BS: Killed for being black? Florida today

Subject: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:33 PM

This is an unashamed cut and paste from PZ Myers' excellent blog, Pharyngula. I don't know if it's true; in fact I really hope it's not. But I'd like comments from American catters, especially those of the law/n/order tendency.

Trayvon Martin went to a convenience store in his family's neighborhood to buy some candy. He was 17. He was unarmed. He was black.

George Zimmerman, a self-appointed "neighborhood watch leader", called the police to report a "suspicious person"; he was told not to confront him, but somehow in the next few minutes Zimmerman got out there and shot and murdered Trayvon Martin. The puffed-up coward Zimmerman grabbed his gun, confronted a teenager carrying nothing but a bag of Skittles, and murdered him. There is no possible excuse, no way that there could be some exculpatory fact to justify his actions: Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun and on a mission of self-inflated importance to defend his neighborhood (which was also Martin's neighborhood) from suspicious young black men.

What do you think happened next, when the police arrived on the scene and found Zimmerman with a smoking gun, who immediately admitted to gunning Trayvon Martin down?

Nothing.

Zimmerman is still free. It's been two weeks; no action is being taken. The Florida district attorney is even dragging his heels about deciding to investigate the murder, and claiming that Zimmerman was a pillar of the community.

Sign the petition. Tell racist goddamned Florida they can't just ignore a vigilante who murders young black people.

It gets worse. Recordings of 911 calls on the night of the murder are available: Martin was screaming for help and begging for his life when Zimmerman gunned him down. And apparently what sent Zimmerman on his macho crusade to stop a suspicious suspect was that Martin was running away.

Why hasn't he been arrested?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:37 PM

The story is basically true... there was one stupid vigilante who made a BIG mistake, and one sheriff who didn't want to arrest a 'good guy' who claimed 'self-defense'......

I rather expect other forces will change the situation...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:43 PM

Welcome to Jim Crow's America...

Been going on since 1619...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:44 PM

All together now: "Guns don't kill people...."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:50 PM

Nuts kill people.

So, keep the guns away from the nuts. That's YOUR job. But don't tell me I can't defend myself with a weapon of any kind. That is just nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 06:00 PM

"If all you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything you see as a nail."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 06:23 PM

For nuts I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:09 PM

Very tragic.

What Bill D said.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:15 PM

"Nuts" is not a simple, clear definition. It is a continuum, with "totally barmy" at one end and "slightly odd" at another. Trouble is, they will sell guns to anyone who has not been convicted of being "totally barmy" or being a felon..........and at many gun shows, they don't even check!

Evidently, this vigilante was just on the "slightly odd" end, and had not been in any 'official' trouble... he just had an attitude towards 'black boys wandering around after dark'.

NOW he will be considered further down the continuum of 'nutness'....which does little for the family of the dead kid.

Do you know anyone who owns ...or wishes to own... guns, who would call themselves a 'dangerous nut'?

The standard answer in these cases is: "I felt threatened!" or "He had something in his hand that looked like a gun, and he made a motion!"....and obviously, young black boys can't be trusted...even when all they have is a bag of Skittles!

This semi-nut was TOLD by the police dispatcher NOT to follow or confront the kid! But he HAD a gun, and he, by golly, was gonna defend the neighborhood and himself.... he had programmed himself to find trouble!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:30 PM

This may not seem related to many, but I tend to not understand the world in simple terms. My 18 year old son who is a senior in high school is off on a 4 day exertion to Boston, MA for a Parkour Jam. It is 12 hour drive from Durham, NC. He is taking his car and traveling with two college students from Duke, both African-American kids from the Northeast. Parents have to let go, but I confess to some anxiety about this first, long trip when the car can break down or the kids get lost, etc. I am also aware of some measure of increased anxiety that the kids might face increased risk of "targeting" if they drive too fast or have a breakdown, or otherwise need help or call attention to themselves, simply because two of them are African-American. Now mind you, I live in the South. I don't happen to think there is any more racism in the South than there is in the North, but I do think racism in the North or in urban areas is more unconscious, and therefore possibly more dangerous and unpredictable.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:37 PM

I am gonna leave now. This story is tragic and to turn it into a debate about gun ownership rather than what it should be about is futile and somewhat offensive to the OP, IMO. gnightgnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:46 PM

Janie... the problem is with those who DO see the world in simple terms and who can't wrap their little minds around the difference between 'reasonable care' and **profiling**.... and those who are profiled unfairly often get tired of being stopped and questioned- they respond- which makes the 'nuts with guns' even more sure hey have reason to 'suspect' something. And so it goes... round & round.

I personally think there IS more actual racism in the south...but that may just be a matter of opinion..or semantics.

The awkward thing about profiling..(which is no doubt what the vigilante did)... is that it has a certain value at times. The problem is with those who see only 'either/or' cases and can't use judgment.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:50 PM

Gnu, I think an arguement can be made that this terrible event is as much about gun ownership as it is about racism.

I think this is about the danger of personally unexamined assumptions that people make every day. The danger of unconscious living.

All I know is what I read in the news reports. Now, let me acknowledge that as a psychotherapist I tend not to view the choices people make about their behaviors and choices in simple terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:46 AM

We here in UK remember the iniquitous Emmett Till case of 1955, and others of the same sort from way back then. We had hoped that such incidents were in the past; but alas it seems not so.

Profound sympathies.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:46 AM

http://www.razorcake.org/columns/the-fbi-report-on-the-murder-of-emmett-till-update-2007?gclid=CJXZn6qH8K4CFSEntAodZQlEKQ

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:47 AM

PS, I don't remember it, but I was 7 when it happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:20 AM

I'm not offended gnu- I really want to know people's thought processes in a society that is so like my own, yet in some ways so different. We certainly have racism in the UK, and would-be vigilantes too (if you follow UK stuff, you might have heard of the English Defence League). But most people don't have guns. There have been some high profile cases over the years- a farmer shot and killed a burglar, and was jailed for murder, more recently a shopkeeper stabbed a robber and was not proceeded against. But this latter was after investigation, during which he was held in custody. In another similar case a burglar was stabbed with a breadknife after a gang broke into an occupied house. Similarly, the householder was arrested while investigations took place.

The shock of the Florida case to me is that the sole grounds for suspicion seems to have been that the young man was black.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:44 AM

Petition organised by Trayvon's parents is also on here, along with other information..Over 2,500 people on the page so far, help to spread it out much further....

'Justice for Trayvon Martin' - Facebook page

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 11:19 AM

On the face of it it seems quite a bizarre and extreme case (I don't think the killer was a "little odd" but a paranoid bigot with a gun and a vastly inflated sense of his personal importance) - until you hear of similar "brush it under the carpet" decisions from within the same police dept. The terrible action of one gun nut is one thing, while the (non) actions of the police dept. in response to that incident and others like it are another, which potentially require further investigation into how they handle race related crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:14 PM

Some things ain't changed in sixty years. Old saw from back then: Two men of colour were struck by a town mayor (who was White) while he was out for a drive. One fellow crashed through the windshield and the other flew 65' onto the grassy side of the road. When the police arrived, they arrested one for breaking and entering and the other for leaving the scene of an accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:28 PM

I heard that local law said they did not have enough evidence due to the lack of evidence. But it is pretty clear that the incident did not happen on Zimmerman's property, so the "self defense" claim is pretty bogus.

My guess is that there are no criminal charges but that someone sues on behalf of the family and gets a large judgement for wrongful death. But since Zimmerman is only 28 and aspires to be a cop, there won't be much money to go after.

In an ideal and just society Zummerman in future would be banned from carrying assembled and loaded fire arms beyond his own property. I don't think that will happen in south Florida.


Bill,

In my experience, there is certainly not more racism in the South than the North. I travel all over the South. It is just not that apparent. In the North, in Ohio, when I lived there, and in the Northeast when I have visited. I saw many more examples of racism.

Where you live, which is more South than North, MD and VA were both slave states at the time of the civil war, I have also seen few signs of racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lizzie
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:22 PM

>>>"In an ideal and just society Zummerman in future would be banned from carrying assembled and loaded fire arms beyond his own property. I don't think that will happen in south Florida."<<<

Huh?????

In my kind of 'ideal society' he'd be banged up for the next 25 years for murder and racism and banned from EVER carrying ANY weapon again, being told that if he did so he'd be banged up for the next 25 years to follow...

Or...better still, I'd just hand him over to this young lad's parents and let them deal out the justice!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:29 PM

In England, our Neighbourhood Watch guys and gals carry pens, badges, window stickers and smiles...

WTF does the USA not ban guns???

I find it deeply disturbing that folks wander round with guns..it's madness...total madness.

WHY would a neighbourhood watch person be allowed to carry a gun?

Yeesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:56 PM

I find the alleged absence of evidence hard to credit - where did the vigilante's gun go and the bullets in the youth?

The USA needs severely to take stock of who uses guns to kill more people? Criminals (and vigilantes and "people who are only defending themselves" (from a boy running away down a public road) or those genuinely defending themselves on their own property or from an advancing treat (oh, and genuine public servant law officers)?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:14 PM

1. A neighborhood watch program here in the "Wild West" consists of volunteers driving around in marked ex-police cars (and they are OLD!), checking your house when you're out of town.

2. The neighbors also keep an eye on each other -- carrying cell phones. Anyone found with a firearm is kicked off the patrol -- these aren't cops. A problem is called in and a regular officer dispatched.

3. It is strongly suggested that Watchers use a camera (cell phone or otherwise) to document an incident. This type of "shooting" is fully justified.

4. This a very ethnically diverse community, containing folks of Greek, Irish, African, Polynesian, Japanese, Thai, Chinese, German, Hispanic, English, Maori, and other descents. They are judged not on their ethnicity but on their abilities -- and yes, there are far more than a few inter-racial couples here. No, it's not perfect but it's a helluva lot better than I've seen in London, Paris, Bordeaux, DC, LA, Boston, Chicago, or Dublin (to name a few).

But then, like I say, this is The Wild West (we have rodeos, Indians, and everything). The land where Nate Love discovered bulldogging and one-third of the Top Hands were Black or Indian, not White. The country where nearly every town, from Dodge City to Denver, banned the carrying of firearms.

Ah, well.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:28 AM

I was expecting someone to have made the connection between Zimmmerman , and Zantsinger earlier in the thread ! Doi we have another erstwhile Bob Dylan to write the song ? The Lonesome Death of Trayvon Martin ?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:41 AM

With enough pressure, the Justice dept. will step in.

Why was this nut case allowed to be on the street with a weapon anyway? His history should help put him away.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:52 AM

Sounds like something not so far from home in terms of aftermath.


Lawrence case police corruption

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:02 AM

This happens in every single country in the world. The difference between this and Rwanda, Germany, Kosovo, Ireland, Soviet Union, etc. is one of scale only.

A rabbi and three children were gunned down in Toulouse today by a drive-by shooting from a motorcycle. It was not the first such.

I learned long ago that inside we're all red.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:16 AM

One guy had a gun...

The other didn't and was on his way to visit a neighbor of the first guy..

Guess who is dead???

But this entire episode is a sad commentary on a society obsessed with fear, hate and mis-understanding... And guess who is spending billion$$$ to keep it that way... There is no accident here... This will happen over and over until until we get back to a society that actually goes beyond "talking the talk" about diversity and appreciating each others cultural differences and walks away from the tools being used on us everyday by the masters of division...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: saulgoldie
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:18 AM

Yes, Rap, "We All Bleed Red" (recent song on the country station)

It is tragic, of course that this happened. But I think this will focus the country's attention on the not-so-subtle racism that is behind so much of the Republican campaign and law-making activity of the day, just as the Limbaugh/slut thing has focused attention on the Repub "war on women."

I think their true colors are showing for everyone to see and for them to be very embarrassed about. This cannot anymore be covered with code words. It is there plain to see. Given their recent rigidity, I doubt if they will walk any of it back, either. Good for them.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:21 AM

WHY was the 17 year old "kid" in a gated community in the first place. It's gated for a reason.

George called the police and reported the intruder, clearly something happened after that causing him to unholster his weapon.

Looks like George was defending himself or the area he looks after. No crime as far as I can see, clearly the law agrees with this as George hasn't been charged with anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:57 AM

This page at the Huffington post has recordings of 911 calls.

I didn't listen to all of them. The third one down was quite enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 12:22 PM

They have to charge the guy--he committed homicide. It doesn't matter what the kid did, assuming he did anything at all, you CANNOT shoot an unarmed person and claim self-defense. By law, that is a homicide and you WILL be charged.

Well, that's how it is up here in the North. Down South. where I thankfully no longer live, you can kill anybody you want as long as you're a good ol' boy and anyone who says I'm full of shit is full of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 01:39 PM

I don't think we can blame the location.

People with power can get away with crimes that those without are punished for. Whether the power is racial, political, wealth or something else, it give them license they SHOULD NOT HAVE.

There are witnesses, and there will be forensic evidence. Zimmerman should be arrested and prosecuted. I'm just hoping the delay involves lining up ducks... hoping.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:01 PM

It that same state that a guy shot a Japanese exchange student for knocking on his door to ask directions a few years ago ... Insanity is running faster than Niagara Falls everywhere anymore. Shit if were not a gun the guy would have run him over with a car .. Nuts are nuts and useless police officers that do nothing are just that, useless. Maybe the Feds will step in, they have before

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:11 PM

I had a wonderful student when I was a professor, He was a great kid with a great family. In fact he still calls me his other dad on father's day. Black student. One year he went to Florida on spring break. An eighty something year old woman who can't see, can't hear had a ton of traffic violations ran a red light and he T Boned her and totaled his car. Guess who the police arrested ... yup not the 80 year old local. Thank God no one was hurt but even the witnesses said she never stopped for the red light and he still got fined for hitting her car. Nothing f'in changes does it

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:35 PM

Lizzie asked yesterday: "WTF does the USA not ban guns???"

