delusional american politics

Subject: delusional american politics
From: ollaimh
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 09:48 AM

i just read an article in scientific american that the coast of the carolinas is experiencing the fastest sea level rise in the world. at the same time the state senate passed a bill banning any state agency from talking about sea level rise or climate change.

i think that sums up the present atate of delusion in the united states. knut is commanding the seas withdraw.

everyone should read the book by chris hedges:empire of illusion"

people really believe fairy tales down there, and their great society is sefl destructing because of it.

they believe if you regulate the financial industry you will kill ythe economy, after the financial industry had just destroyed the economy with unregulated shennigans. they believe you can run deficits forever, and that the rich should never pay taxes. they believe in angels.

i am commming to doubt it is ever going to turn around. it can take fifty years for the whole system to collapse from within. witness the end of the soviet system and the fall of the west roman empire, and we seem to be in that last fifty years.

really guys, you can't stop the ocean by legislation and you can't pay debt by lowering taxes. and you can't allow the financial sector to run the regulations and bond ratings and expect they will do anything but steal all the money.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 10:22 AM

For once I agree with Olly. But this is BS and should be below the line.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 10:44 AM

Here is the article to which Ollaimh refers. There is a certain ostrich quality.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 11:16 AM

"That is three to four times the global average, and it means the coast could see 20–29 centimetres of sea-level rise on top of the metre predicted for the world as a whole by 2100." ~ Sci. AM. article just linked to

Words such as "could" and "predicted" are ot usually part of science.

They are best saved for sorcery, augury nor agenda-driven politics.

The oceans of the world have been rising about 2 mm per decade for the last 100 years or so, but various tides in certain ocean push the water up or down and make the change look larger or smaller than it actually is. Tides change like everything else. The real rise in ocean level wotldwide is exactly the same since all the oceans are joined as a single body of water.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 03:23 PM

Just a minor point: King Canute wasn't trying to prove he was omnipotent by commanding the tide to retreat - he was demonstrating to sycophantic courtiers that he WASN'T all powerful. He was showing them that, in the face of the elements and nature, he was nothing... just a mere mortal...

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 05:00 PM

I smell a climate change denier - and it isn't Will.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 05:12 PM

What connection have delusional American politics with music please?

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 05:14 PM

PDQ:

With all due respect "could" and "predicted" are used all the time in hard science, usually when a lot more variables are involved than can be firmly accounted for. You ever try to add up the number of variables a full-scale weather sim system has to take into account just in atmospherics? Add in ocean currents and you have a gi-NORMOUS ball of computational wax.

A

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 05:52 PM

BSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:40 PM

I'm still looking for the N in that line, Richard.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:48 PM

I just love it, as an American, when our friends from elsewhere tell us all about how fucked up our country is. Do you think we don't know it???Remember the old adage, point a finger at me, three are pointing back at you. Do you have anything good to say about America (US)?

kathot&fedup

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 07:14 PM

I'm with you, kat!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Janie
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 08:07 PM

It ain't delusional - it's about money. Big money. The influence of big money is a reality, not a fantasy, not a delusion.

Of course, I'm sure money plays no role in UK politics.

Janie from West Virginia, living in North Carolina for 26 years and counting.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 08:52 PM

Yup... NC has a very messed up attitude toward global warming and sea levels rising... Very messed up!!!

The rich developers run the the politicians who in turn run the legislation... Many other states have planning commissions that are dealing with all kinds of issues related to sea level changes... Not all the issues are related exclusively to greenhouse gases... There is a matter of jetties, sea walls, zoning, building practices, etc...

Yes, NC's official answer seems to be "Don't worry, be happy"... In other words: delusional...

B~

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Janie
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 08:55 PM

Wrong, Bobert. It is about the money developers along the coast are pouring into the pockets of legislators. Nothing at all delusional about that.

Money talks....

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 11:05 PM

GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler: "What connection have delusional American politics with music please?"

GOD BLESS YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slan go foill!

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 10:02 PM

We said the the exact same thing, Janie... I just put more sugar-coat around my response...

B~

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 10:17 PM

Fellow Tar Heel residents, I think it is about Art Pope buying the legislature in 2010.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:10 PM

Well why, do you think he can out-bid the Kochs, Soros, the unions, and the corporations??

We just have the best politicians money can buy, by golly!

