learning to play by ear?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 08:45 PM

I just spotted this: Folk tune books give you little in the way of how to play the tune. They give you the notes to play.

They give you nothing in the way of how to play a tune. They may even mislead you. A 6/8 time signature at the front of a jig, for example, conveys a mechanical notion of something that is as un-mechanical and fluid as can be. A 4/4 time signature in front of a reel gives no hint as to the potential for playing the tune with a bit of lilt. Anyone who even thinks they can notate a slow air is nothing less than a scoundrel. And tune books don't even give you the notes to play. They give you the notes that the person who wrote down that version thinks you should play. The first thing you have to do is to go out with your new tune and be put right. I honestly can't understand why anyone would want to deliberately put such obstacles in their way when they could learn tunes by hearing them played.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 09:46 PM

One tends to think, Steve, that you still know precisely zilch about listening.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 10:19 PM

"Learning from books taught me entirely the wrong message, that there is a correct version and that you should pontificate about it should you come up against someone not playing it Mally's way. And it taught me precisely zilch about active listening as I learned, the need for flexibility, the subtleties of rhythm and how to vary and ornament tunes. So I have every idea, you see."

Steve, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the problem is yours.

I knew right from the start (having read a bit about folk music and its travels from person to person and place to place over the years—or centuries), having run across the same song or ballad in several different books and noting that there are differences—some extensive, some minor—in both words and tune.

When I learn a song, I have to make choices, not just which version to learn, but which small variations in essentially the same version. Choices. And sometimes I make small changes myself, if a line sings awkwardly—or if I hear someone else sing the same song, but slightly different from the way I do it, and I like their way better.

And I pay close attention to the WORDS of the song, and this informs the way the song should be delivered.

And I play a fair amount of classical guitar music, learned from sheet music. I have to pay attention to the sounds that come out of the guitar when I play the notes on the page--and LEARN FROM THAT. The music itself can teach you how it should be played.

This is not ESP. Musicians of all kinds do it all the time!

Oh, sure, I've had the occasional person tell me that I'm doing it all wrong, but none with any real authority beyond the fact that they like the version they know better than the one I do.

Once, in the late Fifties or early Sixties, when I was singing in a Seattle coffee house, one of the patrons asked me to sing "The Sloop John B.", which I proceeded to do. He complained afterward that I "didn't do it right."

"What do you mean?" I asked. I had learned it from Carl Sandburg's The American Songbag, somewhat modified by having heard my friend Walt Robertson sing it.

"You didn't sing it the way the Kingston Trio does it," he griped.

Well lah-dee-bloody-dah!! I would not consider THEM to be the arbiters of the way folk music should be done.

And in your last post, Steve:   this tells me that YOU don't really know how to read music.   I hate to say this, but a fundamental lack of musicality. In much the same way as when some people read a poem, they characteristically do it in a sing-song, allowing themselves to be a slave to the rhyme and the meter—with apparently no knowledge of the MEANING of what they are reading.

When you play the tune through from the dots for the first time, and for many more times, you have to listen, and let the music itself inform you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 10:20 PM

And always remember that it is subject to reinterpretation.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 05:34 AM

Easy for "guests" to deliver insults, huh?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 05:42 AM

The first thing you have to do is to go out with your new tune and be put right"
that sounds like you think there is only one correct version of a tune, or/AND only one right way to play it.
   that is WRONG,The tunes were learned and collected from people in different areas, who may have learned them by ear or may have learned them from manuscript, but will have had differing versions, this is IMO FAIRLY LIKELY IF THEY WERE TRANSMITTED BY EAR.
and also possible from notation, human error or even the collectors decision that the musician played a note that the collector thought should be a different one.
the beauty of it all is that there is no correct way or version of a tune, once that happens the music becomes ossified, the folk process comes into play even with composed tunes, that is what makes the music interesting.
PEOPLE WHO TRY TO LAY DOWN RULES ABOUT PLAYING TUNES,are not understanding what the music is about,if someone wants to use staccato or tongueing or no rolls but only trebles or no trebles but trills or rolls, it is not wrong but just stylistically different, that is how music evolves, remember King Cnut he could not stop the tide, neither can any purist stop music developing, they are of course entitled to play how they likeand with whom they like, but there is no RIGHT way

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 05:45 AM

Jeez. Don responds to my opinions about learning tunes by ear by rattling on yet again about learning songs. You know, Don, I thought we'd cleared that one up. Read my lips:

I...am...NOT...talking...about...SONGS! Then you go on about playing classical music, which has very little relevance to the matter at hand but plenty to do, it seems, with your apparent desire to show us what a bright fellow you are.

As for this piece of tosh: this tells me that YOU don't really know how to read music. I hate to say this, but a fundamental lack of musicality.

Well that says it all. You judge, across the Atlantic Ocean, a person's "musicality" from their opinions expressed in an internet forum. Don, I think I can say with confidence that you have not heard me playing in a session. You're all theory, Don. Typical of dot-learners, I'd say...   :-)

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 05:52 AM

Most of what you said there, Dick, is old hat. Yes we know all that. It's all been aired in this very thread of yours. You say there is no "correct version" of a tune. Well, I'll buy that. Believing that would ossify the music, you say. OK. But what do you think a bunch of dots on a page represent? One version, unchanging, someone's opinion of that tune, looking very authoritative in the book's fancy cover. An ossified tune!

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 06:29 AM

"The music itself can teach you how it should be played."