Umm... because there are several hundred million guns already out there? And because many paranoid owners have stashed them away, ready to start a civil war if anyone tries to ban them?

They rationalize that they NEED guns in case their 'rights' are violated. In the meantime, the guns get used-- there are FAR too many guns that are FAR too easy to get.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 03:16 PM

WHY was the 17 year old "kid" in a gated community in the first place. It's gated for a reason.

Damn Right! Its gated to keep them goddam ni**ers out!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 03:18 PM

P.S. : I'm so farkin proud to see how far we've come as a country since 1963 & Hattie Carroll that I could just shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 03:19 PM

So what you are telling us, Bill D, is that your government can't govern ~~ or is too scared to try?

Have I got that right?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 03:45 PM

There were no shootings here in the last month, in a town where it is estimated that, on average, there are four firearms per household...regardless of race. Obviously we are below average and will have to start shooting to catch up.

"Homicide" is the killing of someone. It is NOT the same as manslaughter or murder. If you commit homicide you should be taken into custody and the matter thoroughly investigated. Then, if appropriate, charges should be brought. It doesn't matter if you use your bare hands, a knife, a firearm, a grenade, a landmine, a nuclear weapon -- you killed someone and thereby committed homicide. It is not for me or you to decide if the killing was "justifiable" -- hopefully that's for the courts to decide.

Based on what I know about it I see no reason for the killing in this case. I would also ask if deadly force was necessary -- why wasn't the kid simply asked what was going on?

Mind you, I very much dislike "gated communities" -- to my mind their for the paranoid and/or those who feel that they shouldn't have to associate with the riff-raff commoners. They have a place as an independent living facility for elderly folks (my MIL lives in one with about [literally] 3,000 others), but for most of us -- nah. They will only slow down first responders and do create a sense that "Hey, they must have money!" in the minds of the bad guy, which makes them more tempting targets.

But I'm outa here, for I don't see this thread going anywhere useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:37 PM

This 17 year old, made an illegal entry into a gated community. Clearly there was no good intent in his head.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:03 PM

"This 17 year old, made an illegal entry into a gated community. Clearly there was no good intent in his head."

He lived in the "gated community" asshole. He was on his way home from a seven-eleven.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:09 PM

Looks like George was defending himself or the area he looks after. No crime as far as I can see, clearly the law agrees with this as George hasn't been charged with anything.

Clearly you haven't read the account, "Bluesman." A 17-year-old boy with a bag of Skittles (candy) is shot by a super-vigilant self-appointed security patrol who chased him down after the boy fled the scary white guy with the gun. Too many calls to 911 gave an account of the boy being pursued and attacked. Bernhard Goetz was another self-appointed vigilante, and even thought it is clear that the four young men he shot were trying to mug him, he was breaking the law by carrying the gun and shooting them. There is no indication that this boy was doing anything but travelling along a city sidewalk. And clearly the law is accustomed to giving white law-breakers a pass. If I were you, I wouldn't place any bets on this guy getting away without an indictment.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: pdq
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:31 PM

...from BlackPlanet:

"Trayvon Martin's life ended last month during the NBA All-Star Weekend. His brisk walk to a convenience store to buy candy for his 13-year-old brother turned into a confrontation with the armed captain. Martin, who lived in Miami, was visiting his father and step-mother in the gated Retreat town homes at Twin Lakes in Sanford, some 20 miles north of Orlando."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:38 PM

According to at least one report I looked at, he and his parents were visiting, not resident, in the gated community. At any rate, he was returning from a convenience store to the house where his parents were.

If you're going to debate about how legislation plays in this case you could go with the guns-no guns debate, but a more subtle (and appropriate in the U.S. context) framing might be to look at it in terms of self-defense laws.

The tragedy that this event (and Bluesman's statements!) exemplifies is that most parents of young black men in this country live with the fear of their sons falling under suspicion simply for being young and black.

Also, as James Fallows says, "... this case is obviously about race, and is important on those grounds. Race relations are after all the original and ongoing tension in U.S. history. But it is also about self-government, rule of law, equality before the law, accountability of power, and every other value that we contend is integral to the American ideal ... ."

Here's more info --

NY Times news report: Justice Department investigation is sought in Florida teenager's shooting death

Charles Blow in the NY Times: The curious case of Trayvon Martin


Ta-Nehisi Coates of the Atlantic is following the story closely and has included links to the above as well as other reports.

His posts thus far (in chronological order from oldest to newest):

Forida's self-defense laws and the killing of Trayvon Martin

Stand-your-ground and Trayvon Martin

More on the killing of Trayvon Martin

Trayvon Martin cont.

Florida's ubiquitous castle

The town where Trayvon Martin was killed

The killing of Trayvon Martin - 911 tapes released

On the police investigating the killing of Trayvon Martin

Sanford's police chief is the real victim of racism

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:13 PM

"...your government can't govern ~~ or is too scared to try?"

Now, Michael...YOU are clever enough to intuit the answer to that! Does "tilting at windmills" or King Canute sweeping back the waves explain it?

For the 1st 200 years, this was a frontier society with them impudent Injuns and wild animals...and the occasional British regiment... to cope with. EVERYONE had a gun....and in Appalachia and in the western mountains, hunting was common for many years after the country was 'pacified'. And then there was this awkward bit in the 2nd Amendment that 'seems' to allow anyone to "keep & bear arms".

So... with that kind of history, how would YOU go about banning...or even severely restricting... guns- especially with the NRA buying lobbyists & legislators? Do you think ANY decent president could be elected if he came out against gun ownership?

If *I* had a magic button, every weapon in private hands would suddenly be 'disabled' and would require individual actions by authority to re-enable any that seemed relevant.....but I think magic buttons are still in Beta mode.

There will have to be some slow, careful steps to limit gun ownership in any meaningful ways...much like we are dealing with tobacco. In the meantime, idiots like this vigilante will keep doing what they are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:29 PM

"17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by a Neighborhood Watch captain inside his own gated Orlando, Florida community where he was living with his father, stepmother and little brother."

Global Grind

From the same site:

"Trayvon was shot and killed by George Zimmerman as he was walking through a gated neighborhood while visiting family in Sanford, FL, which is about 20 miles north of Orlando."

So there appears to be some confusion as to whether he was living there or just visiting. In any case he should not have been murdered for walking down the street and guest Bluesman is still an asshole because he is assuming that he was doing something illegal and deserved to be killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:35 PM

MOST of this gated community is white... the few minorities are the exception, so a young black kid gets 'profiled' as 'suspicious'....even if he was only walking.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:44 PM

"It would seem likely, as the racially charged shooting has cast a spotlight on Florida's so-called "Stand Your Ground" law, which was passed under then-Governor Jeb Bush in 2005 and allows the use of guns or other deadly force as a means of self-defense in public places without first trying to back off from a confrontation."

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828476#ixzz1pbb4zWPh

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:22 PM

I will explain it again, it is not guns, A federal standard of conceal carry would fix it .. that and getting rid of the fckin gun shows

they pass law after law and yet still allow anyone to walk into a gun show plop down cash and walk out with anything ... no bground check required. A state like Florida, if you can breathe you can get a CCP

nuts

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 08:35 PM

That guy was on the cell phone, he was ordered by the police to not leave his vehicle. Instead he confronts the kid and kills him and claims the Florida "stand your ground law" that says if you are in fear of your life deadly force is ok ... NUTS ... in NYS he would have been immediately arrested for murder since the law requires you to avoid the situation first and foremost. They allow some of these states to let anyone carry weapons. Then again most of them have a drinking age of 18 or so also (don't know about Florida). There is no wonder why most of the really nasty gangs are in that state. Texas is just as bad, they have gun shows 1 mile from the Mexican border so we can really arm all the drug gangs properly and they walk back over to Mexico unchecked... when is enough enough. It will take a federal firearms act to put the leash on this stuff

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:18 PM

So, let me ask you....would you trust those who run guns (fast and furious) to drug cartels to restrict our guns???...How about knocking off THEIR bullshit!

The biggest abusers of the gun laws, and abusers of guns is not the 'people' but the government....both sides!

It's OK to circumnavigate the Constitution, and invade countries(with guns)..so I guess they feel entitled to circumnavigate the Constitution on a host of other issues as well!...as long as they can sell it to you!
If the Republicans do it....its 'national security'..if the Democrats do it...its pandering to a new group they decide to elevate to 'victim-hood'...for the sake of justifying just another bit of nonsensical emotionalizing of legitimizing corruption!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:20 PM

""In any case he should not have been murdered for walking down the street and guest Bluesman is still an asshole because he is assuming that he was doing something illegal and deserved to be killed.""

I couldn't agree more.

Strange, when I posted an almost identical assessment of Bluesman following his highly offensive comment, some bright spark saw fit to delete it.

Don T.

--wasn't deleted, Don. It didn't take. Use your "back" button to save the text and try again, if you're not sure it's going to work. --mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:30 PM

Sanity I believe in the 2nd Amendment ... but even Thomas Jefferson said that criminals should not possess guns .. I will find the exact quote. The problem with the gun shows is no background check .. none cash and carry

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:35 PM

That reminds me. I have to pop 'round the County Courthouse in town and fill out my form for a Pennsylvania LTC (License to Carry), a pro-forma process that will cover me if I should happen to forget to put my .22 rifle "varmint gun" into its case on the way to and from the barn, but also permits me to carry in the open or concealed, a hand-gun.

I'm a bleeding-heart liberal, but I also realize that disarming everyone but the scofflaw nut-jobs makes nobody safer.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:39 PM

Greg
   since you have a new york state carry permit, it will be just a formality in PA, make a copy of your permit before applying they will issue one no problem at all since NY is so tough to get one. I have both

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:42 PM

I don't have a NY permit. Nor NJ, where I formerly lived. But our Bucks County Sheriff is apparently a "well-ordered militia" believer and, along with most PA sheriffs, gets the whole process done in less than an hour. I don't intend to parade about with a side-arm; I just don't want to get grief for having my varmint-gun in the back seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 09:43 PM

Please do, olddude...by the way, do you think that the British would have thought Washington and Jefferson would fit into the category of being 'criminals'?...or that Washington and Jefferson would have considered themselves 'criminals'?
Just wondering...

Oh, and by the way, Warmest Regards to You!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:02 PM

"Then again most of them have a drinking age of 18"

I do not think that is the case. I was in Louisiana when I heard that They were the last to make it 21. The Feds blackmailed them into it with Highway funding,

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:31 PM

Stand your ground-make an orphan

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:32 AM

As someone noted above, the Florida "stand your ground" law may mean it is not possible to bring criminal prosecution against Zimmerman, but like someone else said, I think it likely the Feds will step in, and like yet some else said, there will likely be grounds for a civil lawsuit.

None of which will bring this young boy back to life.

I don't question that Zimmerman perceived himself and his neighborhood to be threatened. Unfortunately, laws such as Florida's "stand your ground" laws do not hold people accountable for how realistic or reasonable their perceptions may be. I hope a way is found for Zimmerman to be held socially accountable.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that racism is at work here, both individual and institutional. I suggest that all of us are racist or tribalist to a greater or lesser degree. We are each accountable, however, for understanding that about ourselves. We are each capable, and therefore accountable, for recognizing the human propensity for stereotyping and to take that into account as we examine our own internal processes. We are each capable, and therefore accountable, for examining our internal processes, assumptions and cognitive distortions.

There are people here I really respect who are insistent on the right to bear arms. I understand we psychologically built differently.   While I share many values with some of these people. I do not see, however, how rampant gun ownership and personal "rights" around bearing arms, especially concealed weapons, trumps the greater safety to our modern society to reducing the number the number of guns in the hands of private citizens. You may feel safer knowing you have a pistol in your belt, glovebox or bedside table. I don't feel safer for you having that gun.

In my 60 years of life I have been mugged once, robbed at gunpoint once on a city street, experienced a home invasion, had people attempt to break-in three times while I was at home, experienced one break-in that included an attempted sexual assualt, and had a crazy boyfriend drive through three counties with a rifle pointed at my head in the front seat of a Ford F250. For a few brief years while living in the country I owned a .22 rifle. I shot one groundhog ravaging my garden with it, and one deer just to see if I was capable of killing another animal for meat. Regarding groundhogs, I discovered box traps. I have not needed, in my life, to kill game to eat. I know that I can if I have to. I also know that meat doesn't appeal so much when I take the life, or participate in the skinning, gutting and butchering of life - whether I shoot the game, or catch it in a box trap and kill it by other means. I especially know that in terms of personal safety, personal possession of a gun would have been of little value in any of the human agressor situations I have dealt with,and quite likely would have increased the danger of the situation. I can certainly conceive of a situation where me having gun could save either my own life or the lives of others. But my own assessment is that when I balance the risks to myself vs. the documented risks to the society in which I live, I am better off without a gun, and even more importantly, my society is better off and safer without rampant gun ownership in the 20th and 21st century.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:17 AM

Janie -- amen, kudos and thank you, especially for that last paragraph. I shall save your post in my "commentary" folder for future reference.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:46 AM

Never mind King Canute [to whom history has given the wrong footnote] or Don Quixote, Bill D. Other countries can control their citizens, more or less, by legislation. You would obviously start by criminalising the carrying of unauthorised weapons [making authorisation difficult to get, not near-automatic] & work on from there with some determined law-enforcement. It would take time & effort to take effect; but you all over there, even those who are opposed to the automatic right to bear arms, seem to be too scared or too reluctant to try ~~ the point of my previous post. All you are doing at the moment, every time an incident like this demonstrates the absolute necessity of doing something of the sort, is flapping your hands helplessly and saying "Oh dear!" Just look back, Bill, at the helpless tone of that first post of yours to which I replied, to see what I mean.

