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Public liability insurance UK

Tig 17 Mar 12 - 02:58 PM
Howard Jones 17 Mar 12 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Ed 17 Mar 12 - 04:58 PM
selby 17 Mar 12 - 05:51 PM
Tig 17 Mar 12 - 06:55 PM
Peter C 18 Mar 12 - 01:02 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Mar 12 - 05:09 PM
GUEST 18 Mar 12 - 06:14 PM
matt milton 18 Mar 12 - 07:06 PM
matt milton 18 Mar 12 - 07:18 PM
Howard Jones 19 Mar 12 - 05:08 AM
matt milton 19 Mar 12 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,PeterC 19 Mar 12 - 06:28 AM
Leadfingers 19 Mar 12 - 06:33 AM
matt milton 19 Mar 12 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,PeterC 19 Mar 12 - 06:50 AM
matt milton 19 Mar 12 - 06:54 AM
Howard Jones 19 Mar 12 - 07:17 AM
matt milton 19 Mar 12 - 07:49 AM
Tig 19 Mar 12 - 09:23 AM
Howard Jones 19 Mar 12 - 09:26 AM
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Subject: Public liability insurance UK
From: Tig
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 02:58 PM

I have now got a range of handmade jewellery including fused glass pendants which I would like to take out to festivals/craft fairs. However since we last had a stall I am now being asked to provide a Public Liability Insurance Certificate before they will accept me.

Two Questions 1. Why when I never needed one before?

             2. Does anyone know where I can get some at a reasonable
                price? None of the stuff on the stall is very
                expensive and I only want to go out a few weekends.

Two places I've tried on the internet don't want to know/can't give me a quote.

If anyone has experience of this it would be very helpful.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:52 PM

1) You need public liability insurance in case someone at the craft fair is injured by you. Before you say this couldn't happen, never underestimate people's stupidity or ability to trip over things. It's wise to have it whether or not you're asked for it. The craft

The price of the stuff on the stall is irrelevant, you're insuring against being sued for injury. The craft fair wants to make sure you are covered so they don't get sued instead.

2) An insurance broker should be able to sort you out. If you have household insurance you may find that gives you cover.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:58 PM

Joining EFDSS is going to be your best bet. Cover is included in the membership.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: selby
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:51 PM

Tig
Can I give you a scenario the vast majority of people are honest but...............
I have picked up a piece of your glass it smashes in between my clumsy fingers I have a cut to my finger and cannot go to work for 2 weeks because of the severe cut you have given me with faulty goods I am now claiming £4000 for lost earnings and £20000 to the trauma and stress you have caused me.Please make sure you get it a few pounds can save you lots. Best of luck with the new stall
Keith


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: Tig
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 06:55 PM

I accept the fact that in these days of litigation I need it - but trying to actually FIND it seems to be a different matter. I was advised by the nice Meercat to go to Market Traders Federation but obviously didn't put the answers they wanted - another 'no quote' Grrrrr


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: Peter C
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 01:02 PM

Musicians Insurance Services of Matlock I have found to be very helpful - http://www.musiciansinsurance.co.uk/ - EFDSS membership does provide cover for musical performances by members, but you have to inform them of every event. Whether it covers market trading is another question!


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:09 PM

What about the Musicians Union?


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:14 PM

Why can't these public events provide group umbrella liability cover
that individual small crafts traders like yourself
can pay a nominal fee to buy into per fair/festival ?


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: matt milton
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:06 PM

"Joining EFDSS is going to be your best bet. Cover is included in the membership."

That's what it says on the website, but it wasn't, I was told, sufficient for when I wanted to hire a small bar for a concert. Apparently EFDSS will not suffice as public liability insurance if you want to put on a gig in the downstairs bar of, ahem... Cecil Sharp House.

I was informed that EFDSS membership would not be sufficient because it did not cover me for public liability insurance in their bar "as a promoter".

I don't understand what weird insurance cover the EFDSS have in their building - seems quite whimsical to me. I mean, Sharps Folk Club meets in that very room every single Tuesday night - a club to which absolutely anyone can turn up to, it isn't members only.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: matt milton
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:18 PM

"EFDSS membership does provide cover for musical performances by members, but you have to inform them of every event"

I'd love to have this clarified. It's the "public" part I don't really understand.

Does the above mean that, were you to injure yourself in the course of playing a gig, your EFDSS membership would entitle you to claim damages?

Or does it mean that if anyone injures yourself at a gig you are playing at, and decides it is your fault, EFDSS membership would cover you against their damages?

Or does it mean something entirely different?


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:08 AM

Public liability is third party insurance, just as you have for your car. It doesn't protect you against injuries you may suffer yourself.

If someone is injured as a consequence of your negligence, then you are liable, insured or not. Having PLI protects you against bankruptcy, and ensures that the injured party gets paid compensation they are entitled to.

The venue, and the promoters of the craft fair, will have their own PLI, but that only covers their own liability. That's why they want to check that you have your own cover.

The OP wants to display at a number of craft fairs, so they need PLI for all of these, whether or not it's asked for. I can't understand the difficulty, since googling "public liability insurance" throws up plenty of brokers aiming at small businesses (which is what this is)


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: matt milton
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:17 AM

"If someone is injured as a consequence of your negligence, then you are liable, insured or not. Having PLI protects you against bankruptcy, and ensures that the injured party gets paid compensation they are entitled to.

