BS: Right wing Relatives

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,A regular
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 06:10 PM

I was once elected to a town council. The town was small enough that everyone knew everyone or about everyone. When I was approached on the street with a complaint about this or that I would say, "My memory might get some of this wrong. Would you be kind enough to put the complaint in writing, sign it, drop it at my place or the town office and I will be sure to bring it before council." Never heard a thing.

When relatives or friends have brought up politics or religion in my place, I have on occasion said, "I don't wanna hear this bullshit but I will read it. Would you write it for me?" Nhat.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 05:52 PM

We've had that S*********r person illustrating the problem. Fortunately it's a lot easier here just to ignore that kind of unwanted guest than it is in a real family situation.

But the same principle applies as with online trolls - the safest thing to do probably is to assume it's coat-trailing to annoy and provoke, and refuse to reward it.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 12:30 PM

John P. Just joking. I was serious when I initiated this thread, but never expected it to last so long, and morph into something entirely different. Just strikes me funny. Thanks, Elmore

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John P
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 11:41 AM

But, What about my stepson?

Tell him that political comments are off limits in your house.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 07:48 PM

But, What about my stepson?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Songwronger
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 07:43 PM

I prefer to discuss policies with the people I meet instead of personalities. When Bush was president he expanded the federal governdment. I would talk to right-wingers about their positions, then point out how Bush had violated every tenet they believed in, like smaller government.

Same with Obama. Sure he's a socialist, but he's a national socialist (nazi). He's in the pocket of the corporations and the banks. Witness how his Obamacare imposes a murderous tax on the poorest ten percent in America. Hitlerian. For the good of the insurance companies' financial statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John P
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 10:28 AM

For me, the big difference on whether to engage with family members (or friends and co-workers) who disagree with me politically is whether or not they can carry on a rational discussion. I'll usually give someone one chance to answer questions or otherwise support what they say, and if they can't or won't, I simply don't try to have further discussions with them. When they say things that are strong enough to leave me feeling bad if I don't respond, I just say, "I disagree" and leave it at that.

I'm not sure what I would do if they were in my house and saying destructive or hateful things and I didn't feel like I was able to respond. That would be an intolerable situation and would need to get fixed in one way or another. The usual way is to demand silence on the subject from all parties. Anyone who can't keep a civil tongue in their head while in someone else's house shouldn't be catered to emotionally.

Many years ago, I told my then wife that her biological father wasn't welcome in our house again. Fortunately, she was as pissed at him as I was so she accepted it. He peppered his right-wing political speech with the most offensive and far-ranging bigotry I've ever heard. Her adopted "real" father, on the other hand, was a hard right militaristic conservative who I loved dearly and with whom I had many polite conversations in which we disagreed completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 08:48 AM

Would one of our illustrious mods please change the title of this thread to "Ad hominem and other personal attacks", please.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 08:15 AM

sorry to interrupt you pedantic squabblers by returning to the question here of how to deal with family members with whom you disagree. you lot do seem familiar with each other, yet don't listen to each other's points-are you by any chance related?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:33 PM

More & more cogently expressed, dear old Bridgey.

Whisper: Tell me, are you on something ~~ or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:22 PM

Feeble, Myer. Pwned.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:19 PM

"How is this compatible with your having , back when you used to read my Folk Review columns,   "be[en] astonished from time to time that an intelligent person could hold such views" [your post of 6 aug 0705am]. Why should he not, if, as you now say, you do not find such views intrinsically despicable?"

That just doesn't follow. I am sure that most people can't understand why other people like all kinds of things, or hold all sorts of beliefs, but I doubt if too many would would jump from that to deciding that those things and those beliefs must necessarily be "intrinsically despicable".

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:10 PM

I might have to deal with my stepson next week before he returns to Denver.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:44 PM

My, what a valuable and meaningful contribution to the discussion, Bridge!

[Anyone out there the remotest conception of what he is on about?]

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:28 PM

Tax and spend? Yes.

Myer - a characterisation optimistic on your part but without basis or rationale. You are sunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:49 PM

"I do not believe that all right-wingers are "all such despicable forms of lowlife that we have no need even to pretend to treat you or your views with any sort of respect or consideration." In face to face debate I have frequently made the point that that attitude is counter-productive and will in fact prevent the people so accused from listening to the points the speaker wishes to make."
.,,.
Just as a question arising from this: How is this compatible with your having , back when you used to read my Folk Review columns,   "be[en] astonished from time to time that an intelligent person could hold such views" [your post of 6 aug 0705am]. Why should he not, if, as you now say, you do not find such views intrinsically despicable?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:06 PM

Sincere thanks for so reasoned and courteous a response, Marianne. I hope you may return in a few days, to develop some points, to which I might rejoin, and some sort of productive interaction might ensue. In fairness to myself, I think I must say that made no such assumptions as postulated in your sentence above about your 'personal circumstances'. You must admit you did positively decline to answer on the plea of the impenetrability of my 'carapace of certainty'.