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:20 PM

Its not a matter of out bidding, Its a matter of spending a half million dollars on his candidates in districts where both sides together had never spent $50,000.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:29 PM

/////I just love it, as an American, when our friends from elsewhere tell us all about how fucked up our country is. Do you think we don't know it???////

No, quite honestly, I don't think we do. Our educational system doesn't teach that--or anything else.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:32 PM

There was a brief "conversation" on CNN the other day between an anchor and a science writer concerning global warming.

The writer said that "thousands" of scientists agree that warming is real but inevitably a comparative handful deny it, just like others (or maybe the same ones) deny the reality of evolution (and just like you can find some MDs to appear on commercials for all kinds of unreliable "miracle" products.)

The anchor argued that it was "really" a "political" problem and not a scientific one, because one side says one thing and the other says another, and you never know for sure.

She also jumped on his use of the word "probably": "There's that word again!"

That's the level of scientific understanding of even well-educated people: "If it ain't 110% certain, it's fifty-fifty! Which means my side wins. And you can't prove otherwise!"

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 02:41 PM

As an American, I do feel so shamed when I compare our political nonsense to that of more developed countries - the UK, for instance with its "honest" bankers and politicians vs our corrupt ones. And Greece and Spain and...
By the way North Carolina is a state within the US. And also note - not everyone in NC politics support the legislation. Money, in this case, talks. The development of the coast is too profitable to endanger with a common sense approach to expected flooding...until, of course, a Katrina-like disaster proves them wrong.
Kind of like the mayor in Jaws. No big shark to worry about.
ollaimh? Are you a US citizen or resident? Tell us how your country is handling things so much better than the US. We welcome the insight.
SINS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 02:48 PM

With Bobert in North Carolina a state within the US. I thought maybe it just 'left field'..or maybe beyond!

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 02:53 PM

CNN anchors well educated? HAHAHAHAHAHA.

And compared to Gulf coast in Mississippi and New Orleans, the outer banks are barely developed. I've been to both places and seen them myself. The outer banks has always had occasional "Katrina like" destructive storms. They are on the North Atlantic and are often the first place a hurricane hits and being narrow sandbars with lots of open water on each side there is nothing to brunt the effects of the storm. This whole fuss is about a relatively few building permits in what has always been a dangerous area. I am much more concerned about the defunding of the public University system and the Art Pope funded "teaching" of "conservative economics" and other Ayn Randian fantasy at North Carolina State University.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 02:56 PM

Delusional Americans vs. Practial(?) Canadians??????????



"Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative government says it doesn't have the luxury of worrying about environmental matters because it has to deal with the struggling economy."

Somewhere around here is either a black kettle or aa grimy pot.


Whole Article:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1215710--walkom-at-rio-20-canada-furiously-backpedals-on-environment

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 03:08 PM

And still more:
http://www.ipsnews.net/2010/03/climate-change-in-canada-no-news-is-bad-news/

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 03:24 PM

Harper is from Calgary. He puts Alberta's short term prosperity above most other things.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 03:57 PM

The Terrifying Texas GOP Platform

Sorry to read this Texas Catters.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:20 PM

That's my point, Jack. Exactly like the NC legislature. But you don't see Americans starting threads about delusional Canadian politics. Like kat, I don't understand and am tired of the US bashing by people in glass houses.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:40 PM

I live in NC. I came from Canada. I can take it. I don't really care.

Canada does some things better. But over all it is not better than the US. The US, even the "delusional South" as it is described in this thread is better for me. If Carol & I could live in a place with North Carolina weather and Canadian health care where we could afford our own house we'd be there in a flash.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:44 PM

Hey, Jack..You might appreciate this, along with a few others:

Was listening to an author on the radio, T.R.Reid, talk about his travels all over the world, using and grading health care. It shouldn't come as a surprise that compared to all other developed countries, we come off the worst. Not only do we spend twice as much as every other country, but even more telling we do very poorly regarding outcomes. This should also not be a surprise, as thanks to our bad idea of making "for profit" insurance companies our prime provider of health care, and we are the only country that does so, the priority is driven by profit, not successful outcomes, and certainly not prevention, which would obviously result in much less need for costly medical procedures, and therefore vastly lower costs and most important, less profit for insurance corporations. Until all Americans understand that health insurance companies bring nothing to the table, contribute nothing to our health care, and in fact, are solely responsible for our grossly overpriced and heartlessly predatory health care system.

Number of American deaths last year due to being unable to afford, or being rejected by insurance corporations:   22,000

Number of bankruptcies because a member of a household got sick:   800,000

Similar deaths in Canada: 0

Similar bankruptcies in Canada: 0

But then the Canadian government is not owned by giant corporations.