The venue, and the promoters of the craft fair, will have their own PLI, but that only covers their own liability. That's why they want to check that you have your own cover."

I understand the first part. But not (in practice) the second.

If joining the EFDSS grants me some kind of PLI, but it is not sufficient to put on a small event in a small room in a building owned by the EFDSS (who also have their own PLI!) then it rather begs the question "just what exactly DOES that PLI cover?"

Seems to be a bit useless. It's only in the organizing/promotional role that considerations of negligence/liability would arise! if you're just a musician playing at a gig, in a non-organizing capacity, there's nothing you can be negligent about in the first place.

It also begs a couple of other tangential questions, such as... why is it of any concern to a venue, or a craft fair, whether a musician or an exhibitor has PLI or not? It's utterly immaterial to them if somebody else gets sued as a result of that somebody else's negligence.

Especially when you consider the fact that on the rare occasions people DO get injured at concert venues, it is almost never the fault of the musician playing - it's generally things like access to exits, stairs etc. The suspicious part of me wonders whether a venue or an event that requires PLI on the part of musicians/exhibitors is doing so because, if anything were to go wrong, they would be doing their damnedest to pin it on anyone but themselves, and not lose a no-claims bonus.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:28 AM

I had to get insurance for a one off event once and it was very difficult to find a provider at that would cover a single event at a sensible price. I suspect that the OP's problem is that the venue's insurers have started demanding certificates from individual stallholders. Certainly it isn't an issue that I have heard of before in this field.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:33 AM

EFDSS , Musicians Union and Equity have Public Liability Insurance for members, , but , I think , ONLY as performers , and NOT as promoters .


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: matt milton
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:40 AM

well I can see that if you're running a business, and you intend to display at 30+ craft fairs a year, it could be worth buying an annual public liability insurance.

But, like Peter above, I've looked into it, and it's not cheap. The cheapest I've found for single-event PLI is £80, which rules out my hiring the CSH bar. If I were a professional promoter of music events, I'd probably join the Musicians Union (which costs around £170 per year).

the stupid thing about hire of the CSH bar is that it is appealingly cheap for a night – £60. But as soon as you factor in the 80 quid PLI, you're immediately better off hiring any number of other London venues at the £100-a-night level.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:50 AM

You will probably find that the other venues don't cover you on their insurance either, they just don't demand proof of yours.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: matt milton
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:54 AM

yes, I'm sure. But I've already put on a fair few gigs in my time without, surprise surprise, anyone dying. As I said above, the chances of someone injuring themselves at a venue and it being my fault - as opposed to the venue's - are marginal.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 07:17 AM

You'd have to check with the EFDSS, but I suspect that if you're an individual member it only covers you as in individual dancer or musician, not as a promoter. Organisations can join and get cover for their activities - I'm involved with Poynton Ceilidhs which gets PLI through EFDSS in this way.

It's easy to assume you won't be liable, but accidents happen. As a musician, someone may trip over your instrument case and get hurt. It's not just personal injury, but damage. I was once in a session when I tripped over an instrument case coming back from the bar and caused irreparable damage to someone else's expensive instrument.

As a promoter, you may be held responsible for health and safety issues surrounding how the event is run, as opposed to H&S surrounding the fabric of the venue.

However these things are seldom clear-cut, and in the event of a claim a court may hold that liability is shared. The venue wants to make sure that you are covered for your share.

Just because it's "folk", or because you're doing it as a hobby or on a not-for-profit basis, doesn't mean you're not liable. Just because you don't have PLI doesn't mean you aren't liable, it just means you aren't protected.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: matt milton
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 07:49 AM

I know all that, but frankly, if EFDSS's insurance only covers me "as a musician" it's bloody useless to me. Because, while accidents happen, they've never yet happened to me, and I have confidence in my own abilities and nous as a sensible, mature, organised person that it is highly unlikely to. Same way I don't have life insurance.

Over-cautious people will continue to wag their fingers and say their "what ifs?". Meanwhile, in the real world, the CSH bar loses out on bookings, and rock venues and pub function rooms continue to put on a million gigs a year at which nobody dies and sensible people either pay (or don't) for what gets broken.

Anyway, if CSH has (as I presume they must do) PLI for their own events, surely it'd make more business sense for them to just make sure an indemnified member of staff is on the door for the event?! So long as it costs less than the cost of a one-off license for an event (ie less than £80), it could just be factored into hire-cost. They could just pay a member of staff for the not-exactly-onerous task of being in a room while a gig was on.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: Tig
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:23 AM

Sure if you put Public Liability Insurance in your search engine you get lots of hits. The problem then comes deciding just what your business is - don't forget mine is more of a hobby - and when and where you will need it for.

I've found a couple of quotes now but I would have been far happier if the organisers of the craft fairs/whatever at the festivals took out an overall insurance which they need anyway and I paid towards it. Quotes are coming out expensive........maybe I should stick to selling to friends or hit ebay.

This litigatious state of affairs is what is cutting down on what used to be 'special' about such things - if you haven't a big turnover insurance and larger stall fees are wiping out any chance of profit for unusual or smaller stalls.

BTW Don't worry - if I decide to do any I'll make sure I get it. I used to carry £3 million PLI when I was an aromatherapist.


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Subject: RE: Public liability insurance UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:26 AM

I'm not an expert on insurance, but I suspect the problem is that the organisers won't be able to get insurance for someone else's (ie the exhibitors') liability.


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Mudcat time: 19 September 10:43 PM EDT

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