BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:57 PM

Now is the time to take the 'battle' back to the NRA. Now is the time to have Representatives in the House who oppose gun control stand and be recognized for the last time because they will not be reelected. Now is the time to take away the NRA's power as lobbyists and as an organization with political clout. After today, they have NO credibility anymore IF you kick them and keep kicking them. Street fighting 101.

America thought President Obama would not win because some big money took out advertisements saying he wouldn't win. America proved itself wrong--or more precisely, proved that money can't buy the whole country. Do NOT let up on this. Your president has said he's willing to lead. For krissake, support him. If you belong to the NRA, withdraw your membership. Tell them--TELL THEM--no more bullshit, no more lies. Stop the American love affair with YouTube crap that glorifies some idiot in camouflage gear and a scope-mounted rifle. TELL your kids that "No, you cannot have the latest video game that teaches you twelve ways to shoot some poor bastard. And if I find it on your computer, you won't HAVE a computer!" Start taking back your country. Start with your kids and your Congress, and don't take NO for an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:46 PM

"More "NUTBALL control?" Now we're getting somewhere...maybe"
Nutball control is sadly lacking in Canada and this debate is ongoing here while the USA reflects on its great loss today! I am all for gun control but this is what a nutball with a knife can do:
Nutball

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:41 PM

If you look at the link I posted, the number of registered guns in the USA has dropped significantly in recent years. There is some other very significant information there regarding states with gun laws vs those without. Look at where the guns are more prevalent, at where the laws are more restrictive at where the worst events have occurred. There is no significant correlation.

It is, imo, contemptibly stupid to believe that gun restrictions will make a difference. It is a waste of time, money and energy. Those who want them will find them, regardless. It is as feckless as restricting illegal drugs. Zero-tolerance did not solve the problem; neither will gun laws.

There are guns in Canada; we could conceivably have these types of events; did have the one in Quebec some years ago. But basic attitudes are totally different. There are highly significant historic/sociological differences. The USA has some serious work to do on changing the way it looks at the world and at lives of humans, and all animals. It does not seem to place as high a value on life as some of the more civilized countries. If it did, it would not be killing people in other countries, thereby setting a horrendous example for its young people. It is a militant-minded country that extolls the use of violence in TV, everywhere, and this attitude invades every aspect of life. Just look at "Stand your ground". It is legal to kill people.

Boy, am I ever fed up with that stinking attitude.

That young man was also a young child once. How 'bout looking at what went wrong in his life, or never went right, that brought him to the point of killing his mother and going on a killing rampage. That is where the answers are, where the time, money and energy could be well spent. How do we help each individual grow into the kind of person who nurtures, rather than kills? Hard to do in a country that extolls violence - but most people manage it.

Interesting that no one has mentioned Nickel Mines?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:36 PM

Dan... (and Krinkle)- raising kids with 'morals' and "spirituality or compassion for others" is a goal, not a simple formula! The dangerous ones have merely changed- or added to- what they GET upset over! When do you remember us having that society you wish to return to?

No society in history has been without the crazy, uncontrolled, testosterone fueled, angry, anxious...etc... young men! Where do you suppose Ghengis Khan got his willing soldiers? He merely put them into situations where their instincts were directed like he wanted!

Now the world is more populated & crowded.... so, the total number of unbalanced ones in a society are ALWAYS increasing, and it takes only a few to increase the number of horrific headlines!
If we had the BEST morals and teachers and family principles imaginable, we would still have those who fall thru the cracks and do horrible things! We tell kids not to play with matches when they are 2... and usually keep matches out of reach, but keep firearms in the house where kids know about them.... and even if WE don't, someone they know usually has guns!

We spend more effort keeping our people safe from contaminated peanut butter than from guns!

You will NOT improve the 'moral climate' of families and cure kids of the stresses that make them want to hit & hurt others by repeating that slogan! We try to make toys safer, so kids don't swallow little parts or cut themselves, but as soon as they reach 18 or so and haven't done anything 'seriously' illegal, we let them have guns?

You will notice, I have not demanded we "take away everyone's guns". Even I know how hard that would be... but some folks will simply not entertain the IDEA of meaningfully controlling access to handguns, semi-auto or automatic rifles and ammo!

We will have more stories like this

Wanta read about one *I* knew about?

Remembering 8-11 (in Wichita)

My ex-wife was in that building when that 19 year old kid took a rifle and shot people on the street! One of his victims was a photographer for the newspaper who was shot dead in his car AS he responded to radio news about the shootings. It 'may' have gotten some national attention at the time, but that was before cable news and internet... but it was quieter, more 'moral' time.

who..me? cynical? naawwwww

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:12 PM

"In WWII the gas chamber people were not insane, just evil."