I don't think that's completely true Don, though I can understand where and why one could get that impression. Alfred Brendel, for example, talks of the need to go back to the score to get the best understanding of the composers' intentions. But that understanding does not come from the score alone, the majority of it comes from the musicians' knowledge and understanding of the genre and the composer. Of course, with, for example, Schubert, most of the knowledge comes from the knowledge of the scores, but don't discount the knowledge of the music's history, its place in history and its unbroken line of being regularly performed from its creation to this day.

But are traditional, largely aurally transmitted, musics different? I don't think they are in principal, though the fact that they are such a mile apart in degree can change the onus on the word "Should" to "Could". With a traditional Irish jig (or even a recently composed jig in that genre) for example, I think there can be stuff in the music itself that can teach you something of the way it could be played. There may be a cadence that could indicate the end of a phrase, or the repeat of the same bunch of notes appearing in a different part of the bar that could indicate a bit of syncopation. However, what you won't get from these indications is the traditions of, for example, playing through cadences to disguise obvious phrasing and instead of syncopating accents, playing the accents straight, but on different notes.

And in transcriptions of jigs, you will often find, for example, three notes of each half a bar's triplet that are the same. To someone familiar with genre, this can indicate where a slow roll "would" normally be played. But not "should" of course, even though a performance of such a part of a tune over three repeats that doesn't include the slow roll at least once would seem perverse.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 06:43 AM

One version, unchanging, someone's opinion of that tune, looking very authoritative in the book's fancy cover. An ossified tune!
   no, steve, because the music is only a guide, it is not sacrosanct, it is open to interpretation as regards how it should be played, jigs are not meant to be played evenly, how much they are swung depends on who you are playing with and by listening to other players this can and will vary from session to session, then there is ornamentation sometimes it is marked, then it   is up to the player to dicard it or use it.
finally without manuscripts,some tunes would have died, you might be interested to know that Paddy Cronin[trad sliabh luchra fiddler] goes through books like o neills and other manuscripts looking for forgotten tunes and putting them back into repertoire., so the music does not ossify, if the musicians have a certain attitude, which is to learn both ways, and to interpret and alter tunes[ even when learned from notation]
I bet you could not tell which tunes Paddy had learned from music and which he had learned by ear

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:25 AM

I think the whole argument about the right and wrong way to play play tunes and the correct and incorrect way to play tunes, while not actually dealing in absolutes, is a fundamental pragmatic reality.

I love the phrase, "you've got it all wrong". As in, "Sheesh, oh no no no no no ... that was bloody awful ... you've got it all wrong."

It doesn't mean, of course, that every note was wrong, or even all the notes were wrong. It could even mean, for example, that all the notes were actually right, and in the right order. But while not being specific, there can be no doubt in anyone's mind what the phrase actually means.

Steve has said a few times that he "likes to play he music right". And anyone who understands Irish music, its simplicity, its complexity, its contradictions, its conundrums knows exactly what it means

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:36 AM

And I should like to reiterate. There is a world of difference between authentic variation (which comes from - can only come from - a good deal of listening and playing) and unmusical misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:54 AM

specifically Steve: There is a world of difference between authentic variation (which comes from - can only come from - a good deal of listening to and playing with the right people) and unmusical misunderstanding (which often comes from an inability to hear properly. i.e. an inability to play by ear.)

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:56 AM

But not "should" of course, even though a performance of such a part of a tune over three repeats that doesn't include the slow roll at least once would seem perverse."
   michael, some of the traditional fiddle styles of Donegal,hardly use and sometimes very very rarely use the roll at all, but prefer the bowed ornament, that is not perverse, but fact. there is no obligation on anyone to use rolls, it is a matter of choice, the same applies to bowed ornamentation, bowed ornaments as are heard in Donegal were very rarely used in sliabh luchra, that is not perverses but just different style
playing the music right is subjective, in fact playing any music right is subjective.
to quote Carthy, the only harm you can do to a song is not sing it,
many airs are songs, some tunes were songs, lanigans ball, frost is all over,rocky road to dublin,follow me down to carlow, jolly beggarman, chase me charlie,shan van vocht etc., tunes and songs to a considerable extent are intertwined.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:01 AM

Interesting example of the relationship between notation and performance tradition here:

Interpreting triplets in Highland bagpipe strathspeys

Highland pipers have always used notation (canntaireachd is simply a spoken notation), but there's always been a parallel oral tradition saying how to use the notation, particularly in rhythmic interpretation. But the intention is not to allow free variation - there is a code there to be followed.

To outsiders it can look a bit Masonic.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:02 AM

michael,, in relation to using rolls being perverse
i have marked below,HERE###########################################
about absence of rolls from an article on donegal fiddling under the music section.The following article appeared in Fiddler Magazine, Fall 1995 issue.
The Fiddle Music of Donegal

by Michael Robinson
Background

County Donegal lies in the far north-west corner of Ireland. It is noted for the beauty of its rugged coastline and heather-covered moors. The wildness of its geography has provided a defence against invasion for many centuries.

