[Formerly BS:] Musical snobbery

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:44 PM

Er, I seem to recall that we DID look at that study here a year or two back, and that I was one of the very few (perhaps the only?) contributor to that thread who actually bothered to go and look at where the source material for the "million song database" had come from and how it was put together. I'll see if I can dig it out when I have the time but my memory of the thread is that the way they'd selected songs for inclusion in the database left a lot to be desired....the way they'd structured it was such that it was skewed...so if your sample's skewed, the results are likely to be too.

And I AM an old fart myself....just not one who's mind is still mired in "good ol' days", trying to be *objective* and filtering out the fact that my first instinct is just to recall the good stuff from "back then" while having edited out of my memory the sea of dross it floated in. And realising that today is very little different....some decent stuff plus a lot of manufactured clone-sound.

When I go back and look at the charts of the late 50s and early 60s, I just can't agree with either you or the "study"...the more popular stuff back then, with a very few notable exceptions, was generally very simple, 3 or 4 quite basic chords put together in very predictable ways. Contrast with even fairly simple more modern songs like Cooper Temple Clause's "Who Needs Enemies?" (10 chords, including several flattened "sus2"s and "13"s) and Arcade Fire's "Intervention" which lulls you with its initial Am, F, C and G, then throws in Em and E before adding Bs Ds and Bms towards the end....a very very simple song but the little shifts make it more interesting to listen to as it builds...much more than I can say for the basic repetitive nature of most stuff from the 50s and early 60s:
Intervention Live

I agree entirely about the over-compression. In fact, the trend among the newer generation of sound engineers (and I know half a dozen of them) has been to fight against this over the last 5-6 years....and at last they show signs of being listened to!

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:46 AM

Please don't attribute that quote to me. I clearly marked it as someone else's quote (J. Bryan Lowder) that came from a European study of musical progress over a the period of 1955 to 2010. Instead of cherrypicking, it examined 464,411 songs. The study is nicknamed "The Million Song Dataset."

They found that songs have become both louder and more homogenized. The study found, among other things that "the diversity of transitions between note combinations - roughly speaking chords plus melodies - has consistently diminished in the last 50 years."

And it has gotten louder due to over compression, a trick by recording engineers because the louder it is, the newer it sounds. I have CDs that are so over compressed, you have to remember to turn down the speakers or they'll blow you right out of your chair despite the fact that every other CD was of normal volume at that setting. This has become a real problem in the age of digitizing music.

Lowder, editorial assistant for culture at Slate magazine, was simply commenting on the study with his own example or he pulled the example from the study for his own use. That you can find an example that goes against their findings is not surprising since they weren't saying it's true in every single case. They're saying it's a trend and that it is pretty much undeniable when you examine it closely enough and I fully agree. The old farts win. You can google the study on your own.

If you don't like their findings, please take it up with them. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:48 AM

Geust DDT: … past decades saw more inventive ways of linking their harmonies together than we hear now. It's the difference between Carly Rae Jepsen's "Call Me Maybe" (2012), which contains four simple chords presented one after another almost as blocks, and Alex North's "Unchained Melody" (1955), which, though also relatively harmonically simple (it employs about six or seven chords, depending on the version), transitions smoothly from chord to chord due to more subtle orchestration

That's cherry-picking one way. I could cherry-pick the other way and say that something like "King of The Road" contains only C, F, G7 in very simple progressions whereas Oasis' "Wonderwall" uses C, D, Em, Em7, Dsus4, A7sus4,G, Cadd9, G5, G5/F#/E and Em7/B with much more complex structure.

In general, my memories of late 50s/early 60s pop are that, with a few notable exceptions, it used 3 or 4 chords in very simple progressions.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 09:03 AM

I don't condemn anyone who listens to rap. I don't like it myself but it's not up to me to decide what people should like. Would it bother me if rap died tomorrow? Only in the sense that I'd have to wait another 24 hours but someday it will die and be replaced with something else. Something better? I wouldn't count on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 02:44 AM

Eminem has done some decent stuff as have a lot of modern artists,I don't buy it myself but my daughter changed my view on rap.Despite the content and language most these days deliver a positive message.A recent phenomena she pointed out to me was how many of them start out really negative then the better their "product" becomes the more positive it gets,might be a brain thing.Take the fun yt clip I posted above, that boy goes to school with my grandson and has gone from quiet boy to school celeb.This could get him to learn an instrument/mix whatever. What you don't want is someone coming in too soon and showing him all that's wrong with it.Wrong handling or snobbery could push him away from a potential passion/career.As peoples ears are educated their taste changes,stuff I was passionate about in my teens is only of nostalgic value now.
      Just tried to think of a genre/style where I could say yes never heard anything from that sphere that was any good,but I couldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:02 AM

"Actually, the song goes to E7 because it's the dominant chord in the relative minor."

