BS: Right wing Relatives

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Janie
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:44 PM

It was an interesting topic, Elmore, about people and relationships. Sorry it got hijacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:31 PM

True, many of the views expressed by Karl Marx and Jesus Christ were similar. They differed in the use of force to justify the end as Jesus was more pacifist, but his old man was more of a warmonger than Marx! Now if Elmore thiks he has family problems I suspect a lot of arguing around the heavenly throne as a left wing son tries to teach compassion to his right wing father. Trouble is the old man refuses to take advice to perhaps improve this less than perfect world that he claims as his creation.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: meself
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:28 PM

Oh - you mean Karl Marx is NOT your stepson? I'm confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:13 PM

But, what about my annoying stepson?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:49 PM

can you see any demonising or sneering in my posts? karl marx had theories, some of them were pretty astute. not his fault that monsters like stalin or mao distorted those theories. i am just saying that all people are deserving of respect and all have the right to try to have a happy life. we would all be better off if we treated everyone else fairly and did not fall for the lies (and money)of the men of violence. it is global capitalism that is the cause of so much misery and injustice in the world today - the fact that a few people have so much while much of the rest of the world are really struggling is not a problem of the right or left, it's just wrong. if we had compassion and tolerance for each other and co-operated rather than fighting.....well, it is such an obvious point it hardly needs making. the world is run largely for the benefit of -mostly american- a very small group of incredibly wealthy and powerful white males. anyone care to explain why that is a good thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:30 PM

"I really can't think of a more depressing view of humanity than Karl Marx's. Can you?"

Jack. Have you ever read Marx? He is difficult, baffling at times, and - I've got to say it - hopelessly out of date. But a view of society where everybody pulls together for the betterment of everybody has got to be the most noble vision anyone ever expounded since Jesus Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:05 PM

Trolls always win around here, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:55 PM

"...those from the Left can never admit they can be wrong-because they assume that they embody virtue itself.
Accordingly, they demonise and sneer at all who dare disagree. Pinning their faith on Utopian fantasies, they tend to regard theoretical ideas as having more substance than what is going on under their noses."

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:26 PM

"'workers of the world unite-you have nothing to lose but your chains' - is just about the most hopeful and positive message there is."

Yeah, right. Sure worked out for the Russians, didn't it?

In fact many did lose more than their chains they lost their lives. Most of those who didn't got new chains, shiny communist chains.

Political slogans are very very cheap. And best of all realities lies somewhere between the political extremes.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:10 PM

And while I am at it, yes, I do see reactionary politics - conservative republican, whatever, - and morality as mutually exclusive.   The one is devoted to the supremacy of man over man, while the other asserts the commonality of humanity.

If you don't, Mr Meyer, you are as venal a moneygrabber as Dave or Gideon.

And rightwingers are not welcome in my house.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:07 PM

Of course. Reagan, Bush, Palin and smuggins the ignorant theocrat.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:07 PM

'workers of the world unite-you have nothing to lose but your chains' - is just about the most hopeful and positive message there is. a bit of community, mutual support, treating each other with respect and fairness. who could object to such idealism? depressing is the fact that throughout history in all parts of the world people have been enslaved and set to fighting each other for the benefit of a small number of men -warmongers, greedy, racist, parasites - with seriously disturbed and depressing views and the power to persuade us mugs to pick up a gun on their behalf

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:48 PM

I really can't think of a more depressing view of humanity than Karl Marx's. Can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:42 PM

when most top politicians in the uk are proposing a very narrow definition of political differences, is it time to forget the major parties when talking about left and right? i was just reading 'homage to catalonia' this afternoon where orwell was clearly accusing the communists of the day as little different from the right in their desire to manage capitalism rather than offer a genuine alternative. while in the '30s we had the whole range from anarchists to fascists all with a reasonable chance of a bit of power (in spain anyway)- today the free market fascists are in the saddle in many parts of the world. the left is still there outside of parliament (in uk and usa and in all the countries they terrorise)but we are struggling to make any inroads in curbing the power and wealth of the 1%. good music helps though. and lively argument. and beer. i have plenty of arguments with my old man but apart from him i never meet anyone prepared to seriously propose right wing views. i don't think we will ever change each others ideas on forums like this but for me, its quite interesting to see what they think. they seem to be have plenty of points to make but never really say why they hold such a depressing view of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:06 PM

I think this thread has gone somewhat off topic...

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 02:59 PM

"leftwing societies from Cromwell's Commonwealth.....". Whaaaaaaaaatttttttt!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 02:57 PM

What was that about no cheap insults? If you wish to enter into private conversation with Marianne, then a public message board is hardly the place to do it.

What is wrong with the term 'horny handed' anyway? Not that I can imagine the silver spooned Michael Grosvenor Myer ever having engaged in anything which remotely resembled hard physical labour.