Still, let us proceed from here, as time and commitments may permit.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:49 AM

"that is where I feel you put your finger on the weakness of your left-orientated position; which seems to me [correct me if I am wrong] to be predicated on the postulate that morality and leftwing views are in some way synonymous or identical"

Ah - 'correct me if I'm wrong'.

You're wrong. Consider yourself corrected.

Since you are unaware of my personal circumstances, you cannot assume that if I do not reply I am refusing to answer your questions. You might, for example, take into account the possibility that because of other commitments my visits to Mudcat are of short duration and do not occur on a regular basis.

Yes, I am left-wing. Yes, I am aware of the record of far-left governments. Yes, it saddens me that it has so far been impossible for a nominally far-left government to behave with humanity towards their citizens. Yes, it saddens me that revolutions have always so far fallen into the hands of the self-interested.

No, I do not believe that we should therefore sign resignedly and give up the fight for justice and fairness.

No, I do not believe that all right-wingers are "all such despicable forms of lowlife that we have no need even to pretend to treat you or your views with any sort of respect or consideration." In face to face debate I have frequently made the point that that attitude is counter-productive and will in fact prevent the people so accused from listening to the points the speaker wishes to make.

Yes, I am depressed when debate turns into childish insults and name-calling.

Please do not assume that your response to this, if any, is being ignored because I do not respond immediately. I am unlikely to have time for Mudcat for the next few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:27 AM

Marianne ~ please see my post of 6 Aug, 0930 am, which had an implied interrogative tone, I thought, and took up points you had made; but which you refused to respond to on the plea of my 'carapace of certainty'; which I have since questioned as to whether you have not yourself demonstrated something of the same sort [today 0552 am].

I should be happy to debate courteously with you; and thank you again for recalling my 'elegant prose': but cannot feel you do your argument any credit by falling back on refusals to answer because my postulated but non-existent 'carapace' is so allegedly 'impenetrable'.

I say again that I do not admit to having expressed myself in any tone of dogmatism or certainty greater than that demonstrated by any other poster to this thread ~ yourself included.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:12 AM

MGM -"If I might be permitted a speculation as to what might be the answers of Mr Woodson & Ms Marianne.S to the questions I have put to them"

I am unable to find any questions which you have asked and I have not answered. Please repeat same.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:55 AM

Richard, in the days when Mike went to uni, it was as he said grant aided. Said grant was not automatic, and was still means tested.
However the salient point is this, in those days there were only about 48 "Universities", whereas now there are over 400, (alleged) universities. Since it was decided to turn everything including the local toilets into a university, (Pee HD?)the grants required overtook the budget allocated, and therefore charges had to be made. I agree that it's sad that it's come to that, but it has been the norm in many countries for years, and people still managed to get through their courses.
Unless of course you'd rather they upped your taxes to pay for it ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:51 AM

Very facile, Mr Bridge. I had expected better of you in justification of such an accusation; but I must evidently have overrated your intellectual abilities. Pity.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:42 AM

You defend them, Myer, from the "lefties" - there is enough in your dislike of opposition to and sneering at "lefties" to vindicate my charge. Those who are not with us are against us.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:53 AM

Gold medal for the To-Conclusions Jump!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:33 AM

Sorry Mr M, but you misrepresent me yet again. Nowhere in this or any other correspondence have I suggested that you couldn't do hard physical manual labour. I said that I couldn't imagine.

Anyway, thanks for the correction. Your stint of sweating your brow was of course four months, not two years. Roughly from about now until Christmas in fact.

BTW., I've got nothing against people having been born with silver spoons in their mouths. It would hardly have been their fault when all's said and done. What I detest is the heritage of racial/biological/cultural Superiority which so many such people thought this gave them; and that the rest of us deserved the hovels and heartbreak to which our lowly status befitted us.

