BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 12:57 PM

True, Bill, but it's easier on wealthy people. If I gotta be broke on a $20 or a $20,000,000, I figure the higher figure is easier to do it with.

Besides, money isn't even the ultimate payment: time is.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:07 PM

Does Donald Trump deserve his hair?

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:20 PM

Why did Harper jump into my mind ?

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:34 PM

Little Hawk,
Laughing my ass off, and everybody else's, here, asses off, at that one, and as soon as I get up off the floor, I'll thank you...THANK YOU!!!!

Still giggling too much to type right!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:45 PM

Hell ya they do .. it takes a lot of work to figure out how to steal the retirement money from the middle class .. you think that happens without effort there bud?

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 02:28 PM

Eat the rich

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 02:54 PM

I'd sooner see it as freeing the rich. Stripping them of their wealth would just be a kind of tough love...

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 03:11 PM

It's really less about rich folks/poor folks and in-betweens but...

...about how the government hqas been used over the last 30 years to bust unions and un-level the playing field toward the rich... We never heard about income inequity in the 50s or 60s or the 70s... But then Ronald Reagan thought it would be peachy to use the full force of the United Staes government to bust the Air Traffic Controllers Union and that was like waving the green flag to corporate America that union busting season was open for business...

Since then the percentage of folks in unions has dropped from 30% to less than 10% and the wages for the working class has stagnated while management's have increased 300%...

That's what this is all about and the there are two obvious remedies:

1. Stop busting o unions and...

2. Tax the rich at at the very least the rates of the 90s...

That should correct some of the problems and would be a good first step...

BTW, before anyone SCREAMS about how much of the "income" taxes the rich pay consider these two facts:

1. 1/2 of the country now lives at 125% of poverty or less and...

2. These people pay the highest percentage of their incomes on regressive sales taxes, gas taxes, tolls, user fees, licensing fees, fees, fees and more fees...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 08:10 PM

Ain't it strange that I have debunked Saws Holy Grail survey of 58% with the 58th post to this thread???

Proof that I am, indeed, correct...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 09:27 PM

If being 'rich' is so bad, why does so many people want to be 'rich'?
How come musicians want to sell so many of their recordings?
How come people say 'rich' like it's a dirty word, instead of saying 'prosperous'?
Personally i don't care if a person is prosperous or not....that is NOT how you should be judging people..it's more of a bi-product of class warfare.
I will not participate..I'm too 'rich in Spirit' to promote hate, fear and loathing, based on how much money a person has...or not has....it's stupid. Base the qualities of a person, on their qualities, not because they have something you want, you don't have it, and you resent it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 10:20 PM

In his novel, Time Enough for Love, Heinlein's main character wound up being the banker on a new planet. Someone asked him where he kept the money. He said he didn't keep the money. He made note of who deposited and withdrew what and burned the rest because if he kept it around as money he'd have to keep counting it and he thought that was a waste of time.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 10:56 PM

The median salary for Federally employed air traffic controllers right now is $109k per year--they start around $63k, top out around $150k. They get between 13 and 26 days of vacation a year and get health and life insurance. I am a little slow, so I'd appreciate it if someone could explain where "income equality" figures in there?

The fact of the matter is that unskilled workers who work for poverty wages haven't really received much help from mainstream unions who seem more concerned with preserving and extending their own entitlements that the whole "in unity there is strength" thing.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:32 AM

Guess,999, I had a copy of the sayings of 'Lazarus Long' by Robert Heinlein. Lazarus Long, was the reappearing character in a lot of Heinlein's books. Are you familiar with the book?...If not, check it out..I often quote him!

...and did you ever come up with any thoughts, regards those two posts, in the 'delusion' thread?..I'm just curious as to your take on it. I know it's not what certain people want to confront..but, as far as I see it, it is the truth, about ourselves, and deluding ourselves into thinking that the solutions lay outside us, rather than inside us!...and the truth that is without, and through and through, would unite with us...........and kick ass!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Kampervan
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:45 AM

Now I know that semantics can get a bit boring, but who is defining 'rich'.
A lot of contributors to this thread are talking disparagingly about rich people and I guess that most of them are not including themselves in that definition.

But I suspect that for most of the world's population, £20,000 a year represents untold wealth and they would include anyone with that sort of money in this discusion.

I doubt if most people in the U.K. on that salary would think of themselves as rich.