I could be wrong though. Come on Mike. Frighten us all to death with your tales of how you once brushed the floor up.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 02:54 PM

You're doing it again, M. (I hope you don't mind my being informal.) Have you any idea what your posts seem like to other people? Leaping to conclusions is dangerous exercise.

'Correct me if I am wrong'? I wouldn't even try. Anything I can say will just bounce off that carapace of certainty.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 12:56 PM

I was talking to Marianne, not you. Who asked you to butt in? I specifically excluded you from my disclaimer, as I can't think of too many insults for you, Woodentop. Mind you, I needn't really bother, as you are making a pretty good job of making a thorough fool of yourself with no outside assistance. I can scarcely believe it; but you actually are using a cliché like "horny-handed" in all seriousness, aren't you? Do you genuinely not realise what a caricature you are making of yourself, with your foolish, horny-headed, chippy-shouldered idiocies?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 10:05 AM

"Not aware of having resorted to any cheap insults."

God almighty. That one surely has to be on a par with Enoch Powell's claim that he never said anything to encourage racism.

BTW. It's horny handed, not horny headed. That means I used to earn my bread by the sweat of my brow. You should have tried it while you were still capable.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:39 AM

Forgot to say, thank you for that "elegant prose"!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:30 AM

Not aware of having resorted to any cheap insults. Apologise for anything I have said to you that was read as such. {Different for truculent old horny-headed Woodenhead, mind; but he started it, Sir!} Glad you remember some of my writing with what appears to be a measure of affectionate agreement.

But when you write "I remember being astonished from time to time that an intelligent person could hold such views," that is where I feel you put your finger on the weakness of your left-orientated position; which seems to me [correct me if I am wrong] to be predicated on the postulate that morality and leftwing views are in some way synonymous or identical. They aren't. If they were, it would be hard to fathom why all leftwing societies from Cromwell's Commonwealth to Stalin's Soviet Union to Ceauescu's Romania to Ulbricht's East Germany have been such popular paradises to live in that they lasted for ever with no need for any sort of oppression of anybody within them.

The only actual political party I have ever actually been a member of, in the sense of paying subscription to belong, was Labour. I was on the ward committee of Hampstead Labour Party with a member of the then Shadow Cabinet & future cabinet minister Patrick Gordon-Walker, in 1960. Then moved to Cambridge, where my home was a ward committee room for the 1964 election. And then we got Wilson; & Kinnock; & Brown...

So enjoy your leftwing views, and the feel of moral superiority which possession of them clearly affords you. But have at least the modesty to recognise that some people possessed of all their faculties fail to share them, unthinkingly and unquestioningly, with you.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:05 AM

Just the occasional article, MtheGM, and (if I couldn't get out of it) the occasional review. I remember you for your elegant prose. I remember on occasion agreeing with you. I remember being astonished from time to time that an intelligent person could hold such views. I remember your fight for traditional music. I still remember your suggestion that if singer-songwriters thought they were so popular they should run singer-songwriter clubs instead of infesting folk-clubs.

I think you demean yourself when you resort to cheap insults. I can't imagine it impresses many people and I doubt it converts anyone to your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:18 AM

Oh, Folk Review was it, MS? Ah, happy days. Oh dear me, the obloquy I used to collect for sometimes suggesting in my monthly column {you have a monthly column anywhere, did you MS? Ah well...} that one ought to have an occasional chance of hearing a bit of folk music at a self-styled folk club. And here's darling old Marianne, still fighting that old battle. And she sez that isn't a compliment, LoL!

Teeheehee

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:15 AM

From the look of this thread most people have already decided. I can only speak for myself of course, but I'm from a working class background and I long ago qualified as a horny handed son of toil. There were no ivory towers where I was brought up. There were no silver spoons either.

I do engage in rational argument now and then though. You really should try it.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:29 AM

Still -

insufferable reactionary smugness... continually pervade... ivory tower ... the real world
.,,.

10 unarguably & indubitably emotively loaded words in a post 35 words long ~~ including vocatives & such phatic signifiers as "tell you what". And that seems to be Mr Woodson's concept of rational argument.

Ah well, I rely on Catters' ability to estimate from this whose tower is ivory and whose world is real.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:17 AM

"Nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. I'm going down the garden to eat worms." Traditional song

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:01 AM

"... & I suppose O Woodson will regard that as a post"

No Mr M. It was merely a comment on the insufferable reactionary smugness with which you continually pervade this forum. Tell you what. You stay in your ivory tower and I'll stay in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:36 AM

I might even have been an unusually talented toddler! However you assumed that I am under 80 ("You wait till you are over 80") whereas the only justifiable conclusion from what I said is that I was old enough to read (or to have had the articles read to me but old enough to understand them) some articles of yours in the past.

(In fact it was mostly Folk Review.)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:17 AM

Your logic not unassailable, MS, whatever your age. My last contribution to Folk Journalism, iirc, was The Guardian's obit of Bob Copper ~~ not all that many millions of years ago [8, to be precise]. I only took up journalism on a regular basis in 1969, at the age of 37. My Folk Review columns & reviews, TES & Guardian folk record & Times folk book reviews, were written in my 40s-60s. You could easily have been 30+ [or even 40+] years younger than me when you read them, them, couldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:00 AM

MGM - and leaping to conclusions!