The older name for Donegal is Tyrconnell ("land of Conall"), commemorating a monarchy founded in the fifth century by Conall Gulban, the son of the famed king Niall of the Nine Hostages. (The name "Donegal", meaning "fort of the foreigners", is thought to derive from a Viking settlement on the site of present-day Donegal Town.) During the Middle Ages Tyrconnell was the principality of the O'Donnells, one of the two major branches of the Uí Neill dynasty that ruled Ulster for more than a thousand years. In 1601 the O'Donnells of Tyrconnell and their cousins the O'Neills of Tyrone were defeated by the English at the Battle of Kinsale and fled to the Continent from Lough Swilly in northern Donegal. After this "Flight of the Earls" the English government began a long-term program of pacifying Ulster by giving land to Protestant settlers from Lowland Scotland. Because of the poor quality of the arable land in Donegal, however, most of these settlers preferred to remain in the rich agricultural lands of eastern and central Ulster. As a result, in 1922, when the present border of the Irish Republic was established, predominately Catholic Donegal was separated from the rest of Ulster and it became a part of the Republic, to which it is connected by a narrow corridor of land.

Donegal has a long connection with Scotland. Before the Flight of the Earls, the Scottish Highlands and Ireland were one region united by a single language and culture. Even today, Scotland is jokingly said to be "the northernmost county of Ulster". During the days when the O'Donnell chiefs ruled Donegal, they based their military might on "gallowglasses", mercenary soldiers from the Scottish Isles, which were ruled at the time by another of the great Gaelic dynasties, the Macdonalds, Lords of the Isles. Musicians—at that time the harpers were the most prestigious—moved freely among the courts of the Gaelic nobility in both Ireland and Scotland, and there was no distinction made between the musical styles of the two countries.

After the fall of the Gaelic aristocracy, Scotland became the key to the economy of Donegal. The English landlords demanded rents in cash from their tenants, but the struggling farmers could barely grow enough to feed and clothe themselves, and the local economy was based mainly on barter, with very little money circulating. The system that evolved was that virtually all the adult men in the poorer areas spent the summer months working as migrant farm-workers in eastern Ulster and Lowland Scotland, earning the money to pay the farm rents. Meanwhile the farms were tended by old men, women and children to grow food and wool for clothing. Although the worst excesses of landlordism were abolished by the late 19th century, Donegal remained a poor region and the pattern of seasonal migration to Scotland continued well into the 20th century.
Music

While Donegal may have been financially impoverished, culturally it is one of the richest areas in the Western world. It is one of the last remaining strongholds of the Irish language, and preserves as well a wealth of folklore and traditional customs. The ancient epic poems of the Celts, composed when the Roman Empire was still in existence, were handed down by memory there to be collected by scholars as late as the 1930s. The poetic tradition of sean-nós ("old style) singing in Irish preserves a body of literature that has its roots in the medieval troubadours. And today Donegal is becoming known for its rich and unique musical tradition.

The noted Tyrone harper Arthur O'Neill (1734-1818) mentioned in his memoirs that in 1760 he was invited to a wedding in Ardara "without my harp, for there were plenty of pipers and fiddlers". It was once a proverb that in Donegal there was a fiddle in every house. While many parts of Ireland have a wealth of traditional music, the music of Donegal has certain unique features which set it apart from the rest.

It is generally agreed that the piping tradition is the heart of modern instrumental Irish music. During the Middle Ages, bagpipes of various kinds became popular with the common people all over Western Europe. In most of Ireland, the uilleann ("elbow") pipes predominate. These are bellows-blown bagpipes played while seated, and are known to be several centuries old (they are mentioned by Shakespeare). In Donegal, however, uilleann pipes were the exception, and the more usual type of bagpipes were the píob mór ("great pipes"), an older type of bagpipes similar to Scottish Highland bagpipes. The sound and range of the píob mór have had a great influence on the Donegal fiddle style.

The uilleann pipes have a rather burbly sound, and the fiddle styles heard in most of Ireland are similar, featuring a burbly ornamentation accomplished mostly with the left hand. The bowing is very legato, with several notes to each bow, and bow changes are de-emphasized by being placed on rhythmically weak notes. In contrast, however, the typical Donegal fiddle style imitates the crackly, sputtering ornamentation of the píob mór. Most notes are played with single bows and there is frequent use of staccato bowed ornamentation. These features are also characteristic of the Cape Breton fiddle style, which is also based on the sound of the Highland pipes.
HERE#################################################################
[The characteristic ornaments of the Southern Irish fiddle style, the long and short roll, are totally absent from the style of most of the older Donegal players, although the younger generation has adopted them to a limited extent. The dominant ornament remains the so-called "bowed triplet"—actually two 16th notes followed by an 8th note. The bowed triplet follows the feel of the characteristic piping ornaments of the píob mór.]############

Preceding the pipes, the origin of Irish music can be found in the sean-nós singing tradition. It is a highly ornamented, complex style featuring elastic rhythms and continuous variation of a basic melody. Sean-nós singing is almost always a solo art. The exception is found in Donegal where occasionally singing in unison or octaves can be heard. Because of the improvisational nature of the continuous melodic variation, such a feat would seem almost to require mental telepathy, and in fact it is only very close relatives who attempt it.

A similar feature is found in fiddle music. Until modern times, Irish music was almost always played by a single solo performer (as is still the case today in the related Cape Breton Scottish tradition). Yet in Donegal there is a long-standing tradition of duo fiddling, again usually performed by close relatives. The fact that so many of the tunes come from the piping repertoire has influenced this style. The range of the píob mór is nine notes—a single octave from A to A, plus the G below. Any tune confined to this range can be played in two different octaves on the fiddle without leaving first position. This is called "reversing" or "bassing". (Fiddling in octaves is also heard in the Kerry fiddle style.)

