BS: Romney - systemic liar

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 11:17 AM

There are (at least) two types of liar. Those who consciously tell a blatant untruth, and those who...somehow... like a good actor who becomes his character for the duration of the play, manages to lie to himself in order to advance a position.

Since we don't read minds, it is hard to guess exactly what processes are going on in the heads of folks like Romney who can seemingly hold 2 or 3 contradictory positions at once... or at least on successive days. It may be that Romney actually convinces HIMSELF that he's merely 'clarifying' a point or position.
   In any case, the degree to which he does it, in the face of bushels of evidence about his weather-vane-etch-a-sketch behavior, should be a red flag to voters.... but, as noted, those who already WANT to believe what he spouts will just suck it down....

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 10:29 AM

I think his supporters have the best descriptions for him.

So which is perfectly oiled weather vane or is he an etch-a-sketch?

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 09:37 AM

Pretty much. As I recall.

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 04:26 PM

I guess he governed moderately. Did he?

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 04:20 PM

Odd. Many of us weren't crazy about him when hewas our governor, but he wasn,t unbearable. He pretended to be a moderate, no matter what he says now.

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:31 PM

Sawzaw attributes things without links and does not differentiate his own comments from what he claims to be quoting.


Wall Street Journal

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 01:28 PM

Exactly so, Sins. And that's the problem with a number of people on these discussions. Facts to them are like Silly-Putty. They mold them to fit their own predelictions.

Trying to have a serious discussion with them is like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall.

That's why I'm spending less time here and more time doing a bit of political work in the Real World.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 12:02 PM

Reminds me of an email I received a few elections back with quotes of Al Gore's misspeaks. Hilarious stuff until I pointed out that the boob who said them was actually Bush not Gore. I included links to news articles backing up the truth.
Not fair, claimed the sender.
It was absolute truth when he thought Gore said it and obvious political BS when Bush was accused of the same.
LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 11:41 AM

You see, there goes the lunatic right again.

Barack Obama did not say that he had met Baroz. He said, from the quote, that he had had a chance to meet him. And so he had, when (according to Sorearse) Baroz visited the White House. And Barack Obama did not say (according to the quote) that Baroz was unemployed. He said that he had had three pink slips in few years due to budget cuts.

No word of a lie.

Merely economy with the truth.

That's a large part of the point of the Guardian article - Romney does not merely choose which truths and how much of them to tell. He lies.   Even Sorearse should know the difference.


Meanwhile, Robert Baroz seems to support the Barack Obama position on teachers, here:

http://articles.boston.com/2011-10-07/news/30254865_1_jobs-bill-english-teacher-obama

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Andrez
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 09:17 AM

What gets me, looking at things American from afar in Aust is just how dumb some people can be to support parties, policies and politicians whose sole objective is to cling onto or gain power and control in ways that are so patently contrary to the interests of the ordinary person and the common good. Joe Bageant traced this process and how it came to be in America so eloquently and vividly in his book Deer Hunting with Jesus: Dispatches from America's Class War.. Check it out and see how this came to be.

The tragedy is that what is happening in the US is being replicated all around the globe. Australia being the good buddy of the US has been following readily down the same sluice gate ever since one of our stupid Prime Ministers in the '60s said "All the way with LBJ". And so we did right into Vietnam. In latter years we swallowed the "weapons of mass destruction" line and landed into yet another US led mess. In the mean time our parties, policies and politicians are behaving and talking in ways that are rapidly becoming indistinguishable from that lot in the US.

Just take the current debate and policy paralysis over a handful of asylum seekers trying to get away from all the madness in the Middle East and parts of Asia as one example. When you actually look at the policies of both our major parties they are full of variants of the same neoliberal rhetoric that you hear in the US. In the end these parties are literally indistinguishable from each other apart from their particular brand of 'spin'.

In the meantime parts of Australia have a third world health service. Elsewhere unemployed people are expected to live on $35.00 a day while trying to find work that is regularly being sent off shore in the name of 'efficiency and competition' and all the while we claim that we are a first world country!

All this is happening while government doesnt blink in handing out subsidies to unprofitable and poorly managed industries that amount to little more than 'business welfare'. The local Murdoch press actively tells people here that this is a good thing and because they don't have the critical skills an awful lot of people here believe the lies just like the US viewers of Fox News do over there.

It could be worse though, I guess we could be grateful as we haven't got our own Tea Party, apart from a few wannabees, trying to 'convert' the population and set the political agenda.....so far!

Good on you Little Hawk for telling it how it is. You're not alone out there in the land of sanity and reason.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 09:12 AM

President Obama spun a work of creative nonfiction yesterday in his latest pitch for his jobs plan, fudging the facts of a Boston schoolteacher's White House visit as he cast the man as a poster boy for the hot-button bill.

"I had a chance to meet a young man named Robert Baroz," the president said at a midday news conference. "He's got two decades of teaching experience. He's got a master's degree. He's got an outstanding track record of helping his students make huge gains in reading and writing. In the last few years, he's received three pink slips because of budget cuts. Why wouldn't we want to pass a bill that puts somebody like Robert back in the classroom teaching our kids?"

Two problems: Obama never met Baroz. And Baroz was happily employed.

Boston Globe

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 07:55 AM

Most US-Americans seem to agree that their political system favours corrupt and irresponsible leadership. Therefore, the nation should discuss more eagerly how to improve that system. Many Holy Cows are waiting to be slaughtered, and yes, they can, if enough citizens demand it loudly enough.

People whose main consideration is "Will I be better off afterwards?" will get the rotten government they deserve, and probably be worse off anyway.