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:46 PM

Sorry GfS, I have returned to my policy of not reading your posts. Saves time and aggravation.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 04:48 PM

Well, I have historically started quite a lot of BS threads criticising UK politics. Olly I think is from the Republic of Ireland.

Now, as to gobal warming, Ireland would largely disappear before the USA other than outlying regions got more than a bit damp. Quite a lot of the UK would too (including my house, on the 5 metre line) so we get a bit vexed about the fact that the vast preponderance of climate change denial comes from and is funded by the US - and that the connection with big money suggests that such denial is for self-serving reasons.

Add to that that by the standards of most of the rest of the world, what the US calls far-left is pretty much far right. And that US money tries very hard to export those standards to other countries (for example the union-busting law-firms in the UK largely came from or were funded by the USA - consider Grunwick).

Finally for this set of examples while there is much wrong with UK politics, we don't have anything like the expenditure on propaganda here that the US does, and our lobbying system is nothing like as bent as the US (although still far too bent) and although the corrupt influence of Murdoch here is toxic it probably cannot compare to the effect of Faux news in the USA.

Sorry. US politics needs more cleaning up than most other places (with the possible exceptions of Italy and Afghanistan and Pakistan).

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 05:20 PM

Now, as to gobal warming, Ireland would largely disappear before the USA other than outlying regions got more than a bit damp.

Outlying regions like this? Outer Banks Pamlico sound. That is the area in question in the legislation in question. It is in more jeopardy than Ireland or your home.

UK Government support for UK bankers did as much to cause the 2008 recession as any other single cause. Your country is not without blame, given the relative sizes of the countries it might be more to blame.

If US law firms are opening branches in the UK it is to make money. That is not part of some vast "right wing" conspiracy. You might as well blame Coke and Ford for marketing over there while you are at it.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 07:54 PM

> CNN anchors well educated? HAHAHAHAHAHA.

It's all relative. By everyday standards, they know more and reason better than probably 98% of the population.

The same is undoubtedly true at MSNBC and Fox News.

Let's not forget that part of their job as interviewers is sometimes to play the role of the "average viewer."

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 08:48 PM

98 %?

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 09:41 PM

Well that was stupid, Jack..my last post backed you up!...and then some.

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 01:17 AM

See that's why I don't read your posts. You called me stupid.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 01:52 AM

I thought you didn't read my posts...You're smarter than you thought!

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 02:04 AM

Jack, the banking crisis is nothing to do with global warming. And in any event that problem started in the USA with the sub-prime crisis and complex repackaged derivatives to which UK banks were exposed.

Look at some elevation charts. Most of the USA is far further above sea level than most of Ireland and quite a lot of the USA further above sea level than any of Ireland. And the USA is the world capital of climate change denial (and indeed denial of many wise things).

And the union busting lawfirms are not simply there to make money but are summoned by those who oppress their workers.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 07:25 AM

When Miami goes under we will act.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 07:58 AM

And if all the old folk are drowned it will be the saving of your pensions industry!

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 11:16 AM

"Sorry. US politics needs more cleaning up than most other places ..."

Especially as the US is the most powerful and influential country in the world - although for how much longer?

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 12:19 PM

> US politics needs more cleaning up than most other places ...

And the evidence for that is...?

Despite patches of honesty everywhere, every nation's politics is corrupt. How could it be otherwise?

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 06:13 PM

Politics has always contained delusional elements.

I am proud to be an American because I think the Constitution is a masterwork
of government even when it contains flaws like not recognizing the Equal Rights Amendment for women or in it's earlier stages, allowing for slavery.

Getting an amendment that prohibits corporations from masking as people would also be helpful.

We have a great document to be amended and allowing it to grow is one of America's strengths, a flexible Bill of Rights to be honored and of which to be proud.

Whether politicians honor it is another question and when they don't, to their detriment as public servants (which is all they are), they eventually will be recognized for their greed and power-hungry motives.

It is not a Christian document despite that ignorant propaganda that prevails in the GOP.

America is the home of free inquiry and the potential to explore ideas that are not censored or censured. We must be on guard against creeping fascism through oligarchy or as Chomsky puts it, "Plutonomy and the Precariat".