Well, yes, because the next chord is A minor. On the circle of fifths, they are next to each other--E and A--and any notes next to each other on the circle are harmonically related. So if you have CADG and want to vary it up, you find another harmonically related note to precede the A. E works because V resolves to I very nicely but E can't be minor because the A is already minor. You're just substituting the E as an alternate I.

"There is a D in the melody at that point which isn't in the I. I know this because I have been fooling with the chords to that song for the last 40 years;-)"

D is ii. What else can it be in the C scale?

"If it is dumbing down, it is dumbing down that was inspired by Phillip Glass, Steve Reich, Miles Davis, Stevie Wonder,"

Minimalism is a Zen concept of less is more. It has nothing to do with stripping things down to make them simple for simple-minded people any more than haiku is meant to be poetry for the mentally retarded. It's taking out the fluff and leaving the essence. Minimalist music and film are incredibly rich and nuanced. A film as "Samsara" is minimalist but is audially and visually far richer than the average Hollywood blockbuster. Below is a trailer:

Samsara trailer

"If it's "degeneration", remember that that's what they called Stravinsky."

When you can prove to me that Katy Perry or Eminem are in any way on the same level as Stravinsky I'll be happy to admit defeat. Well, I won't be happy--I'll be shocked. While you're at it, please prove to me that Miles Davis and Stevie Wonder are minimalists.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:57 AM

Still waiting for them to dumb down to my level.....

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 11:28 PM

Actually, the song goes to E7 because it's the dominant chord in the relative minor. There is a D in the melody at that point which isn't in the I. I know this because I have been fooling with the chords to that song for the last 40 years;-)

As for, "dumbing down" and "degeneration", Keep in mind that a lot of today's music is based on minimalism--which is is an aesthetic that repeats simple musical figures, rather that extrapolating from them. If it is dumbing down, it is dumbing down that was inspired by Phillip Glass, Steve Reich, Miles Davis, Stevie Wonder, If it's "degeneration", remember that that's what they called Stravinsky.

Given that, if you like melodies, and you like the classical ways of harmonizing them, and if you like the way that the great jazz arrangers managed to interlace melodic ideas with rhythmic ones, a lot of this stuff might not speak to you, and I do understand that. I keep a huge folder full of 78s on my computer for that reason.

Musical tastes change, which could be comforting if you hated disco, but painful if you love the Four Freshman. It may be cold comfort, but all the changes in music are initiated by musicians. Audiences just decide whether they like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:17 PM

Others may like today's pop but it's a slippery slope. Those others might be 12 yo who have no knowledge of or affinity to music. They buy it because it speaks to their pubescent angst (first kiss, dating scene, current fashions, etc) and often buy simply because other kids are. They could care less if the music is any good and, in fact, wouldn't know the difference. In truth, if the music was actually progressive, they wouldn't like it. Part of the appeal is that it is simplistic enough for them to understand.

That's fine except if that's lopsidedly where all the money is in the recording industry then all the other artists find themselves needing to appeal to it to have careers. This has been the trend for a few decades now and it is getting worse.

"Since the '50s, there has been a decrease not only in the diversity of chords in a given song, but also in the number of novel transitions, or musical pathways, between them. In other words, while it's true that pop songs have always been far more limited in their harmonic vocabularies than, say, a classical symphony … past decades saw more inventive ways of linking their harmonies together than we hear now. It's the difference between Carly Rae Jepsen's "Call Me Maybe" (2012), which contains four simple chords presented one after another almost as blocks, and Alex North's "Unchained Melody" (1955), which, though also relatively harmonically simple (it employs about six or seven chords, depending on the version), transitions smoothly from chord to chord due to more subtle orchestration."
--J. Bryan Lowder

You take a song like "I Can't Get Started With You" from 1936. It is written in a I-vi-ii-V7 scheme. It was done by countless jazz bands and singers--Anita O'Day, Bunny Berrigan, Ella Fitzgerald, Lester Young, etc. By the 50s, it had helped to give birth to doo-wop. How? Because doo-wop is very often I-vi-ii-V7.