True, Dan, but what they did was legal because they passed the laws to make it legal. And therein is the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:07 PM

The Second Most Powerful Gun Lobby in the Country is Located in Newtown, Conn.
Jordan Sargent        

Today's massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn. happened in the shadow of the headquarters of one of the biggest gun lobbies in the country: the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which is just three miles away from the school. The NSSF pales in both stature and power to the NRA, but they still actively work to ease laws and regulations for gun owners and supporters.

Lydia DePillis of The New Republic reports that the NSSF has spent over $500,000 in 2012 on pro-gun lobbying (compared to the NRA's $2.2 million), most of which went to a D.C. lobbyist.

    The lion's share of that went to Patrick Rothwell, the group's director of government relations, who served for three years as chief of staff to the House Republican Policy Committee. He spent a lot of time this year working on legislation that would prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from regulating chemicals in gun ammunition and fishing equipment, and the organization has backed a slew of concealed-carry bills.

DePillis also reports that the NSSF spent $26,000 this campaign season and is frequently consulted by reporters writing facile "he said, she said" stories to give a pro-gun point of view. The foundation takes in $26 million per year and its CEO makes over $300,000 per year.

The NSSF's location in Newtown is an incidental coincidence, of course, but an unfortunate one nonetheless in light of today's events.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 10:01 PM

I spent so many hours trying to figure this out, there is no solution. I can only now say that I will do my best to make sure that when i am around anyway, I have the ability to make some sort of difference to protect others. Crazy that I even have to think like that but I do now.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:58 PM

You can make your own gun. Or even a cannon. And your own gunpowder.
I think capitalism is a big part of the problem. Kids spend so much time in daycare ,online and watching trash on tv.
Nobody raises them.
=(:-( I)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:53 PM

I suspect my friends that what we are calling insane is more simply evil. In WWII the gas chamber people were not insane, just evil. I really think it is more of the I am a loser so hence I will make them all pay for the fact that I am a loser. I will be famous forever ... go out in a blaze of infamy. As long as those types of people are around, we can't stop it.

The availability of weapons, any weapons makes it impossible to police. My friends in other countries can't understand but we who live here can't either. The US is huge, we have cattle farms out west bigger than many European countries. The police cannot be everywhere, we have lots more people and sadly lots more violence.

It is the breakdown of the family unit I think. The lack of morals, the lack of spirituality or compassion for others. We have become a self nation. Look after ourselves, not others. He who dies with the most toys wins type of thing. Do anything for fame, or fortune. Heck look at the loser celebs that make sex tapes and release them and instead of outrage, they get stardom. You see like Rome when the moral compass is broken, then the unthinkable becomes standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 09:44 PM

"More "NUTBALL control?" Now we're getting somewhere...maybe"

Here's a reality check for you...

Right now, control over them is after the fact. Anyone can purchase a gun in many states UNTIL they are shown to be felons or "nutballs".... and if they go to a gun show or the internet, even their "nuttiness" is not questioned! Not only that, but there are SO many guns about that almost any "nutball" can buy one ILLEGALLY or steal one! This boy got guns registered to his mother... then shot HER! Don't you suppose he'd know she had them?

Yes...I KNOW the US has the biggest problem! That's why I look for new ideas, not old statistics!

Now, Bob R... how you YOU propose we 'control' nutballs? Do you wish to lockup every vaguely disturbed or depressed teen! Many kids seem at odds & not well adjusted, then grow out of it!

Remember... they are free & innocent UNTIL they do something that makes headlines.

___________________________

Look at it reasonably.... 1)we are NOT short of nutballs, and in this stressful society, they are a growing problem. 2)Maybe 1/10 of 1% of us needs ANY guns in daily life, and most of those are police and those in wilderness areas who genuinely need them for protection and/or for hunting food.3)The police desperately wish that guns were not so easily available...partly because they- the police- are running scared and tend to shoot innocent people in certain situations!

Do NOT give me the line about killing people with large rocks! Or knives.. (READ my opening post!) This kid could not have done that amount of mayhem with a rock or knife.

THINK... don't repeat tired slogans and statistics!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:58 PM

Reality check Bill D. It's more like this...http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/28/us-world-firearms-idUSL2834893820070828

And that info. is nearly 6 years old.

When the SEALS got Bin Laden, there was a full page ad in the newspaper advertising the gun company that made the weapon. A "quality product..."

Agree with Dorothy. And as a former teacher, I sure would like to see more than just the ABC's in schoolrooms. A closer monitoring of the student and what's in his mind might be useful...

When I was 14(guess), I had a friend named John that had a Nazi memorabilia collection. Not your shoebox collector. His GARAGE had the flag, the medals, books, a mini museum. A site even I could not believe at 14, His father had been killed by the Nazis. He knew the salutes, history, accents, and made me wonder what this kid does for fun...And what movie was playing in his head...