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 07:36 PM

I'm sorry Richard, I didn't realize that you were starting a whole new conversation. I thought we were talking about regulations in the state where I live. The elevation of my house is well below that of Ireland. In fact my home would be uninhabitable while the water was just lapping at the bases of cliffs in the British Isles. In fact I think that there are more people in danger of being displaced on the here than there are in the whole of the UK. Boston, coastal New England, New York City, much of New Jersey, Philadelphia, A million people in coastal Virginia, another million in the Carolinas, Half million in Georgia, Most of Florida, Jacksonville, Miami, Tampa Region, Gulf coast of Fl, AL, MS, LA & Texas, including New Orleans, Mobile, Biloxi, Corpus Cristi, Brownsville, Galveston and much of Houston. Oh yeah and Seattle, San Francisco Bay and the Los Angeles basin. Oh yeah, and Coastal Alaska. Oh Yeah and Hawaii, and a few hundred US island that are near sea level already.

Yeah, Ireland is the big concern. By the way ollaimh says he is in Canada, You know, the country that was one of the first to sign Kyoto and one of the first to drop it when the tar sands became viable. I think SINSULL knows where he is from. Hence the posts you made about Ireland, a stupid comparison, I thought, weren't even really relevant. Were they?

I thought you were also talking about what was wrong with US politics and comparing it to Britain. Sorry that I thought that. I didn't realize you were starting an entirely different topic where you got to set the limits on the points to be addressed.

Maybe next time you can avoid confusion by starting another thread?

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 04:23 PM

Richard Bridge: "Jack, the banking crisis is nothing to do with global warming...."

Then how come they're BOTH demanding money through fraud, to solve them???

No, they are not related...neither is your logic on those issues related to reality.
Sorry.

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 11:08 PM

What did that mean, FFS?

Yes, I accept that Ollie is Canadian. I thought he was Irish from his frequent attention to Irish issues. However, if you look at his OP it is specifically about climate change denial.

A 30 foot rise in sea level would flood more (proportionally) of Ireland than the USA. Check interactive map here: http://globalfloodmap.org/United_States

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 11:16 PM

Richard Bridge: "A 30 foot rise in sea level would flood more (proportionally) of Ireland than the USA. Check interactive map here: http://globalfloodmap.org/United_States"

Well, you came to the right thread!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 05:35 PM

It seems that Joe or someone placed this below the line where it belongs.

Language plays an important role. Notice that "Global warming" was changed to
"Climate change" to soften the reference. Even those who should know better are using the change in their framing.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 06:52 PM

"A 30 foot rise in sea level would flood more (proportionally) of Ireland than the USA."

Richard that is so far off the topic that you will probably have to start another thread to get an answer.

On the other hand, another unrelated point is that Canada is the number one emitter of CO2 per person and along with Russia and Denmark (owner of Greenland) only one of three countries likely to see an increase in inhabitable real estate due to global warming.

Then there is SINSULL's very reasonable challenge to Ollie to explain his country's stance on Global warming. As a Citizen of Canada where he is from and resident of North Carolina, the place he attacked, I can certainly say that the Alberta Tar Sands Project, probably the largest single man made source of CO2 pollution in the history of mankind on this Earth which the Governments of Canada and Alberta fully support and heavily subsidized with seed money, going to Janie's point about money is bragged about as "domestic energy" in Exxon Mobil ads here, is a much much greater threat to the North Carolina Outer Banks than a few extra building permits.

I furthermore hereby extend Sinsull's challenge to you Richard. Is the UK willing to give up it's coal industry to keep Ireland form sinking? How about the North Sea offshore oil extraction.

And speaking of Offshore oil extraction. Ireland is drilling offshore for oil and gas right now. You think they will forgo the revenue to save their shores? Of course you don't. You are not delusional. An Ireland burns peat. No, they have no room to point the fingers of others.

Does any industrial nation?
Non-industrial nations burn forests for agriculture.

Isn't this a "delusion" that is much larger than a few building permits on North Carolina beaches?

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 06:55 PM

>>Notice that "Global warming" was changed to
"Climate change" to soften the reference.<<

I do not think that is the case.
here it is explained

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jul 12 - 05:38 AM

Well, like I said before....at least you're in the right thread!