Here's how to play "I Can't Get Started" barebones with your guitar:

Playing in C major in 4/4 time, play in the first bar Cmaj7 and Amin7. Then in the second bar play Dmin7 and G7. Third bar: E7, Amin7. Fourth bar: D7, G7sus. Fifth bar: Cmaj7, Amin7. Sixth bar: Dmin7, G7 with a flatted 9th. At this point, you hit a two-bar turnaround and go back to the first bar and repeat up to the sixth bar again.

Notice CADG--I-vi-ii-V. That's the same scheme used in so many doo-wops. But notice that in the third bar, we use an E7 rather than Cmaj7. Isn't E a iii in the scale of C and shouldn't it then be minor? No. E7 is used as a substitute for Cmaj7 and is technically still I in the scale. It throws a variation into the scheme so it doesn't become monotonous. In fact, I-vi is just an alternate ii-V. Doo-wop plays with that scheme in endless variations which is why it is so harmonically rich with only 4 voices.

Most pop songs since the 50s have opted for simple ii-V7 songs. A repeating bar rather than repeating every two bars. I think that's why Gene Vincent started combining rockabilly with doo-wop--it gave the rockabilly more variation and harmonic content. Just a small change in one chord would change the way the song sounded.

This is long gone in pop music today. So while we can say it still has value, we do have to concede that there has been some degeneration because all the artists that want to be big sellers have to "dumb down" their music for the sake of money/sales/profits. That does hurt us culturally speaking.

Someone mentioned Esperanza Spalding. She used to be jazz. Her first two releases were utterly brilliant. Her next two are not even jazz. She started turning into a pop diva. They want her to sing more and play less. Her bass lines have appropriately simplified. On her 4th CD, "Radio Music Society" her basslines can be played by anyone with two years of decent instruction. A far cry from the amazing basslines she was chunking off on those first two CDs that totally blew me away. It has made her a commercial success but at the sacrifice of her creativity.

Does that make me a snob to say all this? I don't think so but others might.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:39 PM

Stringsinger puts it where it is. I agree all the way.

Just because I may not like something doesn't mean it doesn't have value to someone else. If it didn't, it wouldn't be there. If I don't like something, it simply means that I don't like it. Maybe that's my loss,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 06:57 PM

I think that the element that guards against the exclusive attitude of snobbery in music is the willingness to investigate the various musical forms. Each form and style has within it, its own value system and expertise that can't be compared with other forms successfully. Oranges and apples.

You don't have to like certain forms of music to understand and perhaps appreciate what it is that they offer. I don't like Schoenberg but I appreciate that he was a great musician and disciplined artist.

I'm not crazy about rap either but I see a kind of value in its story-telling approach to reflect on urban African-American life.

Hard rock and metal require a certain willingness to set aside personal likes and dislikes to understand the kind of musical approach of a Jimmy Page, for example.

The most identifying feature of a musician in my opinion is an open mind toward investigating all kinds of music and seeing how the styles interact with each other.

I'm no David Bowie fan but I absolutely love what Esperanza Spalding does with his music.

I'm no Dylan fan either but I enjoy others renditions of some of his songs.

Musical snobbery is a dead-end street. Musical preference is understandable and personal. The music itself has its own world and if you don't like it, fine, but you might make an effort to understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,guestlexic
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 02:26 PM

Some raps alright!.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFBoeZm7-u4 great thread/read btw

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 01:45 PM

Have you watched the "Silver Apples of the Moon" link? It's utterly mesmerizing.

As far as snobbery goes, there was a time when avant-garde was regarded by classical patrons as horrible noise. I would regard Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" as avant-garde and it caused a riot the night it debuted in Paris. People were outraged because the music and dance were so obscene and animalistic. It didn't have enough melody, damn it! Nowadays, classical music includes much of the avant-garde. You can buy "Rite of Spring" in any Barnes & Noble with a small classical CD section (because I did).

Now, the snobbery has become internal to the music. Read the comments on the Density 21.5 link: "She's playing too fast" "She's playing too slow" "She's playing too mechanically" "She's not playing mechanically enough" "She's playing with too much passion that the pieces wasn't mean to have" "It's too fluid" "It's not fluid enough."

That's what I've always hated about the classical scene and why I prefer to hang out with the jazz set. I've met more jazz people who can play classical music than I ever have the reverse. Of course, most jazz musicians are classically trained and cut their teeth on classical pieces. I played Bach and Chopin until my fingers literally bled. I love classical music but I don't love the stuck-up scene. Don't get me wrong, a lot of classical music lovers are fine people and I have a lot of friends and contacts among them but I got so sick of some ass telling how I played this passage wrong and that it wasn't in the spirit of the composer and that I spoiled the mood the piece was meant to evoke and blah blah blah. "Well, perhaps then, you could show me how Mozart intended for that passage to to be played" and you find out the asshole doesn't even play an instrument or they play stinking.

