BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB

Subject: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 11:24 AM

ATCMB = 'as the case may be'

Over the years I have found people in London and the UK in general to be increasingly rude and selfish when it comes to not saying 'please' and 'thank you.'

What is wrong with people? Is it due to the ear plugs that seem to be permanently stuffed into their ears and thereby distracting them from politeness and courtesy towards others?

What really riles me is when I am sitting in an aisle seat on the bus, train or even an aircraft; when the person sitting nearest the window wishes to go past they do NOT say 'please may I get past.' No. They simply stand and nudge me, or flick their fingers, or wave their hand, or worse simply push past. Then having pushed past anyway do they say 'thank you'? They do not.

Everyday I see bus drivers, and even some train drivers, wait for passengers running to catch said public transport. When these get on board do they thank the driver for waiting? They do not.

In London people on public transport love to stand by the doors thereby blocking easy exit or entrance. At times when I've said 'excuse me please, may we get out' I have nearly been physically assaulted for asking so. One guy took immediate offence and threatened to hit me because I'd even spoken to him. His ears were also stuffed with earpieces and he was completely blocking the exit to the bus.

This complete disregard towards others in what is increasingly a 'ME' society is also demonstrated everyday by

1/ people putting their bags on the seat beside them, I make it a point of always asking to seat on that seat - just to annoy them, or worse

2/ putting their filthy scummy shoes on the opposite seat.

This latter can be seen from tourists, stroppy yoofs, business men in suites, power dressed women, and scruffy manual labourers (many East Europeans who seem to delight in showing off their complete disregard towards their host country). But one of my few luxouries is to wear designer jeans that come at a price; and I strongly object to sitting on the dog shite and filth that others put on the seats that I have to use. AND PEOPLE EVEN PUT THEIR FEET UP ON SHITTY WET DAYS WHEN THEY'VE BEEN TRAIPSING THROUGH SCUMMY PUDDLES.

So in getting pi$$ed at the above attitudes am I being old fashioned. But why are people so bl**dy self-centred now-a-days. And why don't people say please and thank you when they want to get bye?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 11:32 AM

Well I'm very much afraid, that I agree with every word you post.
Sad isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: Megan L
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 11:41 AM

Sometimes I think we find what we look for Over Christmas I lost my voice while staying in a hotel, one of the young waiters would automatically go and fetch his coffee mug filled with hot water honey and lemon every time I entered the dining room.

Local children who know me will acknowledge me in the street even when they are with thier friends and dash ahead to open the cafe door for me.

Thier mums girls in thier thirties and early forties make space for me at thier table and include me in thier conversations and if the weather is bad they will run along to the shop or chemist for anything I need.

What really anoys me is when a younger person gives up thier seat or holds open a door for an older person and gets grunted at or ignored what do older people teach them with that behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 12:02 PM

"What really anoys me is when a younger person gives up thier seat or holds open a door for an older person and gets grunted at or ignored what do older people teach them with that behaviour."

Yes this happened to me yesterday. We were sitting downstairs in the 'old persons' seats on a London Bus. They were the only ones free. An even more elderly Seikh couple got on so we stood up and moved to the back in the aisle. They simply sat down without any acknowledgement to us whatsoever. A few of us looked at each other, but said nothing. I'm not being racist - I am simply reporting what happened.

But I too find older than average people sans earpieces equally as rude as the youngsters with earpieces.

I frequently get to the point when I loudly remark in the hearing of all on the bus (or train) - 'a please and thank you would be nice' as someone pushes past me - yet again.

Or if a bus driver has deliberately waited for someone running for the bus, when they get on board and ignore the driver, I say to them - loudly - 'I think the bus driver might like a thank you for waiting for you.' Usually they then make the effort to thank the driver!!

But if I'm in an aisle seat and someone wants to push past I sometimes sit there and make them wait. Luckily I can play games with my phone so I can easily pretend to ignore them. When he/she has started to get a bit agitated at my lack of movement and they then start digging me in the shoulder or arm for me to move, I say 'excuse me, what was that for.' Then they say 'I want to get past.' 'I then say 'oh that's what you want, why didn't to say something like 'please'.' Then they push past. And then I say 'hmm, a thank you would be nice.' If they still ignore me I remark 'oh well, not a thank you then.'

