Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 06:47 PM

A version in Bill Meek, "Irish Folk Songs", Dublin: Gill & Macmillan, 1997
puts a different slant on the conversation, more in line with the idea that this song is a comment on O'Connell's reputed sexual profligacy. Meek, a sometime columnist in the "Irish Times", does not give any further background information in this book.

Coming home from the fair I met an old woman
With a hump on her back and she blind of an eye,
The day being warm I sat down beside her,
"What news of this man?" the old woman did cry.
"Sure there's no news at all," replied the bold trabeller,
"Except that I'm wishing he never had been,
Concerning our hero brave Daniel O'Connell,
Who's now making children in Dublin by steam."

"O tanam on dia," [sic] replied the old woman,
"O children, a gra, are you crazy at last,
Or is it a sign of a war of rebellion,
O what is the reason they're making so fast?"
"It is not a sign of a war or rebellion,
But that this generation has grown too small --
And they're going to petition the new Lord Lieutenant,
So as not to depend on the old style at all."

"Oh, there's good men in Ireland as well as in England,
Stout-hearted young fellows by land and by sea,
And if all the young women of Ireland were like them,
O'Connell could throw his steam engine away.
But they are so pugnacious likewise vivacious[!],
When a young man comes near them they'll spit in his eye,
Which is why they all go as old maids to the corner,
Not a child for to pray for their soul when they die."

"I am an old woman of three score and ten,
With a hump on my back, ne'er a tooth to be seen,
If the rogue does provoke me I'll lay down a wager,
Sure I'll make better children than him and his steam.
Oh, there's good men in Ireland as well as in England,
Stout-hearted young fellows by land and by sea,
And if all the young women of Ireland were like them,
O'Connell could throw his steam engine away."

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: David Ingerson
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:44 PM

I heard Paddy Graber sing this song about 1981. I don't think he got it from the DT!

David

Subject: Tune Add: DANIEL O'CONNELL
From: Felipa
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 06:13 PM

tune for verses posted 21 Nov 02, copied from DT study thread, where the tune for the DT version (see first version on this thread) can also be found. (I think the stanzas need to be aligned better. but you should still be able to make it out)

X:1
T:Daniel O'Connell (2)
N:from Bill Meek, "Irish Folk Songs", 1997
I:abc2nwc
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:E
z4B B|e2E2E2|G2F2E2|B2B2B2|G E3EE|
w:Com-ing home from the fa-ir I met an old wo-man With a A2A2A2|G2B2G2|D2G2B2|c4B2|e2E2E2|
w:hump on her back and she blind of an eye,The day be-ing (G2F2)E2|B2B2A2|G E3E2|A2A2A2|G2B2G2|
w:warm_ I sat down be-side her,What news of this Man? the old F2E2E2|E4B B|A2f2f2|(f2e3)f|g2e2e2|
w:wo-man did cry.Sure there's no news at all_re-plied the bold c2B2B2|B2f2f2|f2e2f2|g2e2e2|e4(ef)|
w:trav-ler,Ex-cept that I'm wish-ing he ne-ver had been,con_
g2g2f2|e2B2B2|c2e2c2|B2G2E2|A2A2A2|
w:-cer-ning our he-ro brave Dan-iel O'-Con-nell,Who's now mak-ing
G2B2G2|F2E2E2|E4z2
w:chil-dren in Dub-lin by steam.

Subject: Tune Add: DANIEL O'CONNELL
From: MMario
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 06:23 PM

sorry - don't know what happenned to half my line breaks!

X:1
T:Daniel O'Connell (2)
N:from Philippa
I:abc2nwc
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:E
z4B B|e2E2E2|G2F2E2|B2B2B2|G E3EE|
w:Com-ing home from the fa-ir I met an old wo-man With a A2A2A2|G2B2G2|D2G2B2|c4B2|e2E2E2|
w:hump on her back and she blind of an eye,The day be-ing
(G2F2)E2|B2B2A2|G E3E2|A2A2A2|G2B2G2|
w:warm_ I sat down be-side her,What news of this Man? the old
F2E2E2|E4B B|A2f2f2|(f2e3)f|g2e2e2|
w:wo-man did cry.Sure there's no news at all_re-plied the bold
c2B2B2|B2f2f2|f2e2f2|g2e2e2|e4(ef)|
w:trav-ler,Ex-cept that I'm wish-ing he ne-ver had been,con_
g2g2f2|e2B2B2|c2e2c2|B2G2E2|A2A2A2|
w:-cer-ning our he-ro brave Dan-iel O'-Con-nell,Who's now mak-ing
G2B2G2|F2E2E2|E4z2
w:chil-dren in Dub-lin by steam.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: MMario
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 06:25 PM

!! I double checked the dang things!