There are other differences between the Donegal style and the rest of Ireland. Instruments such as the tin whistle, flute, concertina and accordion were very rare in Donegal until modern times. Traditionally the píob mór and the fiddle were the only instruments used. Also, there was a much wider variety of social dance steps in common use there, so musicians were required to play for mazurkas, Germans or barndances, lancers and highlands in addition to the usual jigs, reels and hornpipes found elsewhere in the country. In fact, the music for the highland (a couple dance with a hopping step) is almost as common as reels or jigs in the Donegal repertoire. Many Scottish strathspeys were converted into highlands, as the basic rhythm is quite similar.

The use of pipe or fiddle music was common in old wedding customs. These traditions relate much more closely to Scotland than to the rest of Ireland. The bride would enter the chapel with the fiddler playing Haste to the Wedding. As she walked toward the altar, The Wedding Jig was played. When the marriage contract was signed, The Girl Who Broke My Heart was played on behalf of the local bachelors. At the end, the crowd would return to the bride's house to the tune of Tá Do Mhargadh Déanta ("The bargain is made") or Kiss the Maiden Behind the Bier. Almost as important as the wedding was the "hauling home", which occurred about a month after the wedding—a triumphal procession to bring the bride with her household goods to her husband's house. At this occasion, Bring Home the Bride and Oro, 'Sé Do Bheatha Abhaile ("Oro, welcome home") were among the appropriate tunes.

The most influential musicians in Donegal during the 19th century and the early part of the 20th century were travelling musicians who also worked as tinsmiths. The best known of these is the Doherty family. These travelling musicians were honoured guests in houses throughout the county. During the early times when instruments were hard to come by, they also made fiddles out of tin.

Similar itinerant professional musicians were known throughout Ireland in the 19th century, but in many cases they were jealous of other musicians and very protective of their repertoires. The great collector Francis O'Neill describes a number of such musicians who took countless tunes to the grave with them rather than teach them to anyone else.

Unlike these, the Donegal musicians were generous with their music and the travellers spread a wealth of local tunes to settled musicians elsewhere in the county. The men who worked in Scotland during the summer also brought back a number of tunes of Scottish origin, as well as books of fiddle music and instructional material for the violin. The Donegal fiddlers may well have been the route by which Scottish tunes such as Lucy Campbell, Tarbolton Lodge (Tarbolton) and The Flagon (The Flogging Reel), among many others, entered the Irish repertoire.

These players prided themselves on their technical abilities, which included playing in higher positions (fairly uncommon among traditional Irish fiddlers), and sought out material which would demonstrate their skills. This included tunes learned from brass bands playing with travelling circuses and the British Army (which sent bands out into the countryside during recruiting drives), and the compositions of virtuoso fiddlers such as J. Scott Skinner (1843-1927), the Scottish composer of, among others, The Spey in Spate and The Gladstone Reel, and James Hill from Newcastle (c. 1815- c. 1860), the author of such tunes as The High Level Hornpipe and The Hawk (also called The Belles of St. Louis). Although such virtuoso pieces are elsewhere played nowadays in a semi-classical style, particularly by Scottish performers, the Donegal fiddlers never lost sight of the folk tradition and successfully adapted these tunes to the traditional playing style.
Players

John Doherty was one of the last of the old travelling fiddlers. The musical tradition of the Doherty family can be traced back at least 200 years. John was based in Finntown, but spent much of his life wandering throughout Donegal, where he was a welcome guest wherever he went. He seldom carried a fiddle with him, knowing that one would be provided at any house where he stopped for the night. John was very gifted technically, with an immense repertoire of uncommon tunes which were handed down through his family. His strong, austere playing shows great influence from the píob mór. It is our good fortune that his talents were recognized during his lifetime and a number of recordings of his playing were made. He was one of the last remaining links to the lifestyle of the old traditional musicians. John's brothers Mickey and Simon and his nephew Simon are also known as fiddlers.

Vincent Campbell comes from the Cruacha Gorma or Blue Stack Mountains of central Donegal, an area renowned for its rich traditional culture. His father was a well-known fiddler and the Dohertys were frequent and welcome visitors to the Campbell home. Vincent's vigourous playing makes frequent use of double-stops and fourth finger unisons. He has many unique tunes, which are now being picked up by the younger generation of players.

Francie and Mickey Byrne, from Kilcar in southwest Donegal, epitomise the Donegal duo fiddling style. Kilcar has long been renowned for its fiddling tradition. The brothers were also influenced by a travelling piper named Mickey Gallagher, a relative of the Dohertys. Francie spent a number of years in Scotland, like many of the Donegal players. The duo playing of the brothers mixed deadly accurate unison passages, octave playing, drones and the occasional harmony note. Their playing had a major influence on the duo fiddling featured on recent Altan recordings.

James Byrne, from Mín na Croise in Glencolmcille, is the most well-known modern exponent of the long-standing fiddle tradition of Glencolmcille. This tradition can be traced back to a number of influential 19th century players who traded music freely with the travelling musicians. The blacksmith John Mosey McGinley was perhaps the most famous among many. James Byrne's father John was also a noted fiddler. James is a strong, technically gifted player with a great stock of local tunes. The genial Byrne has done much to ensure the continuation of the Glencolmcille style by generously sharing his knowledge with many younger musicians.