Other countries can do it. So what is wrong with you guys? Thought you were supposed to be the leaders of the world or something.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:31 AM

The Feds have stepped in.
Meantime, the young man's girlfriend has spoken with a lawyer. She was on the phone with him during the chase and shooting. Looking worse and worse for Mr. Zimmerman.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:03 AM

I've come to this late, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything.

MtheGM, the Second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms. There are some people who claim that even the legal requirement for a *license* to own a gun is unconstitutional.

If that amendment were somehow repealed or modified (which, I guarantee you, will not happen, for a number of reasons), there would then be the sticky problem of removing literally tens of millions of privately owned firearms, many of them unregistered and illegal, from the reluctant hands of their owners. (Honesty compels me to add that the overwhelming majority of gun-owners are rational, law-abiding people who never shoot anyone. And the slogan is unfortunately true: if guns are outlawed, the outlaws will still have plenty.)

Whatever the other facts of the present case may be, Zimmerman appears to have been licensed to carry a pistol. That doesn't give him the right to use it whenever he feels like it, but all I'm talking about is gun policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:11 AM

Yes, Lighter, I know all that. We all know all that. But amendments to the Constitution can be repealed [Prohibition!]. And you all spend all your time breast-beating and doing nothing about it. I am sure you can rationalise it all most adequately to your own satisfactions, individually & severally. It just seems a little bit contemptible & pathetic (not to say comic), all this agonising, to most of here in the rest of the world.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:02 AM

First, bad as this has been so far, the Justice Department will investigate this as a hate crime as it meets the actual requiement to do so.

Florida has taken a law used in 25 or so other states to protect pweople who use deadly force when they are backing away from the situation which has placed them in harm's way.......true self defense. Florida went nut which they so often do and wrote their law allowing a person to stand their ground when in harm's way which makes no sense and allows vigilanteism to take over. Hopefully this will bring down that dumbass law.

The mayor, police chief, and others will be meeting with the Justice department and this case will turn in a different direction. The girlfriend is encouraging news but without some solid statement, the local police are pretty screwed here thanks to this stupid law.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:35 AM

Packing a Gun Makes You Think Everyone Else Is Too

There are plenty of reasons not to run round wielding a gun, but here's a new one; holding one makes you think that other people are holding guns, too. And that is not a desirable kind of paranoia to find in someone wielding a weapon.

A study conducted a Notre Dame University found that holding a gun shifts cognitive bias, making a person holding one far more likely to assume that other people are also holding one.

Gizmodo

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:53 AM

I'm agreeing with MtheGM again.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

""I am sure you can rationalise it all most adequately to your own satisfactions, individually & severally.""

Yes! And you do that by conveniently forgetting that the right to bear arms in the Constitution is a limited right.

I do not (being a UK citizen) know the exact words, but I believe the gist of it is that you have a Constitutional right to bear arms against an opressive government.

As I read it, this does not include carrying rights for use, or defence, against fellow citizens.

The weasel word justifications by the NRA and Southern redneck gun nuts cannot possibly be taken seriously when weighed against the violent execution of a seventeen year old child carrying a bag of sweets, who was heading back from the local shop to his mother's house.

Who is looking after HIS rights?

From what has happened to date, NOBODY!...and especially not "Florida's Finest", the appointed law enforcers.

I should say that, in these circumstances, Trayvon Martin's parents might be argued to have a Constitutional right to take up arms against those authorities, and who could blame them if they did?

Let's hope the Feds do come down on Zimmerman like the wrath of God, and on the local police and DA also. I would wish they would be not just fired, but jailed, for not taking action.

The local authorities have opened the door for vigilantes to go out and kill black people with impunity. There must be something criminal in that.

Gandhi was right!

""American civilisation would be a good idea!"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

Please read carefully. As I said, the Second Amendment will not be repealed.

Too many people want guns. Many of them are outraged by even minimal gun control. No legislation calling for repeal of the Second Amendment will ever get through a Congressional committee. It will not even be proposed. Too many people want guns.

Too many people wanted booze, too. And they didn't mind if they made   mobsters rich to get it. That's the main reason Prohibition was repealed, and only a few years after it began. Prohibition wasn't part of the Bill of Rights.

I'm just explaining what's what. The breast-beaters would be more helpful if they'd propose a workable solution. Remember that stricter gun control has been a major issue in the U.S. for nearly half a century (and it has gotten a little stricter).

Stay tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:18 PM

If you had followed my posts for 10-12 years, you would see that I have suggested everything I can think of to get across the foolishness of the gun laws in this country.

I have suggested limiting the amount and type of ammunition that anyone can buy. I have recommended that the 2nd amendment be clarified to reflect the difference between 1789 and 2012...or totally rewritten.
I have suggested having extremely strict laws about who can carry a concealed weapon.... and much more.

But... I am a pragmatist who sees VERY clearly how the system works....and as I said, amending the Constitution requires agreement! People wanted to drink... so getting rid of prohibition was fairly easy. They also want to "keep & bear arms", so repealing or rewriting the 2nd amendment would NOT be easy. I repeat... the NRA spends millions keeping the status quo alive, and most legislators see offering any revision to the 2nd amendment as effectively ending their term in office....and right now, that is how it would be in most states. Maybe Oregon would go along...maybe not.

Even **IF** such legislation were passed and the amendment somehow ratified (I wouldn't hold my breath unless I looked good in blue) there are those many, many millions of guns still out there... and during the voting and ratifying process, there would be many more sold!
You see, many of these stalwart "defenders of Liberty" **believe** that any attempt to change the law or constitution is exactly what they have stockpiled guns to prepare for! They view the attempt as a governmental plot to control their lives! It makes no difference if they are deluded... they believe it...and they have guns!

(Note...guns are not like alcohol. Booze is gradually consumed and the process of getting more can be made 'harder'..(though as we found out during prohibition, not at all impossible)...whereas guns just sit there, not expiring and not being depleted by use.

As to being able to " ..control their citizens, more or less, by legislation."...is Syria able to? Even there, people are finding way to obtain arms to fight an obviously oppressive regime. In the USA, the arms are not only already in the hands of "the people", but there are so many ways to hide them in this huge area.

Many people here believe in the bumper sticker that says: "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!"

Yes.. we SHOULD 'do something', but it will take many, many small steps...like, as I said, tobacco.

It is difficult for smaller countries with different forms of government to comprehend the different mindset here! Even if 53% would agree to ban guns, they would have no idea how to approach the 47%.☺

*I* will continue to write, argue & plead for sanity and revision of the system, but I get ONE vote....

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:57 PM

The guy is not guilty of any crime otherwise he would have been arrested. Clearly this thug was in this area and up to no good.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:30 PM

Troll alert

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:51 PM

If you turkeys are gonna rehash the gun debate yet again, I wish you would start your own goddam thread and not cram it in this one about a murdered child. I know it's simpler, but... it's simpler.
------------

Stand Your Ground fathers: Trayvon Martin's killer should likely be arrested, doesn't deserve immunity

The fathers of Florida's controversial Stand Your Ground law implicated in the death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin say the man who shot him to death probably should be arrested and doesn't deserve a self-defense claim of immunity.

Former state Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley say the law they passed in 2005 was designed to protect citizens by giving them the right to "meet force with force."

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/ ...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:35 PM

I thought I heard today that a federal investigation had started.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:42 PM

Jeri's point is well-taken, and though it is all to easy to slip into 'causes' after such an incident, I have started a thread specifically for comments about guns and laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:00 PM

Both the FBI and the Justice department as well as several other agencies including a grand jury are now in action so we should see Zimmerman under arrest soon.

The Florida law is an overreach. Many other states have strong "backing away" laws which draw the lines far clearer. Quite a few people commented on the Florida law when it passed that it would lead to shootouts.........................It is a bad law and poorly written and even more poorly implemented.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:08 PM

AP story in the Richmond Times-Dispatch:

The phone call that recorded Martin's final moments was disclosed as the U.S. Justice Department opened a federal civil rights probe into the Feb. 26 shooting and the local prosecutor convened a grand jury to investigate.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:19 PM

Five years since Florida enacted "stand-your-ground" law, justifiable homicides are up (Tampa Bay Times, October 17, 2010)

(excerpted)

That's because of Florida Statute 776.013(3), which took effect five years ago this month. The old law gave you the right to protect yourself with deadly force inside your home. The 2005 law gives you the right to protect yourself in a park, outside a Chili's, on a highway — just about anywhere.

You need only to "reasonably believe" that pulling the trigger or plunging the knife or swinging the bat is necessary to stop the other person from hurting you.

Reports of justifiable homicides tripled after the law went into effect, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Last year, twice a week, on average, someone's killing was considered warranted.

The self-defense law — known as "stand your ground" — has been invoked in at least 93 cases with 65 deaths, a St. Petersburg Times review found.

In the majority of the cases, the person's use of force was excused by prosecutors and the courts.

From the article (data assembled from reports in major newspapers):

Reports of justifiable homicides in Florida have spiked.

For the first half of this decade, the state counted an average of 34 justifiable homicides a year, as few as 31 and as many as 43.

That continued in 2006, the law's first full year.

But the next three years brought these numbers:

2007: 102.

2008: 93.

2009: 105.

The first six months of 2010: 44.

---

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 06:24 PM

Like I said...........and thank you Becky!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:25 PM

Sounds like Florida has a 007 law - license to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:05 PM

The "Stand Your Ground" law is the reason that Zimmerman is not under arrest. When he says "Self defense!" and the the other key witness is dead... not much can be done. (At least, that's the way it seems to play out.) Hope that the expanding body of evidence and the investigation of civil issues will bring some semblance of justice to the situation.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:17 PM

Why isn't someone making the point that "stand your ground" seems to say you can shoot almost anyone you don't like and claim "self defense"?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:27 PM

""Why isn't someone making the point that "stand your ground" seems to say you can shoot almost anyone you don't like and claim "self defense"?

Unless, of course, YOU are black! Then it would be an instant murder charge, a swift prejudged conviction and, in all probability, the death penalty!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:45 PM

Bill, I think that will be investigated, and I HAVE heard/read people asking the same question.

This can't possibly be considered self defense. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle, even though the police dispatcher told him NOT to, and pursued Trayvon Martin. Judging by the phone call he made to the police where he talks about seeing a suspicious-looking, probably-black male and complaining about how they always get away in a pretty calm-sounding voice, I think it was possible he just wanted to force a confrontation and shoot somebody.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:47 PM

Bill.......As I stated above, early on a number of Florida lawmakers and others said this law would lead to shootouts. It brings the professional vigilante onto a legal footing! It really is nuts. I think this case will bring this law back into the news enough to see some action in repealing it.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:50 PM

Bottom line here is that the shooter was instructed by law enforcement to leave the kid alone and they had folks on the way...

Yet after that the shooter stalked the kid and killed him...

The prosecution rests...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:31 PM

I predict that Zimmerman WILL be in jail soon...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:12 PM

I'd agree Bill. I have no legal training or qualifications, but I reckon I could prosecute this one and get a conviction.

Of course the prosecution will have to think seriously about the case being heard elsewhere, with the Mayor, the DA and the Chief of Police, doing their very best to load the jury in favour of this "Pillar of the Community".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:14 AM

"Justifiable homicide" has increased three fold since the enactment of "stand your ground." The law has not decreased crime as some have argued
here repeatedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:08 AM

Why are liberals sticking up for Trayvon Martin when they should support George Zimmerman?

My guess is it's because they can't stand their own cowardice. George was protecting his community from a 'suspicious' outsider - George's own words. Clearly, George can be heard screaming for help, and liberals hid in their houses, because 'they didn't want to get involved' - also on tape. Absolute cowardice. Thank God George was able to defend himself from this vicious attacker.

Did you know that Bob Dylan's real name is Robert Allen Zimmerman?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:00 AM

I have worked out why 'some people' dont have membership here .

Its so that they can post absolute crap , and NOT get any nasty facts sent by PM pointing out what crap they are spouting !

