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BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail
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Subject: BS: IsaacGate: Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 30 Aug 12 - 06:53 AM Well Well Well "As president, Barack Obama will ensure that New Orleans has a levee and pumping system to protect the city against a 100-year storm by 2011, with the ultimate goal of protecting the entire city from a Category 5 storm. Obama will also direct revenues from offshore oil and gas drilling to increased coastal hurricane protection." Hurricane Isaac tops Louisiana levee on Katrina anniversary(Reuters) - Hurricane Isaac drove water over the top of a levee on the outskirts of New Orleans on Wednesday, triggering life-threatening flooding seven years to the day after Hurricane Katrina, authorities said. Emergency management officials in low-lying Plaquemines Parish reported the overtopping of the 8 or 9 foot (2.4 or 2.7 meter) high levee between the Braithwaite and White Ditch districts southeast of New Orleans. Plaquemines Parish President Billy Nungesser said about 2,000 residents of the area had been ordered to evacuate but only about half were confirmed to have gotten out before Isaac brought driving winds and rain beginning late on Tuesday. "On the east bank right now, we have reports of people on their roofs and attics and 12 to 14 foot (3.6-4.2 meters) of water (in their homes)," Nungesser told CNN. "This storm has delivered more of a punch than people thought," he added. It was not immediately clear how many people may have been stranded in the area, as torrential rain and hurricane-force winds prevented a full-scale search. "The sheriff's deputies are over there but all the roads are unpassable ... We don't know if some people are left behind and now we can't get there and there is no way we can operate a boat or an air boat in these winds," Nungesser said. Isaac was the first test for multibillion-dollar flood defenses built after levees failed under Katrina's storm surge, leaving large parts of New Orleans swamped and killing 1,800 people, the costliest natural disaster in U.S. history. Plaquemines Parish was outside the city limits that benefited from the beefing up of New Orleans' flood defenses. Hundreds in and around New Orleans drowned in 2005 and many survivors waited for days to be plucked from their rooftops by helicopter. New Orleans endured days of deadly disorder and widespread looting. While not nearly as strong as Katrina - a Category 3 hurricane when it slammed into New Orleans on August 29, 2005 - Isaac, with Category 1 winds up to 80 mph (130 kph), was a threat that authorities said should not be underestimated. At 7 a.m. EDT (1100 GMT), Isaac was about 50 miles (75 km) south-southwest of New Orleans and packing top sustained winds of 80 miles (130 km) an hour, the U.S. National Hurricane Center said. It said hurricane force winds extended outward up to 60 miles (95 km) from the storm's center. Isaac was slogging west-northwestward near 6 mph (9 kph), a slow pace that increases the threat of rain-induced flooding. WIDESPREAD FLOODING EXPECTED Isaac killed at least 23 people and caused significant flooding and damage in Haiti and the Dominican Republic before skirting the southern tip of Florida on Sunday and heading across the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico. It spared Tampa, Florida, where the Republican National Convention is being held. But it forced party leaders to reshuffle the schedule and tone down what some might have seen as excess celebration about Mitt Romney's presidential nomination as Gulf Coast residents faced danger. The leading edge of the storm was felt along the Gulf Coast starting late Tuesday, and authorities had warned it could flood towns in Mississippi and Alabama, as well as Louisiana, with storm surges of up to 12 feet (3.7 meters). Rainfall accumulations, potentially totaling as much as 20 inches (50 cm) in some areas, were expected to trigger widespread flooding. Energy companies along the Gulf Coast refining center braced for the storm's impact by shuttering some plants and running others at reduced rates ahead of Isaac's landfall. Oil production in the U.S. Gulf of Mexico nearly ground to a halt and ports and coastal refineries curtailed operations. Intense hurricanes such as Katrina - which took out 4.5 million barrels per day of refining capacity at one point - have flooded refineries, keeping them closed for extended periods and reducing fuel supplies. This time, though, the U.S. Department of Energy estimated that only 12 percent of the Gulf Coast's refining capacity had gone offline. Louisiana usually processes more than 3 million barrels per day of crude into products like gasoline. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Richard Bridge Date: 30 Aug 12 - 06:58 AM Why not read before posting, sorearse? "Plaquemines Parish was outside the city limits that benefited from the beefing up of New Orleans' flood defenses" |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 12 - 07:45 AM Saws shows his blind hate and ignorance yet again... ((((((((((((((((((((yawn)))))))))))))))))))) B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 30 Aug 12 - 09:13 AM "I don't go out of my way to find him but when he attacks I counter" |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 30 Aug 12 - 09:22 AM Wed Aug 29, 2012 at 05:36 AM PDT Isaac Hits West Miss Delta, Federal New Orleans Levees Will Be OK Don't worry about the federal levees around New Orleans. President Obama has this under control. He has made sure that the Federal government is prepared. The pumps are ready, the levees are repaired and emergency crews are waiting to spring into action. Republicans can party on in Tampa without worry because a Democrat is president. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 12 - 09:33 AM Washington Post: "In New Orleans, the intricate network of levees, pumps and floodgates built since Katrine was "peforming the way it was designed to' said Rene Poche for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers." New York Times: The levee in question was not built by the Amry Corps of Engineers, which is responsible for the high barriers that line the Mississippi River. Instead, this was a parish "back levee" built to protect the communities from storm surge." _________________________________________________________________ In other words, Saws, this was on your boy Bobby Jindal since New Orleans, since Katrine, hasn't had the tax receipts to build all the infrastructure within the city that it would take to protect each and every parish... Hey, me being a "liberal" I would love to see the federal government take on that added responsibility but yer guys ain't for spending any addition money inside New Orleans... They say that up to Louisiana and New Orleans... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: John P Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:00 AM I've been waiting for Pat Robertson to let us know for which sins God is punishing the Republican Party by throwing a hurricane at their convention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Greg F. Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:07 AM Problem is God's aim is way off, as usual - he MISSED the Repuublican convention & got those poor slobs in Nawleens.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:15 AM Bobert: You may be right and I will be willing to admit I am wrong after the storm is over and all the news is in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: KB in Iowa Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:16 AM Swing and a miss. This had nothing to do with what Obama said he would do, says so right in the article (as Richard Bridge pointed out). |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:18 AM STOP THE PRESSES!!! Get Ripley on the phone... Bobert "might be right"... Holy Moly... I need a drink... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: John MacKenzie Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:29 AM So President Barak Obama, personally roled up hi sleeves, and built the levee did he? It's the typical dirty tricks misnomer in play again. Spread enough shit and lies, and hope somebody will believe it. The same trick is played here to. Apparently Maggie Thatcher owned and ran Britain single handed. It was called Thatcher's Britain, just so they could sling muck at her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: KB in Iowa Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:31 AM "Isaac arrived seven years after Hurricane Katrina and passed slightly to the west of New Orleans, where the city's fortified levee system easily handled the assault." This from an article in the St. Pete Times (now called the Tampa Bay Times). |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 30 Aug 12 - 01:02 PM Direct quote from the KSBW article Sawzaw linked to in another thread: "This is a local levee. They knew it's prone to flooding. That's why it was under a mandatory evacuation order. About 20 people or so didn't leave," said Col. Mike Edmonson, superintendent of Louisiana State Police. The guy said "local levee". That means a levee maintained by local government, not the Corps of Engineers, not President Obama personally, not even the state of Louisiana, but the parish or town itself. It's probably a good idea to actually read the entirety of an article before citing it as something that substantiates your viewpoint. Otherwise, it might do nothing but help you insert your foot further into your mouth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: pdq Date: 30 Aug 12 - 02:08 PM Our national news media is absolutely pathetic. They all keep calling it Hurricane Isaac, even though it is just a tropical storm. I fend no evidence that it was a hurricane for more than a few hours and that was by just a few mph wind speed. I find no reliable source that says it was a hurricane when it hit New Orleans. Katrina was a Category 5 storm for a short time and a Category 3 when it impacted New Orleans. There is no comparison in strength, but the media babble on and on, trying to generate news, not report it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bill D Date: 30 Aug 12 - 02:17 PM So... several people have posted explanations about what levees were involved and who maintains them and who was affected..... all info Sawz could have determined if he were not so anxious to attribute ANY problem possible directly to Obama Geez.... If Obama were to walk on water, Sawz would claim he was afraid to get his feet wet or avoiding swimming. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Amos Date: 30 Aug 12 - 02:25 PM Sawxer, ya really gotta find a cure for this spewing disease ya got yerself. It's, ya know, unbecoming... |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: EBarnacle Date: 30 Aug 12 - 02:27 PM I spoke with a friend of mine from Baton Rouge a couple of hours ago. The storm lost much of its speed when it came inland. As such, it dumped more water than expected in the area, even though the winds were not as extreme as feared. His area of Baton Rouge lost power, which was restored after a few hours. Local flooding was several feet above expectation and above Katrina levels due to the total amount of water from the storm. My friend believes that part of the cause of the higher levels was that the levees prevented drainage that occurred when the levees failed during Katrina. You can't do just one thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Don Firth Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:23 PM Sawzaw blames Obama for the meteor 65 million years ago that render the dinosaurs extinct. And the Great Flood in the Bible. The Vesuvius eruption that destroyed Pompeii. The Black Plaque that decemated Europe in the Middle Ages. The Spanish Inquisition. The Civil War and World Wars I and II. Teenage acne. Jock itch. Etc. Don Firth P. S. Not to mention Sawzaw's hemorrhoids. . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: SINSULL Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:45 PM Black Plaque????? They all died of tooth decay? As to New Orleans: Brownie is still doing a great job! |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Don Firth Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:51 PM Yeah! Horrible way to go! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Richard Bridge Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:55 PM The other thing that is remarkable is Sorearse's version of justice: guilty until proven innocent! |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:18 PM Well, ya'll... I'll have to defend Saws here... After I brought the facts to his attention he did say that I might be right and that if he was wrong that he'd own up to it... Not to worry, he is Sawz so he will screw up again but on this one he might get a pass... Okay, he was a tad quick on the trigger but... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Richard Bridge Date: 30 Aug 12 - 05:05 PM No Bob - he retains the view that Obama screwed up until the contrary is proven. Read it again! |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM That's not exactly what he said, Richard... He said that I "might be right"... That's about as far as he went but that ain't like holding pat either... He has never said that I "might be right" about anything... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:14 PM Bullshit Bobert I have agreed with you several times. But: Victoria Taft Show on Kpam 860: One of headlines this week is that the Army Corp of Engineers was rushing to shore up the gaps in the levees around New Orleans. Now as I recall the avowed purpose of the Administration's Stimulus Program passed in 2009 was to support shovel ready infrastructure projects. And what could be more shovel ready and have had more widespread voter support than fortifying the levies around New Orleans? Allegedly money has been spent on New Orleans environmental and levee restoration (~$14 billion scheduled; allegedly 70% complete); but obviously not enough given the headlines and apparently some levees restored are literally sinking into the muck. Why didn't this Administration spend more stimulus dollars, more quickly on the New Orleans levees rather than things like turtle tunnels in Florida?? For that matter given the BP oil spill disaster, why wasn't this Administration more supportive of the Louisiana Governor's efforts to build barrier islands and barriers off the Louisiana shoreline to stop the oil spill and to help shelter Louisiana shoreline wetlands? |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:23 PM Funny, Saws... I will respond to you tomorrow after researching the loopholes that your right wing bloggers have come up with... Should have known better than to expect you to accept the truth... Sorry, folks... I apologize for defending Sawz... Pile on the right wing ideologue wacko as you feel necessary.... He hasn't changed... He was just waiting for his right wing spinners to set the course... My bad... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:47 PM Oh fuck Bobertz, why the hell bother? Make it simple.....like this: Hey Sawzyshortdick. You're an unmitigated asshole. Blow me. Like that . See? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 12 - 09:15 AM Here's the deal, Saws... The Army Corps of Engineers were funded to rebuild the levee and pump systems to keep the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain out of New Orleans... That is where the "federal" responsibility officially ended for the Corps... However, having learned a few things from Katrina where the "federal" response was dismal the Army Corps under the command of Col. Edward R. Fleming worked closely with FEMA in assisting New Orleans with various problems with levees that were built by the state and local governments... That is what FEMA is supposed to do... That's why we have FEMA... It's for situatuins where the state and local resources aren't sufficient to address a major disaster... Now, I'll say this: I would be more than willing to have a penny out of every dollar I pay in taxes to go toward funding further work by the Corps inside the city so places like Plaquemines Parish... I'd even pay a little more taxes to achieve that... I mean, New Orleans is a national treasure... There is no other city anything like it... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 12 - 10:26 AM BTW, events like Katrina and Issac are the best arguments against the Romney/Ryan/Rand perspective of what the federal government should be doing... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 31 Aug 12 - 11:57 AM Let's face it, New Orleans was a bad idea. I'll never forget my first visit. We walked across the square in front of the cathedral and headed for the riverfront, past the casino, past the aquarium. Walked UP a steep slope, and there was the Mississippi River. Its water was HIGHER UP than the streets of the city. I said, "I prefer the Kansas City approach, where the city is up and the river is down." Yes, because of levees, pumps, etc, the higher and more expensive areas of New Orleans survived Hurricane Katrina. The Central Businees District, the French Quarter, the Garden District-- those are worth saving. But people can't keep building on flatter, lower, wetter ground and expect to be safe. We are beating our heads against a stone wall here. After Katrina, many people left New Orleans forever, and I applaud their wisdom. ========== As I type this, I can hear a little rain on my roof. Usually, when the Gulf Coast has a hurricane, Missouri gets rain too. We've been hoping for it, what with the drought we have had, but this welcome rain has been a long time in coming. I believe that the hot, dry air over the plains has kept Isaac stalled over the South. Too bad for them and for us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bill D Date: 31 Aug 12 - 12:12 PM Victoria Taft?? Sawz.. if you'd listen to a range of bloggers and shows, rather than just the ones who spout all the distortions you HOPE to hear, you might be able to begin to distinguish hyped-up partisan BS from fairly presented analysis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: GUEST,crazy little woman Date: 31 Aug 12 - 12:50 PM "Hey Sawzyshortdick. You're an unmitigated asshole. Blow me." Spaw dear, that is not how to do it. You should be businesslike and also maintain a spirit of inquiry. Say, "Sawzall, are you a lying, rascist propagandist or merely a gullible worrywart who mindlessly passes on every Internet falsehood he comes across?" See? Be polite, like me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 31 Aug 12 - 02:03 PM The work by the Corps of Engineers was limited by cost cuts during the Bush administration. One thread has been revived, but there are others, and the situation was discussed in great detail. Few people understand New Orleans. The population of greater New Orleans is divided, only about half the population is governed by the City. Divided responsibility makes it difficult to coordinate plans for the area. New Orleans had little difficulty with flooding until, in the first half of the 20th C., levies were built that constricted the flow of the Mississippi, and spring floods were no longer permitted to flow over adjacent lands (and enrich the soil, as well as keep the flow into the delta within bounds) along its extent from Missouri and Iowa south. It was only after desecration of the Mississippi River channel that the river exceeded city level in height. (Other factors include subsidence of the old city as water and oil pumped out of the subsurface). Kansas City benefitted from the constrictions, but they played hell with Louisiana and the Delta. New Orleans is a treasure that must be protected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bill D Date: 31 Aug 12 - 02:29 PM "It was only after desecration of the Mississippi River channel that the river exceeded city level in height." That is what MY family found out in Oct.,1947, when a relatively small hurricane brought water OVER the seawall (as we called levees) and flooded us out. We went to bed at 504 Helios St. in Metairie with a couple inches of rainfall in the yard, and waded out in the morning with 2ft. of rising water lapping at the steps. (I was just starting 3rd grade, and it was almost chest high as I waded out) It eventually rose to a foot deep inside the house and stayed there for 13 days...until they blasted holes in the levee to let it escape. We stayed at a military barrack for several weeks and then moved to Kansas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 12 - 02:33 PM Bottom line??? Sawz thread title is a lie... The levees that the federal government designed and built did not fail... That much is fact... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 31 Aug 12 - 02:54 PM Correct, no government levees around New Orleans were topped. Some levees should be higher near the ship canal, but cost cuts by the Bush administration leaves a few areas subject to damage from category 5 storms. And thanks, folks, for not hammering me for 'levies'- Old Alzheimer's got me, cane by my side,.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bill D Date: 31 Aug 12 - 03:42 PM It IS obvious that they can never protect all of the Greater New Orleans area from every possible storm event. They have a system that will 'mostly' protect the city proper from 'most' events. It is rolling the dice to decide how many billions to risk in trying to protect a major city living in a bowl. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:03 PM It's still raining here. Wahoo! The weather map shows that a huge mass of cloouds that cover almost all the eastern half of the country. Must be Hurricane Isaac, moving north and weakening. It's not a violent thunderstorm but a good rain, steady rain which can soak in. Too bad some political party can't put rain like this in their platform. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:37 PM Actually, they could almost do it, leeneia... I've long felt that it was possible to find areas west of the Mississippi where huge reservoirs could be dug and water diverted thru aqueducts, much the way the ancient Romans moved water but on a larger scale... These reservoirs could be used for irrigation and for keeping the Mississippi navigable during drought and be release valves during potential flooding... Missouri would be perfect location for one of these deep water lake/reservoirs... I've always thought it was doable if we ever got to a point where the political will was there to do it... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: gnu Date: 31 Aug 12 - 05:03 PM "Here's the deal, Saws... The Army Corps of Engineers were funded to rebuild the levee and pump systems to keep the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain out of New Orleans... That is where the "federal" responsibility officially ended for the Corps..." Let's get something REAL strrrrrAAAight. Engineers can build you anything you want BUT YOU HAVE TO PAY TO BUILD IT. If YOU or your elected representative don't have the money... well... yer fucked, eh. Obama's levees failed? What a bunch a horseshit. As a Canuck, I am seriously offended by the bullshit intended herein. You go back and read the threads after and about Katrina. First on the scene was a Canuck warship (and, BTW, WTF???) that offloaded enough MRE's to feed THOUSANDS and they were ordered to reload them because a mad cow from USA was found in Canada a wee time before. Now... I don't think Obama would have given that order... starve people for absolutely no reasonable reason? Some people are misinformed or they have selective memories. Obama's levees? He's been Pres for less than four years. Katrina ripped apart people's lives SEVEN FUCKING YEARS AGO. Where was Bush then? Where was the legislation to grant the Corps the $ they needed THEN or BEFORE? Do you think before you post... fer fuck sake? You should be ashamed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 12 - 05:58 PM Exact point I made in the Katrine thread, Gn-ze... After 9-11 Bush's administration supposedly put together the "National Response Plan" for future emergencies... How'd that work??? Well, it didn't... Katrina exposed Bush as the lousy bullshitter he was... All talk and no action... Thanks, Canucks... We're okay now but if Romney wins be prepared to become out next FEMA... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Aug 12 - 06:20 PM Let's face it, New Orleans was a bad idea... Walked UP a steep slope, and there was the Mississippi River. Its water was HIGHER UP than the streets of the city. Most of the Netherlands are below sea-level too, but the Dutch seem to manage pretty well. I am sure if they had hurricanes in that part of the world they'd still manage. Doing the right thing means being ready to spend money, and levy taxes to raise the money. And not voting for politicians who won't do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bill D Date: 31 Aug 12 - 06:36 PM Bobert "Missouri would be perfect location for one of these deep water lake/reservoirs..." Missouri actually knows how to do such projects. I visited this one about 1970. It is not on the huge scale you suggest, but it's a good example of what can be done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 12 - 06:56 PM That's a mud puddle compared to what I have in mind, Bill... I'm talking something along the lines of Lake Erie and since it would be man made it could meander around existing towns and could actually come back to the Mississippi... I know it is far-fetched but, hey, the future presents some serious problems and opportunities... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:11 PM Since Hurricane Katrina in 2005, the Army Corps of Engineers has backed away from the idea of extending protection across much of south Louisiana. Engineers are concerned that improved levees might not work, and they question whether the money could be better spent elsewhere.[like turtle tunnels] But none of that sits well with locals, who feel abandoned by the federal government. The turtles are happier though. http://www.wfaa.com/news/national/168196736.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: pdq Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:17 PM The turtle tunnels cost pocket change. I am happy to be kind to dumb animals. Give it a rest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: kendall Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:27 PM Can someone tell me why in the name of common sense, did they put a city there anyway? A Woodchuck knows better than to make his home in a flood plain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:37 PM Turtles ain't half as dumb as Sawz... He would have us believe that the mean ol' gov-mint had a choice between turtles and more levees??? I mean, that is dumber than dumb... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 31 Aug 12 - 09:09 PM "People tend to build cities in floodplains." The tension between access to the sea for trade and floodplain agriculture, and cities, "has existed since the dawn of civilization" according to Greg Aldrete, historian at Univ. Wisconsin, Green Bay. http://www.livescience.com/11160-man-nature-floods-win.html Sacramento, CA, is built at the confluence of the Sacramento and American Rivers, and has been characterized as a disaster waiting to happen. Ames, Iowa, has been flooded. Now they try to build above the 100-year floodplain level (determining this is often guesswork). Flooded cities on the Yangtze, China. There is a long list. And didn't some UK cities get flooded recently? |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 12 - 09:13 PM Q is 100% correct... Cities happen because of intersections, rivers, gaps in mountains, old walking paths and a multitude of other reasons... In a perfect world all cities would be in perfect places... This ain't a perfect world... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 31 Aug 12 - 09:20 PM "A million homes built on flood plains could be denied insurance." Sean Poulter, Mail online. Measure suggested by Association of British Insurers. This paper is always crying wolf, but what happened in June in England can happen again- and again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 12 - 09:25 PM Millions or property owners in America pay FEMA flood insurance... I do... I own a commercial property that is in the 100 year flood plain so I pay it... Of course, Paul Ryan would rather that money go to so private company that can turn you down when you property gets flooded... I feel safer with the federal government than Acme Insurance Co... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: pdq Date: 31 Aug 12 - 09:43 PM "Sacramento, CA, is built at the confluence of the Sacramento and American Rivers, and has been characterized as a disaster waiting to happen." ~ Q It is a disaster. You obviously have never been there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 12 - 09:47 PM Lots of places look perfectly okay except they aren't when the 100 flood arrives... The the choice comes down to who you trust to insure your property... Boss Hog Insurance, Inc. or the US Government... It's a no brainer... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Don Firth Date: 31 Aug 12 - 09:54 PM I live on Seattle's Capitol Hill, elevation 420 feet. No rivers nearby. Nearest body of water is a concrete-lined reservoir in nearby Volunteer Park, about four blocks away. And I can swim like a fish. So I'm not sweatin' the flood thing. #### By the way, since when are the levees around New Orleans "Obama's levees?" Is this part of the Right-Wing nut-cases' contention that Obama had the clouds seeded on order to create hurricane Isaac as an attempt to disrupt the Republican convention? (By the way, I didn't make that up. Rush Limbaugh said so, and it's out there on the web. I'm surprised Sawzaw hasn't picked up on it yet.). Just curious....... Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bill D Date: 31 Aug 12 - 10:23 PM When I worked for EPA in 1970-71, we saw a film by a well-known ecological (engineer?) about flood plains and the dangers. He proposed restrictions on what COULD be allowed in various levels of flood plains. At the same time, St. Louis was building a 'fill' project in the river to have more space to sell to development. ...In fairly recent years, a couple of entire small towns have moved to higher ground after being flooded several times. If population density doesn't ease, people will continue to build in 'handy' spots, no matter what the danger, and it will usually be the poor who can't choose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 01 Sep 12 - 12:48 PM Ahhhh, just who controls the levees and who is responsible for them? N.O. ________ Don Duck ______ The Federal Governemnt _______ Like I said, red herring.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Sep 12 - 01:06 PM pdq- I have a brother-in-law in a Sacramento suburb, close enough to the river, that we walked the dogs along the margins of one of the river channels (with broad sandy and muddy areas covered when the flow is high). The rice harvest from the area is a a major supplier to the world market. I presume you don't like the City, but I found it interesting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bill D Date: 01 Sep 12 - 02:37 PM OH, that's great! Growing rice is a fine use for certain low, wet areas. I hadn't realized it was a serious project out there. Better than apartment buildings and shopping centers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: pdq Date: 01 Sep 12 - 03:10 PM 4th Grade - Math LESSON PROBLEM: Computation: How much do U.S. farmers grow of the world supply of rice? STUDY GUIDE American farmers are important suppliers of rice to the world. Rice is the most important grain to more than two-thirds of the world's population, followed by wheat and corn. Rice farming has changed a lot since the first rice seed was brought to America from Madagascarin 1665 . Farmers today no longer use mules and oxen to pull farming equipment as they did on the first rice farms in South Carolina. Also, it doesn't take hundreds of man-hours per acre to plant, harvest, and prepare rice by hand. Instead, modern farmers use lasers, computers, airplanes and huge machines to help with the work. These new methods of growing rice have improved production. In 1915, American farmers had to plant about 740,000 acres to produce 12 million hundred-pound sacks of rice. Today, U.S. farmers produce about 210 million hundred-pound sacks of rice yearly on 350,000,000 acres of land. The six rice-producing states are Arkansas, California, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, and Texas. Arkansas heads the list, growing 86,000,000 hundred-pound sacks of rice on 1,410,000 acres. California turns out 43,600,000 hundred-pound sacks of rice on 535,000 acres. That's more than a ton or two! While America's farmers are busy raising rice, the world stands in line to buy it. The United States exports 3 million metric tons of rice a year. Only Thailand and Vietnam export more rice, at 5.5 million and 4 million metric tons, respectively. So, who does buy our rice? Europe, Japan, and Mexico each buy more than 300,000 metric tons a year. One hundred countries throughout the world depend on us to produce rice for them to buy, including our neighbor Canada. Rice grows on all continents except Antarctica. Even so, many countries do not have land that will grow rice or some countries just can't cultivate enough rice for their people. You can be proud that American rice farmers are experts at growing rice. There are bags of rice all over the world that say "Made in the U.S.A." |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Sep 12 - 03:49 PM Rice farmers outside U.S. not happy with subsidies that the U.S. growers get. Haitian farmers recently called on the U.S. to halt subsidies which makes U.S. rice cheaper than theirs. Ghana also hurt, Recent article in the Guardian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: gnu Date: 01 Sep 12 - 04:07 PM I bought 8kg of USA rice for $14 a couple of days ago. $5 more than rice from Thailand. Better quality but that would not have mattered. Someone has to support building the levees. Republicans never did... the fuckers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 01 Sep 12 - 05:28 PM Yo, Sawz... Hate to bring it to your attention but for the umpteenth time it is *dishonest* to take things out of context... Just because your lying Republican heroes are doing it doesn't make it any less *dishonest*... The quote you have used is from another thread with an entirely different set of circumstances, arguments, discussions, etc... But, for the record, the ***actual context*** had to do with the federal government (under Bush) had met it's obligations in terms of keeping the water from the Mississippi River and from Lake Pontchartrain out New Orleans... Any time you want to quit with your dishonesty is fine with me... You're making yourself look like a fool... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 01 Sep 12 - 06:24 PM Ahhhh, just who controls the levees and who is responsible for them? Whoever owns them! If they were built by the Corps of Engineers, the feds own them and are responsible for them. But if a town paid to have its own levee built, the town is responsible for it. What's so hard to understand about that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 01 Sep 12 - 06:41 PM Don't confuse Sawz with fact, Beeze... He now knows this... He discovered this fact when I brought it to his attention and he said that I "might be right" and promised to come back and admit that he was wrong if he found that I was right... But rather than do that he is just playing stupid games to avoid having to say he was wrong... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: NOMADMan Date: 01 Sep 12 - 11:07 PM pdq, I am wondering about the source of your information regarding rice production/exports. The information as presented was *strange* to say the least. Ordinarily, when stating production statistics for a fungible commodity like rice - or when stating quantities as traded in the international commodity markets, the quantities are stated in metric tons (tonnes) - 1,000 kilograms, equal to about 2,204.6 pounds per MT. Stating it in terms of numbers of hundred-pound sacks is simply bizarre. To put things in context, here are the published statistics on rice production in metric tons for the top ten rice-producing nations for the year 2010, in order: 1) China - 197,212,010 2) India - 120,620,000 3) Indonesia - 66,411,500 4) Bangladesh - 49,355,000 5) Vietnam - 39,988,900 6) Myanamar - 33,204,500 7) Thailand - 31,597,200 8) Philippines - 15,771,700 9) Brazil - 11,308,900 10) USA - 11,027,000 In total, that's over 576 million metric tons produced by just the top ten producers, without taking into account the rest of the world. The leading producer, not surprisingly, is China - far and away. The US clocks in at number 10. The 3 million tonnes of exports quoted in your post, while not insubstantial, hardly amount to a world waiting in line to buy it. Again, I am wondering what was the source of the text of that post. For anyone even modestly familiar with the movement of commodities in international markets, it was really, really strange. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Sep 12 - 12:40 AM Sawzaw, you're a vitreolic fool. You're so full of hate for the Obama administration that you can't take a moment to a) read and b) think before you waste time and space here starting another half-assed thread. Consider this a virtual dope slap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:34 AM About 1 million people in coastal Louisiana live outside the massive levee system that protects greater New Orleans, and almost all of them are at risk of flooding during a major storm. For decades, Louisiana has pressed the federal government to erect larger, stronger levees in areas vulnerable to hurricanes. The calls for better protection intensified after Isaac. "These people don't deserve this," Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu told WVUE-TV near Braithwaite, a community flooded to the rooftops when a nearby non-federal levee was overwhelmed by Isaac's storm surge. "We have to fight harder and stronger for protection for everyone. You know, on one side of the levee it's completely dry. Houses are safe. Families are going back to normal. And on the other side, it's a nightmare." Matt Ranatza, a farmer in Jesuit Bend, a town left out of the federal system in Plaquemines, said the situation makes him "insane." "There's a perfectly good levee right behind my house that they could have fixed, and that's the levee that was in danger of overtopping," he said. "For them to just say we're not going to do it there is criminal." Huey Galmiche, an oil services salesman who evacuated to escape Isaac, said the parish was worth saving because it is a hub for the oil and natural gas industry. Anytime the main highway gets flooded, oil production is cut off. "So that's costing us money for me and everybody that buys a gallon of gas, OK?" he said. "Raising the levee in the long run probably saves money." Katrina killed about 1,400 people in New Orleans and caused flooding that covered about 80 percent of the city. The disaster exposed the corps' engineering standards as weak and unreliable, which led to revisions that made new levee systems even more expensive. In the hurricane's aftermath, the corps was given $14 billion to protect New Orleans with new floodgates and