Subject: Larry O'Gaff
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:49 AM

Oddly, I have yet to encounter a variant of the tune "Larry O'Gaff" or its spawn "Daniel O'Connell", "Humours of Whiskey" or "Squid-Jigging Ground" which actually fit the lyrics of the song "Larry O'Gaff" as given in broadsides (as at the Bodley or American Memory). In particular, the original tune must have included a couple extra notes at the end of most lines, and a third section for the chorus.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: olddude
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:00 AM

I was never a member of member of parliament
nor did I ever have a steam engine

Dan

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 01:22 PM

olddude,

Neither was I nor did I - but the man of whom we write was - even if he didn't!

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: olddude
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:15 PM

Martin
I am teasing because that is my name
:-)

Of course like a zillion other O'Connell's we are say we are related right

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 07:34 AM

And, given his reputation, you may well be! ;>)

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 09 - 05:55 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLlUweP0ayM

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: GUEST,Margaret
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 02:12 PM

I think the 'as many as Dan' should actually be 'as many as damn', since that's a catchphrase meaning broadly 'a helluva lot'. Whether it would have been Bowlderised to 'Dan' in the early 1800s I don't know.

I first heard the song from the Dubs singing, on the 25th anniversary album and found it hysterically funny. It seemed to me to be a music-hall comic song about how laughable rumour can become as people, working from fragments of information for which they have no context, sensationalise them when they pass them on. In this case the tinker, who's illiterate, hears about the steam engine being the making of future generations, but has no idea what that means. So he "fills in the gaps", saying that it's about making babies by steam because that makes it a better story than just passing on the bare bones of what he heard.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:13 AM

This is our note to the version included in our colltion, due to go up on Clare County Library website shortly.
Jim Carroll

Daniel O'Connell and the Tinker – (Roud 2313) Vincie Boyle
Also known as 'Daniel O'Connell Making Babies by Steam', a reference to the fact that he had eleven children, though only seven survived.   
The supposed deeds of Daniel O'Connell were popular subjects for both songs and stories in the oral tradition, particularly concerning his skill and fairness as a barrister. There are dozens of stories of his supporting the poor or hard-done-by – we recorded several from Travellers, including one from O'Connell's home town of Caherciveen0. A good example of the stories can be found on the album 'Around the Hills of Clare' from reciter Patrick Lynch (son of singer Nonie Lynch), where O'Connell enters into a battle of words with a well-known Dublin street trader. A note to a version of this song, recorded in Canada from Ontario singer O.J. Abbott confirms that his reputation and popularity was also a part of the oral tradition there.
O. J. Abbott's and Antrim singer Joe Holmes's versions are the only two included in the Roud index as having been recorded from source singers.
Daniel O'Connell (1775-1847) was a famous figure in Irish history, but this particular phase of his career seems to have been overlooked by his biographers. A brilliant lawyer, he is best known as the founder of the powerful Catholic Association whose pressure led to the Catholic Emancipation Act of 1829. However, O'Connell was the kind of man who inspired legends, and many equally fantastic tales were told about him throughout the Irish villages. He was also the subject of innumerable broadsides: the Henry Bradshaw collection has no less than three dozen mentioning him in their titles, including 'Drink a health to O'Connell,' 'Famed O'Connell the Shamrock shall wear,' 'Land of Shillelagh and Brave O'Connell,' 'New Song on the O'Connell Monument,' 'O'Connell's Welcome to Parliament,' and 'O'Connell and the two Irish Tinkers.' The reference to "Her Majesty" in the last stanza indicates that this ballad must have been composed between 1837 when Queen Victoria came to the British throne and 1847 when O'Connell died—but it is hard to understand why an Irish patriot would have been so anxious to raise men for a British sovereign. Certainly the people of Ireland did give O'Connell their earnings "though needing it bad": out of their poverty they contributed one penny a month to his Catholic Association, which brought in an income of fifty thousand pounds a year. And in the famine period of the 1840's the "children of Ireland" were undoubtedly small and puny."
Refs:
Traditional Songs and Singers from Ontario.   Edith Fowke (collector and editor) Folklore Associates 1965
Joe Holmes - Here I Am Amongst You - Len Graham, Four Courts Press 2010

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:23 AM

Much searching has failed to unearth any statement by O'Connell that the steam engine would be "the making of future generations."