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:15 AM

So if Americans have a right to make reasonable provisions for their own defence (as the NRA would doubtless assert) then I suppose young black men will be forced to conclude that they should all be carrying guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:21 AM

GUEST Bluesman - Have you listened to the 911 cals ? Where did you hear that it was Mr Zimmerman who was screaming for help ? and why , pray , would a man with a gun scream for help ?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:27 AM

"they should support George Zimmerman?"
From this morning's Times
Jim Carroll

SCHOOLBOY'S DEATH SPARKS CIVIL RIGHTS ROW
FBI to investigate after killer cites self-defence law
United States Nico Hines Washington

The shooting of an unarmed black school¬boy in Florida has forced the US Justice Department and the FBI to launch a federal investigation after his killer escaped arrest by citing controversial self-defence laws.
Trayvon Martin, 17, was walking home from a shop carrying a bag of sweets for his little brother when he was shot dead by a neighbourhood watch leader who thought the boy might be "up to no good".
Almost a month after his death civil rights leaders, an international petition and a campaign by prominent African-Americans has forced the federal Government to intervene in the case.
Police in Sanford, central Florida, had claimed that there was no reason to doubt the words of George Zimmerman, 28, who said that he had shot the teenager in self-defence. Under the state's "stand your ground" law, introduced by Governor Jeb Bush in 2005, Floridians are allowed to use lethal force to defend themselves in public places if they feel threatened.
Mr Zimmerman's story began to fall apart under the glare of the national media when officials released a phone call that he made early on the evening of February 26. The neighbourhood watch "captain" asked the emergency services for assistance in dealing with a suspicious looking man.
"This guy looks like he's up to no good," Mr Zimmerman said to the police operator. "These ass****s. They always get away."
Hearing what sounded like heavy breathing, the police handler asked: "Are you following him?"
When Mr Zimmerman confirmed that he was in pursuit, the operator asked him to stop. The boy, who had started to run away, called his girlfriend to say that a strange man was following him.
Neighbours from the gated Twin Lakes community, near Orlando, heard a com¬motion and called the police. One of those calls appears to have inadvertently cap¬tured Trayvon's cries as Mr Zimmerman caught up with him. "I recognised that as my baby screaming for help," Sybrina Fulton, his mother, said. A few minutes later her child was dead.
When police officers arrived at about 7.20pm Mr Zimmerman told them that he had been forced to defend himself from an attack. Previous provisions in self-defence laws had demanded that citizens retreat before using force but those limitations were removed under Mr Bush and local police said that they had no choice but to let the man go free. Similar gun laws have since been adopted by 20 states.
After more than three weeks of protest a central Florida prosecutor said last night that a grand jury would be convened to reconsider the evidence. That announce¬ment came after the rare intervention of federal law enforcement agencies.   
A spokesman for the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division said that there would be an independent review of the investigation while the Congressional Black Caucus accused the Sanford police department of displaying a "blatant disregard for justice".
Tracey Martin, Trayvon's father, has given a series of television interviews in which he has claimed that his son was racially profiled "He knew he was being followed and tried to get away", he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:39 AM

Yes Terry, I have listened to the calls.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:50 AM

Some apparent facts here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

I have done a little more digging and it seems most probable that

1. Trayvon Martin had no prior record of being charged or convicted of criminality
2. Zimmerman had at least one previous record for assault.   Public records show he was arrested in Orange County in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer. The charges were later dropped. His neighbourhood watch activities had sparked complaints from residents. The tapes of calls seem to record him calling Martin a "fucking coon".
3. The policeman who initially refused to arrest Zimmerman, Sergeant Anthony Raimondo in 2010,declined to arrest Justin Collison, who brutally attacked a black homeless man, leaving him unconscious and breaking his nose. Collison, who is white, is the son of a Sanford police officer and the grandson of a former Florida judge. Collison was intoxicated at the time of the unprovoked attack. Also, a Youtube video captured the attack while it occurred. Despite having possession of the video, Raimando still refused to arrest Collison. Police only arrested Collison after the national media released the video and criticized police handling of the case.


At the moment I find it hard to envisage a clearer case of a racially motivated pursuit and murder - a case of "walking whilst black". How Zimmerman could pick on Martin, chase Martin, and shoot the unarmed Martin and still claim that he reasonably thought he was acting in self defence is wholly baffling even under the fairly ridiculous and ill drafted and thought out Jeb-Bush signed "stand your ground" local law.

That law however does make a good case for federal pre-emption to create a US wide consistent law of homicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:41 AM

Anybody else feel like this country is in some kind of time warp?

This case, (a white guy with a gun who outweighs the young black youth by 100 pounds and is obviously stalking the kid using equally obvious racial profiling and language to boot) and others like it seem to be too common anymore. And something like that is common?

We are trying to dismantle social programs, women's issues are regressing back well past 50 years ago, health care goes back in lockstep with the rest, and we are approaching another Truman-Dewey election, and all the while fervently praying to god with more ardor than ever as we ask for his blessing on this on all of this shit????

I used to worry about the future but now I don't as it really isn't the future where we're going but the past!   Wake me up when we get back to about 1775 or so. I want to have a few words with with Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, and a few other guys.....kinda' plant a little bug in their ears........


Spaw


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:07 AM

Yeah, Spaw, like I said- we sure have come a long way from Emmett Till & Hattie Carroll, ain't we?

I dunno, tho, about a time warp. Maybe just a case of collective delusion, and we convinced ourselves thatt things were much inmproved over the 1950's & 60's, when in fact nothing had really changed at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:32 AM

"Zimmerman had at least one previous record for assault.   Public records show he was arrested in Orange County in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer. The charges were later dropped"

So without Richard's trickery of words, that translates to George not having any conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:37 AM

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Zimmerman has some kind of connection to a police force, like as a paid informant or something along that line. The fact that those charges against him were dismissed and that it appears he is being given special treatment in not even being arrested let alone, charged looks pretty suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:46 PM

Yeah, Spawzer... You got it... The right wing in this country is trying to leap back to the 1800s...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:25 PM

A quite detailed and interesting legal analysis by Andrew Cohen (he's also legal analyst for 60 Minutes and CBS Radio News) of "the details and unanswered questions that will come to light when the case goes to court next month" is here: Trayvon Martin's Killer Was Looking for Trouble -- and Found It (article at The Atlantic online).

That article has a link to an article in the Miami Herald (which may have been linked further upthread here), Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to cops, which details Zimmerman's history as the head (and apparently sole member) of the neighborhood watch.

I don't think it likely there's any particular conspiracy here. There is a well-intentioned person who built himself into an overzealous mindset of responsibility and authority -- who carried a gun, and who had a certain picture in his mind of what a criminal looked like. In spite of the neighborhood being 20% African American, a black person was a potential criminal:

Travis Williams, a black 16-year-old [neighborhood resident] who wears dreadlocks, said last year a man came to his house and accused him of stealing a bicycle. The police even came and checked the serial numbers on the bike in his garage.

I'm not seeing mentioned much that Zimmerman did end up with a wound on the back of his head. There was some physical struggle. But the whole encounter should never have started.

As a mother of a white 17-year-old boy, I was struck by these comments by a young (20s) black couple who live in the neighborhood (from the Miame Herald article):

They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year. Zimmerman seemed friendly, helpful, and a "pretty cool dude," Ibrahim Rashada said.

"He came by here and talked about carrying guns and getting my wife more involved with guns," he said. "He said I should have a weapon and that his wife took classes to learn how to use one.

"I do have a weapon, but I don't walk around the neighborhood with mine!"

Actually, he does not walk around the neighborhood at all.

"I fit the stereotype he emailed around," he said. "Listen, you even hear me say it: 'A black guy did this. A black guy did that.' So I thought, 'Let me sit in the house. I don't want anyone chasing me.' "

For walks, he goes downtown. A pregnant Quianna listened to her husband's rationale, dropped her head, and cried.

"That's so sad," she said. "I hope our child doesn't have to go through that."

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:32 PM

"Court documents obtained by The Orlando Sentinel Wednesday afternoon reveal domestic violence allegations surrounding George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Records show that Zimmerman's ex-fiancé filed a petition against him for allegedly pushing her in her home after insisting he leave in August 2005. The woman said Zimmerman became upset over not receiving and took her cell phone before shoving her. A fight broke out between the two with the woman's dog biting Zimmerman in the cheek.

Zimmerman filed his own petition, claiming his ex-fiancé started the fight by inviting him over and refused to give him the documents he owned, which included mortgage papers and a car loan.

The ex-fiancé also reported that Zimmerman grouped her against her wishes in 2002 and "open handed smacked" her in the mouth in 2003. She wrote that during the alleged groping, Zimmerman "said he could because I was his woman."

Zimmerman however claimed he was the victim, alleging that his ex-fiancé assaulted him with a baseball bat after attending a concert together in November 2002.

Based on their petitions against each other, Zimmerman and his ex-fiancé were given restraining orders, with both expiring on August 24, 2006.

Zimmerman is currently hiding, as Martin's family and many others locally and nationally call for his arrest. A grand jury will investigate the case starting April 10."

The Raw Story

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 06:23 PM

""Under the state's "stand your ground" law, introduced by Governor Jeb Bush in 2005,""

That explains a lot. Sapling's after equalling Daddy Shrub's body count.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:09 PM

He does seem to get into a lot of confrontations and claim that he was the victim.

There is a pattern of paranoid behaviour emerging.

"It's not me guv, it's all the others.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:26 PM

George Herbert Walker Bush was a better statesman and strategist than his sons will ever be. He was the one who put the no-fly zone in place that kept Saddam in line for years. Clinton enforced it just the way Bush I set it up. It was Dubya who decided he could do better.

I've heard Jeb is the smarter of the Bush sprouts. He'll be in town to speak on Friday, but I'm not planning to attend.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:50 PM

Well when it makes The Torygraph , SOMETHING has to happen

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:03 PM

This guy is going down... 48 hours and he'll be arrested...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:50 PM

Becky, I want to add my thanks to Spaw's for hunting out and posting the links you have.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:26 PM

Before anyone comments further, please go read Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman "On the Psychology of Killing". He is a Professor of Psychology at West Point, and an Army Ranger.

What you hear of this incident will make perfect sense.

One key idea is "dehumanization", as exemplified by the quote "Fucking Coon".

Okay 2nd amendment people...how do you keep guns out of the hands of the Zimmermans of the world. Really. How?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:18 AM

According to the Daily Mail, the youth was dealing drugs in the area, he was illegally inside a gated area, the recording clearly showed George Zimmerman feared for his life and the lives of others.

It is not a clear cut case.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:46 AM

I have just searched the Daily Mail site and do not find any such reports. While looking I did find this (not on the Daily Mail site): -

http://xxlittlethoughts.tumblr.com/post/19661288191/what-everyone-should-know-about-trayvon-martin

I would also point out that there is no record (that I have found) of Trayvon Martin having been examined for any other injuries than the gunshot wound.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:58 AM

We here so much this side of the water about the great christian belief of america, perhaps those with guns would do better to give more consideration to the 6th commandment rather than the 2nd amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:47 AM

Richard, I have searched several sites and found no convictions against George Zimmerman. Could you please give links to actual convictions.

Being questioned by police over a matter is not a conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:59 AM

CNN has enhanced the audio, and its technicians cannot confirm any use of the word "coon" or any other racial epithet.

There apperars to have been a scuffle, since police saw that Zimmerman's back was wet, and his nose was bleeding.

Two neighbors say they saw Zimmerman astride Martin's back, pinning him to the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:01 AM

Thanks for that Lighter. I knew someone had added that word to bolster up their twisted side of the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:03 AM

At no time did I say that Zimmerman had been convicted. He was charged as I stated.   He had also reportedly created trouble in the community by his eager vigilantism.



I have found no trace of any charge against Martin, nor anything other than favourable reports of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:10 AM

Not only, anonymous guest, can I find no trace of what you say the Daily Mail said, I also can't find any trace of what "guest, lighter" reports CNN as saying, but I can find ABC commenting on the apparent use of the word "coon".

I think you ought to verify your statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:33 AM

Guest - you quoted the Daily Mail as saying "According to the Daily Mail, the youth was dealing drugs in the area, he was illegally inside a gated area, "

I've been reading the Daily Mails articles and missed those references. Can you provide a link? From everything I've read Martin WAS visiting someone in that community. His fathers girlfriend. I can find no references in ANY article that Martin ever sold drugs. So can you provide your sources?

Doesn't it sound like a jury should decide exactly what happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:43 AM

Here's a CNN story, including the audio in which they can't confirm the racial slur. Seems pretty clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:00 AM

Listening to that it sounds clear as day to me "fucking coons".

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:07 AM

Sounds like it to me, even before the audio work. Not clear, but I can't think of any alternative pair of words that it could be instead, with that sort of intonation, and I think anyone claiming that it was something else would have to suggest what it could be, and convince the hearers of that alternative.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:19 AM

Yep. Maybe they want people to listen for themselves instead of trying to convince people to believe it's what someone else says it is. Also, they might not have been able to play it over and over if the acknowledged it was "fucking coons" because of the censors. Sort of like "if you disagree that's what he says, then its' acceptable to play it 20 times." Those who claim that's not what he said can't complain when it's played on the air so everyone who wants to can hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:28 AM

These words are not on the recording. Accept the fact that if the man had committed a crime, he would have been charged.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:48 AM

Anonymous guest, you have no comprehension of the layers of the judical process here. The feds will pick up the slack where lax state law has let too many murders go unchallenged. And this state law will probably be overturned in the supreme court because this is the case that will break that camel's back.

One should never have to accept a racist act as legal, just because a flawed law was put in place to protect such acts. Truth will out, and a sense of fair play will come into this.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:20 AM

I've just heard CNN play the tape over and over as a journalist and an audio tech try to determine what Zimmerman is muttering.

They agreed it *could* be "fucking coons." The journalist said he wouldn't be able to swear to it, and the tech seemed to agree. So CNN has not been able to confirm what Zimmerman said.

Point One. If a sound expert and a careful listener can't tell what's being said while standing right next to the speakers as the sound is being "cleaned" and enhanced, you're not going be able to tell by listening to the sound of a raw tape (or even the enhanced tape) played through your radio or TV set.

Point Two. I certainly couldn't tell what the words were through my speakers. I'm not even sure he said "fucking," though he may have. CNN, however, was pretty sure that he did.

Point Three. It might help to know what Zimmerman ordinarily sounds like. Being familiar with his accent (and, yes, everybody has one) is necessary. Was he drunk? Was he high? That could influence the sound of his words - not to mention the precise charges to be brought.

Point Four. I've spent many hours transcribing poor-quality tapes. You'd be amazed at how deceptive they can be. What sounds (sort of) clear as day one minute can sound like gibberish the next. And vice versa. Try the threads on James M. Carpenter's sea shanty recordings and you'll see just how inconsistent transcriptions can be.

Point Four: On a bad recording, unless you've had training you will often hear the words you expect to hear.

Point Five. CNN has extremely sophisticated equipment. Maybe somebody has something better. The only people qualified to determine for sure what was said would be a combination of audio experts and specialists in articulatory phonetics, In other words, experts. And a jury may have to decide whose experts are more likely to be right.

I wouldn't advise convicting someone on the basis of a barely audible recording. (Which has nothing to do with the bigger question of whether Zimmerman caused a wrongful death.)

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:35 PM

Very analytical. Sounds clear as day to me.

And for the benefit of anyone foolish enough to believe that all those committing crimes automatically go to jail without passing "go", did I not see that there have been votes of no confidence passed in the local police?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:55 PM

It sounded clear to me on the CNN story, but would I have heard the same thing if I hadn't had the words in my mind beforehand? Here at Mudcat our familiarity with Mondegreens and the difficulty of transcribing text from recordings should make us cautious on that front. In that example it disturbs me that we're listening to that 1.6 seconds of sound out of its context.