Con Cassidy exemplifies the Teelin style which is a contrast to the fiddle style heard in Kilcar and Glencolmcille, which were known as fiddling areas for generations. Nearby Teelin had no fiddlers until the early 20th century. However, there was a strong tradition of vocal dance music, known as lilting or mouth music. Con's cousins John and Frank Cassidy were among the first fiddlers in Teelin, and they were strongly influenced by the travelling fiddlers Alec and Micky McConnell (relatives by marriage of the Dohertys). The McConnells' style bears the influence of the píob mór, but unlike the Kilcar style where the píob mór sound is imitated by the use of mostly single bowing and staccato bowed triplets, the McConnells used long bowstrokes to imitate the drone of the pipes and copied the complex piping ornaments with the left hand fingers. Their playing is said to have been very similar to that of Angus Grant, a well-known present-day fiddler from the Scottish Highlands. The Teelin style combined the influence of the McConnells and that of the old lilters. The left hand ornamentation is more complex than the short bow style, making use of rolls and chromatic ornaments. The repertoire holds many marches and waltzes in addition to the usual highlands, jigs and reels.

Tommy Peoples Tommy Peoples came originally from St. Johnstown in northeast Donegal, not far from the city of Derry. He learned to play fiddle from his cousin Joe Cassidy. He has travelled widely throughout Ireland and now lives in County Clare. He played with an early version of the Bothy Band in the 1970s, but left the group after their first album. He subsequently made several solo albums. He has introduced many tunes into the Irish repertoire through his own recordings and via other musicians, particularly The Boys of the Lough and Altan. He has a unique personal style, based on the Donegal single bow style, but influenced by Scottish and southern Irish playing as well, featuring driving single bowing, limited melodic ornamentation and a unique "stuttering" bowed triplet that is reminiscent of píob mór ornamentation.

Paddy, Séamus and Kevin Glackin grew up in Dublin, but they learned from their father, Tom Glackin, who came from the region of Dungloe in northwest Donegal. Paddy was particularly influenced by John Doherty, and has recorded a number of Doherty's tunes on his recent recording Rabharta Ceoil. He has also drawn influences from other parts of the Irish music tradition, particularly the uillean piping repertoire.

Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh grew up in the Gaeltacht area of Gaoth Dobhair in north-west Donegal. Her father, Prionsias Ó Maonaigh, is also a noted fiddler. In addition to her superb fiddling, Mairéad is an excellent traditional singer, steeped in the sean-nós tradition. Mairéad married Frankie Kennedy, a flute player from Belfast who spent his summers in Donegal, and after a stint as school teachers they embarked on a career in music, forming the very successful group Altan (named after a lake in the Gaoth Dobhair area). Altan based their style on the Donegal tradition, combining an energetic guitar and bouzouki accompaniment with classic duo fiddling and Frankie's nimble flute-playing. Their repertoire of tunes is drawn from sources such as Mairéad's father Prionsias, the Dohertys, Francie and Mickey Byrne, Con Cassidy, Tom Glackin, Vincent Campbell, Tommy Peoples, James Byrne as well as a host of less well-known players. Currently Mairéad is joined on fiddle by Ciaran Tourish from Buncrana in northern Donegal, who learned from Dinny McLaughlin, a noted local fiddler. Altan's success has done much to increase awareness of the Donegal tradition in the rest of Ireland, and indeed throughout the world.

Sadly, Frankie Kennedy died in autumn 1994 after a long battle with cancer—a loss felt keenly throughout the world of traditional music.
Books:

    The Northern Fiddler, by Allen Feldman and Eamonn O'Doherty (Oak Publications, ISBN 0 7119 0682 3), is a very valuable reference. It contains interviews with John Doherty, Mickey Byrne, Con Cassidy and a number of other fiddlers of the older generation in Donegal and Tyrone, and a large number of transcribed tunes as well.

    The authors do an excellent job of putting the musicians they describe into a historical and social context by means of copious notes and analysis. In addition, the numerous photographs and drawings evoke the visual surroundings in which the music was created.

    Some of the tune titles are inaccurate. Corrected information can be found on the Internet, particularly on the IRTRAD-L list.
    Between the Jigs and the Reels: The Donegal Fiddle Tradition by Caoimhín Mac Aoidh (Drumlin, ISBN 1 873437 08 0) , with a forward by Tommy Peoples, is a new book which, contains a wealth of information on Donegal fiddlers. However, Caoimhín has been involved with Donegal fiddling for many years, and was one of the founders of Cairdeas na. bhFidléirí ("The Fiddlers' Alliance"), which sponsors a number of fiddle-oriented events in the county. This book is the end product of the years he has spent talking to the players and searching historical sources (such as the Arthur O'Neill reference above). It is crammed full of history, folklore, biographies of virtually every well-known player during the last two hundred years, and a thorough discography.

Recordings:

The following recordings should be available from sources stocking traditional music, and are all recommended to those interested in further study of the genre:

Fiddlesticks: Irish Traditional Music from Donegal (Nimbus).

    Live recordings of fiddlers including Ciaran Tourish, Dermot McLaughlin, Séamus and Kevin Glackin, Tommy Peoples, Prionsias Ó Maonaigh and Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh.

Paddy Glackin, Rabharta Ceoil (Gael-Linn).

    His brothers Séamus and Kevin join him on one medley.

Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh and Frankie Kennedy, Ceol Aduaidh and Altan (Green Linnet).

    The band Altan in its formative stages. For the trivia buff, Ceol Aduaidh features another Gaoth Dobhair musician, Eithne Ní Bhraonáin, playing keyboards on one cut—she later changed the spelling of her name to Enya and went on to fame and fortune.

