BS: Austerity does not work UK

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Musket
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 11:21 AM

Funnily enough Shimrod, The Daily M*il readership is not as Tory as some think. By demographics, it has a large "working class" following including many floating voters. Presumably those who feel The Daily Mirror and The Sun are too common for them.

It is easier to see the social progression perceived by Daily M*il readers by looking at why people build conservatories....

Just an observation about the thread in general; most of the "fat cats" of course do not want austerity as such, just a safe UK banking sector and for that they need A++ credit for our economy. Austerity hits their profits, so it is a bit more of a balancing act than many give credit for. However, before retiring and selling up my own business interests, I was convinced you cannot cut back and reduce your way to profitability. I still firmly believe that, and as such agree with the idea that austerity does not work. Where I differ from some is in saying that kick-starting the economy with money the treasury hasn't got only puts the day of reckoning back, doesn't get rid of the underlying issue....

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 10:09 AM

Of course austerity is working! It's keeping Tory Daily Mail readers happy by punishing the poor! I'm sure it works for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 03:46 AM

"What amazes me, in the U.S., is how Obama ran on an austerity platform his first time around."

It should amaze you. It never happened.


" Obama, was the first president to put entitlements on the table in fiscal negotiations. He has begun the carving up of Social Security and Medicaire."

He is the third or fourth who wanted to trim the programs. W want to to it to "save" the programs.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Songwronger
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 11:23 PM

Austerity is the tool being used for the great levelling of the western world. Plenty of money to fund wars, finance military R&D, bail out banks with taxpayer money, but no cash for social services. It's all a lie. One big robbery.

What amazes me, in the U.S., is how Obama ran on an austerity platform his first time around, yet people thought he would give them more. It's really as if his followers confused the word "austerity" with "prosperity." The government-run media is still comparing him to FDR and LBJ, the architects of our social safety net, while he, Obama, was the first president to put entitlements on the table in fiscal negotiations. He has begun the carving up of Social Security and Medicaire.

Austerity is just a way the rich get richer. Obama's just a banker's boy. He's taking a 4 million dollar vacation right now, too. His contribution to the austerity movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 05:38 PM

Readwulf is correct, nothing works in a capitalist society in decline.

The only way is down and the US will follow shortly. The reason that we lead the fall, is that our society is more benefit ridden and entitlement smothered than the US.
Our "liberal progressives" have created a society which can no longer afford to employ,or educate our youth, look after our senior citizens, or compete in the global marketplace.
We have priced ourselves out of existance, we are lazy, obese and dumb, we dont even want to think for ourselves any more

Capitalism has that effect on the populace eventually, but I dont suppose anyone here has the balls to jump off.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 03:07 PM

Yes, that's because ot the Germans the Euro is cheap, but to Greece, Spain, and Italy it's expensive. we could grow our sales outwith the EEC if we were able to subsidise costs, which we cant do now. Even the existing internal market sales, won't all disappear. Especially of we pitch the price right.
We really need to stop looking after others, playing the philanthropist, and start looking after ourselves If we had sole control over our own territorial waters, including the fishing, we'd be a lot better off; and we'd have a resource that the rest of Europe is very short of. UK has the largest percentage of fish stocks of any other EEC country. The Spaniards will always want fish. (Among other countries)

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 02:46 PM

Thing is John; we carry out the majority of our trade within The EU.

The level playing field for the common market does mean you cannot always be the winner because for every winner there has to be a loser.

If that wasn't a safeguard we wouldn't be a winner anyway. Germany would. I am still a non executive director of a German manufacturer that I used to be a supplier to. The outlook from Frankfurt is very different to that of London. Both in business and politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 09:15 AM

Thing is Richard we are prevented by the EEC from doing so many things that might help us back onto our feet. We cannot subsidise industry, we cannot give preference to UK companies when awarding contracts.
We cannot limit the influx of EEC citizens, who (it would appear} are willing to work for low wages. As long as ANYBODY is prepared to work for low wages, the employers will NEVER increase wages, 'cos they don't have to. We are also limited as to how much we can increase or decrease VAT, and we certainly can't remove it totally from chosen items. (AFAIK)
Austerity isn't government imposed, it's a fact of life at the moment. If cutting one's coat according to the cloth available is austerity, then that's where we're at.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 09:07 AM

(a) tax and spend gives stimulus and an excess of tax over spend reduces deficit (if that is necessary). So raise taxes.
(b) international banking finance and commerce are hard to control because of the international element and markets. First step re-introduce exchange control. Then the bastards cannot expatriate income or capital.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: sciencegeek
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 08:47 AM

can you define public infrastructure?