At least in jazz, they pride themselves on never playing anything the same way twice. Classical fans fight to the death over the composer's instruction to play the piece "poco moto." They'll go around and around about what constitutes poco moto until a normal person is half-crazy from listening to it.

Folk is a bit more like jazz in that you're free to interpret a piece just about anyway you want to. Someone may not care for it but I don't have to hear "that line should be played andante and that doesn't sound andante to me!" And you don't see 8 yo kids being exploited to make money filling concert halls in the folk scene so that these kids are used up and strung out by the time they hit 21.

There isn't much difference between much of classical music behind the scenes and something from "Tiaras and Toddlers". It's the same thing--a popularity contest for children too young to understand how they are being exploited. I'm surprised, in fact, that no one has made a reality show like that. Call it--"So You Think Your Kid's a Virtuoso". I might even watch it to see the talent. But it ruins kids. Imagine being 9 years old and some grown-up is fawning all over you telling you how he has all your CDs and loves them all more than life itself and the only thing you had to do with those CDs is that they shuttled you in to the studio to record your playing and then shuttled you back out once they were done with you. Your whole life is playing, recording, traveling, playing, recording and traveling. I've known adults who couldn't take it. Imagine being a child on the chitlin circuit. The circuit of snobs--half of whom love you for know fair reason and the other half hates you for no fair reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 12:34 PM

I can be prejudiced, as old people often stick to what they know and love. I was in the car listening to Classic FM when Karl Jenkins' Mass For The Armed Man (the Sanctus) came on. At first I was tempted to switch it off, but very quickly I became captivated. That is music that blows your mind, it really is. One needs to listen and experience different forms of music with an open mind. It's nice to expand your tastes and enlarge your knowledge. Snobbery doesn't come into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 12:30 PM

On a minor point of pedantry, Harry Partch developed his 43-tone scale as an alternative to what he regarded as the abomination of the 12-tone tempered Western scale. Indeed, the only of his instruments designed to play the 43-tone scale were his retuned harmoniums and his adapted guitars & violas. His mathematics were Pythagorean, taken to extremes so that he could use pure intervals that you couldn't find in Western music. His music otherwise is perfectly 'tonal', though his writing for voice was concerned with the 'intonation' of the vernacular spoken voice rather than with singing per se, but a lot of it is surprisingly tuneful and folksy. Here's his setting of various hitch-hiker inscriptions collected from graffito during his travels which is infused with the humour and playfulness of his admittedly eccentric genius. The spoken voice here is Partch himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRXDYgYQYXM

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:21 AM

I did a bit of a disservice by posting only electronic pieces. Avant-garde does NOT have to be electronic. There are a huge number of avant-garde compositions for conventional instruments and orchestras. Often conventional and non-conventional are mixed in orchestras.

Varese composed a piece for orchestra that utilized a rope being pulled through a hole in a fiberglass tub. George Antheil's "Ballet Mecanique" from 1915 featured door buzzers and airplane propellers among the orchestra. In fact, I believe that Antheil vehemently insisted his composition was NOT avant-garde. Charles Ives wrote avant-gard pieces for orchestras as did Harry Partch who also wrote simply for voices and who created his own instruments so he could compose in microtonal scales.

Below is an avent-garde piece written by Varese for the flute. He wrote it for a friend to commemorate his new platinum flute. Varese entitled it Density 21.5 which is the density of platinum. Not infrequently, you'll hear the more adventurous souls tackle it at flute recitals.

Density 21.5

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:39 AM

"[For some reason, I can't put all these links in one post.]"

The reason for that is you are posting as a Guest. That was explained to me a few moons back when I was attending to some stuff in unanswered requests. Just the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:16 AM

"Can't a person dislike something without being called a snob?"
Says it all really.
It seems to me more than a little insecure in your own preferences to suggest that people are "snobs" because they don't share them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 05:21 AM

But we still get stuff posted like:-

Suggest you put the quotes back in the context of what I said - and what I said back in the context of the discussion - instead of trying to score points for folkish smuggery - a very different thing to musical snobbery, especially as (and I quote) the heart & soul of the thing (Harry Cox - Harry Smith - Sproatly Smith) is every bit as dynamic & energising & inspirational & unmelodiously filthy as hip-hop. Ta!