I'd welcome proof that he said it, but it sounds too good to be true.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: GUEST,Noreen
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM

Margaret, 'as many as Dan' refers to the people sending as many babbies to Her Majesty, produced in the traditional way, as Dan (Daniel O'Connell) can send, supposedly made by steam.

I've heard the line as We'll be able to send her a lot more than Dan.

(I've also never heard the phrase 'as many as damn', being used to mean broadly 'a helluva lot'.)

Great song!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: GUEST,Dale O'Donnell Sease
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 09:58 AM

I found the entire thread very interesting. Just so you know, it's being read lo' these many years later. I am listening to The Dubliner's 25 Years - a Celebration. Terrific album, which I bought in Dublin in 1987 at a record shop. I copied it to disc a few years ago and play it every St. Patrick's Day for my friends and family and more often for myself. Thanks for the history lesson.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 11:08 AM

O' Connell was the subject of many dozens of tales - Irish folklorist Ríonach Uí Ógáin devoted a book to Him and his place in the Irish Tradition (Immortal Dan).
We recorded several from Irish Travellers in London, but this was one we got from a local man, Patrick Lynch of Mountscott, Mullagh, County Clare.
Jim Carroll

BATTLE OF BILLINGSGATE (RECITATION)

Patrick Lynch;
Mount Scott; 22 July 2003.
In O'Connell's time in Dublin, there lived a woman by the name of Biddy Moriarty who owned a huckster's stall in one of the quays almost opposite the Four Courts.
She was a virago of the worst order; very able with her fists, but even more formidable with her tongue. From one end of Dublin to the other she was notorious for her powers of abuse, and indeed, even in the provinces some of Mrs. Moriarty's language had passed into currency. The Dictionary of Dublin slang had been considerably enlarged by her and her voluble impudence had almost become proverbial.
Now some of O'Connell's friends decided that O'Connell could beat her at the use of her own weapons. Of this however, O'Connell was not too sure, as he had listened once or twice to a few minor specimens of her Billingsgate. It was mooted once where the young Kerry barrister could encounter her, and some of the company, rather too freely, ridiculed the idea of O'Connell being able for the famous Madam Moriarty.
Now O'Connell never liked to be made little of, so then and there he professed himself ready for the encounter, and he even backed himself in the match. Bets were offered and taken and it was decided that the contest should take place at once. So the party immediately adjourned to the huckster's stall, and there was the woman herself superintending the sale of some small ware, a party of loungers and ragged idlers from about, because, by now, Biddy, in her own way, was one of the sights of Dublin
O'Connell began the attack.
"How much do you want for the walking stick Mrs. erm - erm – erm – erm - what's-your-name?"
"Morairty is the name sir, and a fine one it is; have you anything to say agin it? It's one and sixpence for th'ould walking stick and, throw up sure, 'tis as cheap as dirt" (?)
"One and sixpence for an old walking stick; whew – why you're nothing short of an impostor to go charging eighteen pence for an ould stick that cost you tuppence".
"Tuppence; tuppence your grandmother; are you saying 'tis cheating the people I am; impostor yourself".
"Oh, I object", says O'Connell, "as I am a gentleman".
"Gentleman; hee –hee, gentleman, gentleman", says Biddy, "the likes of you a gentleman; why you potato-faced pippin-sneezer; when did a Madagascar monkey like you ever pick up enough common, Christian decency to lose your old Kerry brogue?"
"Easy now, easy now", says O'Connell, in imperturbable good humour, "don't go choking yourself on such fine words, you whiskey drinking old parallelogram".
"What's that you called me, you murdering villain", roared Biddy.
"I called you", says O'Connell, "a parallelogram, and a Dublin judge and jury will swear 'tis no libel".
"Oh hanam 'on Diabhal*, oh holy St Bridget, that an honest woman like me should stand here and be called one of them parally – parally – parally bellygrums to her face; I'm none of your parally bellygrums, you rascally gallows-bird; you cowardly, sneaking, plate-licking blaggard".
"Oh no", says O'Connell, "and I suppose you'll deny you keep a hypotenuse in your house".
"'Tis a lie for you", says Biddy, "I never heard such a thing".
"But sure", says O'Connell, "all your neighbours know, not only do you keep a hypotenuse, but you have two diameters locked up in your garret and you take them out for a walk every Sunday".
"Oh, by all the saints, you hear that for talk, from one who claims to be a gentleman. Well, the divil fly away with you, you mitcher from Munster, and make celery sauce of your rotten limbs, you mealy mouthed tub-o-guts".
"Arrah; you can't deny the charge", says O'Connell, "you hapless old heptagon".
"Why, you nasty little tinker's apprentice", says Biddy, "If you don't mind your mouth I'll – I'll – I'll – I'll…."
But here, here boys she gasped for breath, unable to hawk up any more words. But O'Connell carried on the attack.
"While I have a tongue in my head I'll abuse you, you most inimitable poritory; look at her boys; there she stands; a convicted perpendicular in petticoats, and there's contamination in her circumference and she trembles with guilt right down to the extremities of her corollaries; ah, you're found out, you rectilinial antecedent of an equiangular old hag; you porter-swiping similitude of a bisection of a vortex".
Poor old Biddy was dumbfounded, and she only reached behind her on the shelf and took hold of a skillet and took aim at O'Connell's head.
So O'Connell beat a hasty retreat. But it was agreed by one and all that O'Connell had won the battle of Billingsgate.