Today's news: the Sanford police chief has temporarily stepped down (Miami Herald).

Wow - also on the home page of the Miami Herald, "a Miami-Dade judge on Wednesday cited the law in tossing out the case of a man who chased down a suspected burglar and stabbed him to death." link

It seems seriously screwed up to me that the Stand Your Ground law is interpreted as precluding a jury trial. The police or a judge can toss out any charges preemptively.

Florida legislators who wrote the law say they did not intend that it work that way. Looks like they'd best get busy re-writing it.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:13 PM

Point One: Zimmerman/Zantzinger shot this unarmed man down withoput just cause. I don't give a rat's ass whether or nort he muttered "fucking coons" before he did so.

Point 2: Its murder. Put the asshole in the can for the rest of his natural life. We've altready wasted too much time on this piece of crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:22 PM

"If he muttered "fucking coons", according to CNN Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin, "It's extremely, extremely significant because the federal government is not allowed to prosecute just your ordinary, everyday murder," he said. "Two people fighting on the street is not a federal crime. However, if one person shoots another based on racial hostility, racial animus, that does become a federal crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:39 PM

Two people fighting on the street is not a federal crime.

What? Why does it need to be a federal crime? If someone ends up dead in a street fight why should the other person not stand trial for it? What a weird country you live in...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:51 PM

1) Canada can be weird, but not as weird as the US, and
2) You might look smarter if you read the WHOLE sentence you're quoting from. "Two people fighting on the street is not a federal crime. However, if one person shoots another based on racial hostility, racial animus, that does become a federal crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:56 PM

By the way, murder is not a federal crime unless special circumstances exist. Racial hatred is one of those circumstances. Otherwise, it's a local issue, and I think many of us may not feel great about the local justice system.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:26 PM

I'm not convinced by the idea that I'm going to hear what I have been primed to hear argument. Even though I have thought that the classic example of mishearing "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance" for "send reinforcements. we're going to advance" would not have worked down a field telephone in time of battle, unless the recipient was an idiot, because he would have expected a message about military matters.

In this case, we have two words which were linked in the mind of the speaker, and expressed strongly, like expletives. They sounded like English, not like a Latin language. The first one definitely had the "uckin" sound in the middle, with a strong suggestion of "ng" at the end. I wasn't so sure of the "f", but it wasn't a sound like "m" for example, and involved some breath sound. The second began with the same sound as in the middle of the first word, and had a long "oo" in the middle, ending with an "s", which is always more audible, hence whispering is not a good way to be unheard.

ducking coots? bucking cooks? hucking coombs? sucking coops? They have to be words which make sense together and in the context, don't they?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:24 PM

I am baffled how "stand your ground" becomes "Chase someone and kill them".

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:58 PM

BTW... Sign the petition!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:15 PM

When a law like this is vaguely written and allows such a wide amount of interpretation it is destined for something like this. Justice is involved now and since all it takes for them to be ask to investigate a possible hate crime has already been met, it may take time but we will see some action here. There will also be a lot of states taking a look at their own laws on this.

After a vote of "No Confidence" from the city council, the Chief of Police has "temporarily stepped aside" but his job will be toast and he'll be reeenacting scenes from Platoon with Charlie Sheen.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:50 PM

Thhttp://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/trayvon-martin-case-sparks-dialogue-on-racial-inequality-meaning-of-justice/?hpt=hp_t2 thoughtful blog essay on CNN.

On Morning Addition this morning, an interview with writer Donna Britt and two of her sons-A mom's advice to her young black sons.

Whether or not Zimmerman used a racial slur is indeed important if it makes the difference with whether the feds can get involved if necessary. Otherwise, I'd be sorry to see any attention paid to whether he did or not. The thing is, it does not take the mind of a blatant racist to have an immediate reaction of suspicion or fear about a young black man or teenage walking down the street. As Donna Britt noted, racism and other forms of prejudice are in the air we breathe. All of us. Whatever society in which we live. In addition, we all have our quirks.

Zimmerman, from what little has actually been written about him - and very little of that little bit has been based on impressions of people who know him well - might be a bit quirky, but quite possibly no more quirky than many of us, and certainly no more quirky than many friends, relatives and acquaintances Most of us probably have, and some of whom we love.

It is possible that some redeeming good can arise from the terrible reality of Trayvon Martin's death if more people in society than not can own that Zimmerman's choices and perceptions perhaps reflected biases and perceptions that nearly all of us possess to some degree, and result in us questioning ourselves and owning our own biases.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:22 PM

Janie......Although it will assuredly take more for a conviction, the Feds can be called in at any time the locals believe there is poosibly race/lifestyle/etc. involved and a crime of some sort has taken place. That just happened here about a year ago.

Also, the State's attorney in charge of the case has stepped aside and will probably be joinng the Chief of Police reenacting scenes from Platoon with Charlie Sheen.

Petition count keeps on climbing. Why do we have to have these things before we take action?


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:49 PM

I hear you, Spaw. Seems to me that end of the discussion is pretty well and cogently covered by many of you commenting here.

I just happen to believe that while signing petitions can be effective, petitions also incorporate a bit of mob mentality. I think real social change over time also relies on individual introspection and ownership on an individual level for the attitudes and actions our institutions reflect.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:26 AM

More examples of "The Talk" (that African American parents must have with their sons):

Florida teen's killing is a parent's greatest fear (Corey Dade, NPR)
Under 'suspicion': The killing of Trayvon Martin (Jonathan Capeheart, Washington Post)

There are so many different pieces of wrong that have come together in this event. Some of it lies in individuals, some in the law, some in society... the racist profiling; gun access; individual vigilanteism; legislative facilitation of vigilanteism; police malfeasance (racist? excused by reference to the legislation?).

Thanks so much for your last paragraph, Janie.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 09:36 AM

Janie is right about mob mentality, though fortunately it hasn't reached that level in this case.

Like many newsworthy events, this one is being turned into melodrama before we know all the facts. Zimmerman is assumed to be a racist out to shoot a young black man for the hell of it. Then the racist white cops cover it up.

From what I've read, evidence for that interpretation exists, but it's shaky.

Just as a possibility (neither likely nor unlikely), what about this?

Z. wants to be a hero. He knows there have been a number of burglaries in the *gated* community. "Gated" is important because it means that there's only one way in and out and that any strange "youth" seen walking there at night will attract attention. (Did Martin go through a wide open gate thinking he was taking a shortcut home? We'll never know.)

Z. sees Martin, calls the cops. He follows Martin, gets out of his car, and challenges him. Martin, a 17-year-old football player, stands up for himself: Z. is obviously not a cop, maybe he's a mugger. Z. gets in M.'s face, M. shoves him, maybe hard. Z. gets scared, still wants to be a crime-busting hero, pulls his gun. Maybe M. tries to take it away. Z. shoots M.

When the cops arrive, Z. tells him he thought M. was a burglar. He says M. attacked him and he shot in self-defense.

For whatever reason, the cops decide that the "stand-your-ground" law protects Z. Maybe they're racists, maybe they're stupid, maybe they're lazy, maybe all of the above. Who knows? But they make that decision.

The only thing I'm convinced of is that Z. should have been arrested (Charges could have been dropped later if that's what the facts warranted.) And obviously there should have been a fuller investigation. Did the police interview the women who claimed on CNN that they saw Z. pinning M. to the ground? (BTW, any defense lawyer would ask how they could be certain who was pinning who? It was dark. It was far away. If they were so sure at the time, why did they wait three weeks to tell their story? Etc., etc.)

The police bungled a serious local incident. They should have expected the outcry. Maybe Z. should go to jail for a long time. Maybe not. Maybe under Florida law he really is "blameless." Let's see what the U.S. Department of Justice investigation has to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM

"Zimmerman, from what little has actually been written about him - and very little of that little bit has been based on impressions of people who know him well - might be a bit quirky, but quite possibly no more quirky than many of us,"

I disagree with this Janie. Personally I suspect this person was in fact more than "a little quirky" in the same way that I see any person acting in an extreme fashion (I believe unprovoked killing of a stranger - in a culture which does not explicitly condone such actions - to be an extreme action) to be more than "a little quirky".

Where I do agree is that while others were not necessarily acting in such extreme fashion, they were complicit to a degree. There was clearly sufficient discreet societal (and local to that area) accordance with his views, to superficially 'normalise' this extreme lone action as is evidenced in the absence of legal action against this killer.

I think that the passing of the law discussed below, has no doubt provided a strong societally encouraging precedent to many individuals with potentially extreme tendencies, and the failure to publicly condemn this act, could eventually lead to an implicit social condoning of such actions whereby people who are indeed merely "a little quirky" could become murderers in cold blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:16 AM

Still, here in the UK (where we don't have guns) people who are considered "a little quirky" go bird spotting - or folk singing!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: meself
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:51 AM

Lighter - Are you just a fun-loving contrarian or do you have a darker motive for making up shit and posting it here ("Did Martin go through a wide open gate thinking he was taking a shortcut home? We'll never know.")?

Oh - or have you read nothing at all about this case?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:14 AM

We do know that Zimmerman determinedly pursued and hunted for Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:16 AM

There will also be a lot of states taking a look at their own laws on this.

They sure will, Spaw - for about a minute or a minute & a half ..... then they'll look the other way right quick. And nothing will change.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:16 AM

Obama makes first comments on Trayvon Martin shooting (NY Times, with video clip from MSNBC)

He was very careful not to imply any pre-judgement of the case, but expressed his sense that it was a tragedy that required full investigation.

"I think every parent in America should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this," Mr. Obama said. "All of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen."
...
"Obviously, this is a tragedy. I can only imagine what these parents are going through," Mr. Obama said, his face grim. "When I think about this boy, I think about my own kids."
...
"You know, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon," Mr. Obama said, pausing for a moment. "I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and we are going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened."

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:34 AM

There is enough evidence that he broke this piss poor law as it is written to arrest him. One of these agencies needs to step up to the plate NOW! Zimmerman may be innocent but he has more than enough evidence against him NOW to be arrested.

Let's make Zimmerman black and Martin white.......any questions? This is 2012........Very sad............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:42 AM

PBS News Hour had a brief overview of the case followed by an interesting panel discussion: "Ta-Nehisi Coates, a senior editor for The Atlantic, Reihan Salam, a columnist for The Daily, a newspaper for the iPad, and lead writer of The Agenda blog at National Review Online. Donna Britt is the author of the book "Brothers & Me," which is in part about the shooting death of her brother by police in Gary, Ind. She's a former syndicated columnist for The Washington Post. And Florida state Rep. Dennis Baxley is a Republican legislator who co-authored that state's so-called Stand Your Ground law."

Trayvon Martin Case Sparks New Protests, Debate Over Race, Guns, Law

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 12:57 PM

Wanting to understand what happened doesn't make me a contrarian. As I said, the police screwed up the investigation.

Anyway, there's no darker motive in offering an innocent explanation for M. to have been there (taking a wrong turn that would only lead him back to the gate) or, and this was my point, for Z., the watchman, to suspect otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 01:22 PM

According to FBI statistics, the US suffers through over 17,000 murders every year.

That is about 46.6 murders every day.

This shooting (not yet classified as murder, BTW) took place 28 days ago.

Since then, there have (probably) been about 1300 cases of murder in this country.

Will someone please explain why this shooting merits so much coverage and the others get none?

Is this life more precious than any of the others lost?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:05 PM

""Richard, I have searched several sites and found no convictions against George Zimmerman. Could you please give links to actual convictions.

Being questioned by police over a matter is not a conviction.""

He was not merely questioned, he was charged, a significantly different thing.

The charges were later dropped for reasons unknown (one might draw conclusions about that from the current behaviour of the authorities).

And what happened to the requirement for consistent GUEST identities in BS.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:22 PM

"Will someone please explain why this shooting merits so much coverage and the others get none?"
This case involves the behaviour of the police and the crassness of a law which allows the execution (that is what it appears to be) of somebody on the grounds of suspicion alone as much as it does the actual ocurrence.
Perhaps it should also involve a discussion on the insanity of US gun laws too!!!
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:22 PM

The Republican talkng points of Trayvon asking for it by dressing so provocatively is disgusting. Of course that trash is still used against women who are raped.

Johnny Cash "don't bring your gun to town son, don't bring your gun to town" This was sung out loud by Geraldo Rivera on Fox and friends and then said that Mr. Martin should not have been allowed to wear such intimidating clothes. I thought he had sung the song about Zimmermann but I was wrong.

Clothes have nothing to do with a racist gunning and stalking a black kid near his gated community.

It seems the Martin family moved from their Virginia home that was starting to have ore blacks in the community. The killer may have had a protectionist motive in the slaying of Trayvon to preserve his racist agenda for his new neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:36 PM

The Florida law is so fucked up that a guy saw another guy breaking into his pickup truck, raced out of the house with a big knife, chased the guy 2 blocks before catching him and knifed the guy to death???

Where was all this self-defense in that???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:37 PM

This case seems to have it all. It is a fine exemplar.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:43 PM

So far it has everything but justice..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:59 PM

True

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 03:00 PM

Lighter, somehow you missed that Martin was walking back from a convenience store to where he was visiting in the gated community with his father and his father's fiance. No need to come up with a different "innocent explanation" for his walking in the neighborhood or say "we'll never know" why he was there.

pdq, of course there are many more murders in this world than this one. Certainly there are many more unjust acts. Your logic doesn't follow, however. (Bill D could probably cite the particular fallacy of your argument.) It's impossible to see them all. Do you think that this case is any less than those others? [As others have said while I was composing this,] This case has a particular combination of factors involved that excite people's interest and involvement.