Altan, Horse with a Heart, The Red Crow, Harvest Storm, Island Angel, (Green Linnet), Blackwater (Virgin).

James Byrne, The Road to Glenlough (Claddagh).

    James is joined by second fiddle from Peter Carr or Dermot McLaughlin on some tunes.

The Brass Fiddle: Traditional Fiddle Music from Donegal (Claddagh).

    Recordings of Francie Byrne, James Byrne, Con Cassidy and Vincent Campbell.

John Doherty, John Doherty (Gael-Linn).

John Doherty, Master Fiddler of Donegal: Bundle and Go (Green Linnet).

    Many of the tunes on this recording are transcribed in The Northern Fiddler.

Larry Sanger is attempting to construct the definitive website on Donegal fiddling. It's a good place to find further information.

An interview with Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:14 AM

Politesse dictates that you select the relevant bits that make your point, Dick.

I accept your upgrade, Michael. :-)

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 09:11 AM

Sory Steve, but Ihave been crrticised on here before for doing just that, anyway my apologies, hopefully somebody might be interested in the whole lot.
here is another veification of the importance of song,
Preceding the pipes, the origin of Irish music can be found in the sean-nós singing tradition. It is a highly ornamented, complex style featuring elastic rhythms and continuous variation of a basic melody. Sean-nós singing is almost always a solo art. The exception is found in Donegal where occasionally singing in unison or octaves can be heard. Because of the improvisational nature of the continuous melodic variation, such a feat would seem almost to require mental telepathy, and in fact it is only very close relatives who attempt it.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 09:16 AM

You can read the same text that Dick copied here:

http://www.standingstones.com/donegalf.html

with more readable formatting. As Steve says, only one sentence of it should have been copied to make the point.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 10:06 AM

Steve Shaw
And it [tunes from tune books ] taught me precisely zilch about active listening as I learned, the need for flexibility, the subtleties of rhythm and how to vary and ornament tunes. So I have every idea, you see.

No, it shows that you have absolutely no idea. Music notation, at least in folk music, doesn't set out to do any of those things any more than the text of Shakespeare teaches you to act.

A 6/8 time signature at the front of a jig, for example, conveys a mechanical notion of something that is as un-mechanical and fluid as can be.

No. It tells you it's in 6/8. If to you that means mechanical, then that is how you will play it; if you think it means fluid then play it that way. That is up to the musician.

A 4/4 time signature in front of a reel gives no hint as to the potential for playing the tune with a bit of lilt.

Of course it doesn't. That comes from your experience of how reels sound.

Anyone who even thinks they can notate a slow air is nothing less than a scoundrel.

Anyone who thinks that you should slavishly follow the notation of a slow air is never going to amount to much as a musician.

I honestly can't understand why anyone would want to deliberately put such obstacles in their way when they could learn tunes by hearing them played.

The notation puts no such obstacles in your way, they're all of your own making. You seem to have chosen to be straightjacketed by the dots. You seem to have decided that if you learn from notation you have to stop listening. No wonder you didn't get much from it. By rejecting tune books, you have cut yourself off from a vast treasury of music. Do yo regard O'Neill's as the work of the devil? Your loss.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 10:07 AM

And the point was, of course:

"can indicate where a slow roll "would" normally be played. But not "should" of course"

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:39 PM

Steve, what you are avoiding is that I am not talking ONLY about songs.

I am talking about ALL music.

You're dodging the issue.

And no, I haven't heard you play, but judging from what you have said—and your own rigid position on the matter, I think I have a pretty good idea. I have run into this kind of argument before and am quite familiar with it—and with those who continually make it.

And Michael, I DID say that one needs to spend time with the music and learn from it. IF there is information available, such as notes on what the composer was thinking at the time he wrote the piece—or any other information that might be relevant, you of course consider that as well.

I agree emphatically with the Snail, just above.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:54 PM

'The exception is found in Donegal where occasionally singing in unison or octaves can be heard.'

Not true, I've heard the same in Connemara and West Kerry.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 01:07 PM

[Don on Steve]

I haven't heard you play, but judging from what you have said — and your own rigid position on the matter, I think I have a pretty good idea.

I don't think you do. There are samples of Steve's playing on Soundcloud or similar. They're pretty darn good - sensitive and idiomatic.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 01:17 PM

Don, Bit of confusion: You say, "one needs to spend time with the music and learn from it" Are you meaning "the music" as in the sheet music, or the music as in the noise when it hits your ears?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 01:28 PM

... and I agree with everything thesnail says too (and I suspect Steve does). With the caveat however, that while the notation itself does not put up an obstacle and that such an obstacle is of the musician's own making, There are a heck of a lot of people playing music from notation who have no idea that they have put up the obstacles.

It's like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument. Of course it's true. But if there's a heck of a lot of guns about and they are as easy to get hold of as a bag of rice, then a heck of a lot more people are gonna get killed.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 01:43 PM

half full half empty syndrome, there are also a heck of lot of people who do understand about playing music from notation, and do understand about listening to others whilst using it and do understand about musical interpretation whilst playing from music.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 02:51 PM

"Are you meaning 'the music' as in the sheet music, or the music as in the noise when it hits your ears?"

Both. One needs to listen to what comes out of the guitar or whatever other instrument one is playing as one "plays the dots." Thus also assumes that one is playing the piece for the first time in practice, not in front of an audience.