He he. I do remember one day that a young woman (with ears stuffed) was so intent on pushing past me without a word or an acknowledgement that I sat firm. Eventually the doors closed and she missed her stop. Am I a b'stard or what?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 01:09 PM

I'm very much a 'matriarch elephant' and try to being about some manners as I go about the place. BUT nowadays, in a big city you risk being stabbed, punched to the ground or attacked in some other way if you so much dare to frown. My dear husband is the epitome of politeness and will insist on holding doors open in shops, but streams of folk push through with no thank you and he could end up standing there all day like a twit. I often say loudly "And...thank you!" but I only get glared at. I've also stopped him giving up his seat on a bus, nobody cares or acknowledges it. It's only in the village here that people are absolute dears. A lesson to be learned? Community spirit is important!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 01:50 PM

I still say P and TY. I can't help what others do.

I have a face that looks like 100 miles of bad road and a glance that I've developed which implies that "I'm happy to let it go or deal with it now, your choice" without resorting to words. Course, I smile lots so that helps.

I have only twice that I recall ever tapped someone on the shoulder so I could exit a bus or metro. I tried 'pardon me' and 'excuse me' in both English and French. One fellow moved and gave a look that suggested he hadn't heard me. The other let me through after I said, "Kindly let me by or you'll be leaving the train (subway) with me." Of course, when he did move I thanked him. Didn't want him feeling everyone was a rude as he.

Some people are preoccupied, some hard of hearing, some tired and others just plain wankers. C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 02:38 PM

Megan... lovely to hear that some peeps in Orkney are nice folk. Of course, already knew you are one.

There are sooo many rude peeps around here. When someone darts in front of my 85 year old nearly blind mother and then smiles and says sorry, I REALLY WANNA say, "Really? Then don't do again. You'll be old someday." But, Mum's got a cane and I put an ice-picky-riggin on it. That would hurt!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 03:00 PM

The following remarks are not meant to be personal concerning any of the above posters, including the OP.

Like Megan, I think we get what we look for, too or, maybe what we expect. It is easier to go along with the mass consciousness of watching for things which are wrong/bad/etc. than to make the effort to look for the good and make note of it. A good balance can be difficult. Granted in larger cities it can be a challenge.

We do a lot of driving out here in the West and I can say that drivers seem to be much ruder than they used to be. One really has to practice defensive driving. In stores, etc. most people here are at least somewhat polite, still. Though, if I hold a door for someone and they don't say anything, esp. if they are *pushy*, I will say "You're welcome" as they pass by.

As for the elderly Sikh couple on the bus, my first thought was maybe because of the general anti-immigrant climate I've been reading about, they feel safer not speaking to anyone? Just a thought, meaning no offence to you personally.

My theory is that the more we all continue to be polite, the more likely it will increase.:-) My grandson has learned wonderful manners, not just from his granny, but also at home and school. There is hope for the next generation, imo.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 03:07 PM

"My theory is that the more we all continue to be polite, the more likely it will increase..."

I hope so, kat. Worth a shot.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 03:14 PM

Why thank you, Sir Gnu!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: Megan L
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 03:17 PM

:) we could start a mudcat revolution be nice to people heck it may even go panddemic.

My mum taught me if you throw a pebble in a pond you may not always see where the ripples touch or the effect they have so throw good pebbles

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 03:27 PM

"throw good pebbles"

Wise words.

But, I gotta say, I'd like to throw big pebbles at some of the rude twits that... aggghhhh... it's hard to stifle myself. I am only 54 years old. I MAY learn. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: Megan L
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 03:33 PM

Weel if ye dinny lad yer nae that big nor that ugly that granny canny pit ye ower her knee. :)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 06:28 PM

I live in Sheffield, where almost everyone says "thank you" or "ta" to the bus driver when he gives them their ticket -- as well as when they get off the bus. I'm sorry to report that I see bus drivers NOT waiting for people much more often than they do wait; when they do, the person always says thank you. And I always get a "thank you" or at least a nod & a smile when I hold the door for someone.