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: ollaimh
Date: 09 Jul 12 - 09:55 PM

americans do not seem to know the dangers they are creating. we are going down that road in canada unfortunately we just haven\t got that far yet.

before coming to power harper made a speach to new york financiers(the guys who brought you the biggest financial scam in history a few years later). he called canada a northern european failed socialist state in the worst sense of the word. there are so many tghings wrong with that statement i'l leave it to richard bridges to analyze that now that we are pals,

but fer instence--america now has over a hundred thousand men in private armies run by blackwater et al, that's a sea change for the very shakey democracy down south. and i don\t see many noticing.

and kat good things--well america does have a world leading tradition of civil liberties which is a beakon to the world, however those civil liberties have been abandoned by the military oil alliance of businesses that runs america right now. generations of celts fled genocide to the land of liberty for a reason(sorry i just lost richard), but it will take a major act of political will and action to overcome the military industrial alliances that runs america.it will bring canada down as well.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 12 - 10:18 PM

I think you should tend to your own knitting, especially when it comes to global warming. As for Blackwater (Xe). I'm a 120 miles from their training ground I don't think much about them.

Where did you go to school where you didn't learn about capital letters?

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 07:31 AM

Can I just point out that global warming/climate change is a GLOBAL problem? Petty squabbling along the lines of, "my country's better than yours - yah, boo sucks!" is not going to help.

But, then, I believe that the very real environmental threats that our species (and every other species on the planet) faces is partly down to the fact that, deep down, most people in the 'developed' world still see the environment as completely irrelevant - an 'externality' as mainstream economists would have it. I suspect that, in a couple of decades time, when the the American Mid-west is a charred desert, countless low-lying parts of the world are under water and the island of Britain is a sodden swamp etc., etc., etc. people will still be resolutely ignoring the environment and treating it as an irrelevance.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 09:11 AM

The US has roughly 5% of the world's population yet creates 35% of the worlds carbon...

Do the math...

B~

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 10:56 AM

Just heard a Congressman (can you guess fromn which party?) angrily asserting that 1/3 of Americans don't pay any federal income tax at all! So it's brutally unfair to ask those who make more than $250,000 in *net personal income tax* to pay *four or five percentage points more* to the IRS. Why won't that 1/3 pay its fir share?!

Even if the 1/3 figure is correct (I don't know one way or the other), what he didn't mention is that

1. those people pay no federal income tax because - according to long-established IRS tax policy - they *just don't make enough money*, and

2. even at the poverty level, they still pay federal payroll tax (Social Security), local property taxes, and state and municipal sales taxes.

And, yes, that goes for illegal aliens too. Everybody with a job gets a tax ID number and federal payroll taxes are deducted from their paycheck. Illegals can't escape sales taxes, and if they own a home they haveto pay property taxes too.

So the message to tax the poor more heavily for the sake of "fairness" to "those middle-class job-creators" who make a quarter million dollars a year and more is even more idiotic than it sounds.

Who's listening to these guys? Millions, evidently. Because (to paraphrase some of my middle-income neighbors) they don't like "freeloading, illegal welfare cheats who don't want to work."

Well, gee. Neither do I! But that very small demographic has zero to do with workers who earn too little to pay any income tax!

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 11:54 AM

To all intents and purposes, the UK has no coal industry. Thatcher shut it.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 12:00 PM

It's more like 50% that don't pay any federal income tax but the reality is that 1/2 of Americans are now living at ***or below*** 125% of the poverty threshold...

No, the Republicans ***never*** want for that little fact tpo become part of the narrative... They are perfectly happy with keeping everyone focused on ***income*** taxes...

BTW, the 50% of folks living at or below 125% of poverty pay the highest share of their income for sales taxes, user fees, gas taxes, etc. of any income grouping... Of course, the Republicans (and some Democrats) don't want that to become part of the conversation either...

B~

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 12:10 PM

ollaimh: "americans do not seem to know the dangers they are creating.


"More accurately said, "americans do not seem to know the dangers they are allowing to be created."

The corrupted party system we have now, have been bought off to allow the very things you've mentioned, to be put in place, and supported by one party or the other, while the rank and file, of those two parties, just make deceptive excuses, fed to them, by the parties, who take their dictates, from those who are funded by 'special interests' (Read:
'THEIR special interests of greed and controlling power'). They own their own private armies, have brought America(and the rest of the Western World) to their financial knees, lowered America's standard of living, preempted our laws, including those which would otherwise restrict their criminal behavior, circumvented out our Constitution, made treaties, without the consent of the people, exercised mind control, over the masses, and used fear to drive their agendas, to keep who they fear, a united America, away from the truth, so we the people, are held down to correct the wrongs, that they used to victimize us, and the rest of the world..to achieve their goals (not ours), of total control!!

The problem America is facing, is that we have been led to believe, that we are powerless to do anything about it, so we leave it to the very ones, the corrupted politicians to solve it FOR them!! This has been achieved through the process of destroying the sense of individual responsibility, for a 'free benefit'...to maintain a lifestyle we have grown accustomed, that was designed for people who have a sense of personal responsibility to achieve that lifestyle!..while at the same time, making allowances for moral decay!!!!.............and we are left weak, with no resolve.