So should it be a multiple of the average wage or is it absolute figure?

K/van

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:55 AM

Bottom line here???

1/2 of Americans live at $26,000 for a family of four or less per year...

That is insane...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:11 AM

No one here dislikes the rich. They just want them to pay their share of taxes. You know, the way they do in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 03:13 AM

Would you like to provide a source for that, Bobert? According to the U.S. census bureau, as of January 2012 the median family income was $50,020," median income" meaning half are above that, half below it. Way more than you want to know about household income trends

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 03:15 AM

Sorry. I'll try again:

Way more than you want to know about household income trends

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 08:04 AM

"Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes"

Words of wisdom from Lennie

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 09:16 AM

Disraeli, 1845

'There are "two nations; between whom there is no intercourse and no sympathy; who are as ignorant of each other's habits, thoughts, and feelings, as if they were dwellers in different zones, or inhabitants of different planets; who are formed by a different breeding, are fed by a different food, are ordered by different manners, and are not governed by the same laws…THE RICH AND THE POOR."'

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 09:42 AM

C'mon now, Bruce- dontcha remember? Ed Meese explained that there are no poor or homeless people in the U. S. of A.

Ya gotta get with the delusion, man.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 09:49 AM

I'm working at it real hard, Greg. I must be missing a piece of the puzzle. I followed how Martha Mitchell lived on a welfare payment for a whole month. No accounting for anything trivial like rent, bills, etc. She didn't see what the problem was.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:33 PM

I came this useful extension to my vocabulary in this book review today (The Price of Inequality by Joseph Stiglitz):

"The ancient Greeks had a word for it – pleonexia – which means an overreaching desire for more than one's share... The Greeks saw tyrants as fundamentally pleonetic in their motivation."
....................

Now I'll try using it.

If being 'rich' is so bad, why does so many people want to be 'rich'?

Why on earth should there be any connection between those two things? It makes as much sense as "If racism is so bad why are so many people racists".

If you want to defend pleonexia (or racism) it has to be done on other grounds than prevalence or popularity.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:39 PM

Stim,

The source: Charlotte Observer, September 2011... They did a nice piece on income/poverty in their Sunday edition... You can get in touch with them and perhaps get a copy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:42 PM

BTW, Stim, household income is a verses just looking at the lower 50% is like comparing apples and oranges...

Bob makes $100,000
Bill makes $0
Bob & Bill's average income is $50,000

Stats 101...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:06 PM

The term "average" is very confusig,and should always be avoided in these kind of discussions, because it means three very different things - the mean, the median and the mode (or middle).

This article explains the difference between them - "Mean, Median and Mode of Impoverishment: Why to occupy Wall Street"

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:09 PM

"According to the U.S. census bureau, as of January 2012 the median family income was $50,020"

Not average but median.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:17 PM

Stim: "Would you like to provide a source for that, Bobert? According to the U.S. census bureau, as of January 2012 the median family income was $50,020," median income" meaning half are above that, half below it. Way more than you want to know about household income trends".

In other words, WE are the upper 5% of the world's wealthiest!!!...and the spoiled brats, still hate themselves, and everybody around them that won't give them more!!!!!

The American PEOPLE are on the most part, caring people, if they KNOW the truth, and know of others in need....and they are also vulnerable to being easily deceived, by listening to those, who proclaim false needs to throw money at, for the deceivers ultimate goal, and that is to profit from it.

STOP TOLERATING THE CORRUPTION< even when it comes from your own 'so-called' party!!!!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM

Once again, people, read for comprehension this time:

Median income for all is not the same as medium income for the bottom half!!!

What is it that ya'll don't understand about this rather elementary statistical fact???

Example:

Bob earns $100,000
Bill earns $0
Median income = $50,000

Question: Does this mean that Bill's income is $50,000???

Answer: No, it doesn't...

The point is that when we look exclusively at the bottom half of the population the median income is a little over $26,000 a year for a family of four... With the official poverty threshold of $22,400 for a family of four that makes the bottom half of the population living at or below 125% of the official poverty threshold...

(Note: Anyone who still doesn't get this needs to enroll in a basic Stats course at your local community college... You don't even need to take the 201 level... Just take 001 remedial bonehead course... I think it's cheaper but you don't get any credit hours...)

I know, whatz credit hours???