Then there was the story of a serial killer in India being hunted by the Police. He had killed a LOT of people. They could not get a photo. But somebody did a drawing of him, holding a large rock over his head. His weapon of choice. After crushing their skulls, he would then take their belongings.

The solution? Less guns? Are you kidding me? MORE "gun control?"...Don't think so...More "NUTBALL control?" Now we're getting somewhere...maybe

Tragically, it WILL happen again...in whatever form.

Peace...That which you concentrate on expands, and don't ask why a god wasn't there... look inside, and be the change you would like to see in others...BR

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM

True, Dorothy, but high schoolers don't get Glocks, Sig Sauers or AR-15s at the corner store in small-town Canada. They are sophisticated weapons requiring lots of paper work. Procurement of said weapons in the US appears to be much easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:48 PM

Every man in Switzerland has a gun for national defense, yet the murder rate is very low. Why?

Because you're lying.

I already replied to that claim a couple of hours ago when you posted it in another thread.

Switzerland's murder rate is substantially higher than that of Austria, the country to which it is most similar in every other respect except gun ownership.

It also has a very high incidence of suicide by gun (though despite frequent claims to the contrary, its overall suicide rate is not all that high, less than double the UK rate and not much higher than the US).

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:35 PM

200,000 Americans will be shot this year...

Me??? I learned "gun safety" and how to shoot a gun from the NRA... I was in an NRA shoot club... Had the jacket, the patches, the medals...

That was a long time ago... 95% of gun owners today wouldn't get along with the NRA people I knew way back then, and vice versa...

NRA used to be about gun safety... Now its about pushing as many guns into as many hands as they can... Safety??? What's that???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:30 PM

9... "That implies the .223 was converted to full automatic which is doable with a kit and the know-how."

Nope. No "kit" required. A simple file on the bent and Bob's yer assassin. I can show you how to do it in less than five minutes.

But, such modifications? To do what he did? Not required. Any marksman can kill anthing he wants to kill with any weapon. It's not about the weapon... it's about the the human who pulls the trigger, whatever trigger, whatever weapon.

What IS required is some REALISTIC GUN LAWS damnit! I just weep at the fact that that the gun-nuts oppose the anti-gun nuts and vice versa. Could they all just realize people... CHILDREN!... are dying?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:24 PM

"Every man in Switzerland has a gun for national defense, yet the murder rate is very low. Why?"

Maybe because it's for "National Defense" rather than personal defense. The reason for carrying a concealed weapon I hear most in the US is for personal protection against, I presume, other people carrying concealed weapons. Now if no one carried concealed weapons.....well you get the picture. I'm Canadian and I have never, ever in my sixty three years known or heard of anyone to carry a concealed weapon, yet even here on Mudcat several American members have said they have permits to carry. This is, frankly, beyond my comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:17 PM

Read those statistics, Kendall... Switzerland is NOT that low! And it is not just 300 years old with a frontier mentality!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:16 PM

Guns are just a tool. Like a hammer or saw. Timothy McVeigh did more damage with diesel fuel and fertilizer. If a resourceful person wants a gun they will make one out of steel pipe.
Dorothy is correct. Raising mentally healthy people is the answer.
Anybody can have children. Regardless of how fit.
We are a nation of spoiled brats.
It's all about money and materialism.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:15 PM

We KNOW all those statistics, my friends... we also KNOW that there are 100,000,000 or more weapons- legally and illegally- in this country. We also KNOW that changing "how our children are raised, how people think." is not likely to help with the basic problem very soon.

   You see, those who will **not** willingly give up **any** guns of **any** type now hold the upper hand. They are willing to absorb a few yearly mass shootings in order to protect their 2nd amendment "rights"... even though the Founders would be appalled at how their seemingly reasonable idea has been perverted!

Only a mass, ground roots movement which gradually replaced all the members of Congress who vote the way the NRA donations demand will do any good...

.... unless some gun nut uses Congress as his target. Fat chance!

We need ideas... not repetition of statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 08:11 PM

I'm willing to turn mine in if you think that will help.

\Every man in Switzerland has a gun for national defense, yet the murder rate is very low. Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:55 PM

You could say that guns don't kill people but to be more precise, politics kills people, especially those politicians that support the gun lobby.

Micheal Moore was right in "Bowling for Columbine". There is a connection between
the military weapons manufacturers and the tolerance for gun usage in the U.S.

The U.S. possesses the most weaponry in the world. There is a climate for this
tragedy here not found elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:47 PM

Last year for guns

Last year: Killed by handguns
48 in Japan
8 in Great Britaij
34 in Switzerland
52 in Canada
58 in Israel
21 in Sweden
10,728 in the U.S. (even more than Mexico)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:42 PM

So when do we have an adult conversation about guns???

Oh, that's right...