*

Avant-garde music has little to no melody or rhythm but is pure art.


Worth mentioning here is late Daphne Oram (31 December 1925 – 5 January 2003), the unsung & unlikely mother of UK electronica (& more besides) who's work teetered on the brink of experimentalism owing to its very nature but remained nevertheless rooted in more (dare I say) traditional idioms both classical & popular whilst anticipating a lot of future developments. Her 'Oramics Machine' typifies both the brilliance & eccentricity of her genius, and her music is never less than as perfectly charming as she was - both are the very epitome of Englishness. Lots of clips on YouTube - including the famous 'Snow 1963' film in which she had a hand (certainly you'll find the soundtrack on most Oram collections) as well as the truly stunning 'Four Aspects', the quaintly spooky 'Dr Faustus Suite' and the unsettlingly brilliant 'Bird of Parallax' which weaves electronic sounds & rhythms with orchestral samples and field recordings long before anyone even dreamt of the term 'psychedelic'. Certainly I doubt Ms Oram touched anything stronger than a tawny port in her life.

A brief overview of her work & significance: Daphne Oram, the unsung pioneer of techno

Also on YouTube is a Radio 4 documentary on Daphne Oram entitled 'We Have Also Sound Houses' - a quote taken from here:

We have also sound-houses, where we practise and demonstrate all sounds, and their generation. We have harmonies which you have not, of quarter-sounds, and lesser slides of sounds. Divers instruments of music likewise to you unknown, some sweeter than any you have, together with bells and rings that are dainty and sweet. We represent small sounds as great and deep; likewise great sounds extenuate and sharp; we make divers tremblings and warblings of sounds, which in their original are entire. We represent and imitate all articulate sounds and letters, and the voices and notes of beasts and birds. We have certain helps which set to the ear do further the hearing greatly. We have also divers strange and artificial echoes, reflecting the voice many times, and as it were tossing it: and some that give back the voice louder than it came, some shriller, and some deeper; yea, some rendering the voice differing in the letters or articulate sound from that they receive. We have also means to convey sounds in trunks and pipes, in strange lines and distances.

Francis Bacon, from New Atlantis, 1637.

The Tradition of musical vision & experimentalism is indeed an old & venerable one!

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:33 PM

And let's go one more. This one should be heard with surroundsound speaker and lots of bass.

Tod Dockstader worked with tapes and oscillators prior to full synths being made. This is a piece from 1961. Dockstader also the did the sound fx for the Tom & Jerry cartoons.

Apocalypse II

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:30 PM

[For some reason, I can't put all these links in one post.]


An early Moog synth composition by Morton Subotnik.

Silver Apples of the Moon

Edgard Varese's masterpiece that he made with visuals supplied by the Belgian architect Le Corbusier.

Poeme Electronique

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:26 PM

Avant-garde music has little to no melody or rhythm but is pure art. To dismiss it as "stupid" noise made by talentless hacks is the same as saying that because Picasso or Ernst or Pollack or Mondrian didn't try to render photograph-perfect real images, they too were talentless and stupid. Classical and jazz composers and musicians have drawn endless inspiration and ideas from avant-garde pieces. Most of vinyl and CDs of avant-garde were purchased at stores that specialize in classical music because few others will stock them.

The guy who did the music for Looney Tunes was Raymond Scott whose band was primarily jazz and classical. Scott, however, was primarily and avant-garde artist who invented his own electronic keyboards and music machines. He hired an assistant one day to help him. The assistant was skilled at building theremins--a strange electronic instrument used for sound fx in movies and TV but which was a serious instrument (see Clara Rockmore). The assistant was so overwhelmed by Scott's devices and knowledge that he went into making synths. His name was Bob Moog.

John Cage with a very early tape collage from 1952. An example of musique concrete:

Williams Mix

Milton Babbitt composition performed on the enormous RCA Mark II synthesizer housed at the Columbia-Princeton Electronic Music Center:

Occasional Variations

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:32 AM

""And it's ridiculous that so many people just denigrate *all* new music...there's a lot of good stuff about still, admittedly mostly not in the charts....but it was ever thus.""

Absolutely true, just as it is ridiculous that so many people just denigrate *all* folk music...there's a lot of good stuff about still, admittedly mostly not in the charts....but it was ever thus.

