official discrimination against women, immigrants, people of color, and gay people.

This has been said here many times and no one has ever come up with a rational answer for it. So, Akenaton and Little Hawk, take your "nothing makes any difference" bullshit and shove it. Or you could answer the point without repeating what you've already said on the subject over and over and over again. You're both very boring as things stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:24 PM

John, you simply do not understand my position at all if you think that I think that "nothing makes any difference".

As for people "repeating what (they)'ve already said on the subject over and over and over again"....EVERYBODY does that. Everybody in the friggin' WORLD does that. On EVERY conceivable subject. Without fail. Yourself included. Everybody here repeats themselves because they are expressing their own accustomed thoughts and views, and their own thoughts and views are consistently and naturally organized according to their own unique view of things. So they repeat themselves, don't they? They'd have to stop being themselves and become someone else to avoid repeating themselves.

If you find my repetitive thoughts so boring, just don't read my posts anymore and save yourself the stress of all those unpleasant hostile reactions you seem to be experiencing.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:40 PM

I'm also basically a socialist, by the way, I always have been, and I DO vote for whichever candidates I have the most confidence in, with the hope that it might make some small improvement in things. I probably have a good deal more in common with you than you seem to think I do.

Where I differ most radically from most people is: They take a political party-based system for granted, having grown up in it, and they think that it is a necessary and integral part of a representative democracy.

I don't. I think the custom of having ANY political parties whatsoever is a political aberration, a huge mistake in human history, and that the political parties themselves are destroying genuinely representative democracy not only in the USA, but all across the world.

That's why I have little or no confidence in any of them.

But I still vote for the individual candidates I feel are the best at any given time...regardless of their party affiliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:41 PM

Little Hawk I think he does understand your position quite well enough. You do keep restating the same irrelevant position in relation to many different topics. Basically, you try to change the topic of most aspects of US federal politics from what ever specific topic is being discussed to "There is no difference between the parties, the fix is in."

Most of the the rest of us would rather talk about Romney, or corn subsidies or OWS or whatever the thread was started to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:03 PM

Fine. Let's all just talk about whatever interests us, okay? I don't particularly mind the fact that various people here see some political matters differently than I do, so why do they mind that I see some political matters differently than they do?

If we waited to be "happy" until everyone else who dared speak out   agreed with us about everything, we'd have a long wait, wouldn't we?

Regarding the OWS movement, I've always been strongly in favour of it. I like the fact that it's nonpartisan, and that it questions the ruling order.

Romney? I'm not impressed. He seems to be like a marshmallow...able to reshape himself to fit any desired aperture. :-D (but that's pretty common behaviour for politicians, come to think of it)

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:09 PM

Yesterday Ake said.."You think a Chicago Democrat is interested in changing the system?"

today JohnP said:.."Of course everything is owned and run by the rich."

Even though I see the point of both remarks...and to some extent see the germ of relevance in both of them... I am so weary of ANYONE trying to make serious points with such generalizations. As Don F. indicated, not all Chicago Democrats exhibit the 'classic' mentality of Chicago politics from the middle of the last century.

And ".. everything is owned and run by the rich." is simply inaccurate. Perhaps too MUCH is, and being rich can **tend** to make one feel like being rich is a birthright and helps them justify nefarious ways to stay rich and get richer.
   I SEE all that.. but real understanding of the system is hindered by relying on simplistic slogans and generalizations. It gets wise nods in a session of bitching, but barely scratches the surface of how money, politics, culture, education, media and various personalities interact to form the constantly changing dynamic we encounter when we try to cope...and when we decide how - or whether - to vote!

It simply takes more time than most people are able or willing to devote to sort out the wheat from the chaff in political ads and to listen to 27 different pundits declaim at length on THEIR interpretation.
Often it comes down to deciding which is "the lesser of two evils", even though the concept of 'evil' is never clearly thought out.

What we DO see is that the Republicans are engaged in an amazing game of "Whack-a-Mole" where all the moles AND all the observers have whacking mallets! No one seems to be making the point that they might all be right in their condemnations and characterizations of each other.
I expect that a major portion of the Democratic platform and campaign this year will be to clarify just how the 'problems' and disappointments that people feel did NOT begin with Obama.
There is some doubt these days just how a gen-you-wine honest, committed and competent president/leader CAN manage to juggle 23 balls, figure out what makes sense, gather money, give speeches, gain votes ....and get any sleep.

Gonna be interesting, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:24 PM

"... I think the custom of having ANY political parties whatsoever is a political aberration,"

Right! I tend to agree.. maybe we should find others who think that way and get organized! We could have a convention and field a candidate....

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:41 PM

100