Never...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:41 PM

guest:murrbob

    The U.S. has seven times the gun-related murders per capita of any other Western nation. Guns ARE the problem, especially when they are automatic and semiautomatic weapons. These were certainly not a part of the Founding Fathers writing of the 2nd Amendment!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:39 PM

A car doesn't kill 28 people. A knife can injure but doesn't kill 28 people.
An automatic weapon can kill even more. The NRA has blood on its hands.


Gun deaths

The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations, a government study found.
    The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000.
    The study, done by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, is the first comprehensive international look at gun-related deaths. It was published Thursday in the International Journal of Epidemiology.

    Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:24 PM

What's more, they are also clueless about what they claim to know--the reasons for the 2nd Amendment.

Fear of a standing army, and consequent need for a "well-regulated militia"

Fear of British or Indian attack


I don't believe we've been terribly concerned about either of these for a while now.



I wonder when all gun-owners will in fact be required to show up for monthly , weekly, or even annual, drill.

Even in the first serious application of the "well-regulated militia" after the Bill of Rights was not exactly a triumph.    The drills turned out often to be drinkfests.

In fact the "well-regulated militia"---or anything but a standing army-- approach to national defence turned out to be a disaster.    They also had the nasty habit of disappearing when their time was up.

I understand that even the 8th of January was won mostly by the regular army.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:17 PM

"how does a 20 year old..." In small town, Ontario, it was common knowledge - even I knew it! - that you could get a gun at the "corner store", where all the high schoolers hung out.

Guns will always be easy to obtain - until we melt them all down - and surely there will still be some around somewhere. What needs to change is how our children are raised, how people think. Such a very few cause such devastation. WHY them? What went wrong in their young lives? What is missing that they need? You can call these "idealistic"; I call it realistic.

It is quite obvious that guns are not the problem:

This is enlightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:27 PM

Seems to me that any decent 'god' would have been IN that school. But that is a different discussion.

The right wingnuts will say what they always say... and solve nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:23 PM

The right wingnuts are starting to lay blame:

Fischer: Lack of prayer in public schools to blame for Conn. shootings

Mike Huckabee Says Sandy Hook Shooting Happened Because We 'Removed God From Our Schools'

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:21 PM

You are correct, Bruce, that given how many guns are available... to 'borrow' or steal, as well as to buy, NOTHING can prevent a similar story tomorrow... or next week, or next year.
In 20 years? Maybe... if.... and there are so many ifs.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:18 PM

Canada's "National Post" reported scores of dead. Two of us on their site took them to task for sensationalizing an already horrific event. I do expect the same crap from LaPierre and the NRA. President Obama has vowed to take 'meaningful action' to prevent this kind of thing, but when guns are so easily available I don't see how he can. How the hell did a 20-year-old get two handguns and an AR-15? If a witness statement was reported correctly, that witness said s/he heard what sounded like a hundred shots fired. That implies the .223 was converted to full automatic which is doable with a kit and the know-how. Gun ownership is one issue, gun control is another. As I understand it, none of those kids were over the age of about 10 years. If that ain't enough to make ya cry, I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 06:17 PM

This comment from the Atlantic:

"Guns don't attack children; psychopaths and sadists do. But guns uniquely allow a psychopath to wreak death and devastation on such a large scale so quickly and easily. America is the only country in which this happens again -- and again and again."

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 05:50 PM

I totally agree, Bill.

Subject: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 05:29 PM

I hesitated starting this, but there needs to be a place to share ideas...and just vent.

I am alternately saddened, angered, frustrated, confused and coldly analytical about all this.

There are facts, data, ideas, opinions enough to fill 27 threads... but here are my first thoughts.
When I first saw the news, I went to the CNN website to look for details. Over at one side were these two headlines, one directly above the other:

"Gunmen kills 20 children, 6 adults at Connecticut elementary school
Fox News - 12 minutes ago

Man with knife injures 22 kids at school in China
USA TODAY - 7 minutes ago"

Note the two different verbs.

I also heard that one 'statistic' is that 63% of similar attackers got the weapon(s) from their home or relatives homes.

I also note that the mall shootings in Portland Oregon a couple days ago where 'only' 3 innocent victims were shot were not even mentioned here.

I also know that there is no shortage in this country of either guns OR disturbed individuals. This is in a world with more & more stresses and instant information about shootings. Thus, I wonder how many tragedies have been... or will be... 'inspired' by OTHER tragedies. I cannot believe that this perpetrator had not read & seen the news of earlier situations.

I also am sure that the NRA and those who support it will continue to issue bland statements about how we need to find and deal with dangerous, disturbed people.
I submit that many of the dangerous, disturbed people will not be hard to find.... the only question is how many they will kill as they reveal themselves.

It is also a good thing that I don't know how to find Wayne LaPierre...