If you mean putting more political appointees on the payroll, I can see where that is a failed stimulus.

Here is New York we have a number of state parks with infrastructure built by the CCC... civilian conservation corps.... that are now in need of repair...

that's what I call public infrastructure and I think we got plenty of return on that investment.   And putting in money to get another 80 years of public benefit in addition to putting folks to work... how is that a failure?

To bring this a little more relevant to folk music... it was New Deal money that financed John & Alan Lomax during their recording efforts in the later 1930's. Another good investment in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 06:31 AM

As ever, politicians are judged by dogma rather than reality.

Osborne can't win. Mind you I have no sympathy because being a politician himself he blames previous politicians for any given situation.

That is small minded thinking. The multinational system that holds the key to success or otherwise doesn't give a shit about any country and economy unless it is in their interest. Countries have to attract their investments to survive and on their terms.

Note that Amazon and Google were welcomed with open arms....

Austerity doesn't work and can't. However, if the stimulus is public infrastructure then problems are being delayed rather than dealt with. Not a wrong strategy by any means but a risky one.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 12:05 AM

Good article, Jack. (the one in the first post)(haven't yet read the 2nd one you posted)

Henry, you said: "One way to increase your wealth is to decrease other people's."

That's exactly what Jesse James always said! I can't fault the logic. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 10:42 PM

http://www.npr.org/2012/12/08/166801322/not-just-patriotic-u-s-manufacturing-may-be-smart?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 08:06 PM

In the USA, Go back to Clinton era tax rates, simplify the tax code and encourage the purchase of more US made goods.

Yes, we would all have to sacrifice and show more patriotism. That is the one thing we have not been asked to do.

In the UK? I don't know, your banking system is too big and powerful for the size of the country. You would have to muzzle them before you could get anything done.

Your country certainly cut too much. But if you hadn't, the stimulus spending would have had to be on things that stayed in the country. Do EU agreements even make that possible? You may have to convince Germany to lose some control and endure some inflation. Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Raedwulf
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 06:24 PM

And, Jack, your solution is what exactly? I'm not defending George. Personally, I am not an economist & I have little idea of what might / not work (although I'm pretty sure that Labour's desire to spend money we haven't got is probably a bad idea). However it's very easy to carp & criticise. What would you do instead? I read the first couple of para's of your link & what I read was "A politician promised..." Sorry? And everyone believed him? A politician's promise constitutes a basis for declaring success or failure? Since when? It's hardly empirical evidence is it?

As far as I can tell, George's efforts at austerity will not work in the time frame that he promised. That's all. That doesn't mean that his methods won't work eventually (!), or that there is anything wrong with the principle of austerity. Maybe there is; I dunno. I do know that your article proves fuck all, except the bias of its (Americna) author, and that no-one seems to be coming up with a better idea. I do know that, currencies no longer being backed by anything concrete e.g. gold, we're printing an awful lot of fiat money in the hope of rescuing things, and that's worrying an awful lot of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 05:12 PM

Yes. The rich use it to create a malleable workforce.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 05:02 PM

austerity doesn't work to fix an economic downturn... you use it when the economy is working well and that's how Clinton left a surplus at the end of his administration.

We are still trying to get out of the mess left from 8 years of Bush's administration. So austerity is out, stimulus is what's needed. Plus more revenue coming in to keep things moving.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 04:49 PM

One way to increase your wealth is to decrease other people's.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 03:56 PM

Austerity doesn't work anywhere in the world, particularly when there is a down turn in the economy. It's a device used by the wealthy to command more money and power.

Austerity in the U.S. could trigger another more serious Depression.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM

"Unemployment isn't working!
Robyn "

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM

To be fair to the UK, the smaller and less isolated the economy, the less benefit from stimulus. You have to be very careful with deficit spending or much of it will stimulate other economies.   Ontario, a province in Canada, tried to boost its economy when I lived there. A big percentage of the money ended up going to Outlet Malls in New York State.

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Little Robyn
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM

Unemployment isn't working!
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 02:30 PM

Jack. Thanks for pointing that one out. Of course austerity doesn't work. The more spending power they suck out of the economy the farther down the chute we go to all out economic depression.

Could be of course that Osborne is in the pay of the reds but I doubt it. I've certainly never seen him at any party meetings.

Subject: BS: Austerity does not work UK
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM

It failed in the UK it would fail in the USA