I'm old enough to remember your contributions to folk journalism - this might well indicate an age in excess of 80.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:54 AM

I am not awatre of any Right Wing Trolls who are memnbers here.
I am aware of a tendency for those of a Far Left persuasion to brand any dissent as Far Right.

The most Right Wing here would be US Republicans.
US Democrats broadly compare with the Right Wing of UK politics (Tories).
We have a few UK members who might be from the Tory Left, but none further Right than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:48 AM

What Mike was saying, is something I have remarked upon before. Folkie people as a species are largely left wing/socialist in their politics.
This might explain why so many schoolteachers are involved ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:48 AM

You wait till you are over 80 and see if you still think so!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:38 AM

Faulty logic again.

If, for example, I remember a performer from the past as the worst I ever heard, it would not be a compliment. Merely being remembered is no compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:31 AM

Ah well ~~ a backhanded compliment is better than none, eh? Thanks for remembering a poor old yesterday's man, anyhow!

~Michael~

Anyhow; how could one possibly improve on perfection?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:18 AM

M****** G******** M***

I remember your articles in folk magazines in the past. You haven't improved any.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:09 AM

With respect, Marianne ~~ I don't think you had 'analysed' the precise sequential context, in relation to other posts, of the posts to which I was responding. I could probably do so if I had the least belief that you would pay sufficiently 'analytical' attention: but I suspect that, for all the grandiloquence of your claim, you are just not a sufficiently 'analytical' person to make the effort involved worthwhile.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 02:59 AM

"I've asked this before, but why the heck do right-wing trolls inhabit a site devoted to songs (largely) of the oppressed? "

I have analysed the logical structure of this sentence and I cannot see on what basis MtheGM thinks this means 'anyone who happens to like folk music but doesn't buy the entire lefty package from Marx to Castro must be 'a troll'. One might logically infer from the original comment that *all* right wing trolls inhabit one or more sites devoted to songs etc, but not that they all inhabit this site. The sentence structure implies they have a choice of sites. However I cannot see how it can be taken to mean that all non-left wing persons are trolls.

Perhaps this is an example of distorted right wing thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 02:47 AM

... & I suppose O Woodson will regard that as a post

"as far to the right as any ... ever posted on this site".

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 01:38 AM

sturgeon clearly thinks that anyone who happens to like folk music but doesn't buy the entire lefty package from Marx to Castro must be 'a troll'. Sez it all about lefties, really, doesn't it?

〠☺〠~M~〠☺〠

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:22 PM

That's fine, and that's what I meant. They will have had their say and after that no more. If it takes a lesser amount of time than five minutes, so much the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 07:47 PM

"Easiest way to handle it is to ask the relative to explain his/her core beliefs in detail" 9

As John P said, they lean heavily to one liners. I have had absolutely no luck with that approach. The strange thing is that on other subjects they are articulate, even voluble, and persuasive. I have one brother who is an absolutely excellent teacher on his subject (mechanics) but ask him just a simple Why? when he says he supports someone politically and he resorts to dismissive end-of-the-subject cliches.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John P
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 07:34 PM

I have one right-wing relative that I can have civil political conversations with. But his right-wingness is tempered with a sharp intelligence. He actually voted for Obama -- not because he agreed with his politics (he doesn't) but because the Republicans ran Sarah Palin for VP. He doesn't have much use for ignorant stupidity.

The rest of my right-wing relatives, like most right-wingers apparently, can't string two logical thought together to save their lives. Their conversations consist of idiotic slogans, and they just get made when you ask them to support what they are saying, or ask what happens next (as in, how do those policies actually play out in real life). I just don't engage anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 04:38 PM

Easiest way to handle it is to ask the relative to explain his/her core beliefs in detail. That will take about 5 minutes. Then declare politics off-limits for the remainder of the evening/gathering.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 04:18 PM

Ha! To create dissension.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:45 PM

I've asked this before, but why the heck do right-wing trolls inhabit a site devoted to songs (largely) of the oppressed?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:09 PM

==="Wouldn't know. I never watch junk tv."===

.,,.

And it's

WOODSON ~~~~~

Double Gold Medal for

Resolute Point Missing

and

Extreme Illiteracy!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 07:07 AM

JM. Absolutely. Makes me wonder why he bothers.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 06:32 AM

To understand the right of a person to hold a point of view opposite to your own, is realism.
To deny them to hold any point of view opposite to your own, is bigotry.
You may argue with them, you may try to persuade them that they are wrong.
When you descend to the realms of personal insults, and denial of their right to hold such views, you have lost the argument.
All you have proven then is your own lack of balance
Think of the old saying about people who swear. That doing so shows a lack of vocabulary.