Sounds like it has a lot to do with the size of the city you live in...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 06:33 PM

"Weel if ye dinny lad yer nae that big nor that ugly that granny canny pit ye ower her knee. :)"

Why Gnu? Why not me?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 07:52 PM

I'm sure granny'd no have a problem...if she's still got two knees!:-)

YY, I think you are right.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 08:16 PM

One knee equals two feet, according to John Madden. Yankee football reference. Ignore.

9... put yersel in Granny Dom's hands at yer own peril. Ye have been warned.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: JennieG
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 09:18 PM

We (Himself and I) have noticed, since moving in May 2010 to a country town, that folk are much more polite here than they were in Sydney. Perhaps it's harder to be rude to someone you may know, or who is known to your family? We have noted in particular that any young folk we have been served by in shops, or had any dealings with at all, are very helpful and courteous....and they don't seem to have the 'attitude' that big city kids have. They are even nice enough to chuckle at our jokes.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 01:30 AM

It is nice if a bus or train driver waits for you, and annoying if he or she does not, but I try to have a lively sense of the tradeoffs involved in the decision to do that. Busses have schedules, and on average they will give better service if they stick to them. (There is a startling theorem that if busses arrive randomly, the average wait for one will be twice as long as if the same number per day arrive on a strict, even schedule.) Consider also that a driver saves you a 20-min wait by waiting 10 s for you will be delaying (say) 120 passengers already on the bus by 10 s each, thereby wasting a total of 20 min of their time. It all adds up. Finally, suppose, having waited for you, the driver sees another customer scurrying along the platform -- where is he supposed to draw the line? I'm glad I don't have that job.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: paula t
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 09:40 AM

I think it is up to us all to set an example.I think we do our best to encourage good manners in schools but all too often I have watched adults being extremely rude towards children and teenagers- which is hardly a good example!

Being polite costs nothing, and can even be an effective "weapon" to use against someone who has been rude or inconsiderate. I've often had a red- faced ,or even friendly, apology from someone who has been on the receiving end of a pleasant smile and a thank-you when they clearly haven't deserved it!It makes you feel good too! It's very hard to be aggressive towards someone who you have clearly inconvenienced or been rude to but has still given you a friendly smile.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: Megan L
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 02:54 PM

999 you know dear that granny is always availlable for friends but the queue around that area is getting rather long after the attempted cruise earlier in the year when folk were trying to leed poor Kendal astray :)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 01:50 PM

The bus has to leave on time but it cannot leave early. Old transporation engineering saying.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 11:38 AM

People used to be impressed that my kids said please and thank you as appropriate. I was always surprised that they thought it worth mentioning...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 07:47 AM

I still haven't received any 'thank yous' from my two nieces or my neighbour's children for their Christmas presents. I was trained by my parents to write nice letters for presents received. Every year I vow not to give them any more presents, but each Christmas I relent. Do you think I'd be justified in stopping? It does hurt my feelings to be ignored like that. (Replies on a postcard please...)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 08:32 AM

I only use buses during the day at off-peak times.

Passengers [inc me] always thank the driver, especially when alighting

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 09:09 AM

Eliza ~~ Yes; don't give any more ~ & write a note to their parents to tell them why.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: Elmore
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 09:11 AM

One day in Georgia I held the door for a black woman as I was leaving a restaurant.She thanked me, of course.Some knuckle-dragging bystander commented "You're lucky she thanked you. THEY usually don't." Annoyed the Hell out of me. Till then I had been enjoying the cultural diversity, of which we have very little in my New Hampshire town.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:16 AM

Thank you MtheGM. But my husband is laughing and saying "I know you! You'll be wrapping their prezzies again next year!" I get into the Christmas Spirit, and feel terribly mean standing on principles. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: Megan L
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:39 AM

The question to ask yourself is "Am I giving these presents or doing this thing to show how good I am and have praise heaped on me? Or am i doing it because it is what I want to do?" We cannot be responsible for the actions of others but we can try to make sure we act right.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 11:47 AM

Well, Eliza ~~ just let me say "Thank you - for being such a nice kind loving person!"