Study the written music. There are not just the time signature and "the dots," but other indications as well. Usually just above the time signature there will be an indication such as "Allegro" (fast), "Lento" (slow), or any of a whole bunch of indications as to the general pace of a piece. Also, you may see such things as a curved line over a whole string of notes. This indicates that those notes should be play as a "phrase." Other indications include such things as f ("forte"—emphasize this note) or ff ("fortissimo"--really emphasize this note), p ("piano"—softly), etc.. Or a dot over a note with an "eyebrow" over the dot. This is called a "fermata," and it means that you should hold this note for a second before moving on.

There's a helluva lot more information in most written music than just "the dots." One should get a good music dictionary (small, can fit into a shirt pocket, and not all that expensive) to look up these indications.

But there is a measure of freedom for personal interpretation there. For example, how long should you hold a "fermata?" How fast is "Allegro?" How slow is "Lento?" These are things you have to decide. Your own musical sense has to come into play here. Think about it. Play it several different ways. Then decide which one seems the best (and you may revise this later on).

And LISTEN as you experiment.

And--listen to the way other people play the piece. I think you'll find that everybody has his or her own take on it.

There is plenty of latitude right there on the page.

Anyone who thinks that reading "the dots" turns you into a robot just doesn't get it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 02:53 PM

I used to play by ear, but I caught dire ear,

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 02:55 PM

It's not half and half. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if it were. The unfortunate fact is that it's the vast majority. And that that vast majority carry on in complete ignorance of their ignorance. With some, of course, they are such bad listeners that putting the dots down and only using their ears wouldn't make a jot of difference. (I won't name an example, 'cause I'd only get "moderated"). But quite a few, I believe, would benefit a great deal from it.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 03:00 PM

I agree, reading "the dots" does not turn you into a robot. However, if you play music like a robot in the first place, playing from the dots will do nothing to cure you from it. The only cure is to leave the dots alone, not for ever, just until the cure takes effect.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 03:14 PM

Study the written music. There are not just the time signature and "the dots," but other indications as well. Usually just above the time signature there will be an indication such as "Allegro" (fast), "Lento" (slow), or any of a whole bunch of indications as to the general pace of a piece. Also, you may see such things as a curved line over a whole string of notes. This indicates that those notes should be play as a "phrase." Other indications include such things as f ("forte"—emphasize this note) or ff ("fortissimo"--really emphasize this note), p ("piano"—softly), etc.. Or a dot over a note with an "eyebrow" over the dot. This is called a "fermata," and it means that you should hold this note for a second before moving on.

There's a helluva lot more information in most written music than just "the dots." One should get a good music dictionary (small, can fit into a shirt pocket, and not all that expensive) to look up these indications.

Heheh. Well, in order to respond to this I have to admit that I have looked in several Irish tune books in my time. Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong ones, Don, but I have yet to see an Irish tune book with markings such as lento, allegro, f, ff, p, or with phrase markings or fermata (well, maybe the odd one of those). And if I did find such a tome it would do nothing except convince me that this here is a version. What you do with this version is prescribed. I have worked it out. I am authoritative. This is what you do with this tune. Stray ye not.

Anyway, thanks for the music lesson, Don. I didn't need it because I know all that stuff already. I find it useful when I'm following classical music scores, which I do.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 03:25 PM

... and I agree with everything thesnail says too (and I suspect Steve does).
Well yes, except for the "Steve-says-something-therefore-my-role-is-to play-the-contrarian" attitude (the gastropod and I have history, Michael :-) ) He does give things away a couple of times in his post when he says it's up to the musician in jigs (you do have to be a bit of a musician before that applies) and that you have to use your experience in reels. Exactly. Which is why dots are bad for inexperienced players.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 03:27 PM

Damn. Only that first line was meant to be in italics.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 03:38 PM

Steve, learning a tune from the dots is only the beginning.

THEN the real work begins.

If you can't work it out from there, then I don't know what to tell you. Like I keep saying, it's a matter of musicianship.

But telling people that they shouldn't try to learn music from "the dots" is doing them a disservice. People can. At least, some people can.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 03:44 PM

And no, I haven't heard you play, but judging from what you have said—and your own rigid position on the matter, I think I have a pretty good idea.
I wouldn't dream of criticising your playing without hearing it, Don, for the simple reason that so many people on these websites love to misrepresent themselves. I won't name an example, 'cause I'd only get "moderated". I think you should adopt the same attitude. Whatever people say that gets your back up, the proof of the pudding is...

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 03:45 PM

Damn! I've done it again. Only that first line was meant to be in italics. Sod it.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 03:51 PM

I can work it out from there (I never do, mind - don't wanna) because I've learned a lot of tunes by ear and I understand that I have to be flexible and that there is no such thing as "the version." Telling beginners who happen to be able to read music that they can fast-track themselves into playing this music well is doing them more than a disservice. It is dooming them to never playing it well. Seen it, got the bloody tee shirt.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 04:55 PM

So Irish session music is so much more complex than, say, flamenco?

One cannot learn to play flamenco from written music, certainly not without some understanding ahead of time as to what's going on.

But once a person does know, it IS possible to learn new pieces from written music.

Been there, done that.

I'm no Manitas de Plata or Sabicas, but I can do it and have done it.

Don Firth

P. S. Fuller explanation on demand.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:02 PM

But once a person does know, it IS possible to learn new pieces from written music

You see? Both you and Snail always have to qualify your claims that sheet music is OK by saying that you "need to know" first. Thanks for making my point, both of you.