This applies to other (somewhat) democratic countries as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 04:11 AM

Has he been taking lessons from Cameron, or vice-versa?

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 02:33 AM

Not interested, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 02:20 AM

Little Hawk. Find something else to talk about. Please!

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 02:10 AM

Almost no one is interested in any form of the truth that invalidates some stuff they already believe.


Truth? Truth that invalidates what they believe?

This in not a universal trait. Not here, not anywhere.

Go fuck yourself. after some deliberation, that is the kindest most reasonable answer I have to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 12:08 AM

They love hearing what they already wish to hear, Bobert...and that means in almost every case that they don't consciously know it's a lie. That's how demagogues get support. They tell people what those people want to hear.

Almost no one is interested in any form of the truth that invalidates some stuff they already believe. Nor do they believe it IS the truth when they hear it.

Just ask them. You'll see.

It's one reason why I don't bother talking to people on the Internet about a number of subjects I'm deeply interested in. I would just get hostile reactions from a number of individuals who think differently about those subjects...it would waste my time...mess up my day a bit...probably frustrate and depress me...probably frustrate them too. Nothing would change, except we'd all be crabbier than we were before that interchange. Therefore, why bother?

If I was a journalist, then I'd talk about those things, because that would be my job. Here? No point really. Why wave the red flag at the bull? Why kick the hornet's nest?

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 11:46 PM

Romney gets away with it because the current Republicans don't much have any interest in the truth... Lies are just fine for these people... They love lies...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 11:27 PM

I dunno... Is it really lying when all someone does is regurgitate the lies his supporters already believe?

Romney's lies aren't meant to convince. They're meant to show that he's in agreement with those who are already convinced.

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 10:32 PM

What makes you think I'm serene about it, Amos? I do take it seriously. I'm not waving my arms in the air and screaming, that's all. You want me to get mad and start WRITING EVERYTHING IN CAPITALS TO SHOW JUST HOW REALLY ENRAGED I AM ABOUT REPUBLICAN LIES????????????

It wouldn't do anything except uselessly raise my blood pressure...and strain your eyes.

I disapprove of political lying just as much as you do, Amos, cos you and I are among those wonderful, bright, and good people everywhere who aren't fooled, remember? ;-) I was in no way implying a universal human depravity, that's just a straw man you erected to cast your bolts at. But what exactly should I do about Romney's lying? I can't even vote in your elections, you know. No matter how UPSET I get, it won't affect the results. And I know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 10:21 PM

By the way, many of us here are way too smart to be fooled by Romney's lies! Yes, indeedy. You, me, Don Firth, Stilly River Sage, TIA, Amos, Bobert, etc...we're all way too smart to believe those lies.

But...we weren't planning to vote for Romney anyway, were we? Not a chance of it.

See what I mean?

Those who want to believe Romney's lies will believe them, and those are the people he's aiming those lies at. He just wants enough of them to get motivated enough on election day, that's all. They are the people who believe Obama's lying every time he speaks. (and sometimes, unfortunately, I think he is...either that or he's quite confused) However, he clearly can't match Romney in the lying sweepstakes.

It's divide-and-conquer time once again, people. Every 4 years like clockwork. The more bitterly they divide you, the better it works. And believe me, both sides lie frequently...but when the Republicans lie, man oh man, do they EVER lie! And with confidence. Wowee! Somethin' to see. It's a scary business.

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 10:10 PM

It's wonderful that your altitudinous serenity is not disturbed by Romney, LH, thanks to your supreme, hard-earned transcendent insight into the uniform depravity of all lesser mortals.

THose of us who live with these decisions take it a bot more seriously.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 10:08 PM

If the article is accurate in what it says...and I assume it is...then I think all Romney's blatant lying will work exceedingly well for him in the USA political climate, and here's why.

Most people will believe something they hear IF it's what they already wanted to hear. Romney is saying all kinds of things to the sector of the public which dislikes Obama...and they're things that sector of the public wants to hear! Thus they will almost all believe what he's saying, and it will increase their dislike of Obama and motivate them to vote for Romney.

It will, of course, infuriate the people who like Obama, but Romney's not out to get their vote, because he knows he can't get their vote anyway. Liberal media people will point out that Romney is lying, but Romney's supporters will figure that the "liberal media" is lying.

Lies work if they are stated with full apparent confidence, and repeated over and over again. They end up being believed by most people.

So Romney is playing a totally cynical game...no surprise to me...and it's probably working just fine for him. Why should he change it? Only one thing counts in an election: winning it.

Does this make Romney and his party pretty disgusting? Yeah! But, hell, I already knew that.

Nothing about Romney's many lies surprises me at all. It's a standard political propaganda technique, has been practiced by scoundrels throughout history, and the more often and boldly it's done, the better it works. A little passion helps too. People are more likely to believe a passionately spoken lie than a moderately spoken lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 07:33 PM

Itegrity is a saleable quality these days. And it's worth big money to some.

Subject: RE: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 07:28 PM

"Romney gets away with it because he and his team realize contemporary political journalism isn't equipped to deal with a candidate who lies this much, about so many topics, so often." from the link

Interesting and downright scary. As the article makes clear, Romney lies as a matter of expediency -trusting, I think, that a falsehood will become embedded in the electorate who, when it comes to shove, will not quite remember the truth of it.

Oh, for the days when I might not agree with an individual's views but didn't feel bound to question his integrity.

Subject: BS: Romney - systemic liar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 05:01 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/21/mendacious-mitt-romney-bid-liar-in-chief