I am sorry, to the rest of humanity who have been made to suffer, while we so foolishly let this happen. We have been disgraced, before the rest of the world's community, and to God!!

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 01:22 PM

Ya know, GfS, when you forget about all the personal barbs, you can write a post as good as any I've seen to do with politics on this forum. Agree with you or not--I mostly do in that post--it's easier to read and I end up with something to think about. Thank you.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 02:27 PM

"To all intents and purposes, the UK has no coal industry."

They had a website four days ago where they are bragging where they say they mine enough coal to provide power to six million UK Homes. That is an intent and a purpose.

The website is probably still there.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM

Lighter, yes that is the way the Republicans work. They never deal with the whole truth, just the little slices that work in their favor.


And Yes Shimrod, It is a global problem, with industrial countries using fossil fuels and a lot of poor countries burning trees for agriculture.

This little matter of North Carolina building permits does nothing to make climate change worse. It simply delays action until further research. Delusional is a bit harsh.

Delusional American politics is the Republican promise to cut taxes, create jobs and reduce the deficit at the same time.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 02:52 PM

Thank you, 999, for recognizing that the issues, that I've 'railed' against, are not done for the sake of sheer arguments, or winning something. My insults, of other posts, are aimed at the type of thinking, that permits a breakdown of barriers, that guide rational thought, and behavior...and those who promote that breakdown, so that the corruption is not so 'offensive' to otherwise, moral people....and if that doesn't work, then they work on the morality, and bully them into a permissiveness...so they can be manipulated, as per aforementioned!
Those who promote such a breakdown, are normally an insult, and an assault to the very first line of defense...and that is, clear and rational thought processes, based on a simple premise...of not infringing, or being infringed upon, the wills of others, upon the non-consenting, and to FORCE the non-consenting to live in a society, that has been rendered , both destructive to the willing, and unwilling.....and the insults that I've posted, are NOTHING compared to the damage caused by the promoters of the deception that they live under.

..and YES, the title of this thread, "delusional american politics" has become the norm of our national conscientiousness...'just give me another lie to believe, so I can go on comfortably uninvolved'.
The people in this country seemed content to watch the destruction, of everything held to be 'sacred to our survival', as long as the 'news' media makes it 'entertaining'....like a 'reality show soap opera'!

Anyway...I could go on, but it would only be 'food for some babbling ideologue' to make an ass of themselves, in the long term scheme of things.....just to promote another short term fix of a destructive sugar-coated lie!

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 02:59 PM

Jack the Sailor: "Delusional American politics is the Republican promise to cut taxes, create jobs and reduce the deficit at the same time."

Funny...that was Obama's platform....or did you forget??...or be neutered by Democrat propaganda?...It has to be one or the other. If you don't believe me, just Google up any number of Obama's campaign promises in regards to these issues. Now we got Romney doing the same thing...and now it's become a battle of lies and mudslinging!
True?..or False?......(Pick ONE please!)

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 02:56 AM

guest, 999: ".......and I end up with something to think about. Thank you."

Well, now that you may have given it some thought...what did you come up with??
I know, that those posts were very sobering, indeed, because they put the responsibility on us all, individually...and it takes away the impetus to either 'blame' someone else, or take responsibility for being such party dupes, or wait for someone else(usually another crooked politician) to do it.

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 03:47 PM

At least Obama had a valid platform whether it was reached or not.
Romney's platform is if you're poor, screw you! His wife needs another dressage horse.

Obama is no saint but at least he articulates a better position than Romney.

If you live in America and reap it's benefits, and you consider it force to pay taxes to care for infrastructure, teachers, law enforcement, firemen, then you are nothing but a dead beat. There might be an island you can move to so that you can form a government that pays no taxes and pays for everything listed above as an individual.
An island full of individuals would deserve each other. Eventually, they would have to come around to paying in to some government to survive.

Subject: RE: delusional american politics
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 05:23 PM

Romney ain't saying much of anything, Strings... And if he does stake out a position he'll change it in a heartbeat...

After Robert's decision on the ACA Romney bounced between "tax" and "penalty" like a pin ball in a Dolly Parton pin ball machine while he waited for his people to tell him what to believe...

Obama is a steady driver... You know what yer going to get... Romney??? Not too steady... he's got one wheel in the ditch one minute and the the other over the double solid line the next...

B~