For me, having a son of the same age as Trayvon Martin, it is the impact of putting myself in the place of his parents, considering what his death in such circumstances would mean to me, and contemplating our luck to be born white in this country, instead of black.

You say: "This shooting (not yet classified as murder, BTW) took place 28 days ago." Yeah. And initially NOTHING was going to happen. No further investigation. It took three days for the parents to find that their son was in the morgue, despite him having a cell phone with "Dad" among the contacts. That's just a start.

I think that this is a case that for many African Americans has added just enough heat to an existing fire to cause the pot to boil over. So many have cited personal experience of either being suspected of or charged with criminal intent without any reason other than their race, or even lost friends or relatives in comparable situations.

People have some hope that if some justice can be done here, or at least light shown on the issue, it might reduce the chances of something similar from happening in the future. Faint hope, perhaps. But worth it.

[Since I always seem to post a link, I'll link the Wikipedia page for the case, which seems to have a pretty carefully referenced rundown of the facts: Shooting of Trayvon Martin.]

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 03:11 PM

(Sorry, I should also note that the Wikipedia article collects the sometimes conflicting information that's out there: Trayvon may have been listed as a "John Doe" and in the morgue for 3 days, but his father found out he was there the day after he was killed when he called 911 and filed a missing persons report.)

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:22 PM

> It has everything

More specifically:

White killer, black victim.

Adult killer, teen victim.

Gun-toting killer, unarmed victim.

High-school football star gunned down on innocent errand.

Fatal shot fired by someone who couldn't handle the responsibility of owning a gun.

Controversial new law.

Which is supported by NRA, not law enforcement.

Florida, home of Jeb Bush, who signed the law.

Dubious claim of "self-defense."

Mysterious motive.

Shooter not arrested.

Killer keeps gun.

Shooter's whereabouts undisclosed.

Will shooter's lawyer make a statement with exciting allegations?

Bungling or racist cops.

Police chief steps aside, but just "temporarily."

First black President has to comment.

Enormous public interest becaue of all the above and maybe more.

Mediawise, it's a "perfect crime."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:23 PM

Jeri - You may look smarter if you understood what I was saying but maybe it is me not putting it across well enough. I thought 'Why does it need to be a federal crime?' was plain enough for most but I was obviously wrong so I'll try again.

Why does it need to be a federal crime for it to brought to court. In the UK a crime is a crime is a crime. Why does it need to be a federal crime for this man to be brought to court? I really want to know. Beimg a stupid Brit and all that...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:57 PM

Ya know, Becky... It doesn't matter if the kid was supposed to be in that gated community or not... That is not relevant... We don't have the death penalty for trespassing...

This kid was, in essence, arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced to death in a matter of minutes by a man with a criminal history of violence... This same man then became the executioner...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 05:19 PM

Having had time to mull over Janie's conclusion that Zimmerman was but "a little quirky" and as it echoed BillD's equivalent statement early on in this thread (Zimmerman was but "a little odd"), I realise that it's important -if indeed not essential- to contextualise such notions in terms of ones culturally determined understandings of 'normal' human behaviour.

On consideration, and based on the context of our different cultures (with all the unspoken -and often unconscious- assumptions that belonging to differing cultures necessarily implies), I suspect that my subjective understanding of "a little odd" or "a little quirky" will, and do, differ substantially from that of Janie's and Bill D's.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 06:01 PM

It may not. He was odd and quirky right up until he killed the kid. It's the action that was out of bounds, it was his behavior, not his personality.

That "stand your ground" law is terrible. I'm pretty sure that every police shooting requires an investigation, but this one might very well have just slipped through the cracks if it hadn't made the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 06:14 PM

up until he killed the kid.

By such means we might say: "he was a such a super guy ..until the day he (insert monstrosity here)
Such is not all that uncommon with mass murderers or rampant peadophiles.

"It's the action that was out of bounds, it was his behavior, not his personality."

You'll have to explain to me how you differentiate the two.

And as this is a music site: He was a sweet and tender Hooligan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECSjeTAA2Uw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 06:15 PM

Oh, yeah, Bobert, I was responding to Lighter's apparently missing that particular fact, but ultimately, you're absolutely right the fact that Zimmerman was carrying a gun meant that the encounter resulted in his being judge, jury, and executioner.

And then, the law and the police interpretation of it meant that nothing was going to happen after that until Trayvon's parents started questioning the situation.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:04 PM

I did miss that point. Thanks for the clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:37 PM

Now we learn that Zimmerman said to the police dispatcher that the kid was a "fucking coon" during that initial call to the police...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:58 PM

Are you still on the meds Bobertz? I mean like most of us learned that yesterday.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 09:49 PM

For the UK contingent: crimes are usually dealt with in different levels according to severity. What might get a traffic court or a justice of the peace trial is something like a neighborhood dispute or traffic citation. Crimes like theft, assault, drug posession (up to a point), property crimes with what we've been hearing recently in Texas where repairmen take advantage of the elderly in home repair or roofing schemes (take the money, don't do the work) or scammers are trying to live rent free in luxury homes that are in foreclosure, those kinds of things are dealt with in the city, the county, or the state. Misbehavior by businesses (poor maintenance causing injuries, not keeping food cold enough and causing food poisoning). These are only a very few examples.

Federal crimes cover things where there are overarching laws passed by the House of Representatives and the Senate, in which the Federal Bureau of Investigation may be involved in investigation. Kidnapping, some murders, crimes that cross state lines (fleeing or transporting materials, victims, etc.) and civil rights crimes. Bank fraud, a lot of white collar crime.

The hate crime laws are newer, but they are important for allowing investigations in communities where they occur and the natives aren't too keen on prosecuting their own for something they may not completely disagree with, or where the local prosecutors will be run out of town on a rail if they try to do it. An early crime that was prosecuted under the hate crime legislation had to do with the dragging death of a black man in east Texas named James Bird. Three white men tied and chained him and they drove down the road in a pickup dragging and battering him on the pavement. I think he lost limbs and his head before they stopped. Three guys were given the death sentence for that, and they were tried under federal jurisdiction.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:28 PM

Hi CS.

I hope you don't mind if I use your response to my post to illustrate something that is a common occurrence in human communication.

What I posted was as follows:




CS, I think you will not mind if I use your responses to my post to illustrate some common things that happen in human brains and human communication and that make life complicated. I think that because your posts are thoughtful.

This is the full sentence I posted: Zimmerman, from what little has actually been written about him - and very little of that little bit has been based on impressions of people who know him well - might be a bit quirky, but quite possibly no more quirky than many of us, and certainly no more quirky than many friends, relatives and acquaintances Most of us probably have, and some of whom we love.

you posted two responses.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS - PM
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM

"Zimmerman, from what little has actually been written about him - and very little of that little bit has been based on impressions of people who know him well - might be a bit quirky, but quite possibly no more quirky than many of us,"

I disagree with this Janie. Personally I suspect this person was in fact more than "a little quirky" in the same way that I see any person acting in an extreme fashion (I believe unprovoked killing of a stranger - in a culture which does not explicitly condone such actions - to be an extreme action) to be more than "a little quirky".

and Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS - PM
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 05:19 PM

Having had time to mull over Janie's conclusion that Zimmerman was but "a little quirky" and as it echoed BillD's equivalent statement early on in this thread (Zimmerman was but "a little odd"), I realise that it's important -if indeed not essential- to contextualise such notions in terms of ones culturally determined understandings of 'normal' human behaviour.

On consideration, and based on the context of our different cultures (with all the unspoken -and often unconscious- assumptions that belonging to differing cultures necessarily implies), I suspect that my subjective understanding of "a little odd" or "a little quirky" will, and do, differ substantially from that of Janie's and Bill D's.

I did my best, when choosing the words I used in my post, to convey that I do not think there is sufficient information available to draw conclusions or to make assumptions about Zimmerman or any degree of quirkiness he might possess.

There is no rational basis that I can discern to either agree or disagree with my sentence regarding Zimmerman and the available information. There is no indication, as best I can discern, that I am making any assumptions about him or his degree of quirkiness. I did the best I could to convey my lack of assumption.

You are a thoughtful person. It is possible I am a bad communicater. It is possible my unexamined cognitive distortions lead me to think I am conveying objectivity when I am not,or even more significantly, that I delude myself that I am striving with some success in being objective when in fact I am exhibiting significant bias. It is possible your own cognitive distortions resulted in an inaccurate reading of my post. The most likely explanation is we both have unexamined cognitive distortions that influence both what we express and what we hear.

That is the norm. That is being human. It is the failure to examine that within ourselves that is dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 02:58 AM

Ah, Janie ~~ but that is the bug in all communication: part of Original Sin IMO.

As the academic character Professor Morris Zapp summarises it in David Lodge's academic novels ~~

"Every decoding is another encoding".

Should be the watchword of the structuralists, the post-structuralists, and all that crew: tghen they might not spend so much of their lives answering questions that no human being would ever dream of asking.

'Twas ever thus. No way out of it. And here on Mudcat, don't we ever see it in operation, in ♠♠♠♠♠♠♠!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 09:34 AM

Thanks for the clarification, SRS, it was all that was required. It leaves me with more of a puzzle though.

We also have different 'levels' of crime. Some being dealt with by Magistrates and some dealt with by judges and juries. But as I said earlier a crime is a crime is a crime and whatever level it is, it is still brought to court. The only exception is when the director of public prosecutions decides there is not enough evidence or little chance of gaining a conviction. That would almost never happen in the case of an unlawful killing. An inquest would decide if the killing was unlawful or not. If it was, then a complex legal procedure would then decide if the person killing the other was was to be tried for murder or manslaughter. Finaly the court woulld decide if the accused was guilty of whetevr crime they are charged with.

What seems to be happening here is that someone, possibly at police level, has decided that this man is not guilty of any crime, even though he has killed someone. In the UK that would not happen. Even if it was very obvious self defence, and that has happened 3 times near me recently, it is the coroner who advises the DPP whether to go ahead with a legal case or not.

I am asking these questions with a serious worry in mind - My cousin has just moved to Floria - To a gated community in fact. I don't want to go and visit him if someone else in that community decides that I am a stranger, they don't like the look of me and they know they can get away with killing me for no good reason!

Can anyone comment?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 09:50 AM

Another case:

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/311679/28/Iraq-War-veteran-killed-widow-says-Floridas-Stand-Your-Ground-law-is-free-pass-for-mu

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 10:18 AM

I've been reading a lot of stuff on these "Castle (stand your ground) Laws" and what strikes me is that they all seem to imply that the killer can be the one who initiates the confrontation??? Even here in North Carolina the Mecklinburg Prosecutor says that if you feel threatened you have the right to kill someone... The fact that you started the altercation isn't relevant???

Summation: Kill anyone you want as lontg as you say you feel threatened and you're good to go???

There is no sanity here...

This kid didn't start this confrontation... He was just walking home... Yeah, maybe after being confronted, even attacked, by Zimmerman he tried to ***defend*** himself but without a gun he was at a disadvantage against an armed Zimmerman...

I wonder how this would have played out if it was Martin who had the gun and was attacked by an unarmed Zimmerman and shot Zimmerman??? Me thinks he would have been arrested and maybe even shot and killed by the police trying to arrest him...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 10:24 AM

Dave the G - from what I've read of the circumstances, you'll be OK - you're white, aren't you.

Big Bill got it right all those years ago:

If you's white, you's alright.
If you're brown, stick around.
But if you're black - oh brother -
Get back, get back, get back.

Big Bill was a real 'Bluesman', by the way, not some arsehole aping one.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 10:45 AM

"Speaking publicly for the first time on Friday evening, Craig A. Sonner, Mr. Zimmerman's lawyer, said on CNN that he would not use the Stand Your Ground defense should his client be charged in the shooting. He said he would use self-defense."

NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 10:49 AM

Stand your ground, self-defense??? Doesn't much matter as the basis of "stand your ground" is supposedly "self defense"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:09 AM

But they are not entirely synonymous, Bobert. "Self defence" may subsume, "Stand your ground", but has many other connotations also.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: pdq
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:31 AM

Jeb Bush, who supported Stand Your Ground and signed it into law when he was governor of Florida, says that this case does not qualify. Once the watchman started following the suspect he was not standing his ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:48 AM

I suspected that that might be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 09:58 AM

Obama:

"But my main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. You know, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon. And, you know, I think they are right to expect that all of us, as Americans, are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and that we're going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened."


And now, let's ask "How low will they go?" You know the answer:


Gingrich:

"Is the president suggesting that if it had been a white kid who had been shot, that would be OK because he wouldn't look like him? It's just nonsense. Dividing this country up – it is a tragedy this young man was shot."

Santorum:

"What the president of the United States should do is try to bring people together, not use these types of horrible tragic individual cases to try to drive a wedge in America."

Romney and Paul, the grownups in the Republican room for the moment, did not criticize the President.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:21 AM

I missed this part of G's remarks:

"What the president said, in a sense, is disgraceful. It's not a question of who that young man looked like."

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:42 AM

I agree that I find the remarks of Gingrich and Santorum almost incredible. Certainly discreditable.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:46 AM

Gingrich and Santorum are not only speaking to their constituencies but FOR their constituencies.... which is a big reason these sorts of incidents recur in the "non-racist" U.S. of A.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:54 AM

30,000 people show up in a pissant Florida town to show their support for ANYONE who will process an obvious hate crime and Newtie accuses the President of driving a wedge.............

Sadly Greg, you have it right.



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 11:41 AM

"I did my best, when choosing the words I used in my post, to convey that I do not think there is sufficient information available to draw conclusions or to make assumptions about Zimmerman or any degree of quirkiness he might possess. "

Cheers for the clarification Janie, I guess I misread / misinterpreted your meaning there.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 01:38 PM

I see now that Zimmerman now has a group of backers. They differ from Trayvon Martin's supporters in many ways although there are similarities. For instance, while Trayvon supporters wear hoodies the Zimmerman contingent just wear hoods.........................​...