And your old man never rose to anything more than deputy editorship of a small specialised newspaper? There was me thinking you were one of the bourgeoisie. By all the riches in the kingdom of heaven, as one of my Gaelic speaking forebears might not have said, We surely do live and learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:15 AM

anybody else read naomi klein's 'shock doctrine' detailing the strategies of milton friedman's chicago boys and their attempts to export shock capitalism to economies they don't approve of across the world? started with support for pinochet, and with the help of reagan and thatcher has developed since then with all the upheavals and misery of the free-market adventure that we have become used to - from south america, far east, soviet union, poland etc and now uk and usa. i've always looked at things from a left perspective but had never realised the extent of the viciousness and mendacity of global capitalism. i'm shocked on every other page - a real horror story.

it seems there is no ordinary person around the world who benefits from this and no-one outside the 1% who is prepared to support it. yet it has become the model and only system that we must accept. why? many countries are democracies - why have we let that power be stolen from us? why aren't we more angry? next thing there will be financiers from the IMF in the cabinet, sidelining the wishes of old democracies like greece. oh.....

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:11 AM

Not aware of having made any such defence, Bridge. Can you point me to anything I have posted which could be so interpreted ~ at any hour of the day?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:06 AM

Sorry about the name, Myer. At the end of the day you defend those who take from those less fortunate than themselves. To do that or to defend it cannot morally be justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:02 AM

I didn't say it did so 'qualify' me, Owen. I have no wish to be regarded as a HHSOT as such. But you averred that I could *never* have performed such tasks; and I am here to tell you that, during Nat Serv, esp in the first 4 months or so, one is required to perform many such. And I did them; & survived. I had had to do them at various youth camps previously, for that matter, which I never silverspooned out of. Had there been any silverspoon, such would presumably have choked me ~~ tho we all, whatever background, had to do them. But you still haven't justified your silverspoon accusation, either, have you?

I greatly respect your educational efforts and achievements. Please do not imagine I don't. But why such vituperative and immoderate and [I will use the word again] spiteful despising of anyone to whom they were not altogether so necessary? I can't help my father having happened to be a journo rather than an engine-driver or a miner, can I? And my education was far from silver-spoon, as I have pointed out ~ entirely within the maintained system up to 18, & then grant-maintained at university.

"All things in common", I learned, was the watchword of Cromwell's Commonwealth. Sounds pretty leftwing to me as an aspiration. Didn't achieve it, of course; but no left-wing society ever has achieved its stated aspirations, has it? ~ which was my point in mentioning Cromwell along with all those others, which you have not yet responded to, have you? Why have all left-wing paradises, I ask again, been such hell to live in while they survived, which was never for very long?

Thank you for the much more restrained and moderate tone of your last post, which makes it far easier to respond without the necessity for resentment.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 06:23 AM

Thank God for that. For one awful moment I thought MtheGM had given up living.

Sorry M. Two year's compulsory national service does not qualify you as a horny handed son of toil, even when it is done at squaddie level.

You are almost correct though. I am a man of considerable education, as well as being a horny handed son of toil.

To elucidate. I educated myself by making liberal use of our splendid public library system, whilst working by day as a delivery boy, french polisher, building worker, lab technician and quality controller. Of course, several night school courses played their part, as did the desire to immerse myself in the writings of Karl Marx, Trotsky and Lenin, to say nothing of the works of numerous social historians such as EP Thompson, Christopher Hill, EJ Hobsbawm and the Hammonds. That of course, was in addition to immersing myself in every book on music I could lay my hands on, plus various tomes on literature, poetry and drama.

Sad to say that, Marx apart, I didn't manage to embrace many of the other social philosophers, although I eventually spent three years at university, which sorted that one out nicely. That of course was three years which, when I wasn't studying, was spent brushing floors, scrubbing toilets, delivering Christmas post, and anything else I could find to support myself.

Silver spoon be damned!

Anyway, you haven't told us yet how you conceive of Cromwell's commonwealth as left wing. If Cromwell was left wing, where does that place Adolf Hitler? Yes I know somewhere to the left of Michael Grosvenor-Myer.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:52 AM

... and would a cry of 'tu quoque' or 'same to you with brass knobs on' be justified with regard to Ms S's 'carapace of certainty'?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:45 AM

What, in all seriousness, do others think? Does not Mr Woodson's shrill abusiveness tell more cogently against, rather than in favour of, his arguments?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:27 AM

If I might be permitted a speculation as to what might be the answers of Mr Woodson & Ms Marianne.S to the questions I have put to them:

I suspect that they regard the views of those on the left to be so morally unquestionable, so intellectually unassailable, that, by a leap of logic whose basis I must confess escapes me but seems to be general among those of their persuasion, they have no need, and cannot be expected, to abide by the norms of general societal courtesy or civilised social intercourse. "You rightwingers are all such despicable forms of lowlife that we have no need even to pretend to treat you or your views with any sort of respect or consideration," would appear to be their watchcry.