*Hanam 'on Diabhal – Your soul to the Devil.

Daniel O'Connell, (1775-1847), political leader and leading opponent of The Act of Union, was renowned for his quick wit and his debating abilities and is said to have featured in the Irish oral tradition more than any other historical figure.
An excellent and extremely entertaining account of the folklore surrounding him is to be found in Ríonach Uí Ogáin's 'Immortal Dan' (Geography Publications, Dublin).

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 11:39 AM

Foster and Allen called it "Making Babies by Steam"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 01:14 PM

I've transcribed a version by Luke Kelly (who learned it from Liam Clancy according to Leeder's comment back in 2002!)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vlKNA275BH1pVFLDpmQEzBBSxTwzlmp6NPr8xge2CXA

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: meself
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 05:55 PM

Jim - Thanks for putting up the Battle of Billingsgate - it's remarkable that it could be done as a recitation!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: Gabriel
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:01 PM

Nobody, I think, has mentioned that the song, under the title "Dan O'Connell or Morris O'Donnell Hatching Chickens by Steam", is in a broadside ballad dated 5th August 1871. It's viewable online in the Bodleian Library collection.

Subject: Lyr Add: HATCHING CHICKENS BY STEAM
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 06:49 PM

Thanks for the tip, Gabriel.
Here it is, from the Bodleian Collection:


DAN O'CONNELL OR MORRIS O'DONNELL.
HATCHING CHICKENS BY STEAM.
Tune—Original.

Ye lovers of mirth, I pray give attention
And listen to me; the truth I'll declare.
It's what happened [to] me just the other evening
As I was coming home from the fair.
Crossing the moor I beheld and old woman.
She sat in a gap and was milking a cow,
And the song that she sang was "The Boughel of Durham,"
Or some other ditty; I can't tell you now.

I had not sat long to discourse the old woman
When a jolly tinker by chance came that way.
The evening being warm, he sat down beside us.
"What news, honest man?" the old woman did say.
"Oh, no news at all," replied the bold tinker.
"Only one thing I wish that never had been:
It is that great hero they call Morris O'Donnell.
He is now making children in Dublin by steam."

"Oh, children, Agrah!" replied the old woman.
"Old hanna, man jowl! Is he crazy at last?
Or is there a sign of war and rebellion?
Or what is the reason he wants them so fast?"
"Oh, there's no sign of war," replied the bold tinker,
"But the children of Ireland are wonderful small,
So he sent a petition to the great Lord Lieutenant
To keep us from getting them the old way at all."

"His soul to the devil!" replied the old woman.
"Oh, he is a rascal, and he is nothing else.
Or how can he leave such reflection upon us,
Or does he remember how he came himself?
Oh, the rascal! he thinks that we will believe him,
And then he will think, I am sure, it's no sin.
It would be far better he'd leave off his ould capers,
And send us our parliament house back again.

"But it's I'm an old woman, three score and six,
Not a tooth in my head it's plain to be seen,
And if the rogue would provoke me, sure it's I'd lay a wager
I'd make better children than him and his steam."
"Long life to your courage," replied the bold tinker,
"And long may you live, ma'am, with truth on your side,
For if all the young girls in Ireland were like you
Morris O'Donnell might throw his steam-engine aside."

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:09 AM

I can spell weird (proofreading my 24 May 03 comment)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine
From: Felipa
Date: 01 Apr 24 - 05:31 PM

not mentioned in this thread yet, but in the DT and in the DT study thread for the song: " Children by Steam has always reminded me of Jonathan Swift's "Modest Proposal" to relieve hunger and poverty by eating Irish children. http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html "

in this song reference is made to the Irish as cannon fodder, "is there sign of a war ... or what is the reason she wants them so fast?*

another possible implication of the song is that for some time after the Irish famine, people were marrying very late for financial reasons and because they didn't want so many children