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 02:24 PM

The Republican presidential candidates HAVE to say something that opposes the President - no matter what he says. If Obama says the sun will rise in the east tomorrow Newt will claim that Obama is looking toward Europe for inspiration and "Sanatorium" will make a reference to the President being a Muslim. To agree with the President on ANYTHING will risk losing their base supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 02:25 PM

Which they share with Zimmerman...................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 02:26 PM

I'm surprised, Spaw - I always thought that in the "New South" tha Klan wore business suits instead of hoods.

Maybe its a nostalgia thing for the good old days when you could do whatever you wanted with your human property.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 05:30 PM

I thinkyou're right Greg. Many of them drive Diesels for the same reason........the smell of the kerosene and all.....very moving.....


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 06:01 PM

""What the president said, in a sense, is disgraceful. It's not a question of who that young man looked like.""

Not in Gingrich's mind perhaps (though that is open to question), but it was certainly in Zimmerman's mind and may have been his motivation.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 06:06 PM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 11:07 PM

Black friend defendsshooter

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 11:21 PM

"Zimmerman, 28, a white Hispanic," --
.,,.

Eh? What sort of 'Hispanic' name is Zimmerman?

I mean, take the best-known owner of that name:
'Bob Dylan was born "Robert Allen Zimmerman" (Hebrew name שבתאי זיסאל בן אברה [Shabtai Zisel ben Avraham])' sez wikipedia.

Puzzled -

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 11:59 PM

News reports state his father is whlte *(presumably American and causasian) and his mother is hispanic, from Venezuela.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 01:48 AM

An interesting discussion on the how racism works:

Where race matters in the Trayvon Martin case, and where it doesn't

I think some of this is wrapped up in a very simplistic understanding of racism. We still, too often, act like racism is a switch -- either you're Archie Bunker or David Duke and acting as a clear cut white supremacist, or you're not.

But that's not how I think it works. Very often, people who would never consider themselves racist in other settings have very negative views of minorities in certain circumstances -- say, if they live in a high-crime neighborhood where many offenses are committed by black or brown people.

Zimmerman's father has released a statement saying his son speaks Spanish and has partially Hispanic heritage (his mother is Hispanic), perhaps to suggest that he isn't prejudiced against racial minorities because he's a minority, too. They may also be trying to make any federal civil rights prosecution tougher by pushing back against the notion that he was a white guy zeroing in on a young black male for little reason.

But even if that were true -- Tampa Bay Times writer Michael Kruse reports that Zimmerman self identifies as Hispanic on his driver's license and voter registration -- that doesn't mean he couldn't have also been someone who singled out black people for special, pejorative attention while watching over the neighborhood.

Add in a police department with longstanding frictions among the black community, and you have a story which sounds sadly familiar to people who know Florida and race issues. The state has a sad legacy of law enforcement which doesn't always treat people of color with the respect they deserve; if anything comes of this awful tragedy, it should be a close look at how Sanford police handled the investigation and their unwillingness to release material such as audio of the 911 calls.

More at the top link from Eric Deggans, Tampa Bay Times media critic; the above quote from his March 21 column here. (Sorry, I can't see how to link to the specific date.)

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 04:15 AM

Why are so many of you rushing to judgment in the George Zimmerman case?
Did you investigate the crime? No. You probably saw it on TV or the internet and automatically thought "Oh he shot a black guy so it must make the guy a murderer.

If this was a white thug or drug dealer instead of a black one, there wouldn't be a word from one of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 04:24 AM

1. There is no evidence or even assertion (AFAIK) that Martin was a thug or drug dealer.
2. If he had been Caucasian it would have made the killing unlikely to be the result of racism.

Do try to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 04:31 AM

Richard, you are guessing again, please understand you are not acting for the defence in this case, you are reading weepy stories and lies about this case from the resident hysterical liberal drama queens here and on the net.

George is a free man, now that is fact. Agreed ?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:17 AM

"you are reading weepy stories and lies about this case "

OK Bluesman - where are YOU finding "The Truth" that we haven't seen yet?

And I suspect Zimmerman will be in custody in about a week. A jury needs to decide this case. Not englishman on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:54 AM

Wesley, the fact is, the law has not charged the man, in simple terms, no charge, no crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 10:02 AM

No charge doesn't mean no crime.

As I recall Hitler was never charged with a crime either. Not that I would compare the two of course.

But for the sake of trolling no charge = no crime. And in America you are innocent until proven guilty. By a jury. So right now Zimmerman is innocent. I embrace that concept. But - Zimmerman will get his day in court. Count on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 10:50 AM

no charge, no crime

That's a joke, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 10:58 AM

Bluesman, you're tickled pink that this white man is free, but the preponderance of evidence is against him. Sounder minds than those of the local cops and administrators are now looking at the case. The wheels of justice sometimes move slowly, but they are moving. Zimmerman's defacto freedom now doesn't presume defacto innocence.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 11:54 AM

Desert Dancer, Thanks for all the great links you've been providing throughout this thread. I followed your excellent link (just above), and found another bit that I think is SO "right-on-the-money":
"These conversations are difficult, because there is a lot of intensity and emotion involved here. I often find myself having to explain relatively simple things to people in the comments section because they don't really want to have an honest conversation, they want to delegitimize the claim of racism as much as possible." [BF mine.]

This strikes me as a "great truth". We see it happening here on not just this, but many Mudcat thread(s) all the time -- and on many other subjects -- and in many other places as well, of course. All of us (with a few very rare exceptions) tend to "take in"/remember/misremember the details/"facts" that support our mindset(s) -- and to not notice/misunderstand/forget those that don't. Seems to be human nature, unfortunately...

I think the best we can do is try to be aware of our biases and try to factor them in when we are passing judgement on others (and ourselves), but this is not easy for anyone -- and for some, nearly (if not completely) impossible.

I think if I had the misfortune to be "King of the World", I would order all schools to teach this to their students; maybe have something they'd recite every day -- instead of prayers or the pledge of allegiance...

Anyway, to continue; here's the rest of the paragraph I quoted above, which (IMHO) is also extremely perceptive:
"Also too, we just don't have a great vocabulary. Everyone uses the word "racism" right away. But people can act in prejudice without being bigots." [again, BF mine.]

Finally, just wanted to point out that anyone who followed DD's various links earlier in this thread (like this one: NY Times news report: Justice Department investigation is sought in Florida teen) and saw a photo of Mr Zimmerman (scroll down a bit) would not be all that surprised to hear that Mr Z is Hispanic.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 02:01 PM

Yes, YY, I think that second quote is a good one for getting at the humanity of prejudice -- the act of "pre-judging" which we all do to one degree or another, and in various ways in various circumstances. George Zimmerman can have good friends who are black and still respond automatically with a different judgement to an unknown black person in circumstances he's trained himself to suspect.

Honestly, for me I have less of a problem (not none!) with Zimmerman as an individual in this case than (1) the police department (non)response, and (2) our laws that allowed him to be out there untrained or monitored but with a loaded gun, seeing himself as an adjunct in law enforcement.

To focus strictly on Zimmerman and assume he's a bigot limits the view of the scope and complexity of the problems here, and is a mirror to those whose view is that "of course Trayvon Martin was a thug".

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 02:35 PM

I'd just like to throw in a comment. The bounty on Zimmerman announced by The New Black Panthers is sickening and those hate mongers should be jailed for such a despicable act. I expect Dr. King is spinning in his grave.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 03:36 PM

We'll get to the Panthers right after Zimmerman is jailed for HIS despicable act, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 04:54 PM

Police released Monday neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman's account of on why he shot Trayvon Martin one month ago, claiming that the slain 17-year-old punched him in the face and slammed his head into the sidewalk.

According to The Orlando Sentinel, Zimmerman said he was walking toward his SUV on February 26 when Martin approached him from behind and attacked him after the two exchange words. Zimmerman and his lawyer said he shot Martin in self-defense.

Police indicate in their details that Zimmerman called them to report Martin as a suspicious person and followed him before the two met face-to-face, as the widely heard 911 tapes describe. Police are unsure about what took place between Zimmerman's call to them and the shooting, but said their evidence found that Zimmerman was crying for help. Lawyers from Martin's family said the cries came from the teenager.

Martin's parents and lawyer have said that Zimmerman, who is still free, should be arrested for pursing Martin despite police urging Zimmerman not to follow him on the 911 tapes.

The Martin family confirmed to the Associated Press Monday a report that their son was suspended from school for carrying a bag of marijuana in his book bag.

"We maintain that regardless of the specific reason for the suspension, it's got nothing to do with the events that unfolded on Feb. 26," spokesman Ryan Julison said.

The late teenager's parents and lawyers claim Martin's suspension and the public push back by Zimmerman's lawyer and supporters are designed to denigrate their son's image.

The Raw Story

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:05 PM

Obviously Z was not to be trusted with a pistol.

But no workable law could have kept him from purchasing one. As far as I know, he had no criminal record or record of mental instability.

That's one reason the shooting is called a "tragedy." It seems not to have been predictable.

With 200 million guns in this country, it's a credit to Americans that such a relatively small proportion of the 300 million population are shot.

Unless the state can prove premeditation, Z won't be charged with first-degree murder. My guess is it would be some level of manslaughter. There's even the possibility of "negligent homicide" (the terminology varies from state to state)if, for example, Z simply drew his gun as a threat without actually pointing it at M. It may all depend on the details of the scuffle.

The point is that, even if convicted, Z is unlikely to go to prison for life without parole.   

P.S.: Just being Hispanic doesn't mean a person can't hate blacks. (Not that I've seen any proof that Z really does.)

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:18 PM

"With 200 million guns in this country, it's a credit to Americans that such a relatively small proportion of the 300 million population are shot."

,.,.,.

Oh, yes, wowza wowza wowza. "Credit". Yay yay yay. "Credit".

                     〠〠〠Pppphhhttthhh〠〠〠

From over here, the only possible response to that is



NO COMMENT!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:55 PM

"We'll get to the Panthers right after Zimmerman is jailed for HIS despicable act, OK?"

Odd response. You convict Z before trial and say the Panthers can wait.

I think I'll wait until both are convicted. The only difference between you and I is that there is prima facie evidence today that the Panthers are guilty of a crime.

Anyway, discount and diminish my comment if you wish.

Have fun with it. gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:16 PM

If the British had enough guns in circulation for 2/3 their population, and had a significantly lower per capita shooting rate than the U.S., you'd be in a better position to pass judgment.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:44 PM

The U.S. homicide rate in 2010 (mostly but not exclusively with guns) was roughly 4.8 per 100,000 population, or roughly 50 in every million. So your chance of being killed by an American with a gun is about 1 in 20,000 each year. (It's considerably less if you stay away from drug gangs and especially if you don't infuriate a volatile relative or acquaintance who has gun handy.)

Too many shootings, but not quite like the TV shows. And remember how many guns are around.

By the way, the chance of being killed in an auto accident, also per person per annum, is about 1 in 90.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 06:50 PM

If you buy the gun lovers mantra "Guns don't kill people....." then the number of guns in the country is irrelevant, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:03 PM

True.

People with guns and other weapons kill people, and without guns a lot of the same people would still find a way to kill people.

The huge number of guns suggests, however, the huge American interest in them and the vast number of people who own one - though many, of course, own more than one. Few of them (guns or people) shoot anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 08:27 PM

Desert Dancer said:
"...I have less of a problem (not none!) with Zimmerman as an individual in this case than (1) the police department (non)response, and (2) our laws that allowed him to be out there untrained or monitored but with a loaded gun, seeing himself as an adjunct in law enforcement."

I agree completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 08:42 PM

More people are killed with knives in the UK than firearms. This has went up 37% in the past three years. It comes as no surprise that 53% of deaths in which a blade, hammer or axe is emplyed are by Eastern Europeans.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:23 PM

Here is the most anti-Martin new report I have found:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10872124-trayvon-martin-was-suspended-three-times-from-school

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10872124-trayvon-martin-was-suspended-three-times-from-school

My two numbered points above remain true.


I would rhetorically ask -

You are walking home.
An armed man who you do not know, several inches taller than you and one and a half times your body weight starts following you.
You try to avoid him.
He hunts you down and finds you.
He confronts you.

What do you do? Are you in reasonable fear for your life?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:33 PM

So what we have is Zimmerman's story which he has had a month and a team of lawyers to devise???

Hmmmmmmm???

Smells fishy... Very fishy...

150 pound kid attacked 200+ pound adult????

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 10:08 PM

no workable law could have kept him from purchasing one

In Florida I believe the only requirement for purchasing a handgun is that you're breathing- and they occasionaly exempt folks from that.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 10:26 PM

Dr. Mahzarin R. Banaji has done significant research on unconscious and implicit cognitions and prejudices.



Unconscious Prejudice is a Youtube video of one of her presentations which includes an explanation of her methodology. There are additional links found there to follow her work.

Project Implicit
allows you to visit the demonstration and research websites to try out some of the tests.

From intro to the website:

Implicit Social Cognition

Investigating the gap between intentions and actions

Project Implicit investigates thoughts and feelings that exist outside of conscious awareness or conscious control. Visit the research or demonstration websites to try out some tests and learn more about the research and yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 12:37 AM

I've avoided this post, because, as usual, I figured that it would be an emotional frenzy over incomplete FACTS.

As new stuff is coming out, I think we should all wait CALMLY till the complete story comes out.

My initial re-action was the same, in thinking that he should have been arrested....but according to an eyewitness, there DOES seem to be mitigating circumstances....so, it's best to wait...and not re-act to the media's courtroom!

Same thing happened in Arizona when the Congresswoman was shot...everybody jumped to conclusions....and they all got proved WRONG!