I need hardly add that I consider such views to be wholly mistaken, and their consequences entirely baleful, from any possible pov.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:30 AM

And with regard to Marianne's denunciation of my 'carapace': I honestly cannot see that I express myself in any greater tone of dogmatism or certainty that anyone else expressing opinions on this thread. She saw fit to rake up some old controversies from Folk Review of nearly 40 years ago, which I endeavoured to answer with reasonable courtesy. If I may so put it, I genuinely can't see what she has to get her knickers in such a twist about.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:58 AM

I thought you meant me above, Richard. Please note my name is actually Myer.

I by no means discount the value of the system of grant-maintained degrees in force in my youth; but as it was the system which then obtained, I see no reason why I should be made to feel in any way guilty about having benefited from it. I too greatly regret its replacement by a system of loans.

And I repeat that it does make Woodson's 'silver-spoon' jibe peculiarly inapposite. I can't think why he appears so incapable of disputing in a civilised fashion without coming across as being so peculiarly SPITEFUL!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:42 AM

1. The price is always paid by the poor to the rich.

2. Very privileged to get a free degree, Meyer. The cuntservatives put a stop to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:53 AM

Away yesterday so didn't open Mudcat. Back now. Oh, yes, old Woodieface. Does he really not see how unintelligent he comes over, having to reduce everything theoretical to the purely personal, just because he doesn't like what he erroneously perceives as extreme rightwing views, to which I am perfectly entitled on a free forum in a free society; and then expressing all his foolish resentments in such shallow cliché: "Horny-handed son of toil," I ask you!

As to my supposed "silver spoon": my upbringing was thoroughly bourgeois. My father was deputy editor of a small specialised newspaper; my mother the seventh of eight children of a Hoxton grocer. I was educated free at a grammar school, had my Cambridge fees & maintenance paid by Middlesex County Council; and did lots & lots of the sort of work he goes so proudly on about during the National Service I had to do in between ~~ cookhouse duties, coal shovelling, barrackroom floor scrubbing & polishing... Didn't even get my commission till succeeding mandatory three years Territorial service. Some 'silver-spoon'!

So be off with you Woodentop, with your jejune predictable class-resentments and chippy-shoulder, and learn to dispute with a bit of objectivity & courtesy. You are evidently a man of some education, & have no need for such fatuous posturing.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:20 PM

part of a small minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:06 PM

My Dad is pretty right wing. He's Canadian. So that means sticking to his principles means no health care or Old Age Pension. The arguments are short. My wife is pretty left wing. No fracking, No coal, no war, no military.

I am grateful for all that we have and realize that there is a price to be paid at both ends of the spectrum. What does that make me?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:36 PM

That was me just above, without my cookie.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 11:52 AM

Jack the sailor: agreed. Still, I probably should have used a different title, since rude behavior is not confined to the political right. ( I can hear people out there yelling "No shit!)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 11:50 AM

Well spotted me old fish. (Does that make you a trout instead?)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 11:44 AM

Speak for yourself, John Mackenzie. But then you just have!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 08:57 AM

We have the same problem with puritanical, self satisfied, judgemental "leftie" relatives. They berate the old folks about everything from shopping at big stores, not buying local,singing the national anthem, believing in God and all the way to how they vote. We've told the intolerant buggers to stay away, they have, we are grateful

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 07:04 AM

When you say "Right wing", Elmore. I think you mean EXTREME right wing, as there's surely a bit of right wing in all of us!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:10 AM

When Lenin was accused of betraying the Revolution, he responded, "What's the point of having a revolution if you don't betray it?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: meself
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:55 AM

Who exactly IS the thread creep? Has that been decided yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:09 PM

I kind of thought the topic was covered when you thanked people for the advice you didn't ask for. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:07 PM

Janie: No big deal. I actually found the thread creep interesting, and amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:47 PM

"Jack. Have you ever read Marx? "

Not everything he wrote. What I did read was more criticism than optimism. "Let the workers grab the factories by force and own them themselves" is not exactly what Jesus taught. But it was a Labor Economics course. The prof apparently thought that Marx best expressed the workers' point of view. Lots of crapping on the status quo for sure. Marx made some good points and was an incisive economic thinker. But Ayn Rand also made a couple of good points in her clumsy stories. I am sure the best system, while far form perfect for all, is between those two poles.