floodwalls and higher levees. But none of those efforts encompassed the many smaller communities beyond the city, and the agency has struggled to offer those areas any added defenses. In June, the corps scrapped plans to build a $1 billion levee system to protect areas between the Mississippi River and Bayou Lafourche southwest of New Orleans. The agency said it could not find an economically feasible way to build levees or raise enough homes to guard parts of nine parishes against a storm with a mere 1 percent chance of occurring in any given year, also known as 100-year protection. Meanwhile, another big-ticket levee project designed to protect Houma, the Morganza-to-the-Gulf project, is on hold because of similar doubts about costs and benefits. At a news conference Friday, Landrieu said she hoped the levee issue would get the attention of Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney, who was touring damaged areas. She wanted Romney to see that the Corps of Engineers is underfunded. "I realize that he's all about cutting the federal budget," Landrieu said. "But this is one agency that cannot, absolutely cannot, take any additional cuts." For now, Louisiana is putting its hopes on money the state expects to get in coming years from increased offshore oil and gas royalties and other sources, such as money BP PLC is expected to pay for damage caused by its 2010 oil spill. Still, even Louisiana has begun to second-guess the wisdom of trying to protect everything. This year, the state issued a master plan that put emphasis on building so-called "ring levees" around towns and cities instead of erecting great wall-like systems to shield larger areas. "We've drawn some lines in the sand," said Joseph Suhayda, a coastal oceanographic consultant. "There is a lot of area to protect, and the population density and property has got to factor in there somewhere." But building levees takes time, and it's not clear that they are a reliable, long-term solution. In Louisiana's poor soil conditions, levees sink and must be raised up every once in a while with new dirt. It can be costly to find suitable material to build them. Besides that, the Louisiana coast is steadily eroding due to rising sea levels, oil drilling and even levee building that stops spring floods from replenishing marshes. The state has lost about 1,900 square miles of land since the 1930s, and scientists warn that more will follow. Paul Kemp, a coastal geologist who heads the National Audubon Society's Gulf Coast Initiative, said many people in Louisiana are drawing back from the coast and behind the better levees systems. "Look at Plaquemines since Katrina," Kemp said. "It has not been rebuilt. It's a bunch of trailers. That's what the future holds: People will have a house behind the levee and then have something more disposable outside the levees." More here |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:07 AM So what, Saws??? Reread the name of your own thread... You keep changing the subject... BTW, if you are all that concerned about levees to protect everything along the Mississippi then start another thread... Sheesh... What a complete loser... Why not just admit that you are wrong here??? 'Cause you are... 100% wrong... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: pdq Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:27 AM NOMADman... I copied a whole page from a 4th grade lesson plan. Accuracy is not always part of the plan when teaching our grade schoolers. However, the statement is "exports" the most rice. China has 1.6 billion people who all want rice, so the certainly can't export any. I would assume they are the largest producers. I have heard that "without the US food exports, 20% of the World's people would starve". That is one of the reasons we are such a huge comsumer of energy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Arkie Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:32 AM When people have no substance to their argument, they resort to misdirection and outright lies. While it is not new, this has been skillfully polished over the past decade. And it does require a willingness to believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:41 AM Oh, I get it now! The failure of the Plaquemines levee was Obama's fault because he didn't authorize a gazillion dollars to federalize and rebuild all the non-federal levees along the Mississippi! And here I thought right-wingers were all about NOT spending federal money. Could it be that Sawzaw is a closet tax-and-spend liberal? |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: EBarnacle Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:38 AM You almost have it. Tea Partiers believe that all nonessential spending should be eliminated. That means anything that does not directly impact them. Highways, nah. Infrastructure in general, nah. Education, nah. and on and on. Imagine what our civil aviation system would be like and would cost if it were totally privatised. I shudder to think of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Wesley S Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:40 AM "You keep changing the subject..." Bobert - I think you're missing the point. Sawzaw never intended this thread to be about the levees and if they failed or not. The objective was to jerk our chains and troll for reactions. It worked and he won. Now he'll move on to the next troll thread and see if it works again. My guess - it will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:49 AM "Then I sneak out to Mudcat when them's is asleep and light stink bombs here in the Catbox... I know I shouldn't do it but " |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Sep 12 - 11:29 AM For decades, Louisiana has pressed the federal government to erect larger, stronger levees in areas vulnerable to hurricanes"We were told this [the $787 billion stimulus] was going to be a massive infrastructure spending program," says Veronique De Rugy, a senior research fellow at George Mason University's Mercatus Center. She argues that the bill is overflowing not with needed infrastructure spending, but with hundreds of billions in pork.Now the majority of the $787 billion isn't pork. Indeed, tax relief alone makes up some 34 percent of the bill. Where you might find the pork is in the so-called discretionary spending portion of the bill, which amount to $308 billion, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Of that money, $48 billion goes to the Department of Transportation for various rail and road projects to repair and expand infrastructure. That leaves about $260 billion of discretionary spending that goes to various federal agencies, as well as to state and local governments. How much of that amount helps special interests instead of the economy as a whole? That depends, of course, on what you consider a special interest. But decide for yourself. Here is a list of some of the most controversial individual pieces of discretionary spending that might have the pleasant taste of pork. 1) Green golf carts. Ever rode a "neighborhood electric vehicle?" Well, you might want to now. The stimulus includes a tax credit toward the purchase of NEVs, which closely resemble golf carts in appearance. They are considered green vehicles because they use an electric battery instead of gasoline. You fill it up with juice by plugging it into a home electrical outlet. Don't expect to be able to take your NEV far outside of your neighborhood, though. Federal regulations limit their top speed to between 20 and 25 miles per hour. Freeway cruising is out. Those aren't the only green vehicles getting stimulus subsidies. There is also $300 million to buy "green" cars for federal employees. more here |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: NOMADMan Date: 02 Sep 12 - 12:14 PM These will be my final words on the rice production/export question. I don't think this is really worth a huge, extended discussion. I think it is fair to say that a 4th-grade lesson plan is probably not the best place to look for statistics on trading of a significant foodstuff in the international market. It is apparent that whoever wrote it just selected a few random statistics and wasn't quite knowledgeable about what he/she was looking at. We ended up with a nice, neat story, quite properly aimed at relatively unsophisticated 9-year-olds. Also, there is no indication of the time frame covered. The data look rather outdated. For the record, here are the estimates of rice exports for the current year for the top 5 rice-exporting countries, again in millions of metric tons: 1) Thailand - 8.0 2) Vietnam - 7.0 3) India - 6.5 4) Pakistan - 4.6 5) USA - 3.1 These figures will change marginally from one year to the next, but in general, this is what we can expect for the foreseeable future. About the statement that "without the US food exports, 20% of the world's people would starve": This is a glib statement that has been circulating for some time. It keeps getting repeated over and over. I don't think it has ever or could ever be substantiated. Be aware though, that food production and distribution is a huge, multi-multi billion dollar business. There is lots of money to be made producing and selling food. There is nothing wrong with that. It is the way things work. Wherever there is money to be made producing or selling a good or service, someone will do it. So, I believe it would be more accurate to say "Without the US food exports, 20% of the world's people would be served by someone else." One last note - as the world's climate continues to undergo drastic changes, some countries/regions will see their ability to produce food increase and others will see theirs decrease. We have no guarantee that the US will not fall into the latter category. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Sep 12 - 12:33 PM Read the Wiki article to get a more balanced view of NEV vehicles. These would be very useful in my neighborhood, which is residential; a small shopping center with full service grocery plus 7-11, superdrug mart, full service restaurant, coffee-shop, Dairy Queen and a gourmet cook-to-order, dentist and veterinarian, liquor store, cleaners, service station and etc. Several schools in walking distance and a community center, and two golf courses. Speed limit max 30mph. There are many similar neighborhoods in the U.S. and Canada. In other words, leaving the neighborhood is necessary to get to work and special needs shopping, or a medical clinic, but much of the life of the community is within walking or NEV distance. Most of us, however, fire up the car or SUV to go to the shopping center. I don't think any bills in the U.S. Congress can get passed without giving money to state governments. No one has ever been able to do that. Much of it goes for legitimate purposes but it is local officials and voters who determine priorities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Sep 12 - 01:24 PM China was a major wheat exporter, but drought and floods this year will cut exports of grains. China a large rice exporter. 500 (1000M) tonnes in 2011, but 2,583 (1000M)tonnes in 2002; depending on growing conditions. http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?country=cn&commodity=milled-rice&graph=exports |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: gnu Date: 02 Sep 12 - 02:32 PM Q... yup... ya check out the price of bread stuffs in the past week? Here, an increase of over 12% "overnight". If ya wanna buy ONE roll at Sobeys... $0.49 EACH! A fookin little bun or roll is 49p??? My over is gonna get a LOT of use this winter! |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Sep 12 - 02:48 PM There has been a 30 percent increase in the price of wheat, and futures traders expect that to increase to 50 percent. Rice, corn, whatever, all are experiencing hefty price increases. Grocery prices of necessity will go up because of their higher materials (ingredients) costs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: pdq Date: 02 Sep 12 - 03:17 PM "Rice, corn, whatever, all are experiencing hefty price increases." Anybody want to comment on the Harry Reid-Nancy Pelosi bio-fuels bill than is now law? It demands that we process 35 billion bushels of corn into ethol alcohol each year to be burned in our cars as fuel. That bill doubled the cost of tacos in this country and Mexico almost overnight. It also started the clearing of the tiny amount of remaining natural habitat left in the great Midwest so it could be planted in low-yeilding non-watered corn. Anybody want to comment? |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: EBarnacle Date: 02 Sep 12 - 04:08 PM The issue of using corn and sugar is a direct result of laws meant to exclude foreign sugar from the US to favor american farmers. If we wanted to [Read if Congress were interested in protecting consumers] we could lower the cost of alcohol diluted fuel overnight just by making this change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Sep 12 - 04:19 PM In October, corps officials said the South Lafourche Levee District’s federal levee system failed its regular inspection. Among problems cited: Some levees were built with substandard material and slopes that are too steep, which the corps says puts the community at risk.HOUMA â€" A local levee leader is criticizing the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for not holding up its end of the bargain in providing hurricane protection for south Lafourche residents. South Lafourche Levee Manager Windell Curole wrote the critical letter to the corps, saying it has provided nothing but “criticism and hardship,â€쳌 as his levee district is facing costly upgrades to bring levees back into compliance after they failed a federal levee inspection. "You never finished what you agreed to do before, and then you changed the rules on us," Curole said in an interview. While the Army Corps manages the Larose-to-Golden Meadow levee, the South Lafourche Levee District has done all recent construction on the levee system because federal money to support construction on the project never materialized. The corps authorized the levee system in 1965, but the agency failed to finish the project. More here |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:39 PM The sentence that should be emphasized is that money for design and construction must come from Congress. The Corps does what it can, but funds were cut during the Bush administration, and a divided Congress under Obama has done nothing but put important works on the back burner. Note that Parish officials did not blame the Corps, and are working with them. Put Katrina in the filter to get all the BS threads on this sad story. No point in repeating it all, it is there for the few that might be interested. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:58 PM Well, here we are pushin' 100 posts and Saws still is as wrong as he was when he started this thread but... ,,,never mind... Normal B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Sep 12 - 08:00 PM "federal money to support construction on the project never materialized" "We were told this [the $787 billion stimulus] was going to be a massive infrastructure spending program" $554,763 to the U.S. Forest Service to allow it to replace the windows in a visitors center at Mount St. Helens, Wash., that is currently closed and which the Forest Service has no plans to reopen. $1.9 million to allow the California Academy of Sciences to send researchers to the Southwest Indian Ocean Islands and east Africa, to capture, photograph, and analyze thousands of exotic ants--with the photographs to be posted on AntWeb, a Web site devoted to organizing and displaying pictures and information on the world's thousands of ant species. $677,462 to researchers at Georgia State University to study why monkeys respond negatively to inequity and unfairness. $712,883 to researchers at Northwestern University using stimulus money in an effort utilizing "artificial intelligence" that will mine jokes from the Internet and "use them to create hilarious presentations that mimic real-life comedians." $456,663 to University of California, Berkeley to support their getting a better understanding of the global circulation in the atmosphere and altitude of clouds on the planet Neptune. $294,958 so that researchers at Wake Forest University can study whether Integral Yoga "can be an effective method to reduce the frequency and/or severity of hot flashes" in menopausal women. $500,000 to pay for blue, 96-gallon, microchip-embedded recycling bins for the city of Dayton, Ohio. "The microchips, which use radio frequency identification technology, are installed in the bin handles, and will be used by the city to track citizen participation in the recycling program." In addition to paying for at least 8,000 bins and equipping collection trucks to read the microchips, another "$500,000 will pay for a consultant to design a campaign promoting recycling." $25 million to Mt. Snow in West Dover, Vt., to replace the Summit Local and Sunbrook chairlifts, construct a 120-million-gallon storage pond for snowmaking, and install additional snowmaking fan guns that take advantage of a provision in the stimulus that make funds available for ski area capital improvements. $193,956 to researchers at Houston's Rice University and the University of Texas in Dallas, who are getting money through the National Science Foundation to estimate the impact of stimulus funds on the perceptions of citizens and the choices of local community decision makers or, in other words, to do a stimulus-funding study of how people feel about the stimulus. $1.1 million to repair a guardrail near a dry man-made lake in the Oklahoma panhandle. $3.4-million for construction of a 13-foot tunnel near Tallahassee, Fla., that will allow turtles and other wildlife to safely cross U.S. Highway 27. $1.7 million for pig odor research in Iowa. All more important than levees to protect peoples' homes and lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:35 PM Ant research- the story. The stimulus bill gave $3 billion to the National Science Foundation. The money was distributed to projects using their peer-review process. The study is on arthropods, a group including ants. Ants offer insight into climate change, the spread of disease, natural disasters. There are key groups that serve as indicators for other taxa, ants being one of them. "Without them, we wouldn't have a functioning ecosystem," says Brian Fisher at the California Institute of Sciences. One line bites never tell the whole story or give the reasoning behind a study. FEMA Budget for 2012 is $45 billion enacted, total request $57 billion. Look in this budget for levee construction. I couldn't find any, most is going to fight terrorism, safeguard borders, etc. http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/budget-bib-fy2012.pdf U.S. ARMY CORPS of ENGINEERS Budget See "President's Fiscal 2013 Budget for U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Civil Works released." and especially "Civil Works Budget for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers." http://www.usace.army.mil/Portals/2/docs/civilworks/press_book/budget2013.pdf $4,731,000,000 provision for the Civil Works program of the U.S.ACE. The summary is on page 4 of the above report. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:38 PM Republican Congressmen, of course, will slash all budgets down to useless tokens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Don Firth Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:40 PM And Queen Isabella financed Columbus's voyage, when everyone KNOWS that he'll only get as far as the horizon and then fall off the edge of the world!! You never can tell what scientific research will turn up. It usually pays for itself in the long run. Only the ignorant and the grossly short-sighted begrudge money spent on scientific research. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: pdq Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:56 PM "... says Brian Fisher at the California Institute of Sciences" No, Brian Fisher is at the California Academy of Sciences. I worked there at one time. Giving money for turtle tunnels, worthy science studies and needed engineering projects are a perfectly good uses of Federal money. Buying votes by giving money to social parasites isn't a reasonable use of taxpayer's money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Don Firth Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:08 PM Ayn Rand considers "social parasites" to be people like the elderly, the homeless, the ill, et al. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:32 PM No matter... Saws lied!!! End of story... Playing his usual games can't change that... Sawz lied... Normal... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:45 AM The Army Corps of Engineers says it will run computer models to determine whether the New Orleans metropolitan area's new hurricane-protection system exacerbated flooding in areas outside the system that were inundated by Hurricane Isaac's storm surge. Officials in a number of those communities, including Lafitte and St. John the Baptist Parish, have said they believe the improved protection for the city and its inner suburbs helped push the water into areas outside the system. View map On Friday, U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., requested that the corps sponsor an independent study to determine whether that is in fact that case. A corps statement issued at 11:30 a.m. today says the corps will model Isaac and its surge; it doesn't say whether the review will be independent. The statement, from corps spokesman, refers to the claims of exacerbated flooding in areas outside the system as "speculation" and notes that "the footprint of the new (Hurricane and Storm Damage Risk Reduction System) is essentially the same as what was in place prior to Hurricane Katrina." It also notes that the corps did "extensive modeling" of the surge barrier placed at the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal, and the modeling "demonstrated that the structure caused insignificant unintended consequences." Of the planned review, the corps statement says: "We expect the results to indicate that changes in surge elevation (as a result of the new system) are minimal but will defer further comment until the science and engineering work is completed." The corps is working on a timeline for the review, according to the statement, which also says that the corps "wishes to express its deepest sympathies to all citizens suffering losses" from Isaac. The results of the review will be posted online when they are complete, the statement says. More Here |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:05 AM I am trying to figure out if Bobert's favorite word is lie, hate or kill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:07 AM "These people don't deserve this," Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu told WVUE-TV near Braithwaite, a community flooded to the rooftops when a nearby non-federal levee was overwhelmed by Isaac's storm surge. "We have to fight harder and stronger for protection for everyone. You know, on one side of the levee it's completely dry. Houses are safe. Families are going back to normal. And on the other side, it's a nightmare." |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:23 AM Depends, Saws... Today, seeing as you continue to post to a tread that has a bald-faced lie in the title it's... ...lie... In other words, Saws, ol buddy... You lied, you now know it and rather than take personal responsibility you just attack me??? In other words, part B... Normal... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:38 AM Did those people deserve that? ___strongly agree ___somewhat agree ___somewhat disagree ___stronly agree |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:40 AM Did those people deserve that? ___strongly agree ___somewhat agree ___somewhat disagree ___strongly disagree |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:47 AM More truth avoidance by the resident mythology peddler... Normal... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: GUEST,TIA Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:52 PM Which people specifically? And what specifically is "that"? Answer those, and your multiple choice begins to become answerable. Until then, it is just a horseshit rhetorical trick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:26 PM No, make that an immature, juvenilistic horseshit rhetorical trick... The boy is so mentally challenged that he is clueless as to just how mentally challenged his posts read... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Greg F. Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:27 PM Or simply horseshit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Don Firth Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:40 PM Sawzaw, wipe the froth off your mouth and go get a rabies shot. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: gnu Date: 04 Sep 12 - 04:30 PM Or have a shot and mellow out dude. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 05 Sep 12 - 04:58 PM "These people don't deserve this," Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu told WVUE-TV near Braithwaite, a community flooded to the rooftops when a nearby non-federal levee was overwhelmed by Isaac's storm surge. "We have to fight harder and stronger for protection for everyone. You know, on one side of the levee it's completely dry. Houses are safe. Families are going back to normal. And on the other side, it's a nightmare." Need more help TIA? Braithwaite, a community meaning a community of people. Did those people deserve that? ___strongly agree ___somewhat agree ___somewhat disagree ___strongly disagree |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:15 PM Well it looks more and more like Bobert might be right but what I am wondering now is were they really Obama's levees. When was the money appropriated? When did the project start? How come ant research was more important than the levees that failed? Notice that I treat Bobert with civility and respect but he does not return the respect? Is that what highly educated humanitarians do? I wonder if DR King ever called anybody a liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: KB in Iowa Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:20 PM what I am wondering now is were they really Obama's levees. When was the money appropriated? When did the project start? Let me ge tthis straight. They were Obama's levees when you thought they failed. Now that it looks like those levees held they are not Obama's levees. Sound about right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: GUEST,kendall Date: 05 Sep 12 - 07:21 PM Never argue with someone whose opinion you do not respect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 05 Sep 12 - 07:26 PM Forget Sawz on this thread... The title is flawed... It is a lie... Sawz knows it... Everyone else knows it... Move on... Nothing to see her but a liar who won't accept personal responsibility... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 06 Sep 12 - 08:34 AM Obama's levees? I might have been wrong about that: "With the first contracts for the project awarded in early 2008 and a scant 500 feet left to go, "it's really astonishing that this project has been built so quickly," adds Cindy Brown, who was born and raised in New Orleans and opted to evacuate as Isaac approached. "I'm very appreciative of that." But residents outside the federally funded system didn't fare as well. Communities along the western edge of Lake Ponchartrain flooded, and then communities on the eastern edge flooded as Isaac's winds shifted. Plaquemines Parish, which sports an 8-1/2 foot, nonfederal levee, experienced severe flooding that killed two people. Dozens had to be rescued, many of them people who ignored mandatory evacuation orders." http://www.minnpost.com/christian-science-monitor/2012/09/now-surge-tested-levees-around-new-orleans-get-post-isaac-inspecti |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 06 Sep 12 - 09:01 AM No, Saws... No "might have been wrong" about it... You ****were wrong***... BTW, if you want the federal government to spend even more money in New Orleans write or call the Republican reps in the House of Representatives and request that that they approve the funding... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 06 Sep 12 - 09:50 AM Yep, I was wrong Bobert. They were not Obama's levees. "With the first contracts for the project awarded in early 2008 and a scant 500 feet left to go, "it's really astonishing that this project has been built so quickly," adds Cindy Brown, who was born and raised in New Orleans and opted to evacuate as Isaac approached. "I'm very appreciative of that." But residents outside the federally funded system didn't fare as well. Communities along the western edge of Lake Ponchartrain flooded, and then communities on the eastern edge flooded as Isaac's winds shifted. Plaquemines Parish, which sports an 8-1/2 foot, nonfederal levee, experienced severe flooding that killed two people. Dozens had to be rescued, many of them people who ignored mandatory evacuation orders." |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 06 Sep 12 - 09:56 AM Great, Saws... Now you might request that the name of your thread be changed to something more appropriate... I do agree that there's a lot more work to be done if folks want to live in a bowl... Me??? I know what water can do to your house... No thanks... That's why I'm a hillbilly... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:56 AM A graceful acceptance Bobert. Thanks. I jumped the gun but in the process I discovered that the money was appropriated and the work began back in 2006 if I am not mistaken. It is very difficult to find. Also when Katrina hit they were in the process of doing an upgrade that began years before and I don't believe even that upgrade would have saved NO from the flooding. Also the Army corps admitted to screwing up the design and construction and admitted trying to blame it on local authorities. There is an account on Wikipedia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 07 Sep 12 - 09:18 AM Bottom line is that New Orleans, while it has some very unique problems, isn't the only city that is a ticking time bomb... New York City, for instance, is built over a maze of 100 year-old-plus infrastructure, including pipes carrying natural gas... The entire Southeast section of the nation's capitol used to be swamp land and if a Katrina were to hit D.C. we'd see some of the same things there... I saw those things happen to Richmond, Va. once during a hurricane and the flooding in Fulton Bottom and East Main Street was horrendous... We have thousands of unsafe bridges that collectively carry millions of cars every single day... Bottom line, Part 2... If there was ever a time for the nation to buckle down and attack it's infrastructure problems that time is now... Interest rates are low and unemployment high... The deficit isn't our biggest problem right now... Fixing our broken country, putting people back to work and making the country more competitive are... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Ebbie Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:35 PM Bobert: "If there was ever a time for the nation to buckle down and attack it's infrastructure problems that time is now..." I fully agree. During the Great Depression a lot of 'make work' gave many Americans a paycheck, everything from the arts to construction, and the country has been better for it ever since. If crews all across the land were put to work tearing out and replacing cities' plumbing, wiring and fuel lines, erecting or rebuilding bridges, repairing historical landmarks and taking a myriad of other positive steps, this country would come out on the other side fresher, safer and more hopeful. States and the Federal government could hammer out an equitable plan for the monies needed. In any case, it would pay for itself many times over. |
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Subject: LYR ADD: Wishing Well ~ Paul Rogers From: pdq Date: 07 Sep 12 - 07:15 PM Wishing Well ~ Paul Rogers Take off your hat kick off your shoes, I know you ain't going anywhere. Run 'round the town singing your blues I know you ain't going anywhere. You have always been a good friend of mine but you're always saying farewell and the only time that you are satisfied is with your feet in the wishing well. Throw down your gun you might shoot yourself, or is that what you are tryin' to do, put up a fight you believe to be right and someday the sun will shine through. You have always got something to hide something you just can't tell { From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/p/paul-rodgers-lyrics/wishing-well-lyrics.html } and the only time that you are satisfied is with your feet in the wishing well. Oh! But I know what you're wishing for Love in a peaceful world Yeah Love in a peaceful world Oh! Yeah Love in a peaceful world You have always been a good friend of mine but you're always saying farewell and the only time that you are satisfied is with your feet in the wishing....well. Yes I wish you well I wish you well everybody has a wish everybody has a dream I wish you well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: gnu Date: 07 Sep 12 - 07:27 PM Ebbie... hear hear! Shout it out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 07 Sep 12 - 07:40 PM You may call me a dreamer but I'm not the only one... Everything good in the world started as a dream or idea, moved on to wish and from wish to reality... Yeah, we probably won't get anywhere soon but unless we are willing to see the country deterioriat3e down to nothing then there will be a time when the wishes become reality... b~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Raptor Date: 07 Sep 12 - 07:41 PM All the hate for the opposing parties involved here demonstrates why the people who are suffering take a back seat to the cause of finding someone to blame. The mudslinging on both sides is unbelievable. Who cares who was responsible How about Whay can we do to prevent this from ever happening again? |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Ebbie Date: 07 Sep 12 - 07:45 PM pdq, you are snide. You know very well that my "wishes" are not unreasonable, unrealistic,or unneeded. Furthermore, they are do-able Many, many cities across this nation have decayed water lines, sewage piping and all that I mentioned. Far better than playing 'catch up' is a plan to get to work on them. Crisis management is far more expensive in the long run. If I were you, I'd be ashamed of myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 08 Sep 12 - 02:41 PM I am irked by the fact that Stimulus money was spend on "important" things like ant study and not on things for people. Schools, books computers levees. Thing that will have a lasting benefit for humans like the CCC projects. We are still benefiting from the CCC and enjoying things that would be unaffordable today. The Army Corps decided it was "not worth" fixing the levees that failed be cause the parishes were sparsely populated. But we know more about ants now and the turtles are happier, more so than the people that lost everything they had. " As the cleanup began Friday, an old debate grew more urgent: Is it worth billions of dollars to build better levees in areas that are sparsely populated and naturally flood-prone? Since Hurricane Katrina in 2005, the Army Corps of Engineers has backed away from the idea of extending protection across much of south Louisiana, citing doubts about whether improved levees would work and whether the money could be better spent elsewhere.[like ant studies]" |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Sawzaw Date: 08 Sep 12 - 03:10 PM From a dream/idea to a wish to reality: 30 million people starved to death. In January 1958, Mao Zedong launched the second Five-Year Plan, known as the Great Leap Forward, a plan intended as an alternative model for economic growth to the Soviet model focusing on heavy industry that was advocated by others in the party. Under this economic program, the relatively small agricultural collectives which had been formed to date were rapidly merged into far larger people's communes, and many of the peasants were ordered to work on massive infrastructure projects and on the production of iron and steel. Some private food production was banned; livestock and farm implements were brought under collective ownership. Under the Great Leap Forward, Mao and other party leaders ordered the implementation of a variety of unproven and unscientific new agricultural techniques by the new communes. Combined with the diversion of labor to steel production [which was totally worthless melted down scrap iron made in peoples back yard] and infrastructure projects, these projects combined with cyclical natural disasters led to an approximately 15% drop in grain production in 1959 followed by a further 10% reduction in 1960 and no recovery in 1961. In an effort to win favor with their superiors and avoid being purged, each layer in the party hierarchy exaggerated the amount of grain produced under them. Based on the fabricated success, party cadres were ordered to requisition a disproportionately high amount of the true harvest for state use, primarily in the cities and urban areas but also for export. The net result, which was compounded in some areas by drought and in others by floods, left rural peasants with little food for themselves and many millions starved to death in the largest famine known as the Great Chinese Famine. This famine was a direct cause of the death of some 30 million Chinese peasants between 1959 and 1962 and about the same number of births were lost or postponed. Further, many children who became emaciated and malnourished during years of hardship and struggle for survival died shortly after the Great Leap Forward came to an end in 1962. "Forward" Sound familiar? |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: gnu Date: 08 Sep 12 - 03:59 PM Here's something that sounds familiar to me. The Chinese invested in infrastucture and education and, contary to what all the speeches at the recent conventions said, they are kicking ass. Something puzzles me. If the Chinese are so stunned as me arse like I hear people say, why are there so many of them? Why are we buying so much stuff from them? Why... you get the idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 08 Sep 12 - 05:07 PM ""Who cares who was responsible How about Whay can we do to prevent this from ever happening again?"" The first and most important action required to stop it happening again is surely to find out who is responsible! How else will you know who to tackle? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Bobert Date: 08 Sep 12 - 08:01 PM Mao nudged a very backward country a little further down the road toward becoming a modern society... One cannot appreciate the complexities of doing that by using one's *own* circumstances as the prism with which to judge Mao's importance... Mao didn't operate as this monolithic seer & doer that had complete control over everything in China... China was a tribal nation of half a billion people... That's all anyone can do... Look around at the circumstances and do the best you can with what you have... That's what Mao did... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: IsaacGate Obama's Levees Fail From: Stringsinger Date: 09 Sep 12 - 10:59 AM Bush was responsible for the devastation of Katrina and you are naive if you think Romney would do better. Obama is still picking up the pieces. |