..and SHAME on those who have been whipping up the 'lynch mob mentality'
Shame on those who paint this guy as being all 'racist'. We don't know, and neither do you!...But, what DID come out, is that this Zimmerman character taught minorities on weekends, and tutored ALL,(White, Black, Latins) in his own home...FREE....but that being reported, we'll just have to see. Until then, it might do you well, to lay off on the hate/prejudiced opinions, till more FACTS are known.

Not jumping to conclusions,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 12:41 AM

Total crime has gone down, considerably, in the UK in the last dozen years.

But one of the most interesting figures is about the perception of crime. The British Crime Survey asks people whether they think crime is getting worse where they live and nationally. So, people think crime is getting worse - but not where they live. It's the perception gap between what we know is going on and what we think is going on. Or is that the Daily Mail gap?

• Of the 636 murders in 2010/11, the biggest single number used a sharp instrument, such as a knife, for the murder weapon
• The vast majority of child murder victims are killed by a parent - 36 out of 56. In total, 43 of those victims knew their murderer
• The same goes with total murders - 64% were known to their victim, 33% were friends
• 60% of murders are caused by a quarrel and loss of temper. Only 3% are as a result of theft or robbery

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 05:34 AM

As I said, it is not gun crime but knife crime that is the problem in the UK today.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/mass-immigration-to-blame-for-knife-culture-chief-constable-warns-6908234.html

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 06:39 AM

Ah, Bluesman's answer to whether it was wrong intentionally to shoot a blameless black youth to death is to cite an article in a known-to-be right wing newspaper from an authoritarian with a track record for views on race and to show us black youths in another place at a different time shooting a child grossly negligently (technically with transferred malice) but not intentionally targeting her.

Just how "Bluesman" does either of those things justify the intentional killing of Trayvon Martin?

I'll also take you up on another point - the only way that Zimmerman got off the last set of charges against him in the USA was by agreeing to undergo certain training: that involves an admission of guilt if not a finding of guilt. "Zimmerman entered a six-month pre-trial diversion program diversion program as part of a plea deal in that case, court documents show".

Another interesting factlet - Zimmerman's father is a retired judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:03 AM

I'm am clueless as to how we will ever know the true story here... Seems that the only person who knows it is the killer and he's already got a major PR game going...

But the things we do know certainly make the killer's version of events less than credible...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:06 AM

Nobody should post further until they've watched and considered this:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/former-reporter-joe-oliver-defends-friend-george-zimmerman-on-fox-news/

Oliver was also interviewed on CNN this morning. That interview is not yet on line.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:18 AM

Bobert,


"'m am clueless as to how we will ever know the true story here... Seems that the only person who knows it is the killer and he's already got a major PR game going...

But the things we do know certainly make the killer's version of events less than credible..."



Why not just lynch the guy, without a trial??? I had thought you objected to that kind of reaction.


"George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.
Zimmerman had claimed he had called police about Martin, whom he found suspicious, then went back to his car when Martin attacked him, punching him.
The new information is the most complete version yet of what Zimmerman claims happened on the night of Feb. 26 when he shot and killed the teenager.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. He was not arrested.
Martin's girlfriend had said in a recording obtained exclusively by ABC News that she heard Martin ask Zimmerman "why are your following me, and then the man asked, what are you doing around here." She then heard a scuffle break out and the line went dead."


http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:20 AM

If you don't care for Fox News, there's ABC.

Go to 2:15:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/trayvon-martin-shooting-geroge-zimmerman-legal-advisor-joe-oliver-interview-us-15997138

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:38 AM

Joe Oliver is the PR front-man for Zimmerman and the "stand your ground" crowd... He's been on every news program out there sounding as if he knows exactly what happened...

Was he there???

No, he wasn't but that doesn't stop him from his 24/7 spinning of Zimmerman as the 2nd coming...

Here are the facts that we know:

*Zimmerman was armed

*Zimmerman called the police to report a "fucking coon" (goon according to Oliver) in the neighborhood

*The police told him to leave Martin alone and that they had a squad car on the way

*Zimmerman disobeyed the police and followed Martin

*Zimmerman, at some point, confronted Martin

*Zimmerman shot and killed Martin

These are the facts... Everything else we are hearing, especially from Zimmerman's buddy, Joe Oliver, are part of Zimmerman's PR campaign...   

I'm not out to lynch anyone, bb... I just don't want a murderer to blow smoke up my posterior...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 09:04 AM

Forget logic, Richard...

Zimmerman has become the poster-boy for NRA-Stand-your-Ground wackos and they have circled the wagons around him...

Joe Oliver is a joke!!! He spins the mythology as if he had a front row seat to this killing... Maybe someone should ask him where he was at the time of the shooting???

This has become yet another NRA shout down... These crybabies will use anything to keep their member$ (gun dealer$) happy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 09:06 AM

I can see where this is going. As usual, establishing the facts doesn't matter. People *want* Zimmerman to be a crazed, trigger-happy racist.

Joe Oliver (African-American) says he's known Zimmerman for six years. He paints a different picture. Is he a liar?

The police say Zimmerman had a bruise on the back of his head as well as a bloody nose. A lie?

Nobody knows what Zimmerman said in that inaudible two seconds, which CNN has still not been able to decipher. He was responding to the police question, "Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?" The transcription of his reply is "Back entrance." Then, immediately, two seconds of inaudibility. The perfect opportunity for racial epithet? Maybe not.

Because of the "cast of characters," people are trying to turn a tragedy into a movie script. But life isn't the movies. That's one reason we have jury trials.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 09:20 AM

Yws, Oliver more than likely is a liar as he is going around the country as Zimmerman's spokesman spinning the heck out of the story...

Where, pray tell, did he get all this knowledge, Lighter??? Did a 600 foot tall Jesus come and tell him exactly what happened???

You must thin that people here are f'n morons???

I mean, give us a break...

As for not not being able to "decipher"... Well, even Joe Oliver says s that Zimmerman said "fucking goon" instead of "fucking coon"??? I mean, either way it is part of the facts of the story...

As for this being a movie script??? Yeah, it should be a documentary to teach people just how the NRA operates to sell more gun$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 09:38 AM

OK, if Joe Oliver is a liar and/or an NRA/police plant, that will come out in the wash. You can be guaranteed of that.

I didn't hear him say what happened. I heard him say what the tapes and the police report say, and what Zimmerman told him. I don't know whether he's spinning for a friend or not, or how much. (Assuming his friendship with Zimmerman isn't part of the alleged conspiracy.)

I'll also note that there are people who *want* Trayvon Martin to have been a dangerous thug.

Let's see where the Federal investigation goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 10:36 AM

...an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.

Guess Martin had donned his cloak of invisibility at that point, so that Brown didn't see him, eh Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 11:46 AM

I was surprised to hear this morning that Zimmerman STILL has possession of the gun that was used in the shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 12:18 PM

Bobert: "Joe Oliver is the PR front-man for Zimmerman and the "stand your ground" crowd... He's been on every news program out there sounding as if he knows exactly what happened...

Was he there??? .."

..and neither were YOU....so lay off the lynch mob shit and STFU, until more comes out!!

GfS

...and I was being polite, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 02:25 PM

"Guess Martin had donned his cloak of invisibility at that point, so that Brown didn't see him, eh Bruce?"

I wouldn't know- I WAS NOT THERE.

Nor were the people commenting here.

The quote was that a witness had seen Z on the ground BEFORE the shot. In the absence of other information, that, and the condition of Zimmerman as described by the police lead a reasonable person to at least consider finding the facts before convicting him.

This seems more like a lynching every moment. If the colors were reversed, would Bobert be so eager to convict Zimmerman??? When do we have the crowds beating up random fat white men for all being "racist killers"??? Isn't that the next part of the agenda????

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: meself
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 03:03 PM

Um - it's been a month or so, and I haven't heard of any 'random fat white men' beaten up yet. But I have heard of a random Black boy being shot and killed.

Anyway, I'd take a broken nose over being shot fatally in the chest any day. In fact, I have a broken nose. No big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 03:38 PM

So good to see you up and around bb.......I figured you were probably traumatised and spouting jibberish from the news that in an upcoming movie, "Butler," the role of Nancy Reagan will be played by Jane Fonda......then again, spouting jibberish is a sign that shows you are your normal self.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 06:42 PM

""Because of the "cast of characters," people are trying to turn a tragedy into a movie script. But life isn't the movies. That's one reason we have jury trials.""

Then why isn't he on bail awaiting a jury trial which would either convict or clear him?

The authorities have closed ranks to protect him. If he is innocent, why does he need that protection?

You can't talk about jury trial when the killer (and there is no doubt he killed) isn't even arrested, no forensic evidence is collected, and no check for alcohol or drugs.

What we have here is a dead black child and an armed white man still alive. America shrugs its shoulders.

Not much has changed since Kennedy and King.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 06:50 PM

Bruce spouting jibberish, Spaw?? Your'e being WAY too kind- I'd characterize his spew as something else entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 09:27 PM

lightner, I appreciate your thoughtful posts also.

I give up.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 09:46 PM

Here's the deal... Those of us who find this story more than a little fishy have been accused here of have lynch mob mantalities???

I mean, let's get real here...

If Martin had shot Zimmerman where would he be now... What??? Self defense is only for white people???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 09:58 PM

Being as NONE of us' like' 'racism'....Do you think the Black Panthers, offering a $10,000, (now I heard a $1,000,000) bounty, for Zimmerman racist?....or just a good deed??

None of this is ANY good, other than for the usefulness of political exploitation. Shame Shame!

Also, on the news today, it was the prosecutors who told the police to hold off on an arrest, to see if they could substantiate the charges.

Not that that matters to the kingpins of inciting lynch mobs!

Come on guys, let's not lose your heads over this...WAIT TILL THE FACTS COME OUT, before you rush to judgment, and make asses out of yourselves..................AGAIN!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 10:23 PM

These Black Panthers ain't for real...

They are probably the same two crack heads, possibly hired by the RNC, who threatened (or tried to threaten) voters that the Republicans have used as their justification to disenfranchise minority voters in every state where they could pull it off...

Black Panthers, my butt...

NRA or RNC plants...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 11:09 PM

From what I have seen the offer of a reward for Zimmerman is for his arrest, not his killing, and I therefore think that "bounty" is a propagandist exaggeration.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 11:21 PM

He's not charged, Rich...

This entire Black Panther thing is a hoax... There is no real Black Panther organization... Might be some old wacked out folks who get together at the senior centers and call themselves Black Panthers but they are no more Black Panthers than I am the pope...

Think the news media outta do a liitle investigating into these people...

Black Panthers, my butt...

BTW, I knew lots of the real Black Panthers and these folks ain't them...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 12:04 AM

There is no real Black Panther organization... I knew lots of the real Black Pan

From Obama's hometown!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Janie
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 12:37 AM

GtS and Bobert-get a room.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 03:23 AM

Padded??


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 05:48 AM

Wikipedia on the NBPP - and detailing the "bounty" as being for a lawful citizen's arrest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black_Panther_Party

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 07:36 AM

Since Greg F seems to be attacking me again, I have to point out HE is the only confirmed racist ON MUDCAT.

He has stated that a Black Democrat is a " Dumb Ni--er." in his own words.





As long as Greg F. is allowed to post attacks, I will continue to post the reasons I think hew is scum.

The following is from the thread where he proved just how much a scumbag he is:


"Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM

....
Beardie is also the guy that, in the thread about cash only for second-hand goods, wanted us to know that the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er.

Gimmie a break.

....

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:31 PM

For Max and Beardie's benefit, from the archives:

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq - PM
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:37 PM

Just for the record, the idiot behind this bill is a member of the Louisiana House of Representitives.

He is Black and a Democrat."




We have here a person who lies about what other people say, and who reads" He is Black and a Democrat." as "the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er."


THAT is the kind of person who is supporting you, Spaw.


"And the pig got up and slowly walked away"...

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 08:56 AM

I'm struggling to read your meaning into that BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 09:11 AM

Greg F reads the statement that someone is Black and a Democrat as that person is " a Dumb Ni--er."

He also lied and stated that I had said so.

Anytime that he attacks me ( as opposed to arguing the facts I present) I will point this out, and let the reader's know what kind of a person he is.



"And the pig got up and slowly walked away"... from the poem/song

One night in late October,
When I was far from sober,
Returning with my load with manly pride,
My poor feet began to stutter,
So I lay down in the gutter,
And a pig came near and lay down by my side;
Then we sang "It's all fair weather when good fellows get together",
Till a lady passing by was heard to say:
"You can tell a man who boozes,
By the company he chooses",
And the pig got up and slowly walked away.



If people here choose to allow Greg F. to make attacks, and not be held to account for his lies and racist attitudes, they have choosen his company.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 09:22 AM

Janie,

If-inz ya' noticed it ain't me stalk-eratin' GfinS... So why you gonna lock me up with her...

I mean, I can say the sky is blue and next thing ya' know GfinS has some blue clicky thing sayin' it ain't...

Now back - once again - to the subject at hand...

BTW, haven't gotten any response to my hypothetical question as to what the NRA-stand-your-ground'ers would be saying if Martin had shot Zimmerman saying he felt threatened???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 10:48 AM

BB has no point, Richard. He's developed a dangerous monomania & needs professional help, methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: saulgoldie
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 11:23 AM

Speaking of the NRA...they quickly yanked from the marketplace their hoodies with the built-in (secret) holster to fit a semi-automatic. So does that mean that from now on angry white men who pack will have to wear something else? Oh, the humanity!

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 11:45 AM

I don't think colour or race had anything to do with this case, although it is always handy to call on when caught.

Sounds like George caught a thug up to no good and defended himself and his property from attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Killed for being black? Florida today
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 12:19 PM

Greg F,

I just think those here who you are supporting need to know just how much a scumbag you are, even if you do agree with them.


You continue to attack people rather than discuss the points they bring up. That indicates that you do not have a factual basis for your opinion.

What does that say about the topics that you espouse?