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 02:04 PM

...even if some people might think you are an old softy...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 02:39 PM

LOL! Old and soft eh, MtheGM? Soft in the head I expect. Megan, I don't exactly have 'praise heaped on me' as the little blighters don't even contact me! I just feel that they might enjoy the little bits and pieces I give them. Also, I don't want to upset my sister, she's a widow with probs of her own, and if I blanked her daughters, she'd be v cross. She's a bossy old sod at the best of times, my sister! It's true though, one should examine ones motives at times like this. I'll have a good think next Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 03:43 PM

Then she should be a bit bossier with her daughters about the necessity of thank-you letters, shouldn't she? Seriously!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 04:18 PM

I know, MtheGM, you're quite right. And she's an example of how parents spoil their offspring. I don't believe one is doing one's kids any favours by not being a bit strict with them when necessary. My sis has spoiled these girls, perhaps because their father died when they were babies. But love involves being tough at times. I'm a bit of a stickler when it comes to good manners, but nowadays not everyone shares that view. Times change, and it's a bit 'old fogeyish' not to accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 05:47 PM

Oh, as to that, Eliza: if I am not the world's very oldest fogey, I must be somewhere up there in the Top Ten or so...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: JennieG
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 01:10 AM

Eliza - what about including a little packet of note cards and a few stamps in the next parcel? The girls might get the hint......at least they won't be able to say they didn't have the materials to send a note........

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 11:12 AM

A good idea Jennie! They'd have no excuse then! MtheGM, Perhaps us 'old fogeys' are the guardians of traditional values? But we have to do it sensitively and with grace. When I was young I can remember being fed up with 'old' people carping on about the Youth of Today etc. I can see myself carping on just like them nowadays!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 11:35 AM

As to please and thank you, when my kids were growing up I simply affected not to hear them unless I heard a "please", and revoked a positive answer if there were no audible "thank you".

It worked a treat and both my offspring now use it to good effect on the grandchildren, as do I when occasion demands.

It only takes a few days to get the message across, followed by the very occasional reminder when needed.

I once successfully used it on a really exceptionally pig ignorant employer (although I did have to explain to him WHY I didn't "hear" him). To give him his due, he took it well and we are still friends.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 01:51 PM

Having had countless hundreds of pupils through my hands over the years, it took only one explanation of my requirements as to please and thank you on the first day of term. Afterwards, an 'old-fashioned look' sufficed to prompt the good manners. Children know perfectly well what's required, but you need to insist on it, and as you say, Don, refuse to accept anything less. I also had little rules about "Eh?", "Whassat?" and "Dunno" etc. They got the idea pretty quickly. In fact, if a new pupil arrived mid-term and committed one of these faux-pas, there would be an audible gasp from the class. Why can't parents do the same? It isn't difficult surely?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: paula t
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 02:38 PM

Absolutely, Eliza. Make the ground rules very clear and then live by them.I speak to the children in a respectful way and expect the same in return. I also expect children to be well mannered when they speak to each other and also to their parents. If I hear a child being rude to a parent within school I always deal with it immediately.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 03:01 AM

True, there are many people now brought up without respect, so what is second nature to me, such as ladies first and minding my Ps & Qs isn't to many now.

Whether instinctive good manners means more respect than not saying / doing respectful platitudes and not doing them means lack of respect is more complicated.

I doubt whether a McDonalds burger flipper cares whether you have a nice day or not, and the knee jerk way some of them read out their corporate script with total lack of sincerity is nothing short of an art form.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Please' and 'Thank you' - or not ATCMB
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 05:43 AM

Actually, I don't feel that total sincerity is essential in public situations. You may not care two hoots whether someone excuses you or not, but if you inadvertantly bump into them for example, you automatically say "Excuse me" because it's the accepted, socially-required custom. If you are writing a thank-you note, you may in fact have loathed the gift, but one still (in theory!) courteously thanks the giver because that's how our social system works. (Or did!) These small polite ways are the oil which keeps human contact running smoothly. Without them, people become abrasive and edgy. We live IN society and therefore we should abide by the expected and customary manners. Folk now seem to be terribly fraught and aggressive; I wonder if a return to polite good manners might defuse some of this pent-up anger and tension?