And I'm only saying for traditional Irish music. That's what I happen to know something about. Not songs either. I suspect it's exactly the same for other styles of traditional folk music though I wouldn't ask to be quoted on it.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:42 PM

So Irish session music is so much more complex than, say, flamenco?
How would I know? How would you know? What do you mean by "complex?" More virtuosic? Requiring more playing skills? Harder to learn? More notes, faster notes? Flamenco players find it hard because they're disracted by low-cut tops and big tits (and that's just the blokes...)?

Your question is just bollocks. Diddley music is simple. It is mostly diatonic and the tunes are mostly in regular-sized bits. Virtuosity actually works against good playing if you're not careful. If you think that it's "less complex" than flamenco, well good for you. Playing it right does, however, appear to be somewhat elusive. I wonder why that is. It can't be because it is "not complex". Do you think it could be that a large majority of its practitioners are unable to learn by ear or listen interactively when playing in sessions? Or, worse, have decided they can fast-track themselves into the music with tune books?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:44 PM

Fer chrissake, three in a row. Only that first line should have been in italics. I appear to have a disease. Something to do with leaning forward too much.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:43 PM

Steve, you're coming on like one of the "folk police." It has to be played YOUR way or it's not right, and your way doesn't include being able to read music.

Well, I've found there's no point in trying to argue with or persuade someone with that kind of mind set.

Sorry if I rained on your parade. You do it your way. I'll do it mine.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:58 PM

Wassup, Don? I've told you umpteen times that I can read music. Is this the way you have conversations with the people you meet face-to-face? You ignore what they say and construct an image of what you think they should say for you to knock down? Have you thought of having an alternative career in comedy?

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 10:31 PM

Snotty, Steve!

I am aware that you can read music. What I object to is your advising others--beginners--that they should NOT.

Don't dodge the issue with insults.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 11:57 PM

I don't completely agree with Steve's basic point, but I do understand, and have sympathy with the honest frustration that he expressed when he said:

"Do you think it could be that a large majority of its practitioners are unable to learn by ear or listen interactively when playing in sessions? Or, worse, have decided they can fast-track themselves into the music with tune books?"

So yes, over the years, I've run into a fair number of people who play, but don't practice, who never bothered to sit down with someone(either formally or informally) to learn how to keep the beat and get the tune to 'sound right", and who figure that they can play anything at all because they've got "The Real Book" or "1001 Irish Fiddle Tunes" or the Boxed set of "The Complete Chess Masters, and a spontaneous gift for music.

And old band mate of mine used to say, "I wish there were a million more of them, cause they make us sound really good."

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 12:33 AM

And, Stim, there are four-year college music students who can both play by ear AND play from sheet music note for perfect note. But--they don't make it into any orchestra because they lack the musicality to both read what's on their music stand and follow the conductor at the same time.

Innate musicality. Or in another word--talent.

This lack of talent certainly does not mean the don't want to be in a music group.

But likewise, being able to recite "To be or not to be" in absolutely perfect iambic pentameter doesn't, by itself, qualify one to ba a Shakespearean actor.

The fact that they can read notes--or words on a page--perfectly is NOT the problem.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 01:24 AM

I think there is more to it than mere talent--some students never really flourish because no one has helped them to discover how to express themselves through the music-this, more than anything, is what mentors are for.

There are altogether too many bored music teachers--frustrated performers who took on students as a consolation prize, they can teach students to play the notes, but they don't teach them how to make it come alive.

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 01:45 AM

All too true.

Fortunately, most of the music teachers I've had were excellent musicians and inspiring mentors.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: learning to play by ear?
From: GUEST,Michael Gill
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:53 AM

Don, specifically, my advice to people new to any particular kind of music who already have knowledge of another and can read music is that they should do their best to familiarise themselves with this new music before learning anything of it from notation. And the only way to familiarise themselves is aurally. Listen to lots and lots of it and then begin to play it from only listening,

And here's why.

Music notation is visual symbols that represent sounds. And for it to be an effective means of communicating sound, you first have to be familiar with what sound each symbol represents. So, for example, someone familiar with Beethoven's style can take a piece of his manuscript written in common time and reproduce the music which, with skill and judgement, would hopefully be recognised by Beethoven himself as an accurate rendition . Or if not Beethoven himself, at least the general population of Beethoven admirers around today. (not with standing the performers own input, of course).

However. common time, as written by Beethoven means something very very different to a player of Irish reels. And yet the two are written identically.

And if you play a reel in the rhythm of Beethoven's common time it will be wrong. Not just different, or the players interpretation, or an example of the performers own input, but just wrong. Plain and simply.

And this applies to lots of the symbols. Another example is the one I looked at earlier where half a bar of 6/8 of three notes the same can mean a slow roll to an Irish player (not with standing the silly and irrelevant aside of a minority who don't play rolls of course). But if the player did that during a piece of Beethoven in 6/8 they'd be wrong, not just different, or the players interpretation, or an example of the performers own input, but just wrong. Plain and simply.



And it's important to note that this is not just theory. I'm not saying this could happen, or there is a danger of it happening. I'm saying that it happens a lot. A heck of a lot. All the bloody time. If you are not familiar with how reels go and you are familiar with common time in the Classical and Romantic sense and you read a reel off notation you "will" play it wrong. All wrong. As in "Sheesh, oh no no no no no ... that was bloody awful ... you've got it all wrong."