Sheesh...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:39 PM

It's true that we are obscenely rich compared to the truly poor on other continents. Globally speaking, anyone who eats once a day is extremely lucky. It makes me smile to see articles about 'below the poverty line' here in UK. Nobody is poor here. And sadly, the terrible poverty I've seen in Africa is the result of greedy rich people, corrupt to the bone, who feed off the poor like vampires. They certainly do NOT deserve their wealth. I've seen at the roadside (in central Dakar, Senegal) two babies lying on a mat beside their mother, all three emaciated and obviously dying, while wealthy Senegalese businessmen covered in bling drive past in chauffeur-driven limos, apparently blind to their predicament. That happens all the time in many African countries. Wealth should be shared to 'help the poor struggler'. (And don't say those African businessmen aren't corrupt, because they all are. That's how they got rich.)It haunts me, it really does.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:54 PM

"below the poverty line' here in UK. Nobody is poor here."

Bullshit. Ditto for those that claim the same for the U.S.

Get in line behind

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:58 PM

"It makes me smile to see articles about 'below the poverty line' here in UK. Nobody is poor here."

I'm reminded of what Bob Dylan once wrote:

"A South politician preaches to the poor white man
"You got more than the blacks, don't complain."

Total destitution is, thank God, relatively rare in the UK these days (It wasn't always so, even within living memory.) Poverty, in which families are effectively excluded from society and from any real hope of changing their situation for the better, is sadly not uncommon.

And it's getting worse, not better. And the forces which are making it it worse are the same as the forces that help ensure total destitution in other parts of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 03:35 PM

The men who own the industries, they own no bonds and stocks
They own no yachts and limousines, or gems the size of rocks.
They own no big estates with pools, or silken B.V.D.'s,
Because they pay the working man such fancy salaries.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:07 PM

I am not sure if the comments were addressed to me or not, but I know the difference between mean, median, and mode. I was specifically taking issue with Bobert's statement that the median household income is $26k, and providing a link to data from the Feds, who feel that the median household income is around $50k.

For those who need it stated more clearly: Bobert says "1/2 of Americans live at $26,000 for a family of four or less per year..." but if the median income for an American household is $50,020, that would not be likely to be true.

Being at heart kind of a wonk, not only have I read that report (link above), I've also found lots of other info on the distribution of income(not statistical derivatives, actual quantitative data) and I've been through all the articles on income for the last two years in the Charlotte Observer--not only don' the writers quote Bobert's number, they repeatedly use the same info I've quoted and linked to above.

Please note that I don't necessarily agree in principle with Bobert, I am just saying that his facts are not very useful in proving his point.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:23 PM

We're clearly not in agreement here about what constitutes 'poverty'. But utter destitution? Not in UK. However, I try to see the world as a whole. If one has travelled a little, it becomes obvious that one person's idea of poor is another's idea of wonderfully well-off and fortunate. There is also (not mentioned so far) poverty of spirit and lack of hope. I do see that there's much of that in our society.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:34 PM

Note that Bobert uses the word "median" in one post, and when called on it, substitutes the word "average" as he repeats the same sentence.

BTW, finding a meaningful "mean" from two numbers is a stretch under any circumstances.

.......................................................................................................................

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert - PM
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:42 PM

BTW, Stim, household income is a verses just looking at the lower 50% is like comparing apples and oranges...

Bob makes $100,000
Bill makes $0
Bob & Bill's average income is $50,000

Stats 101...

B;~)

......................................................................................................................

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq - PM
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:09 PM

"According to the U.S. census bureau, as of January 2012 the median family income was $50,020"

Not average but median.

......................................................................................................................

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert - PM
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM

Once again, people, read for comprehension this time:

Median income for all is not the same as medium income for the bottom half!!!

What is it that ya'll don't understand about this rather elementary statistical fact???

Example:

Bob earns $100,000
Bill earns $0
Median income = $50,000

Question: Does this mean that Bill's income is $50,000???

Answer: No, it doesn't...

The point is that when we look exclusively at the bottom half of the population the median income is a little over $26,000 a year for a family of four... With the official poverty threshold of $22,400 for a family of four that makes the bottom half of the population living at or below 125% of the official poverty threshold...

(Note: Anyone who still doesn't get this needs to enroll in a basic Stats course at your local community college... You don't even need to take the 201 level... Just take 001 remedial bonehead course... I think it's cheaper but you don't get any credit hours...)