But we still get stuff posted like:-

""It's as Folk is a byword for cultural intolerance born, no doubt, from other deep-seated insecurities. Weird given that of all the diverse idioms of Western Popular Music, Folk is the most universally reviled. Go figure!""

or:-

""I'm the biggest musical snob there is, but (mostly) I get on with it in the privacy of my own ivory tower, though this gets difficult in the Radio 2 sucky-blanket realms of Folk Muzak,""

Of which the first seven words have an air of credibility.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM

I really think you've got to allow for the fact that the music we're inclined to dismiss as crap had a lot of value at the time. I mean - I sit in TERROR watching those old TOTP episodes which goes from the sublime (Bob Marley) to the ridiculous (Brotherhood of Man) in the blink of eye - BUT - someone must have loved this stuff. On another level, I think we must be thankful for it. Without such MOR Schlager there'd have been nothing the underground to kick against - this was (I think) as true in the UK as it was in Germany. Number One the day I was born was You Don't Know by Helen Shapiro; recorded that same year - John Coltrane at The Village Vanguard and The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra.

It takes all sorts...

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:14 AM

....Here, Ron, from 2004, is a rap video that you might actually like. I posted it then, but I'll do it again, it's a message from Marshall, who they call Eminem...Slim Shady's October Surprise

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 09:03 AM

Allen Conn:"But listening to the top 40 of the year a few years ago sure drove home the point that our pop music was light years beyond the current crop."

It can also be exaggerated though as to how great things were 40 years ago. Lot of good stuff about then but a lot of less impressive stuff too. We've been watching the old repeats of TOTP since they stared showing them last year at 1976. Skip through most of it as it is pretty dire. Plus there is some good stuff about now too. Just because it doesn't get in the charts doesn't mean it isn't there. Kids nowadays also have easy access to so much. Much more than we did.

Exactly! As someoneelse said, our parents probably said the same thing when we were listening to stuff in the 60s and 70s. There was an *awful* lot of crap about back then....it's just that we only remember/ replay the stuff that's stood the test of time.

And it's ridiculous that so many people just denigrate *all* new music...there's a lot of good stuff about still, admittedly mostly not in the charts....but it was ever thus. The stuff I was listening to in the 60s and 70s was rarely in the charts and my parents had no idea of its existence....in much the same was as those above denigrating all modern music or idioms are almost certainly unaware of the majority of what youngsters are listening to these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 06:45 AM

(Sic)

You point out a typo on Mudcat and accuse me of snobbery???!!!

Well - okay - yes - it's a fair cop, Guv! I confess - I'm the biggest musical snob there is, but (mostly) I get on with it in the privacy of my own ivory tower, though this gets difficult in the Radio 2 sucky-blanket realms of Folk Muzak, especially when the heart & soul of the thing (Harry Cox - Harry Smith - Sproatly Smith) is every bit as dynamic & energising & inspirational & unmelodiously filthy as hip-hop.

Now back to my daily labours which today are accompanied by the music of Juan del Enzina (sic) as interpreted by the maestro Jordi Savall.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 06:22 AM

""So stick to what to (sic) know - which judging by your posts here isn't so very much, eh?""


And speaking of musical snobbery...........!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 05:11 AM

Very serious. It's a serious matter - this persistent worrying over music by people who can neither understand, hear or appreciate it, but nevertheless feel themselves qualified to hate. Hip-hop has been the most vital, inspirational & energising idiom of popular music for the last 30 years & more - subjectively speaking that is - I first started hearing it around 1980 and have been constantly startled & delighted by it ever since. I tune into Tim Westwood and I'm amazed afresh each time. The Celebrities come and go, but that's in the nature of a collective Tradition of a music, and its people, which rolls on regardless, innovatively, inspirationally and internationally.

Judging the beauty, craft, genius, virtuosity and vibrancy of a music by such evidently limited musical standards only hints at deeper cultural prejudices. So stick to what to know - which judging by your posts here isn't so very much, eh?

Meanwhile, back in 1994, Digable Planets were grooving with Wah-Wah Watson and Lester Bowie as part of Red Hot & Cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkqDmuEmqmo

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 07:13 PM

This is of course on the off-chance that the poster was actually serious in what he said--not that sarcasm has ever been seen on Mudcat.   Of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 07:10 PM

Sorry, "I wept at...".    Certainly don't want to misquote the illustrious poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 07:06 PM

Yup. Perfectly crafted, all right.   For somebody who can't do anything without a studio to twist dials in and who seems to have a problem with English--or at least keeps falling into the gutter.   Also interesting how the "tough guy" facade collapsed when Taylor Swift, of all people, caught him being (probably typically) stupid on some high-profile broadcast.