I know, whatz credit hours???

Sheesh...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:09 PM

Depends on the mode yer in . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:28 PM

Some folks, as smart as they proclaim themselves to be, still don't get it???

Here's what ya'll do... Reread what I have actua0lly stated on this thread for comprehension and not gloss over the points I have made and start formulating a rebuttal until ***after*** ya'll have read ***every*** point I have made...

I mean, if ya'll just want to debate an entirely different stat, fine... Just don't go think you've won anything if you have to ignore the stat that I am using that was printed in the "Charlotte Observer"...

Hint: Think of America as two entirely different population sets... The first set is composed of the top 50% in income... Forget them... They are not part of the stat... They don't exist except to bring national stats up... Like I said, for get them... Look at everyone left... That set contains the folks whose income falls in the bottom half...

Sheesh... What a bunch of mental midgets... Hey, I ain't Menza stuff but basic stats ain't rocket surgery here...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:46 PM

"...basic stats ain't rocket surgery here..." ~ B-pert

Sounds like dangerous work!

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:52 PM

I hope this settles a rather pointless argument.

The graph shows about 30-35% of households at about $26,000 or less. Are 1/2 of Americans living in these households, probably not. Are the homeless counted as in a household? The few million in prisons? Long term care facilities?

Boberts numbers seem likes a stretch, but that does not detract from Bobert's point 30% or 50% of the population living in relative poverty is not a good thing.

I say relative poverty because that is what counts in terms of the survey posted by Sawz. But Eliza and others raise an interesting point. If anyone answering the survey was below the national poverty line of their country they might think "Compared to an orphan living off a trash heap in Dehli I am rich! Do I deserve my riches? Of course I do! I will answer Yes!"

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:57 PM

Or they just might think "Compared to an orphan in Delhi I am rich! Therefore I will try to do something to reduce the suffering by donating/volunteering/fundraising etc and in my own small way redress the balance a little!"

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:18 PM

They might indeed, and often enough they do. As the saying goes "it's the poor as helps the poor".

And it's the poor as helps the rich as well, but that's more a question of taking than giving...

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:19 PM

Yes they might think that. But that would be off topic. which is..

58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth

If you mean to make this point " I will try to do something to reduce the suffering by donating/volunteering/fundraising etc and in my own small way redress the balance a little!"

Then maybe the best place to make it is not on a thread on US politics where the original poster is trying to make the very dubious point that the rich supporters of the Tea Party have the support of 58% of the population in their quest not to be saddled with a horrible vicious 39% TOP marginal tax rate. Which even though it applies to about 2% of us is both an attach on everyone's person freedoms and too trivial to make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:19 PM

attack

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 07:13 PM

My wife and I have been living on less than $26,000.00 for the past 22 years - we don't consider ouselves poor but our lifestyle is based on self sufficiency as much as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 08:32 PM

Well, I have now debunked the 58% and...

...taken the discussion to a new level about poverty in America...

Tough beans, righties...

Reality is what it is...

Mythology and bogus stats aren't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 09:32 PM

Actually, Jack, it looks more like about 19% of the households fall in that area. I don't see why this discussion is pointless, because we're trying to figure out how many people are suffering. I may be a bit naive, but I happen to think that is a useful endeavor.

I want to point something out, though, and that is that the census bureau says that, while the median household income is $50k, the median family income is $61k. What the difference is, I don't know, but I know this: the higher the median, the higher the cost of living, and the harder it is for those in the bottom 20% or so.

I happen to live in the state with the highest median family income in the country, and I can tell you for a fact that there are a lot of households with incomes in the $80-90-100k ranges that are just barely getting by-

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:14 PM

"because we're trying to figure out how many people are suffering. I may be a bit naive, but I happen to think that is a useful endeavor."

Oh I thought that people were arguing with Bobert about the meaning of terms in statistics and trying to "catch him in a lie". Which IMHO is a pretty trivial endeavor.

Maybe it is 19% , the way I read the graph there is no way in can be under 25%, unless all of the people in the 25,000 and up category make more than the figure Bobert quoted. Was it 26,125? But I will admit it is probably 30% or less.

So again, 20%, 25%, 30% or 50% in poverty is still not a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:22 PM

Yo GUEST, Stim...

You apparently haven't followed up with the source I provided you... Your 19% is bogus...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:22 PM

...and 100!!!

B~