"made me cry"    The poster must be a pool of tears every time he turns on the radio.   Pobrecito.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:45 AM

People who denigrate music that others enjoy are snobs.

Idiots more like! This has to be one of the most depressing threads I've read here for too long a while. It's as Folk is a byword for cultural intolerance born, no doubt, from other deep-seated insecurities. Weird given that of all the diverse idioms of Western Popular Music, Folk is the most universally reviled. Go figure!

As for the dreaded 'Rap Music' (you guys kill me) the first time I heard this I wept at the perfectly crafted beauty of the thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6CJQ_hnm24

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:58 PM

Ah yes, and "In your face" is wonderful.    The perfect self-parody.    I only hope it was meant to be so crude and stupid as to be a parody.   I trust this is so.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:53 PM

Finally got around to "some melodic hiphop".    Much better than I expected.--mostly since the "artist" seemed to be parodying folk dancing, the song "Buffalo Gals", and hip-hop itself.   And as I just noted, for a sense of humor I'll forgive almost anything--certainly the use of the 4 minutes of my life I will never get back.

Also appreciated that the body count was relatively low.


But "melodic"?    Somebody who swallows that must have had his ears shot off in the war. Somehow I don't think Mozart, Schubert--or Gershwin--need be very concerned about the new competition.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:37 PM

"Cars in Cairo" is great. But it seems poetry rather than rap music--where's the dominating thudding bass? And the sense of humor plays a role--as I've noted before, humor goes a long way to offset any perceived sin.   Give me humor over outrage any day.


But unfortunately commercial "rap artists" seem to specialize in the latter, not the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:23 PM

"the artist"    Commercial rap singers.    Seems to be a contradiction in terms.

They're out for success, for all the trappings that go with it--and especially the money.
Tell me they are expressing their souls.    It's remarkable how conveniently expressing your soul can be done by denigrating women, attacking the police and glorifying weapons and crime. With no requirement to be able to carry a tune.    But you might be advised to carry an automatic weapon, since your fellow artists may take umbrage at something you say or do.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 02:03 PM

'People who denigrate music that others enjoy are h

People who denigrate other people for the music they like are snobs. But saying you think some music is no good isn't snobbish, though it may well be unwise or plain wrong-headed.
............
'. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between lack of stage experience and lack of sufficient practice (or skill) to be able to play the song competently and remember the words.'

No it isn't much of the time. Inexperience makes people come to pieces sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM

no one says you have to like everything. But there are often virtues in music that you don't appreciate -its a bit like modern painting. It is an area of activity that someone has devoted their life to.

You may not get it. But it doesn't mean it is without substance and the artist is not deserving of a measure of respect.

How deep that measure is, is up to you. As the audience, you do the artist the courtesy of listening. How much courtesy he is entitled to, is also up to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:27 AM

"getting up on stage anyway".   I have to say I disagree. When somebody gets on stage for the first time, that person is bound to be nervous. (In fact that never goes away completely, not matter how many times you perform--it's just less).   So the performance is probably not going to be as good as it was at home.   I think anybody who wants to perform--and has memorized what he or she is doing-- should be supported.    If they are reading it off a sheet, my support goes down dramatically.   Sure it would be nice if everybody in a singaround carried off a song without a hitch.   But that's not a reasonable requirement.

As far as I'm concerned, more power to the beginners.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:18 AM

Playing 2nd kazoo with PDQ Bach and the National Symphony in the Kennedy Center concert hall was a truly amazing experience.    He sure does have a great dry sense of humor--on or offstage.

And they gave me a contract (admittedly all the verbiage about the Kennedy Center having exclusive rights to my services in the area, in preference to any other venue which might be salivating at the prospect of getting my expertise, was crossed out. )    But they did pay me $100.    I can't recall what the arrangement with the musicians union was, but I was listed as a guest soloist.    Maybe if you're a guest soloist you don't have to be in the union.   I meant to frame the contract but forgot to do it.   But it's somewhere in the house.

And they gave me a fancy kazoo for the occasion.

It must have been really something to see when 180 choristers in bathrobes and carrying toothbrushes came on stage at the Concert Hall As a guest soloist, I unfortunately had to wear a tuxedo.   But that sacrifice was worth it--to put it mildly.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: John P
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:13 AM

People who denigrate music that others enjoy are snobs. All musical genres are rife with snobs. I hear it a lot from classical music fans, and from classical music non-fans. The jazz scene is terrible in this way. I hear it regularly on Mudcat about traditional folk music and about non-traditional folk music, and about folk music versus almost anything else. There's a lot of it going on in this thread.

I think the only way that I'm a musical snob is that I don't like to see people who aren't ready to be on stage getting up on stage anyway. There is often an attitude in the folk music community that everyone gets to share and that everyone needs to get a start some time. I disagree. I think people should stay at home until they're ready to perform. Yes, everyone needs to start performing sometime, and I'm very supportive of people who have done their homework and are showing it off for the first time. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between lack of stage experience and lack of sufficient practice (or skill) to be able to play the song competently and remember the words.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 07:44 AM

Mark Twain was quoting when he put that sentence on paper in his autobiography. It's supposed to be from a man called Edgar Wilson Nye. Of course he might have taken it from someone else.

Any number of good quotes seem to come from people you've never heard of. They get attached to famous people, I imagine because that's a way of giving them some extra authority. There have been lots of great remarks by Mudcatters over the years. If any of them ever get to be famous quotes, don't expect them to be ascribed to the people who originated them.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:49 AM

A good introduction to Wagner is his "Rienzi" overture.

Alternatively, you could have Elmer Fudd singing "Kill the wabbit!"...

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: JennieG
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:27 AM

The two quotes on Wagner were supposedly said by Rossini and by Mark Twain - Wagner

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:15 AM

well crafted rap - look no further than Yorkshireman Nic toczek. he has done Punk, rap, new wave - been a brilliant children's author and gigs all over the world. His work is routinely stolen by millionaire popstars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9nrSoYuEvg

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:31 AM

""It bothers me if they are thought to be elites..because it is a form of stereotyping that is railed against by most thinking people. Frankly, I am sick and tired of being referred to as an elitists because I like certain things.""

Try reading the whole of my posts, in which I made mention of the genuine lovers of Opera and Classical music, the kind of people who attend the Proms (of which, I am one and can well believe you are also).

My reference was to the kind of people who would close off, by price, access to what they consider their exclusive property. If you haven't seen and heard them, you haven't been looking or listening.

They are much in evidence when Arts Council funding is discussed, yet, no matter how much is awarded, seat prices remain way out of reach for people like me.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 04:47 AM

Re Wagner. Sitting through the whole of The Ring would be too much for me, but the Ride of the Valkyrie ... When I'm angry or feeling low, I put this on in the car ( I have a Classic FM CD of favourites) at full belt. I have a good music system in my little Fiesta. My word, that piece of music has my heart leaping in two seconds. As to the latest 'Hits' I regularly catch up on them on TV and find myself liking many. I used to adore the fifties and sixties Hits, but today's stuff is just as good, only different. And the accompanying videos are often excellent. No-one surely could call me a 'snob' for liking a bit of Wagner, or 'low-class' for enjoying Ri-ri or Beyonce.
As to the folk who go to Glyndbourne, are people jealous of their wealth perhaps? Because many of them have a bob or two. That doesn't make them 'snobbish', just rich! What I don't like (and other posts have said the same thing) is any type of music performed badly. We all have a right to judge the merit of any performance. That isn't snobbery either.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 04:17 AM

There are only two types of music in the universe: the first is the music you can hear, the second is the music you can't. This is the same for each and every one of us. The wise man rejoices in the former, and leaves the latter well alone.

The wise man also understands this - that no one music is inherently superior to any other, for they are all the product of 50,0000 years of individual & collective creative Genius which gives rise to a plethora of Musical Traditions & Traditional Musics every single one of which provide the same subjective joy and empowerment to those who love and understand them but fail to engage the passions of those who don't.

Overall this phenomenon is called TASTE - it's about whatever floats your boat.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 11:27 PM

PDQ Bach is just great stuff.   I don't think New Horizons in Music Appreciation (Beethoven's 5th, first movement, broadcast as a baseball game) has ever been bettered in the field of musical humor.   That whole album, PDQ Bach on the Air, is just spectacular--skewering everything from Baroque music to sports broadcasters, to call-in shows. And the more you know about music, the more you appreciate PDQ Bach.


I was lucky enough to be able to play 2nd kazoo in a live performance of a PDQ Bach concert, with the Maestro conducting.    But the first kazoo got all the glory. Curses, foiled again.

Peter Schickele asked us what we normally wear for a concert.    We said tuxedos. But for this concert we wore bathrobes.